Dumpshock Forums > Glasses vs. Goggles

Shinobi Killfist

Aug 5 2009, 02:06 AM

QUOTE (Orcus Blackweather @ Aug 3 2009, 10:59 PM)

So you are saying that in your world, the corps are all knowing, all powerful, with unlimited manpower of the highest possible skill and integrity. The corps have an unlimited budget, are answerable to noone, and can do anything they wish. My only question then is what your runners do for a living, deliver pizzas I suppose? It would be pointless to oppose the all powerful corps in anyway, so I assume that they just sit at home knitting when they are not obeying the mandates of the corps.

No I am saying, don't delude your self on why you give corp X a certain security set up. Its not because its what they would logically do with there money, its because that is what would make a fun adventure. If corps would logically do the corridors full with smoke sounds etc, they could also have radioactive paint bombs for future tracking, nanite swarms with tracers, take out that being smoke and make it neuro stun or other non lethal chemical weapon of your choice. Saying I do X because I don't play my corps like R-tards is just another way of saying I'm a better gamer than you. When really what makes a good gamer is having a fun game. And if smoke without other X logical and cheap choices is fun for you great, if no smoke is fun for you great, if tomb of horror style death traps is fun for your group great.

Ravor

Aug 5 2009, 02:17 AM

And I read that rant as the kettle calling the pot black at best.

Shinobi Killfist

Aug 5 2009, 02:18 AM

QUOTE (Ravor @ Aug 4 2009, 01:18 PM)

HappyDaze

Shinobi Killfist I think you are forgetting that the DM has unlimited resources, but the corps and NPCs don't, they still ahve to answer to budgets, resource scarcities, rules of engaugment, ect, ect, ect...

And yet all of my ideas so far are cheaper than yours. There are tons of really cheap ways to totally wreck the shadow runners day. You pick the ones that make your game fun. On a side point your smoke/flash ideas actually make it easier on PCs. They will have ways to cope with the problems but they like everyone else will still suffer mods, like -2 due to flash packs even when you have flare comp. The difference is PCs will handle -2 dice a lot better than security guards. Heck those -2's from smoke and flash will probably make it likely guards will shoot themselves in the foot. So filling corridors with negative mods might be a good tactic, since the average SR is like a average guard, but vs the PCs it wont be so bad. Now Red Samurai style guards will handle it about as well as the PCs.

Shinobi Killfist

Aug 5 2009, 02:20 AM

QUOTE (Ravor @ Aug 4 2009, 09:17 PM)

And I read that rant as the kettle calling the pot black at best.

You chose to read it that way.

Ravor

Aug 5 2009, 02:27 AM

Depends on whether or not you are playing with inflated Dicepools or not, and you have yet to answer why your "cheap" and "effective" methods of blowing everything to hell isn't SOP with security in the real world. Hell's Bells how do you figure out who to shoot with that guass rifle of yours?

CanadianWolverine

Aug 5 2009, 02:28 AM

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 4 2009, 06:47 PM)

You're overthinking this. The point of the exercise is to keep the guard's "improvements" from becoming capital investments. Factory Smartlinked heavy pistol or SMG is as high as you'd probably see off a military base (or corp equivalent) where you'd probably see an assault rifle, but those guards would probably have the cyber, right?

Ahh cool, thanks for helping me improve my understanding of the corp sec guards. The Vision Mag besides cheap cost and avail, I figured a guard walking perimeter might like it in open spaces. Indoors, yeah, seems totally silly and the smartgun system would be way better, can take shots around corners/from behind cover that way a far less penalty, net +1 IIRC in the thread I asked about it. Just picked it on the idea of being cost effective aka cheap. Speaking of cheap, what is a capital investment? That is the SWAT team guys, right? Optimized out the wazoo and bringing the big guns with skills to match?

QUOTE

Uh huh, and you're going to integrate their information HOW so you don't accidentally cover something vital with another visual que? Stick with one device or go cyber. And contacts are more expensive and fragile... and prone to being lost. If you are willing to go that far, get the guy some chrome eyes.

"Hey, Mr. Shadowrunner, look, I know it's asking a lot, but I think I've lost my smartlink contact somewhere here on the floor, and if you'd be so kind as to -"
*BLAM*
"Moron."

Er, I was thinking Image Link/Smart Link has you covered there if its all digital. Or is that something else?

And how often do the contacts get lost? What kind of roll is that? If you glitch on a perception test or something? Or is it a automatic fail as judged by the GM?

Cthulhudreams

Aug 5 2009, 02:29 AM

QUOTE (Ravor @ Aug 5 2009, 12:01 PM)

Except that the corps have to answer to the bottom line, unlike today's governments, they don't get to simply print more money or raise taxes to pay for SOTA security and training, so judgement calls are going to be made about how secure is secure enough. Also remember that Mages are LESS than 1% of the population, and apperantly the Shadows collects far more than it's fair share of Awakened Assists, so you might not have an Astral Mage ready to jump at every Runner Incursion.

Remember that in the Sixth World, Lonestar doesn't pay their Beat Cops enough to even live on per Third Edition and you literaly have examples of corps kidnapping their own people and using threats against family members to ensure that they do their job. Life is Cheap and they really do care more about damage to the building and equipment then they do for the lost of life.

Sure. An IRA carbomb in london cost an estimated 2 billion dollars, and the R&D for a new vehicle costs about that too (A nuyen is some amount less than a dollar). You're seriously underestimating the actual costs of what the runners can trivially do. Lone Star beat cops are Barney the Fat Overweight RentaCop with an obession with doughnuts.

You'd don't send him up against the IRA. He'll just get killed. You send the Red Samurai up against Runners. Remember, the corps have them too, and they understand that the Runners are on a Red Samuri threat dimension, not a Barney the Fat Useless Rentacop dimension.

Ravor

Aug 5 2009, 02:33 AM

Personally I'd rule that contacts, trodes, ect getting dislodged are perfectly reasonable results from any glitch that involved stressful movements.

Ravor

Aug 5 2009, 02:39 AM

Sure, and the corps also understand that unlike the IRA or other Terrorist Factions the Runners can be paid to attack their rivals and that it is foolish not to use them as disposable and more importantly virtually untracable tools in the semi-cold proxie war that is being waged twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week.

Cthulhudreams

Aug 5 2009, 02:46 AM

Sure, but thats not the situation the Corps actually have.

There are lots of runner teams. There are legions of poor people, who as you point out are just as likely to be mages as anyone else. Only one runner team is trying to blow up the stock exchange right now. Unless you stop it right now that is going to cost you TWO BILLION Nuyen.

It's not like if you kill the team trying to blow up the stock exchange you're suddenly going to run into a shortage of runners in general. So you kill the ones the catch trying to hurt you right now and hire some other ones when you need them in the future.

Incidently, your counter example is bad. Terrorist fractions can be paid to attack rivals. Seriously, did you see that the CIA really did fund all sorts of Afgan extremists to blow up the russians.

Brazilian_Shinobi

Aug 5 2009, 04:10 AM

Discussing the thread's title, I would say that it is cheaper for the corps to put laser sights on the security personel's weapon than smartlink systems. I mean, they won't spend big money to give each guard a good commlink with a nice Firewall to avoid being hacked.

Now, discussing why the hell the corps don't blow their own building every time a group of runners show up?
I think the argument is moot.

Let us assume that a corp spends hundreds of millions of dollars on the best security gear they can put their hands on for EVERY facility they own. How the hell they are still profiting?
By the same argument that corps can improve their security by studying how the runners were able to infiltrate their facilities, runners can improve their infiltration methods by studying what the corps have installed in their facilities. That is what contacts are for, legwork. There will always be someone who will do small talk about their company and give away details without noticing.Afterall, A secret between two people, can only be maintained when one of them dies!

Kerenshara

Aug 5 2009, 04:17 AM

QUOTE (CanadianWolverine @ Aug 4 2009, 09:28 PM)

Ahh cool, thanks for helping me improve my understanding of the corp sec guards. The Vision Mag besides cheap cost and avail, I figured a guard walking perimeter might like it in open spaces. Indoors, yeah, seems totally silly and the smartgun system would be way better, can take shots around corners/from behind cover that way a far less penalty, net +1 IIRC in the thread I asked about it. Just picked it on the idea of being cost effective aka cheap. Speaking of cheap, what is a capital investment? That is the SWAT team guys, right? Optimized out the wazoo and bringing the big guns with skills to match?

Hmmm, that's a good question. For the purposes of this thread, let's call it a significant initial investment in material costs which are not effectively recoverable except through use. An example would be a custom-built dredging crane built just for you; Other than you using it, there's not much way to really recoup the investment since nobody else will buy it. So figure... 10,000Â¥ total? That has to include a good comlink with a good OS with an above-average firewall, encryption and ECCM and an agent to run it for the ID10T using it, a good armored jacket with a couple points in anti-electricity and chemical protection, the glasses as fitted out, ear buds with damping (audio link would seem an automatic feature, neh?), a high end heavy pistol with factory SmartLink (Predator IV works) or a good general purpose factory SmartLinked SMG (Colt Cobra TZ-118 at 650Â¥, or the SCK Model 100 at 750Â¥). Say corp issue armor jackets include a biomonitor. Ammunition, extra magazines, patrol belt (have you ever priced a real-world paramilitary gun belt?), Handcuffs, non-lethal spray, a tazer, a Rtg 1 Medkit (little belt thingie) with a trauma patch. Oh, a really good flashlight, a nightstick, a decent folding knife, extra magazines, MAYBE a FFBA shirt, badge reader w/ fingerprint and/or retinal scanner, comfortable shoes (seriously, if their feet hurt, they won't stand and be attentive, and will tend to cut patrols short), a pretty "Respe't mai ah-thor-ih-tie" badge... yeah, that's most of it. A lot of it's nickle and dime, but it adds up pretty quickly. So let's say a "capital investment" is any single item over 5,000Â¥ give or take, or any batch of items worth collectively more than 10,000Â¥? Cybereyes Rtg 2 with Lowlight, Thermal, Smartlink, Flare Comp is 4,750Â¥, so less than capital. If the corp's willing to pick up the tab for cyber, go ahead and call it 20,000Â¥ overall for kit and cyber. Remember the datajack, and a SimModule *EDIT:I originally put in SimRig because I was typing without the benefit of Holy Caffiene. Sorry. Thanks for the catch, KCKitsune* (for training as well as desk work) can be an option inside an implanted comlink for cheap and no extra essence loss. That's a Level 1 guard in my book. Guards who aren't making enough to live on would have skills of about 2, not much more than hired muscle. If they sprung for cyber, then they're going to have 3's in most important basic areas, like their guns and perception (if you're not training them to keep an eye out, why did you bother with them in the first place).

SWAT guys are going to have 4's in the important stuff, their cyber's going to be Alpha, they will arrive with Ares Alpha assault rifles or the equivalent, their armor's going to be at least light security armor with a helmet if not light military armor (lower encumbrance). These guys are also going to have either bio or chrome stat boosts and built-in armor, extra init passes, and probably some other surprises. Might be an adept amongst them. Definitely a mage.

And beyond the SWAT response team are things like, oh, let's say, Ares Firewatch. Betaware, and lots of it. Heavy weapons, military armor with all the trimmings. If they call out THESE guns, all I can do is quote Corben Dallas from The 5th Element: "I don't know what you did to piss these guys off, lady, but they are REALLY pissed off!"

Is this starting to come together for you?

QUOTE

Er, I was thinking Image Link/Smart Link has you covered there if its all digital. Or is that something else?

That's another, older thread. Say you have the SmartLink emulator running on your comlink (general consensus was a RTG 1 "rare" program at 500Â¥), then you could theoretically drop the SmartLink, but if they hack your comlink... On the other hand, if they have time to hack your comlink to disable your SmartLink emulation program, you're probably in such deep drek the rest is just insult to injury.

QUOTE

And how often do the contacts get lost? What kind of roll is that? If you glitch on a perception test or something? Or is it a automatic fail as judged by the GM?

Here, glitches, or a check whenever gas/smoke is used... have YOU ever worn contacts to a smoky pub? They don't have to come to become useless; having your eyes water so badly you can't see and sting so badly you take a -1 to all actions? And add 1 for any iritant gas. None of which is RAW, but come on, it's Dumpshock and you asked. *grin*

Kerenshara

Aug 5 2009, 04:53 AM

Where did I remember seing somebody quote <1% of the population is Awakened?

Anyhow, that's cannon as of now. But let's look a little closer, shall we?

According to some older fluff, something over half of the Awakened are adpets. Many aren't properly trained and weed themselves out through drain or whatever. So let's say that 35% of the potential pool are actually full mages.

Now, the stats are a bell curve, and MAGic is a stat. That means that the AVERAGE MAGic stat in the 6^th World is a 3 (68.2% fall in here). One standard deviation over is a 4 (13.6%). Two is a 5, where PC Mages right out of the book start, and most corporate security mages are. So at two standard deviations, we're at 2.1% of the total MAGE population.

So, what we have is 2.1% of 35% of 1%... my math says 0.0770% of the population are force 5 or better (6+ represent about 0.0035%). Let's say a population in North America of 300,000,000 (after VITAS et al), that's 231,000 MAGic 5+ mages to go around.

Now, that's just raw magical power, not training. How many have spellcasting at "Professional" or better? 191,730 is 83%. So, they aren't dime a dozen, but neither are the rare as hen's teeth. Corps can afford to have a solid number of mages on-site for security at any given location, probably four for rotating shifts and swing; That assumes the facility rates full-time magical protection on-site. But remember, those numbers include a higher-than-average percentage of "independents" due to the nature of magic and how people seem to shape their lives around it. And even the ones working for the corp aren't all in security. On the contrary, many are going to be in R&D. And even if they're in security, a large percentage are going to be doing personal protection for high-level suits and so forth.

Anyhow, I thought I'd just toss that out there.

HappyDaze

Aug 5 2009, 05:29 AM

An image link (and earbud speakers) are really unneccesary if you're going with trodes and a sim module. You can still get the video (and audio) input directly and just bypass the eyes (and ears).

Kerenshara

Aug 5 2009, 05:42 AM

QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Aug 5 2009, 12:29 AM)

An image link (and earbud speakers) are really unneccesary if you're going with trodes and a sim module. You can still get the video (and audio) input directly and just bypass the eyes (and ears).

For the input, sure, but what about the X-Compensation? That's a major factor, too.

HappyDaze

Aug 5 2009, 05:55 AM

QUOTE

but what about the X-Compensation?

The what? Is this in a SR product?

The sim module works via DNI and can accept responses to the input it provides. With a sim module and trodes, you take care of all AR input/output needs.

Kerenshara

Aug 5 2009, 06:23 AM

QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Aug 5 2009, 12:55 AM)

The what? Is this in a SR product?

The sim module works via DNI and can accept responses to the input it provides. With a sim module and trodes, you take care of all AR input/output needs.

Sorry, I was using X for "whatever", so since that didn't work...

A SimModule doesn't do ddrek about FlareCompensation or SoundCompensation, for which glasses and earbuds are still a good choice unless you're going cyber there too.

toolbox

Aug 5 2009, 06:43 AM

Double post.

toolbox

Aug 5 2009, 06:43 AM

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 4 2009, 10:23 PM)

A SimModule doesn't do ddrek about FlareCompensation or SoundCompensation, for which glasses and earbuds are still a good choice unless you're going cyber there too.

Right. All he said was that image link and earbud speakers are redundant with DNI, which they are. You don't need an image link, or speakers in your sensor earbuds, because you can use DNI to interface with the sensor data directly. Use earbuds and glasses, but don't pay for interfaces you won't need.

CanadianWolverine

Aug 5 2009, 06:57 AM

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 4 2009, 09:17 PM)

[ Spoiler ]

Hmmm, that's a good question. For the purposes of this thread, let's call it a significant initial investment in material costs which are not effectively recoverable except through use. An example would be a custom-built dredging crane built just for you; Other than you using it, there's not much way to really recoup the investment since nobody else will buy it. So figure... 10,000Â¥ total? That has to include a good comlink with a good OS with an above-average firewall, encryption and ECCM and an agent to run it for the ID10T using it, a good armored jacket with a couple points in anti-electricity and chemical protection, the glasses as fitted out, ear buds with damping (audio link would seem an automatic feature, neh?), a high end heavy pistol with factory SmartLink (Predator IV works) or a good general purpose factory SmartLinked SMG (Colt Cobra TZ-118 at 650Â¥, or the SCK Model 100 at 750Â¥). Say corp issue armor jackets include a biomonitor. Ammunition, extra magazines, patrol belt (have you ever priced a real-world paramilitary gun belt?), Handcuffs, non-lethal spray, a tazer, a Rtg 1 Medkit (little belt thingie) with a trauma patch. Oh, a really good flashlight, a nightstick, a decent folding knife, extra magazines, MAYBE a FFBA shirt, badge reader w/ fingerprint and/or retinal scanner, comfortable shoes (seriously, if their feet hurt, they won't stand and be attentive, and will tend to cut patrols short), a pretty "Respe't mai ah-thor-ih-tie" badge... yeah, that's most of it. A lot of it's nickle and dime, but it adds up pretty quickly. So let's say a "capital investment" is any single item over 5,000Â¥ give or take, or any batch of items worth collectively more than 10,000Â¥? Cybereyes Rtg 2 with Lowlight, Thermal, Smartlink, Flare Comp is 4,750Â¥, so less than capital. If the corp's willing to pick up the tab for cyber, go ahead and call it 20,000Â¥ overall for kit and cyber. Remember the datajack, and a SimModule *EDIT:I originally put in SimRig because I was typing without the benefit of Holy Caffiene. Sorry. Thanks for the catch, KCKitsune* (for training as well as desk work) can be an option inside an implanted comlink for cheap and no extra essence loss. That's a Level 1 guard in my book. Guards who aren't making enough to live on would have skills of about 2, not much more than hired muscle. If they sprung for cyber, then they're going to have 3's in most important basic areas, like their guns and perception (if you're not training them to keep an eye out, why did you bother with them in the first place).

SWAT guys are going to have 4's in the important stuff, their cyber's going to be Alpha, they will arrive with Ares Alpha assault rifles or the equivalent, their armor's going to be at least light security armor with a helmet if not light military armor (lower encumbrance). These guys are also going to have either bio or chrome stat boosts and built-in armor, extra init passes, and probably some other surprises. Might be an adept amongst them. Definitely a mage.

And beyond the SWAT response team are things like, oh, let's say, Ares Firewatch. Betaware, and lots of it. Heavy weapons, military armor with all the trimmings. If they call out THESE guns, all I can do is quote Corben Dallas from The 5th Element: "I don't know what you did to piss these guys off, lady, but they are REALLY pissed off!"

Is this starting to come together for you?

Oh my, yes! Hehe, that about sums it up, don't it? Those little details are giving me a feel for the life of this guy or gal on guard duty. In fact, it is almost starting to sound like some Shadow Runners don't even need to put them to sleep, let alone kill on sight, it might do them a whole lot more good to just talk nicely to the meta-person and offer them a bribe to look the other way, with promises they won't leave any mess that their boss will find in the morning. Or if there is going to be a mess, offer to make it look like the guard resisted so they are cool with the boss and put em to sleep. Then you do as little damage to the corps bottom line, the guard gets their life and a cut to feed their family. Even more ideal? Perhaps convincing the guard of this where hangs out off duty?

QUOTE

That's another, older thread. Say you have the SmartLink emulator running on your comlink (general consensus was a RTG 1 "rare" program at 500Â¥), then you could theoretically drop the SmartLink, but if they hack your comlink... On the other hand, if they have time to hack your comlink to disable your SmartLink emulation program, you're probably in such deep drek the rest is just insult to injury.

Hmm, so am I way off in thinking the Image Link would give one access to the images coming from the other vision mods in the Goggles and the Smartlink could let you switch between those vision mods? And that the Goggles would protect the Contacts from...

QUOTE

Here, glitches, or a check whenever gas/smoke is used... have YOU ever worn contacts to a smoky pub? They don't have to come to become useless; having your eyes water so badly you can't see and sting so badly you take a -1 to all actions? And add 1 for any iritant gas. None of which is RAW, but come on, it's Dumpshock and you asked. *grin*

... that fun right there? Goggles are what are used against gases when protestors face off with the riot police, right? I must admit however, that I haven't worn Contacts or Glasses IRL but I was hoping to gloss over that this being some futuristic dystopian fictional fantasy. Though it does make sense, eyes start tearing up or go underwater, you are in trouble - heck, those things can slide out of place all the time, right, unless I am mistaken having not worn them myself

Say, can one overlap the vision mods so you can see the enviroment on all the different levels (normal, low, thermal, ultra) at the same time?

Oh, and if you wonder why I am not thinking "Go Team Cyber Eyes/Ears" by this point, with me thinking about covering all the bases, maybe the character doesn't like Cyber or maybe its Adept, but not thinking of Magician because reading this thread allowed me to better understand seeing Optical/Astral images is paramount for them, rather than seeing Digital images.

Cthulhudreams

Aug 5 2009, 06:59 AM

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 5 2009, 02:53 PM)

Corps can afford to have a solid number of mages on-site for security at any given location, probably four for rotating shifts and swing; That assumes the facility rates full-time magical protection on-site.
Anyhow, I thought I'd just toss that out there.

You need 5 guys to cover a position 24/7 once you factor in leave. But realistically mages and spirits can just astral travel at huge speeds. You'd hold them centrally in a police station or other facility and they'd astrally project. Having a couple of mages following you around in the astral is functionally the same as being dead, just that you don't know it yet. There is no way to actually kill them (if your mage goes astral he just walks into 2 guys waiting for him with their astral gank packs and spirits), and if you don't kill them, one of them can just churn out low force spirits endlessly until you run out of ammo or die.

The logic reason for there to be lots of magicians in the shadows is that just being a magician gives you a useful shadowrun skill, even if you've had pretty much no training. There a hundreds of thousands of street kids in the barrens. Some will be magical. They have a huge leg up even if they can only summon force 2 spirits, thus they are more likely to survive.

Conversely, becoming good at the other stuff shadowrunners do - like being a 250k nuyen street sammie, or a top notch hacker - actually requires significant monetary investment. Where the hell does a barrens kid get that? Simply put: he never does. Thus the shadows have access to a positively ludicrous number of mages, compared to the other skillsets you might be looking for.

And magic is essential for shadowrunning - if you're only availible mage could only summon F3 spirits and couldn't do much of anything else, he'd still be on the team.

Mäx

Aug 5 2009, 09:03 AM

QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 5 2009, 04:53 AM)

So the Big Scary Guys sit at the local police station until someone shoots at John the Paratrooper at Facility A, B or C.

Except that the local police station usually is a part of a rival corp and their people have no business inside your R&D-lab.
Ares is definedly not gonna call the cops when runners hit thier facility in down-town Seattle.

And alos you seem to be really obsessed with that image of runners coming over the facilitys wall carrying assault rifles and plastic explosive, even though most of the time that wont be the situation.

Cthulhudreams

Aug 5 2009, 09:32 AM

The reality is if the runners come over the wall with some gear and chameoleon suits, you have no idea what they are going to do, unless you are telepathic. Maybe they are going to kill the CEO? Maybe they are going to steal the R&D behind the new Ford Tauras. Maybe they are after your multibillion dollar cyberzombie research program output. Maybe they want to blow your cyberzombie research program up.

It all looks the same to the security guard. I mean heck, how can he tell the difference a runner group with a shaman and some eco terrorists?

And yes, you make a solid point about the lack of synergies between HTR teams - but the other option is just letting the other guy walk into your R&D facility and not doing anything. If the runners can just shoot their way in, they will do that and steal ONE BILLION dollars worth of stuff off you. One billion dollars is a big sum of money. LAPD has 6 HTR teams... maybe Ares only has one, because it only owns a small amount of the city. Maybe Ares has three, and Horizon is happy to contract almost of their HTR because most of it is super mega malls, and they have 1 team to handle the three technology parks they have.

But seriously, what is the altenative? Do nothing? That is actually what you are suggesting, because we've ruled out as have overwhelming force at each facility as too expensive, because having 1/3rd the force at a central location is too expensive. IN your world as a shadowrunner, I wouldn't bother with being subtle. I'd just shoot my way in. The nearest Horizon response team is in another country, and the police is Lone Star, so Horizon won't let them in despite me wrecking their shit.

The guards at the gates are just rentacops, and I can easily kill them. R&D facilities would be a joke. Stealth would useless. And what are you going to do about it?

I cannot belive I am the only person that thinks that just maybe the corps would take measures not to let you walk away with that sort of investment.

DuctShuiTengu

Aug 5 2009, 12:16 PM

QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 5 2009, 11:32 AM)

The reality is if the runners come over the wall with some gear and chameoleon suits, you have no idea what they are going to do, unless you are telepathic. Maybe they are going to kill the CEO? Maybe they are going to steal the R&D behind the new Ford Tauras. Maybe they are after your multibillion dollar cyberzombie research program output. Maybe they want to blow your cyberzombie research program up.

Put yourself in the mind of the guy in charge of the HTR teams a moment.

A guard at one of the sites you're responsible for providing overwatch for has just called in to report having seen a group of people coming over the perimeter wall. He thinks there's six, but can only confirm two and says they were carrying some kind of heavy weapons - from how panicked he is, you're fairly certain that some of the larger SMGs would be getting called heavy weapons right now.

You're responsible for 100 sites in the area, which includes 25,000 meters of other perimeter walls that could be getting scaled, 100,000 square meters of rooftops that could be getting landed on, and 1,000,000 meters of hallways which intruders might have gotten into without tripping perimeter alarms. Any or all of these could be drawing alerts in the next hour.

You have 100 very scary men, 50 of whom are actually on duty. They're currently on low pay since they're just waiting for something to come up. The other 50 are off duty but can be called in if needed - though this puts them back on the clock as well.

So, there's the situation you're facing. How many people do you need to send to deal with this? How many of them do you need to hold back for the other disasters that could happen? How big of a response can you send without needing to explain it to your boss later? And be able to explain it to him well enough to not suffer any repercussions worse than being chewed out? Well enough to not get fired? How much blame can you shift if the response you send is too little? Too much? So, what do you do?

Cthulhudreams

Aug 5 2009, 12:41 PM

It would depend on the guy I had out there. The reality is I'd have hardened pros either being the entire team or forming the backbone of the team on site. And you bet your arse if I had a former US Army Ranger, Green Beret, Australian infantry staff seregent, or US Airforce FAC or similar get me on the line and say "I've got 6 contacts with military weapons and chameleon suits cloaking into the base. We have definite visuals on two, including a potential mage and large troll, requesting urgent magical assistance and a HTR" I'd give him a damn HTR.

If it was Barney the rentacop, I might be more cautious - but the point I was belaboring before was that in environments where people actually get shot at by bad men, you don't have barney the fat and panicy rentacop out there. You have trained professionals out there. They've probably be shot at before. If it's the head of the onsite team he will damn straight be a veteran, and preferably of urban warfare.

HappyDaze

Aug 5 2009, 01:00 PM

QUOTE

Now, the stats are a bell curve, and MAGic is a stat. That means that the AVERAGE MAGic stat in the 6th World is a 3 (68.2% fall in here). One standard deviation over is a 4 (13.6%). Two is a 5, where PC Mages right out of the book start, and most corporate security mages are. So at two standard deviations, we're at 2.1% of the total MAGE population.

The Magic stat has a maximum of 6 only in non-Initiates. There's no hard rule, but I've heard some suggest that virtually all professional magicians will Intiate at some point. Without guidelines on how common Initiation is and what the breakdowns are per Grade, it's really impossible to set an 'average' Magic stat. For example, using your breakdown if we assume the average corp wage mage to be Grade 2, then his statistcal average Magic has shifted up to 5. Arguments as to what's a reasonable Grade for such magicians are wholly subjective and in the hands of individual GMs.

StealthSigma

Aug 5 2009, 01:09 PM

QUOTE (CanadianWolverine @ Aug 4 2009, 09:28 PM)

Ahh cool, thanks for helping me improve my understanding of the corp sec guards. The Vision Mag besides cheap cost and avail, I figured a guard walking perimeter might like it in open spaces. Indoors, yeah, seems totally silly and the smartgun system would be way better, can take shots around corners/from behind cover that way a far less penalty, net +1 IIRC in the thread I asked about it. Just picked it on the idea of being cost effective aka cheap. Speaking of cheap, what is a capital investment? That is the SWAT team guys, right? Optimized out the wazoo and bringing the big guns with skills to match?

I would hazard that professional level 4 class grunts would be capital investments. You're beginning to get into specialized training, more wares, and better equipment at this point. They're also uncommon to see.

QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 5 2009, 04:32 AM)

The reality is if the runners come over the wall with some gear and chameoleon suits, you have no idea what they are going to do, unless you are telepathic. Maybe they are going to kill the CEO? Maybe they are going to steal the R&D behind the new Ford Tauras. Maybe they are after your multibillion dollar cyberzombie research program output. Maybe they want to blow your cyberzombie research program up.

It all looks the same to the security guard. I mean heck, how can he tell the difference a runner group with a shaman and some eco terrorists?

And yes, you make a solid point about the lack of synergies between HTR teams - but the other option is just letting the other guy walk into your R&D facility and not doing anything. If the runners can just shoot their way in, they will do that and steal ONE BILLION dollars worth of stuff off you. One billion dollars is a big sum of money. LAPD has 6 HTR teams... maybe Ares only has one, because it only owns a small amount of the city. Maybe Ares has three, and Horizon is happy to contract almost of their HTR because most of it is super mega malls, and they have 1 team to handle the three technology parks they have.

But seriously, what is the altenative? Do nothing? That is actually what you are suggesting, because we've ruled out as have overwhelming force at each facility as too expensive, because having 1/3rd the force at a central location is too expensive. IN your world as a shadowrunner, I wouldn't bother with being subtle. I'd just shoot my way in. The nearest Horizon response team is in another country, and the police is Lone Star, so Horizon won't let them in despite me wrecking their shit.

The guards at the gates are just rentacops, and I can easily kill them. R&D facilities would be a joke. Stealth would useless. And what are you going to do about it?

I cannot belive I am the only person that thinks that just maybe the corps would take measures not to let you walk away with that sort of investment.

I don't think corps would have those level of teams based on site unless it fell under one of the following two categories. The site is high value and high profile, such as a huge R&D facility or headquarters. The other reason would be that they suspect or know someone is going to hit that site. You wouldn't put these people on a low profile, high value site because it would attract undue attention, which would destroy the point of operating the facility low profile. In the sites that don't fall under those categories, the corps would invest in delay tactics to allow the HRT class teams time to arrive and deal with the threat.

Kerenshara

Aug 5 2009, 03:06 PM

QUOTE (CanadianWolverine @ Aug 5 2009, 01:57 AM)

Oh my, yes! Hehe, that about sums it up, don't it? Those little details are giving me a feel for the life of this guy or gal on guard duty. In fact, it is almost starting to sound like some Shadow Runners don't even need to put them to sleep, let alone kill on sight, it might do them a whole lot more good to just talk nicely to the meta-person and offer them a bribe to look the other way, with promises they won't leave any mess that their boss will find in the morning. Or if there is going to be a mess, offer to make it look like the guard resisted so they are cool with the boss and put em to sleep. Then you do as little damage to the corps bottom line, the guard gets their life and a cut to feed their family. Even more ideal? Perhaps convincing the guard of this where hangs out off duty?

Wait... you mean you've never done that?

QUOTE

Hmm, so am I way off in thinking the Image Link would give one access to the images coming from the other vision mods in the Goggles and the Smartlink could let you switch between those vision mods? And that the Goggles would protect the Contacts from...

You're overthinking again. ImageLink is to bring in information OUTSIDE the device with the 'Link. So if you had an Imaging Scope on your rifle with Thermal capabilities, you could link it to your ImageLink in the goggles. SmartLink is primarily processing software and a dedicated radio chanel whose purpose is to talk continuously with the SmartGun and generate an LCOS (Lead Computing Optica Sight) to tell you where your bullets will land if you pull the trigger in that instant. And the goggles MIGHT protect your eyes,if there's a good seal... ever worn a gas mask? Better question: any experience with HazMat and airborne infectious disease quarantine protocol? Lots of people who were trained to wear a gas mask still don't achieve a perfect seal. But a perfect seal means complete contact, and that's slightly less than comfortable for long wear.

QUOTE

... that fun right there? Goggles are what are used against gases when protestors face off with the riot police, right? Um, no. Full face gas mask. I must admit however, that I haven't worn Contacts or Glasses IRL but I was hoping to gloss over that this being some futuristic dystopian fictional fantasy. Though it does make sense, eyes start tearing up or go underwater, you are in trouble - heck, those things can slide out of place all the time, right, unless I am mistaken having not worn them myself

Precisely.

Say, can one overlap the vision mods so you can see the enviroment on all the different levels (normal, low, thermal, ultra) at the same time?

Why physiclly overlap when a computer (read: decent comlink) can integrate them for you so you don't get sensory overload or data overwrite? You can only process so much natively... which is why the fluff used to suggest that magical enhancement was marginally better, not because of quality, which technology cleaned up a decade ago, but because of how it presents the information ORGANICLY to the brain, meaning you can get more us of the information. Does this have a game diference? Only if your GM says so and goes with the "best of" vision penalties. But it's important to how I play my character: I try to visualize what they are actively perceiving, which is why I'm such a proponent of the SimModule as a means to view information as a HUD (Heads Up Display) over your real vision, as it can "focus" the information at "infinity" so you can always read it without having to concentrate, and adjust the settings automatically and make it transparent. I suppose you could get most of the same benefits with an ImageLink, but I still see that as an overwrite as opposed to an integration.

QUOTE

Oh, and if you wonder why I am not thinking "Go Team Cyber Eyes/Ears" by this point, with me thinking about covering all the bases, maybe the character doesn't like Cyber or maybe its Adept, but not thinking of Magician because reading this thread allowed me to better understand seeing Optical/Astral images is paramount for them, rather than seeing Digital images.

Um, if they pay essence for the eyes, they can still perceive astral. Astral Sight technically isn't "vision" at all - it doesn't actually get processed in the visual cortex. SimRigs wouldn't record it, for example, because it's not a traditional physical "sense". And trust me, mages need to see those digital images too... like not dropping that area spell so Cpl. Unlucky gets fried AGAIN.

Kerenshara

Aug 5 2009, 03:27 PM

QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 5 2009, 01:59 AM)

You need 5 guys to cover a position 24/7 once you factor in leave. But realistically mages and spirits can just astral travel at huge speeds. You'd hold them centrally in a police station or other facility and they'd astrally project. Having a couple of mages following you around in the astral is functionally the same as being dead, just that you don't know it yet. There is no way to actually kill them (if your mage goes astral he just walks into 2 guys waiting for him with their astral gank packs and spirits), and if you don't kill them, one of them can just churn out low force spirits endlessly until you run out of ammo or die.

The logic reason for there to be lots of magicians in the shadows is that just being a magician gives you a useful shadowrun skill, even if you've had pretty much no training. There a hundreds of thousands of street kids in the barrens. Some will be magical. They have a huge leg up even if they can only summon force 2 spirits, thus they are more likely to survive.

Conversely, becoming good at the other stuff shadowrunners do - like being a 250k nuyen street sammie, or a top notch hacker - actually requires significant monetary investment. Where the hell does a barrens kid get that? Simply put: he never does. Thus the shadows have access to a positively ludicrous number of mages, compared to the other skillsets you might be looking for.

And magic is essential for shadowrunning - if you're only availible mage could only summon F3 spirits and couldn't do much of anything else, he'd still be on the team.

First: I've worked ... doesn't matter where, but the rotation was 24/7/365 with four shifts. If we needed relief, you brought in extras.
Second: We're back to "What the drek is your team mage doing to earn their cut, anyhow?!" So they can just follow you without problems? If they're staying close enough not to lose you at highway speeds with all the other astral sitnatures flying by, then your mage is certain to notice them tagging along. Astrally perceive, so they're still in their bodies, and mana bolt the joker back to their body. If you have a full mage on the team who isn't periodically checking your back trail for astral tails, they aren't doing their job. "You are the weakest link. Good bye." or if you prefer "You're Fired." As to the "astral gank packs", what your describing is one of the "I'm a mage, I win!" things I get so tired of hearing about. If that's the way you think you win, why doesn't the team mage have their own gank pack? More to the point, as a PC, why isn't their gank pack better? If you think the corps have initiate grade mages playing security dog with summoned F7+ spirits on "Ready 5", you're kidding yourself. But that's another thread I'd rather not get to. Another couple things to consider: once the 'runners are off the property, extrateritoriality no longer applies. Also, once off the property, if it was a DATA steal that just needed to get inside the RF shielded building to the mainframes not linked in any way to the Matrix, you've failed if they get off the property. Hacker hits "Transmit!" and that's that. You need to be stopping the runners inside or at lease on the property.
Third: I'm not sure what the paragraph about the street kid mages is about. I never said low MAGic was a problem. I just meant a corp is unlikely to have somebody like that on the payroll as security. Any amount of Mojo on the team is useful. On Kerenshara's team in the IRL game that helped spawn her, we have a full up MAGic 6 mage about to initiate with literally ungodly dice pools in Illusion and Detection. But you would be just amazed how much of a headache I've given the GM with spells under F4 (with overcasting - she's a Mystic Adept favored to Adept right now) when chosen and applied correctly and creatively. As to magic in the shadows, any mage who doesn't get vaccumed up by the corps (or academia) is going to be in the shadows, almost by definition. Magic sets you apart, and if you want to spend time with your own kind, the likelyhood is you'll drift into shadow.
Fourth: Um, I think you're off base on the price thing. First of all, magical materials aren't free. EACH spell is 5,000+ Nuyen. A decent starting grimoire plus apropriate magical lodge isn't free. And a mage still needs a lot of the same gear the other two do, just not as wiz: a good comlink, a good pistol, good armor, glasses/goggles with the sensors to make up for what they can't do with magic (yet), etc. So they aren't spending $250,000 on chrome. Do you think the training necessary to get to Sorcery 4 and MAGic 5 is easy? It's just as "unavailable" as the gear a sammy needs. Besides which, starting characters aren't "street kids", unless you wrote them up that way. Sure, there are punk so-called shadowrunners, but look at the comments from the old hands in places like the Street Samurai Catalog: nothing but derision for the wannabes. And a REAL hacker doesn't PAY full price for their software; They write it themselves. But the chaacter generation rules make you pay full price to keep things even.
Finally: Um, as to your final point, the run wouldn't happen. It's a known fact the corps have initiate grade mages on-call full-time for a 30-second response who bring their gank packs of spirits every time. Runners are above all one thing: survivors. Going in against your idea of magical secuity without a full-up mage of your own is a sucicide missions, and the morons would be weeded out REAL quik, because nothing is more darwinian than the shadows.

SaintHax

Aug 5 2009, 03:41 PM

I'm the OP, and ... this is confusing. Where is the mention of glasses and goggles??

hobgoblin

Aug 5 2009, 03:51 PM

somewhere around page 3-4...

kanislatrans

Aug 5 2009, 04:03 PM

lol, welcome to Dumpshock!

Home of 36 page threads on the RAW for proper hot dog toppings that eventually end up discussing cold fission and ballistics of anti tank weapons.

Honestly, it's one of the things that keep me here.

Its like riding bareback in a barrens brothel, you never know what your gonna get.

Kerenshara

Aug 5 2009, 04:29 PM

QUOTE (SaintHax @ Aug 5 2009, 10:41 AM)

I'm the OP, and ... this is confusing. Where is the mention of glasses and goggles??

Actually, in the title of the thread: "Glasses vs. Goggles"

*thbbbbbbbt*

And like kanislatrans said, welcome to Dumpshock.

*grin*

CanadianWolverine

Aug 5 2009, 04:33 PM

QUOTE (SaintHax @ Aug 5 2009, 08:41 AM)

I'm the OP, and ... this is confusing. Where is the mention of glasses and goggles??

Hehe, I hope you will notice I have been trying to bring up Contacts, Glasses, and Goggles as much as possible, especially with regards to "Trip Wire" Guards at target A, B, or C.

But Kerenshara has me covered there, full on satiated my curiosity, even though some of my brain is still mulling it over to grok it.

Oh! That reminds me...

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 5 2009, 08:06 AM)

Wait... you mean you've never done that?

Hehe, yup, this newb's first experience at this game was him trying to be sneaky and not piss off the corps, only to have the rest of his team open up with deadly sniper fire on those poor unsuspecting guards, at which point like in Heat or Ronin, I figured it was full on and might as well pop some tops myself... on a job I thought we should have steered clear of in the first place without better preparation materials from the J. *sigh*

Heh, now I am thinking it would be interesting if a team who shoots first (to kill) poor trip wire guards like that, who don't even get Glasses to help them out, might find some personal effects on them when they loot their corpse, like a picture of their child or something else to firmly root them back in SR that the guard really didn't deserve what they did to them and on top of that the corp may come hunting for them for the property and loss of revenue damage.

All this thinking of Contacts, Glasses, and Goggles ... and the corps not even wanting to give their trip wire guards a cheap set up of one of the above, if they do it starts to near capital investment when it adds up and it better be a higher valued facility with higher potential revenue streams or the member of the board's pet project if that is the case ... has got me thinking the guard's family might try to buy them better equipment for the job if they can, sorta like some families do for their loved ones who are over seas in high risk areas. Came across that when I was reading about something called Dragon Skin that was featured in that Discovery Channel show, Future Weapons.

Oh, and speaking of gear, yeah, Kerenshara, I don't have any experience with achieving the perfect seal for Goggles, Gas Mask (full face), or Hazmat suit ... though I wish I had, damn construction clean up jobs and a boss who cuts corners protective gear & procedures ... rat & racoon feces, concrete & hazardous old construction materials dust, mold, and human remains *shudders* I quit that shit so fast the first time I felt violently ill, I already experienced living with mold from flooding before that, dangerous freaking black mold *double shudder*

Kerenshara

Aug 5 2009, 04:56 PM

QUOTE (CanadianWolverine @ Aug 5 2009, 11:33 AM)

Hehe, I hope you will notice I have been trying to bring up Contacts, Glasses, and Goggles as much as possible, especially with regards to "Trip Wire" Guards at target A, B, or C.

But Kerenshara has me covered there, full on satiated my curiosity, even though some of my brain is still mulling it over to grok it.

Emphasis mine.

OK, so they're a literate nugget. *grins* Glad somebody's still reading Heinlein.

kanislatrans

Aug 5 2009, 08:57 PM

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 5 2009, 11:56 AM)

OK, so they're a literate nugget. *grins* Glad somebody's still reading Heinlein.

should be mandatory reading from 4th grade on as far as I'm concerned.....um, and you should wear goggles,glasses , or contacts while reading Heinlein...(see, I stayed on topic!)

Kerenshara

Aug 5 2009, 09:14 PM

QUOTE (kanislatrans @ Aug 5 2009, 03:57 PM)

should be mandatory reading from 4th grade on as far as I'm concerned.....um, and you should wear goggles,glasses , or contacts while reading Heinlein...(see, I stayed on topic!)

*Sighs and smacks kanislatrans with a large tuna*

Cthulhudreams

Aug 5 2009, 10:44 PM

QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 5 2009, 11:09 PM)

I don't think corps would have those level of teams based on site unless it fell under one of the following two categories. The site is high value and high profile, such as a huge R&D facility or headquarters. The other reason would be that they suspect or know someone is going to hit that site. You wouldn't put these people on a low profile, high value site because it would attract undue attention, which would destroy the point of operating the facility low profile. In the sites that don't fall under those categories, the corps would invest in delay tactics to allow the HRT class teams time to arrive and deal with the threat.

You don't have a team of top guys, you just have 1 or 2 to form the backbone of the team, give the guy running the HTR confidence in the on the ground reporting and make sure things are 'done right.'

Just to get something down upfront - in my world, shadowrunner teams don't shoplift at the supermega mart. If you're hiring a merry band of highly trained professional criminals, you are doing something dangerous with them. The targets of typical shadowrun missions are multi million or billion nuyen targets (except some of the kidnap some girl things, but then again that mostly happens in mexico today so judging real values is hard. But organised crime is big business today, so reasonable to assume it is in the future).

KCKitsune

Aug 5 2009, 10:45 PM

QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 5 2009, 08:41 AM)

It would depend on the guy I had out there. The reality is I'd have hardened pros either being the entire team or forming the backbone of the team on site. And you bet your arse if I had a former US Army Ranger, Green Beret, Australian infantry staff seregent, or US Airforce FAC or similar get me on the line and say "I've got 6 contacts with military weapons and chameleon suits cloaking into the base. We have definite visuals on two, including a potential mage and large troll, requesting urgent magical assistance and a HTR" I'd give him a damn HTR.

OK, the Runners, having done their homework, use creative bit of Illusion using a Troll sized drone and physical mask (quickened), along with other goodies and tricks to make that uber guard BELIEVE that a full scale assault is hitting this facility.

While the HTR team is coming down on the distraction like the hand of God, that team CAN'T be brought down on another location that the Runners are really hitting. They sneak in, do their business, and then leave. If the feces hits the rotary air circulator, then the Runners know that they have a little bit more time before a HTR team can get to them.

Cthulhudreams

Aug 5 2009, 10:49 PM

This would be a good idea. Reality is you could cut out the illusion and just set off a car bomb at location X while you are stealthily infilitrating location Y and have much the same effect. The guards locally would step up their guard as something big is going down, but management would be pretty distracted.

It is classic misdirection and a commendable idea? Just need to risk manage it a bit - if you're scoping out facility Y AND X that is double the chance of Corporation Z's counter surveillance teams noticing you are scoping out their facilities, but if you can get away with it you'd certainly do it.

DuctShuiTengu

Aug 6 2009, 10:11 AM

QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Aug 6 2009, 12:45 AM)

OK, the Runners, having done their homework, use creative bit of Illusion using a Troll sized drone and physical mask (quickened), along with other goodies and tricks to make that uber guard BELIEVE that a full scale assault is hitting this facility.

While the HTR team is coming down on the distraction like the hand of God, that team CAN'T be brought down on another location that the Runners are really hitting. They sneak in, do their business, and then leave. If the feces hits the rotary air circulator, then the Runners know that they have a little bit more time before a HTR team can get to them.

Step that idea up one more notch: Knight Errant P4 modified to have the distraction equipment from the Smokecloud (we want better speed than the Smokecloud gives us) backed up by a Spirit of Man assigned to use the Trid Phantasm spell to reinforce the illusion of an attack. Depending on how your GM counts such things, you could potentially argue that providing magical back-up everywhere that the P4 pretends to be attacking is one service (probably not, but the rules are vague enough for it to be possible) and run the HTR teams ragged by "attacking" one place just long enough to trigger a response (you are monitoring their efforts to call the HTR people, yes?) before running off and launching another "attack" somewhere else.

On the other hand, if the Runner team botches things badly enough that the HTR people can get an appropriate response to the site before they leave (which is their job, so they should be good at doing this, at least when someone isn't deliberately blocking their efforts), their best bet, at that point, is to hope that the HTR team is interested in taking prisoners.

hobgoblin

Aug 6 2009, 10:59 AM

QUOTE (kanislatrans @ Aug 5 2009, 10:57 PM)

should be mandatory reading from 4th grade on as far as I'm concerned.....um, and you should wear goggles,glasses , or contacts while reading Heinlein...(see, I stayed on topic!)

meh, as if school required reading is not dry enough already...

Cardul

Aug 6 2009, 02:56 PM

Eh.. my shadowrun motto: There is no problem so small it cannot be solved by a kilogram of C4

Kerenshara

Aug 6 2009, 02:59 PM

QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 6 2009, 05:59 AM)

meh, as if school required reading is not dry enough already...

Not everything I had to read in school was an awful chore. Some of it was actually somewhat enjoyable. And 1984 should absolutely be required reading for every person in the United States. And if Stranger In A Strange Land was actually required reading, Americans MIGHT just be able to have a reasonable debate about sex and the laws that surround it; I'd like to hear somebody use Heinlein's book as the basis for a response rather than the one so many seem so fond of thumping at ther rest of us heathens from their street corner soap boxes.

Kerenshara

Aug 6 2009, 03:01 PM

QUOTE (Cardul @ Aug 6 2009, 09:56 AM)

Eh.. my shadowrun motto: There is no problem so small it cannot be solved by a kilogram of C4

"There is no obstacle which can not be neutralized by the propper and judicious application of high explosives."

StealthSigma

Aug 6 2009, 03:05 PM

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 6 2009, 10:01 AM)

"There is no obstacle which can not be neutralized by the propper and judicious application of high explosives."

Why use explosives? I prefer Tungsten Telephone Poles dropped from Orbit.

Kerenshara

Aug 6 2009, 03:18 PM

QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 6 2009, 10:05 AM)

Why use explosives? I prefer Tungsten Telephone Poles dropped from Orbit.

QUOTE (Jean Baptiste Emanuel Zorg - The Fifth Element (1997))

"I hate warriors, too narrow-minded. I'll tell you what I do like though: a killer, a dyed-in-the-wool killer. Cold blooded, clean, methodical and thorough. Now a real killer, when he picked up the ZF-1, would've immediately asked about the little red button on the bottom of the gun."

Your response immediately called that line to mind, I'm not sure why. Maybe because a Thor is so... indscriminate? Even the modern USAF is starting to go with smaller bombs that are just more precise. Of course, the ultimate in precision obstacle removal, if that obstacle happens to me a (meta)human, is still probably the sniper's single bullet.

Zaranthan

Aug 6 2009, 03:46 PM

QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 6 2009, 11:05 AM)

Why use explosives? I prefer Tungsten Telephone Poles dropped from Orbit.

That makes it hard to implement plan B.

Brazilian_Shinobi

Aug 6 2009, 04:18 PM

QUOTE (Cardul @ Aug 6 2009, 11:56 AM)

Eh.. my shadowrun motto: There is no problem so small it cannot be solved by a kilogram of C4

Strange, I always thought it was duct tape instead of C4...

StealthSigma

Aug 6 2009, 04:23 PM

QUOTE (Zaranthan @ Aug 6 2009, 10:46 AM)

That makes it hard to implement plan B.

What's plan B? And who needs a plan B when the TTP will obliterate the area around its impact site and penetrate nicely.