I'm just getting to learn the rules. Their changing now??

only if one want to keep up with the books.

Mercurywave, If you do not have a base book yet, do yourself a favour and get yourself the pdf of SR4 Anniversary Edition. Not only are the rules more up to date, they also are a lot better presented, especially the Matrix rules.

No teaching the player that despite having a spell named Tri-D Phantasm or Improved Invisibility which is expressly designed to affect sensors that it does no such thing unless you're an IE or a GD.



I'd go with the First Aid thing. I would then optionally go with taking the divisor off Force for Drain, you'd have to tweak the +/- a little, perhaps a flat -3 across the board.

Karma-gen needs the racial mods taken out of the Attribute Improvement equation, Racial costs put back in and maybe 50 less karma, depending.

As you already know.

You have no auto success with that any more, so if you really mean it you need Edge. Yes, this takes those spells down a notch and actually makes the other, those that do not have sennsor effects, viable again, kinda. It rebalances. You may not like the way it rebalances because it nerfs your overpowered cheese mage, but it hardly is the end of the world.


This would nerf the human as a race again, which was what got many, many people upset in SR3 days. Why do you think that a better solution than making power trolls with maxed out everything more expensive than comparable humans?


How would not being able to patch drain away change anything when there is no drain to be had to begin with?

Also, the design goal was to nerf mages and technos a bit, as has been stated. I do not see how this is done with your proposed rules changes.

Thing is, IMO, it's nearly impossible to build a set of rules that 100% of the fanbase is happy with. Can you get a ruleset for a vast majority? Sure. Can you get a ruleset, that, every bit of it appeals to all people? I highly doubt it.

The magic change and the attribute change seem to be the top 2 discussions, with devices in third. This could have several reasons.

Devices are likely to affect people who play those characters often, and thus, they are more likely to be vocal about it.

Meself? I explained due to my less-common games, slower advancement just makes it downright stagnant. I also prefer raw potential vs. a ton of world-class skills, as it feels better to me, so attributes being more expensive does not gel with my mindset. Again, I find it easier to swallow a character with straight 4-5 attributes than I do a character with 3 skill groups all at 6, plus 3 more skills at 6+2. The die pool of a character with Attribute: 3 and Skill: 6 is the same as the character with Attribute: 6 and Skill: 3. I've met 22 year olds who could easily lift large amounts of weight in my time; yes, deadlifting the 90 kilo range just like in the book.(15kgxStrength for a deadlift off the ground without a test.) I have not, I don't think, met a 22 year old who was a rating 6 in anything. Now, it's not like I know hundreds of these people, but I certainly know more than I do said 22 year olds which, by RAW, would have a 6...which I said was probably none, or one if I think really, really hard and I squint.

Yeah, again, I try to keep too much real life out of my games, but sometimes it comes into play, and this is one of them.

Now, it seems that one reason why people prefer the skills higher is due to the amount of skills linked to an attribute. Some attributes have a lot of skill linked(Agility, Logic), while others have very few(Strength.) I always thought one option was to try to even out the amount of skills linked to each attribute, but this can become difficult as it raises some more issues. Changing costs raises other issues.

In the magic incident, it has raised yet other issues, with the whole overcasting bit(rather than making it worse to overcast, it makes it better to do so.) Some feel that the spells should be kept the same and overcasting is the thing that should be addressed as being harder, while others like these new changes. Some folks who don't have to deal with magic characters often don't think about these rules as much, but rather the tech rules, which they might deal with more in their games.

But again, I think what i'm trying to get at is that it's damn hard to make the 'perfect' system that everyone agrees on. Some didn't like the old Karmagen. Some, like myself, loved it. Others were fairly neutral.

Of course, the option to use any and all comes into play. I would, for example, if I used the new Attribute rules, give 1,000 Karma so I could approximate what the old characters were like, since they were around the power level we like to play at. (If the new RC errata gives around that much I'll be happier with it.) Between that and giving a bit more karma, we can pretty much get the games we like to play back on track with how we like to play them.

Same with magic; I suppose one can houserule rather easily that the Drain stays as is in SR4 original; and overcasting is subject to harsher Drain instead, if that's the problem.

Sometimes I wonder myself why I get a bit bent out of shape, because I know if I don't like a rule, it goes out the door. (We have our own houserule collection that works wonderfully for us-no Availability limits at chargen, when we used to use BP we made the last point 20 instead of 25 to make the math even, we use optional rules like old Adept geas, we allow people to start with higher-grade cyberware as long as they give us a small explanation. Our rules, basically, enable the people to make the character as closely as they have in their heads as possible. And again, we have very little powergaming-we make things so lenient there is no reason to, and the die pools stay even more balanced than Ive seen under strict systems...which, I know with myself, I tend to try to bend a lot more than a lenient system. I dunno why-it's just that the more freedom I have, the more balanced I become.)

But again, some tables have to deal with an onslaught of people who are rampant powergamers who try to milk every last drop from every die, and perhaps they enjoy changes to make their life easier. (I find it easiest to lay down a rule called ''don't be a douchebag'' and it usually gets the point across.) Tables whose mages tend to run rampant over every other character might like the new mage rules. Tables who have to deal with the Tech Squad in their facilities transforming Sony Emperors into 4x Fairlight Excaliburs and 2 Wal-Mart Walker Drones into Banshees armed with Thorshots in the first day of gameplay might like the new tech rules.

Yeah, sorry for getting long-winded again but it's true that you'll never please everyone with everything. As an avid video gamer as well it happens with videogames all the time when things change; I also play WoW and the changes that happen every patch has one side cheering and the other side screaming, only to reverse it come another patch. Any tabletop game that changes is also likely to have this.

Nice points about oldheads tending to be grumpier; i know in WoW a lot of the new players don't find patch changes nearly as frustrating as folks who have had their classes jerked about for the past three years.

Of course not. And 66% customer satisfaction (a little more if you factor in the "don't care' people as pro change) is not a bad number, given that.


Maybe your 22 year old weight lifter has an athletics skill of, say, 4, and not totally maxed out strength? Thing is, with the athletics group, it's hard to say where skill ends and attribute begins.


Speaking only for myself, who plays majorily tech oriented characters, I can live with those rules changes. With vehicles, the solution is to just integrate a commlink and hardwire the de-wirelessed vehicle node to it, using the new all-6 comlink as a gaateway (should I feel the need to make a vehicle all-6, that is). I do like the ruling on commlink modules becoming independent implants, since I always fou8nd tis totally murky in Unwired. And I also like that now, it actually makes sense to buy a staple high-end commlink, as opposed to pimping a Meta link to god mode.

I'm okay with that. It makes sense IMO to plug an optional book in the section of the BBB where one would go to look up that sort of information.

I can see though how it would grate on the folks who have been with the system a while too. They do stand out just a bit strongly.

Ultimately, I'm ambilivalent toward the ads. Makes sense. Hold no real strong opinion either way regarding them.

Pimping the little things, though, to some people, was the fun part. I always like the idea of the person who has their 'first toy' from the time they were young and building it up to the thing it is today which they still continue to use, which is one of the things I dislike about the new rules.


As for lifting, in RAW, lifting is not part of the athletics group. All lifting tests are Body+Strength, with Body only coming into play when trying to lift over your max Strength score. A person with 0 Athletics and a 6 Strength has a base lift of 90 kg off the ground, and if their body is, say, 4, they can add that to their Strength score to determine how much more they can do. A person with Athletics Group 6, Body 3 and Strength 3, can only deadlift 45kg off the ground, and roll a total of 6 dice to lift more, again by RAW. Unless a Lifting skill is added into the Athletics group, it does not help.

66% of customer satisfaction is indeed a good number; but 36% unsatisfied is not exactly a small amount in the grand scheme of things. Minority, yes, but not tiny by any means.

As for the whole bit with trid-phantasms and the like being unable to do what they are supposed to do, that kinda sucks. I mean, why even take the spells at that point? It's like someone wanting their character to have a gun that's good versus drones(since their character's whole team was say killed by a few drones in the past and they have some hatred for them, its just an example), and they get it, and are told ''oh yeah, it doesn't work versus drones, even though it used to.'' What's the point? And why is a mage cheesy who wishes to use a clever illusion to help bypass something? A hacker gets to hack in and do something to the devices. He could fail, or he could succeed. The mage could fail or succeed under the old rules, now, it's a miracle if he CAN succeed. What's so wrong about doing things several different ways?

I do wonder how many powergamers people here had to deal with in their time, since it seems like anything that gives a character a chance to do something with relative success gets denounced as powergaming. I'm not trying to talk down on anyone or anything like that, but I seriously am curious.

My quick opinion:

I've never gotten to play in a long, extended experience that allowed me to actually have karma to spend. So I really don't have an opinion on this. It does sound as though skill cost should have been lowered, but take mine with the grain of salt I gave above.

Also, willing to see what the errata has to say for Runner's Companion to see how it works out.

Drain: I can see what Synner was going for. No problem on my end.

As for the book, holy crap is that a nice layout Adam and I don't see any problem with the "advertisements" on the pages. Want to play a mage? Look, right in the section specifically talking about magic, they tell you about the book that expands on magic, with a pic of the cover and what's inside. Highly useful and I don't find it obtrusive whatsoever.

Dude you don't listen so good. It doesn't nerf my cheese mage. It nerfs normal folks non-cheese mages.




Why is the BP version not a nerf to humans? We're talking about fixing karma-gen here not in game advancement.



Try reading the second sentence where I suggest increasing Drain across the board.



Stated where?

Nothing prevents anyone from paying the cost for a new item, but stating that in game he's upgrading the old item (or reusing the case).

Actually it ist a good thig since all those books are already in print.
Usually in a core rulebook you find references that there ist more to come in future, the more i think about it, the more i like the ads

Now, that I could live with. The difference between a Sony Emperor and a Fairlight is only about 7300 nuyen, which isn't bad at all. It makes me wonder why the nerf was even needed, given the tiny price difference, but if I could do that I could live with it.

33%, unless Dumpshock has 103% members total ... also, you factor in people who prefer Muspell's system but could live with the proposed changes as well as those who could carfe less either way (whyever) into your naysayer camp. It's more like 20 to 27 % naysayer. And that is not such a horrible figure either, considering the fact the gaming culture generally is a conservative one suspicious of any change.


Well ... I kinda fail to suspend my disbelief enough to believe I could pimp my old ST1040 enough to run GTA 4 on it. But I see your point. Just, it never really made sense, and it gives the upper class stock links some degree of viability.


Knasser is right, these rules are seriously broken. Okay, see your point now. Problem is, thouzgh, that athletics (weight lifting techniques ect) should factor in there. Body is way overvalued anyway; how my immune system and general ruggedness, as oppoised to my muscle tonus, is supposed to determine the maximum armour is beyond me.


The wrong part is that the mage can do everything under the old rules. He can summon guardian spirits that deal out damage as good or better as the sam, he can slice through security as good or better as he could with the hacker doing his thing, and he can dispose of vast amounts of enemies with stunballs like noone else can. Why play a hacker or a sam? The mages does their job besides doing his own. That is what is wrong with those spells being insta win against sensors.


Yes, it makes them need the hacker. Wow. Team-based play. Unspeakable abomination.


Muspell might want to clarify that. Still, it again overvalues metahumans over humans. And while humans aren't such a good deal in BP either, one bonus Edge is quite powerful.


So you think the change is a step in the right direction but does not go far enough?


Tat Bitch about SR4A thread. Not gonna look it up right now, though, sorry.

I would argue that.

Sure DSer's represent a fairly small group of Shadowrun players. The difference is, we are the core group. Just using my group as an example. I'm the only one of my group who putzes around here with much regularity. Blakkie used to be a lot more active, but he spends most of his time with Burning Wheel right now.

Now also in my group, I'm the only one who buys the sourcebooks. Most of the others have a PDF or two (heck I'll admit it I've burned a few PDF's for them) but I have bought everything Catalyst has come out with so far, 90% of it in both PDF and hardcopy. Maybe I'm just projecting my group, but I think it's fair to assume this is fairly typical around most tables. If I wasn't into Shadowrun the rest of the group wouldn't be and heck I'm going to be starting a campaign shortly where I'll be introducing a new person to the game. He'll be the 10th person (over 3 editions) that I've introduced the game to.

As for the internet polls themselves. Polls are a lot less self selecting than debates, particularly heated ones. I'm not a huge fan of flame wars and if I can avoid getting dragged into one by clicking on a poll option instead of posting I will. This is particularly the case with the SR4A changes. I'm honestly quite indifferent to them, I think they would be better described as errata and honestly my group will rotate them in as it's appropriate and rotate them right back out if they don't work for us. I think they're getting blown out of proportion by a few (that I can see) very vocal individuals, many of whom can't make a point without calling someone else an idiot so I gloss them over and debate whether or not I should just avoid Dumpshock for a bit and give things a chance to cool down.

Then again it would take a hell of a lot for me to actually get pissed about changes made to a game I play. It would probably need to involve Adam Jury kicking my door in while wearing a ninja suit at 3AM to beat me up and kill my dog if I wasn't following the RAW... At the end of the day there are more important things in the world deserving my attention than if a rule got changed slightly. Heck, I'm thrilled to be getting an updated version of the rules. My first printing of the BBB is showing it's age. At the end of the day, Shadowrun is something fun to do on Sunday afternoons with a few friends who I wouldn't see otherwise, nothing more, nothing less. I think a few people here need to remember that.

Since this is probably going to be my only post on the subject I'd like to close off by saying thank you to Adam, Tiger Eyes and all the other Catalyst employees and freelancers who work so hard at giving me something fun to do on my Sunday afternoons. I think you do great work, and I look forward to where you are taking the game. Keep at it and don't let the bastards grind you down.

That mechanic definitely needs work.

A weight lifting skill would probably be the most accurate, as learning to lift heavier weights takes both practice as well as physical development, but it would probably see extremely limited use by players.



And while it's an abstract, it's still amusing that it would require a guy like me to be in the STR/BOD 4 or 5 range to lift the weights I do.

Which is ridiculous, because I'm not anywhere near that close to the human maximum.

At 1.71m 85kg, I deadlift about 135kg, rackpull about 180kg, bench 110kg and Squat 130kg. Overhead press would be around 60~70kg I estimate, but I've never done 3 rep max for overheads.

And I feel like one of the smaller dudes at the gym...

Around and around we go. They have always needed the hacker. Physical Illusions are now a worthless waste of karma unless you are a cheese whore like me.



No I think the change is stupid and doesn't address the issue.

What I suggested would be changing Stunbolt from F/2-1 to F-4 and doing the same thing to all spells across the board. The low end would get much easier, the middle ground would be about the same and the high end would take a scaled nerf that would discourage rampant overcasting.



Once again you state something as fact but deflect when you are called on it. Around and around we go.

like manabased illusions were before. they nerfed magic. as a long term mage player I can live with that. Actually I fully embrace this change as I felt my character being too mighty and too versatile for a team based game.

And if you think a Mage with Magic 5, Sorcery 5 and an Grade 2 Illusion spellcasting focus is cheesy (in order to affect the usual sensors) we're on a totally different board then.

How are physical illusions now worthless?

In the name of the wee man what are you dribbling about in that quote?

The rest have us have agreed pretty much unanimously that SR4A raises OR to 6 for any sensor worth caring about. You are the only person saying differently.

They raised OR to 6. You now need 18 Dice or more in your Spellcasting Dice Pool to reliably use them.

Along the same line as my question about what characters are rolling around not taking any drain ever: What mages are rolling around that can buy an automatic success to effect all technology now? At a threshold of 4 you would need 16 dice to buy an auto-success (if you're even allowed to on the particular spell). I'm not saying characters that can do this do not exist. I am saying that they have spent a *lot* of resources to do whatever it is they're trying to do.

Not to mention that the role of the "hacker" cannot be replaced by magic alone. Yes, the roles (like many roles in Shadowrun) overlap in quite a few places. If you're clever, and your GM generous, they may overlap in a few more. More than one way to solve a problem? Who thought of such an innovative design?

What for? If the mage can use task and guardian spirits in place of drones and electronics, and illusion magic in case of hacked sensors, what would the hacker be good for?


While encouraging massive casting of magic missiles. I don't really see an advantage.


"Once again", Mr. 'I win at 33% of total votes'? Stop behaving like a child.

But, since I can't seem to find it, I withdraw that statement until I find the source. That make you happy?

Oh Spirits now. That's a good counter to the argument about OR. How does a Mage bypass a Maglock with Illusion magic?



What the hell does that even mean?



You're the one doing all the name calling. I'll let the others decide who's behaving like a child.

Using a task spirit. However, to GET THERE he needs to bypass the SENSORS looking at the maglock. He cannot do that, neither can his spirit. So, now, he needs a hacker. Countrary to before where he could just illusion his way past the sensors.


Casting F1 to 5 stunbolts like there's no tomorrow. You encourage the use of masses of lower level spells with that proposed rules change. It does kinda address overcasting, though, but does nothing to solve the stunbolt happy mage issue.


Yes, do that.

Given the amount of resources that a mage would have to put in to do all of those things effectively I don't really see a problem with someone who happens to be magically active doing the role of the hacker in a group. Especially since if you're doing all of those things, you'd need an actual mage to do the other things mages generally do. Also, in your example, what does the mage do when he finally gets to the place where he can download the information that he wants? Does he have his cave man guardian spirit break open the computer because the information is "inside" it?

This game has magic *and* technology. You can use both to do a whole lot of things. Some things only technology can do, and some only magic can do. Claiming that magic is unbalanced because it happens to be able to do a few things that technology can do seems odd especially since this means (conversely) that technology can do quite a few things that magic can do.

Agreed. Airburst grenade is SO much better than anything a mage has got

There is no essay if the usual sensor is OR 4 or OR 6 like drones. I say the standard camera is OR 4 thus a Mage with Magic 5 Sorcery 5 and a Illusion focus 2 has a real good chance to strike the 4 successes needed for that. And by investing edge he is also within reach of 6 hits thus also being able to stand right in front of a drone not being seen. not that any mage who lives to gain that much power is dumb enought to try his magic by doing this.

It can? Technology can - at the same availability - generate damage like a Force 6 Stunball with 10 net hits? Technology can make people fly without any noise or signature that can be detected? Technology can make people invincible and silent at the same time? Technology can conjure spirits for instant and massive aid in battle that can hardly be kept out if coming from their respective planes? Technology can mend grave wounds in seconds?

Where can technology do that?

I hear tell that in SR4A, grenades don't stage up. I don't know if that factors in to your statement.

Concealment would still work, no?

You're right, but so is he. It's not very logical that overcasting has lower drain than casting at a low level.

1) Grenades. (Force 6 and 10 hits is 12 damage (stun) (10 hits is maxed by Force )) Frag grenades do 12P(f), high explosive does 16P
2) No, this is magic and magic only
3) Chameleon coating, I believe there is a way to reduce sound also
4) Drones are nearly the same. They come out of the closets and other hideyholes built for them (if you have a dog-sized drone, you wouldn't have a human sized door on its storage closet). A high force spirit is harder to take down than a drone, but they don't come in "hoards." It'd be like sending a dozen tanks into the halls.
5) First Aid takes combat rounds. Heal (magic) takes minutes. Oops, I guess tech is better!

On 5 points you found 1 (one!) way in which magic is as good as or better than technology. I'll give you two halves more (#3 and #4) for a total of 20%

Thats OK, they start out with 10-12 damage, making them as effective as a F5-6 powerball with as many hits as the force allows. NO DRAIN!

AND if you use them in a hallway, you get chunky salsa!

I thought mass casting was to be prevented?



Resisted with body + armour, not willpower + nothing. That needs to be factored in and seriously spoils your grenade party. There is no anti-magical armour, so magic wins here.


Good to see we agree.


Neither is as effective as invisibility and silence. magic wins. Also, cameleon coating and antisound devices will only get you so far if there's pressure sensors you need to fly over.


No. drones come from a base. You might take your drone van into the coompund you break in and have it drive behind you, I consider that a tad .... obvious. Spirits, you can call to yourself from the metaplane whereever you are. Much, much more flexible. Also, you can relatively easily take out a drone with guns; a spirit not so much, especiallly when it mindfucks you with confusion and such powers. Drones have nothing that compares. Additionally, drones often are too bulky to comfortably operate indoors, whereas spirits just take an appropriate shape if need be.


Not so much, as it's healing is capped.

Is being able to fire of Stunbolt at Force 5 all day a problem? Any more so than drones with LMG's?

I thought the problem was the one shot take-downs.

It was just an informative bit.
For examples use StunBall. Its harder to resist for most baddies.

mmmmmmm Chunky Salsa. But I also like, "Prepped Chili"

Well Flash-Bangs only do 6S, but thats still as good as a F3 Stunball with 3 net hits and NO DRAIN.

They dont chunky-salsa but I've got 5 of them left in the clip after firing the first one if you wanna get lippy.

Is that a Organ meat joke for my Chili comment?

I am not comparing them, nor am I trying to get involved in the fight. Just trying to help folks use consistent measure.

Given that the force 5 stunball is area effective and bypasses armour, it is a problem.

Example: There's a room with three troll guards, each wearing hervy military armour, formfitting 3, and a full set of PPP, for armour values of roughly 20/20 (and armed with gauss cannons, for good measure, it is an important room).

Grenades are rendered next to useless against these foes. They resist the damage with 14 + 20 = 34 dice. Lob a grenade in, even chunky salsa effects will not make them so much as sweat. they might fall over, oh my.

A mage casts a force 5 stun ball into that room, which would engulf two trolls. He rolls well and scores 6 hits, giving his ball 11M damage. Given they have only willpower 5, they resist with 5 dice - pretty impossible to soak. Now, the mage just knocked out two of three otheriwse hardly defeatable foes. if he is clever and uses invisibility, he can then, with no drain to worry about (1 success can be bought), stunball the remaining troll.

You know, the idea that regular cast spells get the F / 2 treatment while overcast spells get the F / 1 treatment would sit well with me. Makes overcast spells take a bigger hit on the caster. Overcasting should be harsh.

Stunball doesnt have autofire. an LMG can slice through Brick the Troll like he was made from toilet paper on an autofire burst.

Why? Where does it state that overcasting is THAT harsh?

No, but they have area effect. And I'd like to see that LMG.

Yes. Definitely a problem. A magician is to a samurai an apple to an orange. If we start trying to balance everything in the same way you end up with D&D 4e where everything is oranges but some are labelled apples.

I like the existing approach where the Samurai has steady output and sustainability and magic has powerful advantages in the right circumstances but lacks the staying power. I even like it thematically. Force -4 radically alters the game balance as well as eliminates distinctions between spells ranging from Force 1 to 5, saving the cap on hits.

However, Crizh has now convinced me there is a problem with the revised ORs. I think his solution is wrong and I'll get back to that, but I formerly considered the revised ORs a good thing. And I still do on the grounds that I like enhancing this area of weakness for mages and forcing a slightly narrower range of circumstances in which they exceed non-mages. But whilst that's fine for Direct Combat spells and maybe some others, Crizh is right that it has put a whole class of spells right outside the reach of most mages. I like a game where power-levels are more reasonable - a magician PC with a Magic of only 4 is fine and viable in my game. You need to be a highly skilled initiate to ever work an illusion on a drone now, though. Where cameras sit on the OR is debatable (4 lists Electronic Equipment but 6 lists "Computers") . I would be inclined to put cameras in at 4 making them possible again, but drones are plentiful and cheap so it's not much of a saving grace. Bear in mind that what nerfs PCs nerfs NPCs. Every PC is going to have a little drone on their shoulder subscribing to their smartlink and telling them where the GM's invisible assassin is.

Altering drain wont do anything for the illusion issue. But if a GM wants these spells to be viable for anyone other than their best NPCs or very min-maxed PCs, something needs to be done about it.

That is an "if" though. We could just accept this as a change in how things go and that it makes our game more interesting. In some Shadowrun fiction I wrote, a young magician foiled the sensors by having her companions invisible and walk alongside a security guard who did have permission to move through the area, thus convincing the systems that everything was okay. Restrictions force interesting solutions, but these spells wont see much use as is.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Hermit you are so full of it I can smell you from here.

First you move the goal posts by using a spell with TRIPLE the Drain of Stunbolt.

And then you flat out CHEAT with your supporting example.

I stopped reading at that point and I'm going to go back to my original rule of ignoring every word that comes out of your mouth.

Yes, I really leave the judgement on namecalling on observers. And your behavior.

Post reported.

Oh, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I meant that technology could do everything that magic could do and just as well. It's not what I said, and not even remotely close to what I said, but I guess someone could make that mistake...somehow.

But to answer your questions in the same manner that you responded to me:
It can? Magic can - at *any* availability - do any damage through any means to someone on the other side of a barrier that the caster cannot see? Magic can allow a character to use Skillwires? Magic can be used to increase your resistance to disease and toxins on a permanent basis? Magic can be used to direct swarms of drones for "instant and massive aid in battle" given their small size and easily concealed natures? Magic can mend grave wounds without *significant* risk of damage to the caster?

The answers to these questions (and to yours) are "Yes, some of these are possible even with Magic/Technology, though not quite as effective as the Technological/Magical counterpart. Some are completely impossible. And some are possible only if you're really, really clever." One of the reasons I enjoy Shadowrun is that there are several ways to solve almost any given problem. Some problems are exclusive to technology and some exclusive to magic. Some are solved more easily with one or the other.

As to an example of something exclusive to technology or magic, how about the following:
It is impossible to hack a drone with magic and very difficult (threshold 4 is not trivial) to affect a drone with magic in order to do anything to it (damage included). Conversely, it is impossible to hack a spirit with technology and very difficult to destroy a spirit with mundane weapons.

SR4A shifted the difficulties of affecting technology with magic thus empowering the technology side. A well needed shift in my opinion.

Yes, but possession spirits can take over drones. There is no reverse technology, however advanced and/or rare, for taking over spirits.


Only with a manifesting spirit of fire in a pool of petrol or somesuch; so yes, only in very special circumstances..


Possession gives access to spirit powers, but there is no clear equivalent, unless you have access to possession-able guardian and task spirits. Again, possible but limited.


Quicken respective spells.


Spirits outperform drones in many ways. Again, clever usage maximises their efficiency.


Magic is uncapped.



The problem I have is the balance. Most things a sam, hacker or rigger can do, a mage can do too, sometimes better, sometimes slightly less effectively. On the other hand, many things a mage can do are exclusive to the Awakened. This is not balanced, it clearly favours the mage over the mundanes.