In all fairness, the entire world setting is nothing like it was when the TT book came out.

Seriously, if you ever find a copy of a 1st edition book, especially one like Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America, you will wonder if you're playing the same game. When a book tosses off figures like the United States having a 50+% unemployment rate in areas and that violence is so endemic that it is almost beyond calculation as casually as the book does, then you really have to wonder how it is that Shadowrun became a shinier, happier, lamer place once "fans" started writing for the line.

The UCAS, you mean? Well, I'd think you'd have more than 50% unemployed in places like Chicago, or Redmond. Crime does not count as an occupation, for all I know. the casual violence is down, though, yes. The setting generally has gotten more mature and less ... 80s action flick.

Some 2nd Edition books are downright creepy reads nowadays though. Especially Tir na nOg. Conceived as an eco radical pseudo democracy, it is scarily similar to many modern EU nations. Depressing how such changes happen and you not really notice.

No. The United States of America.

During the late 90s. This was how badly the U.S. was failing (but still salvageable according to the book, which says a lot) when the Teamsters' strike happened which led to the Seretech incident.

No one knows or cares about SR's history anymore, which is a crying shame because the history made the game actually mean something as opposed to adding cyber and magic to 2009.

Oh. Well, if the Big Three collapse, Detroit could reach some 50%, I guess. But yeah, that's a bit ... much. Except if "some Regions" are tiny places which depend on one employer entirely.


If you mean the popular retconning to 'keep up with current events', then I am with you (if not, please explain).

Hey, Hermit..quick questions:
How long did the Universal Brotherhood plot play out?
How soon did you know they were really all possessed by bug spirits?
How were they portrayed in the sourcebooks leading up to the Cermak Blast?

Some five, six years. I'd have to look up.


Their exact nature wasn't revealed, but we got a glimpse in the very first shadowrun short stories anthology, into the shadows. Also, 2XS was among the first novels released, and Euphoria was another hint that there is something ... bugging people ... about the brotherhood. Also, even in London and Seattle sourcebooks, there were people expressing worries about the brotherhood, and everybody agreed there was something creepy going on there, because there had been a plethora of hints.

They weren't wrapped up until Bug City, but were a known threat very early on. Horizon? Not so much.

err, there is a TM missing right now, and another trying to locate him.

while the first connection seems to be a old ghost from post-crash2.0, stuff like that can be bent all over the place in later writings.

its what JMS called writing trapdoors. stuff like that can be taken in just about any direction, as needed.

then there is examples like the spider-man clone saga. the original writer left marvel before tying it all up, and with no notes on how it should end. the result was a gordian knot that was only "solved" by bringing a old villain back from the grave...

... totally unrelated to Horizon, or did I miss something about Horizon being involved with Pax and her newly founded Ex Pacis 2.0?

Well, you are missing the last page of Emergence where it dictates that Pulsar (with Horizon) is launching his secret war with the ARM of GOD to take on rogue AIs and matrix threats. The reason it's secret is to prevent an all out war between the meat and machine. Sounds like a pretty big hint cleverly placed in a small package in the last column of the last page where people have more than likely stopped reading.

Has nothing to do with Ex Pacis, unless the authors are recyceling a plotline they meant to shoot down with this senseless, unnescessary crash of 64 (Ex Pacis and the dissonance). Would fit, though, since Pulsar has regrouped the Overwatch group.

But, Pulsar and his Technomancer army of Lawful-Good paladins fighting for good in the Matrix while the Justice League aka Dawkins Group is fighting for justice in the meat and magic world is not exactly a dirty secret. It just makes Horizon even more of a shiny, oh-so-goody-good LG corp of Helm's Blessing.

So in effect, you have proven my point that Horizon is forced into the setting as the 'Good Guys', and will not stop being so clean they outshine the sun.

there may be no spelled out or hinted connection, but nor is there a similar disconnect.

so the writers have a open option to include them.

An option Synner has stated that is not planned to be implemented, but alas, we will not agree there, so let's agree to disagree?

Good? Never. However, it is pretty standard in SR. Look at the crap with Ghostwalker for the most extreme example, but also consider how Lofwyr seems to get away with Darth Vader-style management so freely...

Sadly, SR plot points are warped by exposure to GDs and IEs, often to absurdly bad extremes.

Ghostwalker is something I very rarely think about, to be honest. And Lofwyr gets away wit this the same way Mugabe, Kim Jong Il, and their likes, get away with it, by being head of his own state.


So the solution is to warp them towards Lawful-Good Google and it's shiny army of technomage and AI paladins? At least, the IE and GD never pretended to be good guys.

No. I'm not arguing with you - I think that Horizon is portrayed as a bit too shiny right now. However, that doesn't really bother me. I've been known to play up the positives of corps like Aztechnology, and it won't be hard for me to likewise crank out some dark stains for Horizon if I find the need.

Hestaby? Dunklezhan?

The Anasazi have been thwarting Horizon in the Mojave. There's still plenty of Humanis in Fun City hating Horizon. Think about that: Horizon owns Fun City and they can't get rid of Humanis.

Dunkelzahn was grey, not white. While he wants to keep the Horrors in Horrrorland, he has no qualms about using metahumans as cannon fodder or killing them to make a point (PoaD). And Hestaby is running a brainwash center and trading metahumans as snackswith other dragons, metahumans that have come to her looking for aid. Hestaby is creepy and dangerous, only she is not a snarling, hissing menace, but slow working poison. These two are not Darth Vader, but they sure are not good guys either.


Apparently, their Media Blitz spell is not omnipotent, yes. Wow, talk about dark secrets. Also, the Anasazi have been thwarting PCC troops, not Horizon. Who stands to win if the PCC loses it's grip? Check the Horizon and the PCC chapter in CE for details.

Both pretended to be good guys. Plus, Horizon and Hestaby are working together in the Tir! And then you point out how Horizon might be trying to collapse a nation for it's own good... How is that Lawful anything!

But look at the Spaceport in CE to see what I'm talking about with the Anasazi and Horizon.

(edited)

But weren't, really, and we were told so.


No, take it over and turn it into Paradise. From all we have in fluff as well as game info, that's what Horizon is up to.


Will do. Though, wasn't that Space Port operated by all Megas and situated in Africa?

As opposed to adding cyber and magic to 1989? The only SR history ret-conning is population numbers and those have never been consistent (see NAGNA and compare it to CFS). The current devs work very hard to keep the universe as seamless as possible. Even when what was written by previous developers is ridiculous and/or inconsistent.

And nation building, if that's what's really going on, is considered a Lawful Good (your words) activity? That's a pretty bizarre interpretation of events. The Tir was already a paradise. An exclusive, racist paradise, but one none the less.

Horizon's corrupt just like every other organization in the Sixth World. They go about their business differently from what we've seen of the other corps and governments. Manipulating public perception to fit an agenda is just as vile as yanking out hearts.

EDIT

Not nation building, mediablitzing a paradise into existence.


A paradise? Where do you get that from? If so, a more racist scnadinavia would be paradise. Actually, Scandinavia would be paradise. Well, I doupt many scandinavians will agree.


Faking Polls is a vile as opening the gates to hell? Seriously?

Creating a mental paradise is what the machines in the Matrix tried to do... Were they the good guys? Oh Brave New World that has such people in it...

The machines had non-altrusitic motives for their actions (subdue the humans/must kill humans, like all good killbots). Horizon, none shown. All other megas have darkness within them besides petty white collar crime and poll manipulation, Horizon has not, and is even moderate there, prefering to just go with the flow and enhance it as they move (or mediablitz people to see the Light of Righteousness when they attack poor would-be PC options for little slights like wanting to wipe out life on earth, despite them having fluffy icons).

You can of course imagine things. I know I do. My favourite is that Horizon is run by some Horror who uses the artistic energies of it's employees as sustenance.

But this has zero support in cannon material. It is house rules. It is NOT what the devs apparently want Horizon to be.

So to you, it's the methods (language, education and media manipulation) and motives (which we don't know) that make something good or evil? To me, it's the result, this so-called paradise, which is more than evil enough... No other corp is trying to turn the world into anything in this manner. It screams AI agenda... And did you just call a "house rules" on fluff? LOL, man.

No, it's the goals and means. And neither has Horizon enslaved all of humanity as vat-enchaseed prisoners in consensual hallucination, nor does it cover the world with war and destruction, like the Matrix cheese bots did.


A country where everyone agrees to have a positive outlook, put aside their differences and work for a better future in peace is evil? I guess you think hell is populated with kitten, then?


There is no word for self made fluff extensions that I could think of.

Where does it scream AI agenda? They have the Justice League on their side and are fighting AI that are a threat to humanity! Canonically, that is their big dark secret. Is Superman evil? Or Batman? Hardly, I'd say. The Dawkins Group isn't even the Watchmen, let alone the demon cult behind Aztech, the invae that take over Ares, or the monsters running NeoNet, Evo and Saeder-Krupp. It isn't even a brutal, racist and drug dealing, organlegging cartel, like with MCT, Shiawase, or Wuxing.

Horizon has no dark secret at all, by today's canon.

Since I'm allergic to cat dander, I'd have to say 'yes' on this one.


Not on the surface. What they're really up to - and how far they'll go to obtain their goals - has not yet been made clear.


The 'demon cult' is not Aztechnology. Aztechnology has elements that participated in such things, but the mainstream of the company is not involved and has taken steps to distance themselves from the horror-serving radicals. Aztechnology is a corporation that runs a government - everything it does is to these ends, not the other way around (i.e., it may do evil as necessary to increase its wealth and influence, but it doesn't increase its wealth and influence just to work more evil).


Fairly localized thing. The megacorp as a whole should not be seen as complicit in the acts of a fringe department.


Anyone can be a monster in the eyes of someone.


Links to a organized crime cartel are hardly a constant in these organizations. Despite popular belief, not everyone in MCT has yakuza connections, and the other corps you mention have even more shaky linkages with criminal organizations. Besides, if the criminal links were too high in these organizations, they would place more of the company at risk, and this conflicts with the interests of the megacorp (why be organized crime puppets and take such risks for far less than what your AAA megacorp can make legit?).


You're ignoring the possiblity that their secret is just much better hidden than some of the others. It appears you fell victim to the media blitz.

Yes, it has, see Corp Enclaves.


No, it just is the company's entire leadership.


It is Knight's pet project according to threats 2.


No, just the majority stockholders and the upper echelons.


Because crime pays and this is shadowrun, where a group of drug cartels can form a Mega and nobody bats an eye (Aztech, in that case). And apparenntly, it did not put the companies at risk. MCT and Wuxing being majorily owned by syndicates is canon, like it or leave it.


Yes, and all the hints to it are in our imaginations.

That was an overview of the Corp. It didn't cover what the Consensus was, so you can hardly say it was complete


It's not like some of the majority shareholders dislike blood-magic, after all.

Hint: Domingo Ramos, the R in ORO, dislikes blood-amgic and the Faction that uses it.



page quote? I just read through that secion, and Knight's name never came up



I just checked Corp Download, and it says something diffrent. While you are right about MCT working with the Yaks, Wuxing is not controlled by the Triads. It says that Wuxing contracts some shadow-work out to them, and some of the others Hate them.



What I think the problem is that you have a way more negitive view of most of the corps than the rest of us. I'm not saying that it's wrong, just a fundamental disconnect.

Sure? I might be wrong then.


I remeber them as being controlled, through the appropriate smokescreens, by Luung and his Hung Lung triad. I'll look this up.


No, I just take offense in how Horizon as the good guys is forced down one's throat, to the point they actually decree Horizon is popular among runners (CE). Also how they are a device to turn the setting upside down on AI, and taking away one of the few social drawbacks of Technos, which was introduced in a plot book, only to be dropped casually.

Not that Ramos doesn't have his own unsavory practices in the closet. Or rain forest, as the case may be.

Isn't it clear what evil thing Horizon has done? They have pissed in hermit's Corn Flakes!

The fact that there are so many theories in this thread about how Horizon might be evil brings a smile to my face. And I don't even like Horizon that much (except for the Dawkins Group).

Nope, Wuxing has some casual business with the Ten Thousand Lions, to whom they sell loads of Kong Chips (Hong Kong legal BTLs) so the Triads can smuggle them out of HK and sell them around the Pac Rim. Thats why the Yellow Lotus in Seattle is THE place to pick up BTLs and other chips of the profane and obscene...

As far as Lung and his Red Dragons? No connection. They might be involved in exploiting Wuxing's control of the shipping trade for smuggling their guns (read: corrupting low ranking dockyard laborers and supervisors) in Hong Kong, considering the Red Dragons control the docklands in Kwai Tsing, but it isn't at Wuxing's blessing, and certainly doesn't mean they are connected.

Yeah, and Wuxing is definitely not controlled by any Triad. If anything, it'd be more the other way around.

Until further material (read: CH), I'm pretty much ignoring Horizon completely.
Mostly for the reason that the number one PR company is Aztechnology.

Used to be, according to CE ...

CE doesn't sound that cut & dry about that matter.

"Offense"? Who is forcing anything down your throat? That wording makes it sound like this is turning into a personal affront for you.

Aztechnology still leads the world in public relations... between the company/culture itself and the general populace. Public Relations as a business is Horizon's area (along with information and software). There's a history of megacorps forming symbiotic/parasitic relationships with governments - Aztechnology with Aztlan (Mexico), Mitsuhama with Tsimshian and now Horizon with the Tir. This is nothing new.

Yes, runners like Horizon. Because Horizon Johnsons treat them well. But that isn't because Horizon is "good", it's because it sees the runners as hot-properties to be marketed (CE, pg. 37).

Personally I dislike Horizon and mostly make them go *POOF* in my game if the players don't go looking for them. Oh, and one of my player's character *HATES* them.

I'll actually wait until there is something to the company other than "We iz Mega-Good Guyz ya'll!" comes about so that there is actually some in game plot potentual involving them. But then, I run my game with Technos being still disliked (though tolerated) while AIs are both disliked and feared (with a small % really liking them or hating them).

One of these days, I'm going to have to run a one-shot Terminator game and just have the AIs raise up and begin taking the path of a popular game. [Need a hint? KaH]

Well, regions seems to suggest large metro areas. The key point was that the U.S. was on the verge of failing as an economy and a state, and things really got bad (Magic. Indians. The Crash. Oh my.)

And, yes, I mean the keeping up with current events nonsense, which isn't even done well. It's like Lagos in Feral Cities. Africa has more cell phones than landlines and is functionally as wired in the cities if not moreso than the United States (which is functionally in the stone age compared to the rest of the developed world, like Serbia [where Bruce Sterling may or may not still be living]), and the city has a spotty wireless Matrix? Nonsense, I say. Utter nonsense.


Clearly you haven't actually read anything from first edition. SR was for its time a shockingly original fictional world. I know some people complained a lot about Nigel Findley's books (since he wrote so many of the location books) as being unrealistic. Well, duh. It seems in retrospect that he was the only one in on the secret that they were creating a fictional game world and not writing speculative treatises on future politics. AMong those that seemed to have missed the secret include a fair number of writers who followed. Their idea of creative (as several SR writers wrote for it) is best exemplified by the rather unoriginal settings for the triStat game, Ex Machina.

But since Findley did write TT, going back to the original point, I always loved how much people complained about how hard or impossible or unrealistic or whatever TT was to run. Yeah. It's hard compared to Seattle, where runners were allowed to get away with anything. How dare a setting make them work to avoid the cops. Damn writers.

You could just as easily say "Damn players." Because, honestly, I remember back when I started freelancing for Shadowrun, a major complaint from players was an overabundance of setting material that the gamemasters considered "unplayable", because they weren't flexible enough settings for shadowrunning. Personally, I don't think that means every setting has to cater to shadowrunning (and some have said in another thread recently that Neo-Tokyo does not, which I'm fine with), but you can't really pin it all on the writers, there.

Considering I play by the books, yes, if the books flat out state "all runners trust Horizon" forces things on me as a player, yes.


Word.


Where is using footage from their runs in TV shows, plastering their mugs across the continent, treating them well? Yet the book says runners trust Horizon. Because of whatever.

When you get payed extra for it.

Simply set up 4 or 5 runner persona's, and swap them out as you need to. With Horizon Mediablitzing persona A all over the air, It's less likely to be connected with your other persona's.

And it says that where, exactly?

I'd search the truth somewhere in the middle. Compare Native American Nations with the Neo-anarchist Guide to North America. Of the later, Nigel Findley only wrote the Quebec chapter. When discussing the NAN books, people usually start complaining on the second line of every chapter (the one that read "Population : ..."). Still, there's a distinctive feature in this sourcebook that I fin enlightening regarding Findley's work : the historical backgrounds given often start in the XVIII or XIXth century. As I like to point out, back in 1990, writers could not just type "Nookta tribe" on Google and Wikipedia to see what went out.

The distinctive feature of SR is not speculative realism, nor shocking originality. SR universe relies on a more or less adequate dosage of documented facts, with the Awakening ultimately implying that no matter how well documented, it don't have to be completely realistic. It just wouldn't work if it completely dropped out any reference. It's somewhat up to the difference between saying "based upon real facts" and "realistic". I (still) play Shadowrun because I never ran short of background for a NPC or a corp even when I came out with from scratch in the middle of a game. I can fill the gap in the background or in an adventure with quick-and-dirty extrapolations from the numerous sourcebooks as well as the RL world. This may also play a role in the renewing of SR writers over twenty years (them being good or not is an entirely different question). I'm under the impression that most disagreements about SR background arise when this extrapolation mechanism cease to work for someone who then start with "I can't imagine..."

If you ask me, Horizon's a bad mix.

Sure, for years, Shadowrun background lacked remarkable media powers (Hisato-Turner anyone ? Truman Tech ? Ares is the most popular SR corps with players and GM, and I doubt a lot of them ever involved AGE in a game). But the very idea of a successful major media megacorporation somewhat implies it maintains a good rep (as a side note, SR rarely featured failing business, but I'll speak of that another time).

Then, Horizon has one big issue. Back in the days, you already had some people complaining about Wuxing and Cross jumping from the "not existing" category (background-wise) to the "top ten" over the course of four sourcebooks (Portfolio of a Dragon, Cyberpirates, Target:Smugglers' Havens and Blood in the Boardroom). Horizon made the same in two sourcebooks : SOTA:2064 and System Failure. I'm not saying those were "under the radar" or "barely known". They had no previous existence in SR background. At least, Cross and Wuxing have significant coverage profiles in PoaD ; the complete description of Horizon SOTA:64 gives (page 161) is "a media and PR firm called the Horizon Group [...] It owns New Line and Polyaural and is supposed to be savvy at image redesign and rebranding." Heck. System Failure barely says more. Next thing you remember, you opened your brand new 4th ed book and they sit on the Court. Literary rules for character development apply to corporations as well. Horizon received a boost, but it did not earn it (ergo the "Mary Sue" judgment). Cross and Wuxing went through a corporate war to get there. It's all about perception. Indeed, the writers are trying to make sense of their idea, develop and use it, and have GM and players using it. And they'll have a hell of a time removing that "teachers' pet" image. This is also marketing, somewhat.

And the result is this blurred line between Horizon's in-context marketing and writers' out-of-context marketing.

Had Horizon been a steel and copper business getting on the Court, people'd get over it. Had Horizon stayed a AA, we'd be wondering which prince is calling the shots in Tir Tairngire, and Corporate Enclaves would feature a few more page about Los Angeles proper. Bad mix.

Oh, and where did Lockheed go, damn ?

To reply to the first part of your post, Horizon having an excellent reputation in the shadows for fair dealing is not the same thing as "all runners trust Horizon." Second, it's important to keep in mind that isn't game information, that's an in-character judgment. Third, that section is written with a Los Angeles perspective.

The second part of your post I'm not really disputing. Horizon did come out of nowhere. And I don't really think that's been well-explained. It's not unheard of for corporations to come out of nowhere to become huge behemoths of industry (look at Horizon's obvious inspiration: Google), but usually they do it by revolutionizing the industry they excel in (Google with online search). If Horizon did that, it's not very clear.

Yeah, but you forget that there is 6 years of history missing from our time lines where Horizon could rise proper. I don't need a sequence of sourcebooks documenting what happened in those six years when the writers gave me the overall important facts summed up by "Horizon did really well and now sits on the court." It's not like it happened overnight, even by game terms. There's a large gap between 3rd and 4th edition, and we could make up a company X and dump them on the court and I'd be fine with it. At least they made mention of Horizon before the edition changeover.

Plus, one can't forget that Shadowrun does have that wonderful mix of realistic and historic background from which it draws its inspiration. Horizon is Google if you haven't figured it out. Google wasn't shit only 6 years ago. They had their IPO and bam, now it's one of the biggest and most important brands in America. I don't need much more convincing of Horizon doing it when stuff like that happens in RL with no questions asked.

Damn, you beat me by just a few minutes. Damn Wikipedia for getting me distracted reading about Google, Inc instead of posting...

Having Horizon own their asses. Right. What a good basis for a trusting relationship with the runner community.


CE p. 37 (never mind that at least I don't think anyone who wants to be taken on a run with a camera and films incriminating evidence on the runners is professional in the least, yet again, this is just stated and not refuted by anyone)


Horizon was in SOTA 64?


IIRC, the californian Lockheed assets were bought out by MCT as far back as in the Cali Sourcebook.


Then why is there no hint of criticism? Usually, Shadowtalk is there to offer different perspectives on a given subject (like Hestaby refuting accusations against her). 19 lines were wasted for agreeing posts. I think that's a message unto itself.


They had revoultionary technology, and emerged in an industry boom that right then went bust, and managed not to be dragged down with the rest of the hopefuls. They were incredibly fortunate to then siphon off the greedy, unrealistic investment policies of international banks who only now went belly-up, and their leadership was wise enough to invest the money in the company, rrather than blackjack and hookers, as was the ideal in the IT industry for the last few decades.

Google was incredibly fortunate and owes much of it's rise to sheer luck (and the rest to single-handedly inventing modern internet searches). Horizon was born under totally different circumstances and didn't invent anything. Google analogies fail because of this.

"Company men" are shadowrunners who basically have their asses owned by a corporation. Very common in 2070s New York City, for instance. It does not mean the company men trust the corporation they work for any more or any less, really. But they are compensated for their exclusivity. Essentially, Horizon has a different method for employing company men in Los Angeles. And so far, Horizon seems to have a good reputation for upholding their end of the "we own your ass" relationship.



That's how it is done by a number of runners in Los Angeles. It's totally expected that runners in Seattle wouldn't find this acceptable. Freelance runners in New York City (which is virtually a surveillance state) would find it ridiculous. But the write-up is on running in Los Angeles. It has its own way of doing things.



Probably because no one has any serious criticisms about working for Horizon yet. They are still new, though. For the most part, it's clear the shadowrunning community doesn't know what to make of Horizon yet. I don't think that means everyone trusts them, but they don't have any specific dirt to add yet.



Success in business always features some luck, but Google definitely had a revolutionary product that they could bank on. I agree with the criticism that it doesn't seem like Horizon has the same, unless it just hasn't been clearly explained yet.