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Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Mar 14 2009, 06:30 PM) *
The GM didn't want a character with those stats in the game.

And he's even less likely to want a character with 'cheated' stats in the game.
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Mar 14 2009, 06:30 PM) *
All I would care about is if the RAW was adhered to during the game.

That's very enlightened, but not the norm. In fact, the expectation is that you conform to the norm called RAW even before.
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Mar 14 2009, 06:30 PM) *
But I don't really care how much karma was how legitimately earned and spent, only if the end result - the character fits in a game. If it's too strong, then that's too bad.

And one first overall indicator how 'strong' a character is, no matter how you need to check it for details, is total earned karma. If that doesn't correpsond to total spent karma...
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Mar 14 2009, 06:30 PM) *
I don't.

I know and said so - the official system has.
Draco18s
Now you know why my GM doubles the suggested karma awards and added a way for us to buy karma (donate nuyen.gif 5000 in exchange for some karma--started at 1, now it's 3 (retroactive)).

Also why the most epic game ever run by our group was Scion: Hero to God (in 11 weeks). Rough estimate of EXP awarded per session: 50 to 75. SR equivalent: about 200 to 300 Karma (because remember, godlings can buy godlike powers).
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Angier @ Mar 14 2009, 07:02 PM) *
that's why the karma distribution system is only a guideline.

A guideline people will uses and that didn't change in SR4.5
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 14 2009, 06:58 PM) *
And if you don't know what your current Karma total is (as you obviously didn't write it down) how do you divide by 10?

You count earned karma up to 10, add a point street cred, then restart.
Angier
which equals what? oh, change in design focus. cool. they did it. burn em for that!
hermit
QUOTE
Different stat, recorded and modified independently, though derived from earned karma.

Hard to derive things from numbers you don't know. Honestly, that's all the total Karma has ever been good for.

QUOTE
You keep track of every tenth point of earned karma.

Seriously.

QUOTE
Meh. One needs to remember that the Pornomancer only gets that DP when doing one thing: trying to convince someone to have sex with them. It's not something that can be done in 1 Initiative Pass or even in 1 Combat Turn. For the amount of time it takes you to say "Nice legs, when do they open?" that sec guard probably hit you with 4 or 6 bursts from an SMG. Also keep in mind that the Pornomancer has quite a few conditional bonuses as part of that DP: First Impression and Home Ground for example. So right there they don't get the full DP unless they have never met the person before, and when that "target" person is in their "home ground" environment, which the book specifically states should not be mobile or even a "commonly encountered" area. Finally, the Pornomancer needs to gimp pretty much every other skill area in order to get that DP in Seduction. Also keep in mind that making a Seduction roll doesn't necessarily mean the person is prepared to give you anything you ask for in exchange for sex. While such a skill can be useful (even extremely useful) in some situations, its not what I would call "extremely broken."

Ah, so it is a severely crippled one-trick pony.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Angier @ Mar 14 2009, 01:06 PM) *
which equals what? oh, change in design focus. cool. they did it. burn em for that!


So you like playing the same character with no noticable advancement over the course of months?
Malicant
That's how he rolls. Advancement is for powergamers anyway.
Rotbart van Dainig
There's a new edition of Traveler out there...
Angier
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 14 2009, 07:07 PM) *
So you like playing the same character with no noticable advancement over the course of months?


nope. In my round we get a standard of 7 karma per session. suffices. besides that my personal observations regarding the weighting of attributes and skills showed me that attributes were way to cheap.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Angier @ Mar 14 2009, 01:12 PM) *
nope. In my round we get a standard of 7 karma per session. suffices. besides that my personal observations regarding the weighting of attributes and skills showed me that attributes were way to cheap.


See my signature.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 14 2009, 07:07 PM) *
Ah, so it is a severely crippled one-trick pony.

When using different mentor spirits, the build turned into a Leadermancer or Diplomancer.
Fuchs
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 14 2009, 07:07 PM) *
So you like playing the same character with no noticable advancement over the course of months?


Yes. Over years, actually, in my case.
hobgoblin
i really need to get some popcorn going silly.gif
Malicant
Salty or sweet?
hobgoblin
sweet?! eek.gif
Fuchs
I also wonder about convention games. How would I know if karam was earned "legitimately"? Who knows if karam was not given out by a monty haul GM? Or by "I run your character, you run my character through milk run runs! We'll be initiates in no time!" teams?

Seriously, unless you've been there for all the karama earned, you don't know how it was earned.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Malicant @ Mar 14 2009, 07:20 PM) *
Salty or sweet?

How about basic? It'll sure compensate all the vitriol here... twirl.gif
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Mar 14 2009, 07:24 PM) *
Seriously, unless you've been there for all the karama earned, you don't know how it was earned.

And your point would be?

My point is that spent karma is expected to be equal or less than total karma as a plausibility check and experience gauge.
Malicant
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Mar 14 2009, 07:23 PM) *
sweet?! eek.gif

I know, right?
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 14 2009, 07:28 PM) *
How about basic? It'll sure compensate all the vitriol here... twirl.gif

i just hope the walls can take it wink.gif
eidolon
My quick take on the two "biggies" of att advancement cost and Direct Combat spells:

- reward more Karma

- I've always run it this way, because the game never said you got two rolls in that case.

I'm seeing a bunch of people that want a company to listen to their ideas and incorporate their fixes into the game griping when the company does just that. You can't forget that while they are listening to you, it's still their game and their product, and it isn't their job to make sure that they please you personally. You didn't like every little thing about the game before, you aren't likely to like every little thing about the game now. It's life as a gamer.




Draco18s
QUOTE (eidolon @ Mar 14 2009, 02:46 PM) *
- I've always run it this way, because the game never said you got two rolls in that case.


I'm confused. Two rolls?
Muspellsheimr
Back to the original topic(ish).

I support delaying the print run & using the PDF release as a Beta test.

The changes I feel need addressing, & my suggested alterations in Spoilers.
Note: I still have not obtained the PDF, & am basing this on what I have seen posted on these forums.

1) Attribute Advancement Costs
[ Spoiler ]


2) Direct Combat Spells
[ Spoiler ]


3) Limits on Hardware/Software Ratings
[ Spoiler ]



Edit:
4) OR Resistance Table
[ Spoiler ]

Edit:
4) OR Resistance Table (suggested table layout)
[ Spoiler ]
Angier
@ 2) what would make them then any useful?
HappyDaze
QUOTE
I support delaying the print run & using the PDF release as a Beta test.

I purchased the PDF with the belief that it is the finished product. Are you really suggesting that the company defraud me and others like me that purchased it with that belief?
pbangarth
Won't PDFs with fixes come for free to those who purchased the PDF? That's what I thought when I bought the PDF.
HappyDaze
Ideally, but it may not always work out that way.
Malicant
It obviously is not the finished product, since printing is already delayed until the community proof reads it. Of course you will get the finished product, once it is... well... finished. Basically you have a pre-ordered pdf file with preview. It's kinda ok, I guess.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Mar 14 2009, 12:08 PM) *
What precisely has y'all's panties in a twist? Can we get a list?


So far my only complaint is the new thresholds. I understand the theory of why they were changed, but I think it was a bad decision. So super modded dudes can pull things off easily. Um so what, they are super modded dudes they should pull these things off easily. What this does though is make people have to min-max powergame in order to do things that they have always been able to do. The place I noticed it first was spells, with the new OR thresholds physical illusion spells are utterly failing at there intended difference between them and mana illusion spells. With a OR threshold of 6 for many of the non-living targets you will encounter you need to make a total dice whore of a character to even have a shot to compete. This may be a fix for those "EVIL" powergame types who now might have a chance at failing at tasks, but it slaps down hard all the non powergamers.

Of course you could make a metamagic technique that lowered OR thresholds to fix this, or just lower them to their original levels, or exempt more spells, or maybe making it a sensor based test to see trough the illusion or heck sensor+analyze or something. It is not a game breaker or anything, but I do not like it when rules make me feel forced to cheese out a character in order to compete. This is especially bad to me because if I am rolling enough dice to get past a freaking drone, I'm rolling so many dice on other illusions that I'm way more powerful than I want.

I actually love the direct damage spell change, it brings them a bit more in line power wise with indirect spells and it adds a bit of wild magic flavor to it. I like the max mod rating of 2, it wont effect any character I make much since drones seem to almost all have 3 pilots etc. So you have to start off with decent goods in order to make the best so be it. I like the cost changes in atrributes, yeah it may be a PITA to manage in some existing games, but attributes were too cheap. I think skills are also too expensive but hey one fix at a time.
tete
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Mar 14 2009, 08:16 PM) *
I purchased the PDF with the belief that it is the finished product. Are you really suggesting that the company defraud me and others like me that purchased it with that belief?


I think PDF betas with feedback could be useful but its too late this time around.
If you released a pay for PDF preview with feedback email accepted, providing you listen to the majority of your fanbase you could have a very successful product. The question is how much would you have to charge to make it worth someones time to read feedback and would people buy a beta copy at that price.
Angier
Maybe CGL thinks that the average character should NOT be able to do things he was able to do before? OR was a silly joke before.
Glyph
My biggest problem with the change in how combat spells work is that, for four editions and twenty years of the game, combat spells were the effective, low-Drain workhorses of the game. Now, suddenly, they go from being relatively low-Drain spells to having crippling Drain. I don't like it when the way the game world works changes like that - it is the same as if they suddenly made smartlinks give less of a bonus than laser sights.

Plus, higher Drain does nothing but make mages more unplayable - unlike NPC mages, who only have to worry about getting through one fight, the PC mage will need to worry that casting an effective spell could bone him for the rest of the session. And far from discouraging munchkinism, it will have people who normally play lower-powered characters scrounging to get extra dice, simply to be able to survive.

The change in Attribute costs, I could live with, but they need to get the Runner's Companion errata out ASAP, so people will know how to use Karmagen under the new rules.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Angier @ Mar 14 2009, 03:23 PM) *
Maybe CGL thinks that the average character should NOT be able to do things he was able to do before? OR was a silly joke before.


OR was a silly joke for cheese characters, but I could not rely on getting 4 successes all the time with any of the mages I've played or played with. 6 successes I don't expect every to see outside of flukes.

Also if I am getting 6 successes on average since that is how I have to build a mage now, good luck resistant any spell i throw your way even when you have cover.
Rotbart van Dainig
Now, back to the Attribute vs. Skills dilemma:

It's basically agreed on the fact that 3xAttribute, 5xSkill Group, 2xSkill and 1xKnowledge Skill wasn't that balanced - but the 11xTotal was mostly accepted to allow decent character development.
The vitriol about the 5xAttribute, 5xSkill Group, 2xSkill and 1xKnowledge Skill is twofold - first, it's now 13xTotal, slowing character development (and causing every existing character to have a karma deficit), and secondly, Skill Groups and Skills still are too expensive.

The more I think about it, one solution would be to simply swap the old Attribute and Skill Group multipliers, so it's 5xAttribute, 3xSkill Group, 2xSkill and 1xKnowledge Skill. Sure, that makes Skill Groups very cheap, but, on the other hand, they don't allow for Specializations - which are about the best way to get two more dice, not limited by caps.

What would be the results?
Charakters will start with Skill Groups mostly (even if using BP, as it allows cheap advancement and you'll need some skills) and then break them with a Skill raise later on, to get the sweet Specilization - leaving them more wellrounded, while taking the load off Attributes.
Macro Skills (Artisan, Heavy Weapons, etc.) that don't belong to a Skill Group now are a bit more balance to Skill Groups, while Exotic Skills are now really rare.
knasser
Ha! I've just been called on my current stance having just found a few things that I dislike in the PDF. biggrin.gif

Well I said that I felt the devs have indeed been listening to us, so I guess I put down what I'm concerned about and see if there's any chance it will be adopted. Probably not, but my criticisms have a couple of major plus points so I'll live in hope: namely that they both make excellent sense whereas the existing part can be demonstrated not to, and secondly they're almost exactly the same word count so could be substituted in without Adam having a stroke. smile.gif

1. The lifting rules are still horribly wonky. They seem to have been designed with the idea that on a really good roll, a character will achieve around their maximum lift. This is horribly unrealistic as in real life, the amount you can lift does not swing from + / - 30 or 40% from attempt to attempt. I have never lain back on my weights bench, decided to add an extra 40kg / 90lbs to my barbell because I feel lucky this time. On a really good roll, someone with Body 6 and Strength 6 will be lifting around the current world records by the current rules. But most of the time they'd never get close. Meanwhile, a physically fit but nothing special man with Body and Strength of 3 each will lift only 25kg (55lbs) over his head most of the time, then suddenly get lucky and lift 40kg (88lbs) at an increase of 60%. It's an annoying and horrible breach of believability

My house-ruled version is as follows:
15kg per point of strength overhead, plus 5kg per successs on Bod+Str
25kg per point of strenght straight lift, plus 10kg per success on Bod+Str.

That follows the same basic pattern as the existing rules so can easily be substituted in, it reduces the swinginess whilst still keeping in a bit of dice-rolling uncertainty (not that anyone has ever made such a roll in combat) and it approximates real world values pretty closely. Our Body 6, Strength 6 person is still lifting around the world record levels whilst someone with an Exception Attribute (Strength) will hit the world record semi-reliably and even just exceed it on occasion. Please consider this unobtrusive change.

The second one is like it. The movement rules in Shadowrun are good and again approximate real world values with one exception: characters with multiple IPs can, by the existing rules, take multiple Sprint actions which lead to absurd speeds. I can get my head around improved reflexes letting someone aim and fire a gun more quickly, but why does it let them utterly shatter world 400m records? Set a limit of one Sprint action per combat turn and someone with high Strength and Running skills is matching a fast real world sprinting speed. That's great. Give them just two extra initiative passes and they'll typically increase their speed by an additional 19km/hr (12mph) because they have 'fast reflexes'. I don't mind augmented humans comfortably running at 53km/h (33mph) but I'd rather it wasn't the result of Synaptic Boosters. If you do combine it with augmented attributes or use Edge, this will go MUCH higher, btw. There's almost a full blank line unused on the paragraph on sprinting so you could squeeze something in. smile.gif

And if you state that the typical human attribute is a 2, with 3 being slightly better than average, you'll find that (a) it's more realistic as most people are far below their ultimate potential so you need more room above the mode than you do below it and (b) people who want a cool character don't have to min-max quite so much to get high attributes to match a character concept, relieving power-gaming slightly. But I guess this last one is too much to ask?

And my sister would like a pony too, please?

Cheers,

Khadim.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 14 2009, 08:44 PM) *
And if you state that the typical human attribute is a 2, with 3 being slightly better than average, you'll find that (a) it's more realistic as most people are far below their ultimate potential so you need more room above the mode than you do below it and (b) people who want a cool character don't have to min-max quite so much to get high attributes to match a character concept, relieving power-gaming slightly.

Keep in mind that a mode of 3 already is below average (3.5) and the lower part of the median.
knasser
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 14 2009, 07:49 PM) *
Keep in mind that a mode of 3 already is below average (3.5) and the lower part of the median.


Thanks - I phrased it badly. I should have said that I want more room above the mode than we currently have.

The trouble with it as it stands is that firstly it is unrealistic. The strength of the typical human male is not half the strength of the strongest human male. It's not normally remotely close to half the strength of the strongest human male. Similarly for other attributes. Very few people really exercise their potential so people who do are way above the average. That's simply observably true of real life and given there is no mechanical implciation to what is stated, there is no reason not to have the descriptions reflect this. Furthermore, I feel very constrained with so little room to raise people's attributes. If 3 is the typical human being, then anyone who wants to be just slightly better than the norm, e.g. a street tough who ain't Schwarzenneger, but maybe just like a dock worker, someone who does manual labour, well they have to be Strength 4. A point past that and we're very nearly into world class strength. Set the typical value to 2 with a good average, e.g. our dock worker, at 3. Now the player who wants their character to at least look fit and tough can have his Strength and Body at 3 and be happy. And I, as GM have more descriptive room for my NPCs. Not every tough guy has to now have a Strength of 5 / 6 unaugmented.

EDIT: In amongst all the complaints of this thread, which must be harsh for the devs who worked so hard on this, I might as well ask why the previews on the site don't show more of the incredible artwork in this anniversary edition? It really is remarkable and people need to get a taste for it. The sample characters for example - you've kept the best ones such as the Ork Gunslinger Adept and the Weapons Specialist, but all the weaker ones you've revamped. The dwarf face for example is a spectacular improvement. Really like the policeman interrogating the troll on pg. 125 as well. Please put some of these on the site so that people can see how cool it is! biggrin.gif
TKDNinjaInBlack
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Mar 14 2009, 01:50 PM) *
Back to the original topic(ish).

I support delaying the print run & using the PDF release as a Beta test.

The changes I feel need addressing, & my suggested alterations in Spoilers.
Note: I still have not obtained the PDF, & am basing this on what I have seen posted on these forums.

1) Attribute Advancement Costs
[ Spoiler ]


2) Direct Combat Spells
[ Spoiler ]


3) Limits on Hardware/Software Ratings
[ Spoiler ]



This has been the first real educated and well planned response to this errata and I thank you Muspellsheimer for presenting this in a polite and ordered fashion instead of whining like a teenager while pointing fingers and calling names. While I like most of the changes, and in fact am not posting here to support the petition, I would like to bring attention to some of the good points you bring up.

<Attribute Advancement Increased Cost>
While I agree with the increased cost of improvement from 3 karma x new rating going to 5 karma x new rating (I think attributes should take longer to increase), he brings up a good point about attribute advancement through karma and how it negatively affects metatype bonuses (most namely body and strength of Trolls, Orks and Dwarves). This was one of those factors that kind of bothered me in the original SR4. Metahumans already had to pay BP to earn their attribute bonuses and then when trying to improve said attributes later they still got the shaft. It was the same problem, but it's just more noticable now. I do like your suggestion in that when improving attributes, one should take into consideration what the lowest possible attribute is for that metatype...
As far as the arguments using Karma Gen as a reason? Karma gen is another possible system, but BP is still the games standard generator. If you're already using Karma gen, you are already tweaking your game. Just tweak it further.

<Direct Combat Spells>
I personally like the addition of net hits upping the drain value by 1 per net hit. Net hits actually up the value of the spell higher than the force, and therefore by "cooking your spell" the caster "cooks his transmitter (his body)" a bit as well. It's a bit more of a flavor rule that I think adds to the gameplay and logic of increased damage.
However, this doesn't change some of the problems that I've encountered with direct combat spells. Number one; there is no damage resistance roll. This is the major complaint I hear out of my players when dealing with these spells. They get their defense roll and they either get no damage and successfully will it out of existence, or they get the full effects of the spell PLUS whatever extra the caster dumps into the spell with net hits. A damage soak roll would be a WONDERFUL addition (using something like astral combat's damage resistance (willpower + astral/mystic armor).
Second problem that's not fixed is the abuse of overcasting. I have magicians casting ridiculously high stunbolts and resisting the physical drain with no problems. A powerful (and logical) nerf would be to increase the drain by +1 per each level of force over the highest regular spell a magician could cast instead of the normal +1 per 2 levles. I probably didn't make that clear, so here's an example:
Joe Mage is magic 6 and casts his F6 stunbolt for 2 drain. As soon as he overcasts at F12, his drain is still only 5 and he statistically might only take 2-3 of those physical wounds. The increase in damage though is disproportional to the amount of danger that should be associated with overcasting (especially a monster like a F12 spell, that's a fraggin' instant kill spell most of the time.)
I'd like overcast spells to carry a +1 drain per level over the magic limited normal force. So, we have Joe Mage again at his magic 6 and he casts his F8 stunbolt. It's now 3 drain for the Force, and a +2 drain for being over his normal force limit. And, since he's overcasting, it's going to be physical damage. It's a huge nerf, but it prevents the biggest abuse of spellcasting that i've seen...
Aristotle
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Mar 14 2009, 02:16 PM) *
I purchased the PDF with the belief that it is the finished product. Are you really suggesting that the company defraud me and others like me that purchased it with that belief?

Jump the gun mutch? I didn't say that is what they did. I said I'd support that idea. You would need to get some sort of notice of the fact before purchasing of course, but it seems a great way to leveredge the technology and allow the community some room for feedback before things are set in stone ..er.. ink.

You would *obviously* get a redownload of the finished product once changes were implemented. They have given purchasers redownloads of the PDF when eratta'd versions were completed in the past. I'd expect it to remain the same moving forward. This 'working document' approach makes the books MORE valuable in my opinion, not less. I never have to compare book text to eratta documents.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
Jump the gun mutch? I didn't say that is what they did. I said I'd support that idea. You would need to get some sort of notice of the fact before purchasing of course, but it seems a great way to leveredge the technology and allow the community some room for feedback before things are set in stone ..er.. ink.

Since you're from Virginia, I'll accept that your grasp of English might be limited. Look at the tense I used - it's not the past tense that you seem to basing your assumption on. I'm noting that some are suggesting a course of action that, if followed, would result in the company defrauding me and others.

And never tell me something is *obviously* going to happen. Future events have a way of not being so obvious.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Mar 14 2009, 04:39 PM) *
Since you're from Virginia, I'll accept that your grasp of English might be limited. Look at the tense I used - it's not the past tense that you seem to basing your assumption on. I'm noting that some are suggesting a course of action that, if followed, would result in the company defrauding me and others.

And never tell me something is *obviously* going to happen. Future events have a way of not being so obvious.


You have a fairly unique view of fraud. Errata and rules changes happen in a games rule set. It is not fraud, to make changes. It was complete, but through additional research designers do what they can to improve on the game. Work for my Boss you will see true fraud.
HappyDaze
I buy an electronic copy of a product that will have a printed physical form available for purchase at a later date. If the printed product is made and is not the same as what I purchased because (hypothetically) what I actually purchased was not meant to be a finished product but rather a 'beta' document, that's fraud.
Angier
only if you do not get an update for the electronic document (which you get!)
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Mar 14 2009, 04:52 PM) *
I buy an electronic copy of a product that will have a printed physical form available for purchase at a later date. If the printed product is made and is not the same as what I purchased because (hypothetically) what I actually purchased was not meant to be a finished product but rather a 'beta' document, that's fraud.


Um no, because changes to the rules and errata are an expected part of games. Its no more fraud than a online game patch.
Adam
Okay, let's just address this "fraud" thing real quick:

When possible, we make corrections to the final printed book based on mistakes found in the PDF release. These are usually minor corrections such as typos, misformatted elements, etc.

If the corrections are major, we'll put out a new PDF immediately.

If the corrections are minor, we'll wait until we compile the errata document for that book, which is just before we *re*print the book. Then we'll put out a new PDF to coincide with the reprint.

However, most of the time, the PDF comes out after the book goes to press, so the the first update that fits into our workflow is the one that occurs with errata compiling/reprinting.

[There have been cases where the update process hasn't happened, such as the previous SR4 printing and Street Magic which were tied up in extra legalese and wrangling. We're also behind on Unwired and need to release a PDF update for that.]

Every book we release is going to have errors. Legit, human errors; someone isn't going to notice a typo, or something mis-sorted in an alphabetical list, a table border that's formatted just slightly differently from the others, or the person inputing a correction is going to accidentally insert an extra comma. It happens; none of us like it, but it's reality.

As the head of production at Catalyst, I am always pushing our developers and myself to find better workflow solutions to automate tasks that are more prone to error or more time consuming, and therefore reduce the number of errors in our books *and* give our authors, editors, developers, and proofreaders more time to read and correct the "meat" of the books.
Larsine
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 14 2009, 05:35 PM) *
Excuse me, but they took the least broken builds and gimped them.
Changes to the pornomancer? No.
Changes to the ubersummoner? No.
Changes to the Mind Control Mage? No.


Sort of change to all of the above:

QUOTE (SR4A page 60)
Optionally, gamemasters may choose to cap dice pools (including modifiers) at 20 dice, or at twice the sum of the character’s natural Attribute + Skill ratings, whichever is higher.


Lars
Draco18s
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Mar 14 2009, 04:52 PM) *
I buy an electronic copy of a product that will have a printed physical form available for purchase at a later date. If the printed product is made and is not the same as what I purchased because (hypothetically) what I actually purchased was not meant to be a finished product but rather a 'beta' document, that's fraud.


It's not fraud if they go:
HERE YOU! Take this UPDATED electronic VERSION FOR FREE because you purchased it.

QUOTE
Optionally, gamemasters may choose to cap dice pools (including modifiers) at 20 dice, or at twice the sum of the character’s natural Attribute + Skill ratings, whichever is higher.


That actually only effects the Pornomancer. Ubersummoners merely need to be summoning force 8 spirits, which is entirely within the realm of doability without exceeding those limits.

The Mind Control Mage is using even less DP to achieve his results:
Magic 4, Spellcasting 4, own one spell: Control Thoughts, Willpower 4, Charisma 4: 8 dice to cast (say, Force 4, vs. the wilpower of the target) and 8 dice to resist 4 drain. So the mage takes a little stun. The other guy is dead.
Ryu
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 14 2009, 08:49 PM) *
Keep in mind that a mode of 3 already is below average (3.5) and the lower part of the median.

There are other distributions than Gauss. We are not given a distribution, and if we wished to analyse, we would have to find the most fitting reasoning...
TheForgotten
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Mar 14 2009, 09:52 PM) *
I buy an electronic copy of a product that will have a printed physical form available for purchase at a later date. If the printed product is made and is not the same as what I purchased because (hypothetically) what I actually purchased was not meant to be a finished product but rather a 'beta' document, that's fraud.


Irrelevant, you have no damages (especially as Catalyst will likely provide you with a pdf of the finished version). Also I think, we released the pdf early so we could fix any typo's and then changed some content when we got a earful from the player base, pretty clearly shows that CAT is acting in good faith.
ICPiK
I think it's taking a rules system we've all been trying hard to learn and improve with our own house rules, and adds more complication . I think a twentieth anniversary book is cool, make new art and better charts but some of the rules did not need to be supplemented. I'll sign it!
Medicineman
In SR4 the Attribute cost(x3) was too low compared to Skill Groups and Skill
Now in SR4A its ok(x5) imo
So,all the GMs have to do is raise the Karma-gain and this will solve some of the Problems. I really hope the Devs will advise more Karma for Players
Rotbart is concerned that his Char has to be recalculated and will loose some hundred Karma (according to his new Signature),but compared to what ?
he can readjust it in his own Group at his Leisure
and if he goes to a Convention to play Missions ? IIRC you have to make new Chars for Missions so,no Problem,a new Char wit SR4A Rules
and if his Char relly looses some hundred Karma ,than I doubt him to be legit for Missions wink.gif smile.gif

with a Dance for more Karma
Medicineman
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