Full Version: Glasses vs. Goggles
TBRMInsanity then you must have never played with a DM who doesn't treat corp sec designers as a bunch of drunk monkeys throwing their own poop at a wall. It is fragging easy to virtually shut down a Mage that hasn't at the very least gotten cybereyes. "Pure" Mages are thankfully a thing of the past.
Umm, aren't you in the wrong thread? 
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Jul 30 2009, 11:22 AM) 
3) Image Enhancement
If I'm not mistaken, Image Enhancement takes up more than one slot. A rating 3, I believe, takes 3 slots.
QUOTE (CodeBreaker @ Jul 31 2009, 12:42 AM)
Now, if you take the time pre-run to hack into all the guards 'links and add backdoors, do the same to all the vehicles and such then sure you might be able to be useful in combat. But most of the time it is a good bit easier to just shoot the frakker in the face and be done with it. Shadowrun Hacking is not really all that useful when the bullets are flying (At least not without a fair bit of investment in time. If you find yourself in a stalemate and you have an IP or two to spare, or if the Face can keep the guards busy for a few then yes you can be useful.)
I'm going to disagree on a minor point here:
Hacking hard targets in combat isn't that useful (shooting the guard is usually easier and more effective than hacking them, and your attempts to shoot them will generally compliment your teammates attempts to shoot them better than being halfway through their firewall when they drop). And most security guards and other opponents will be reasonably hard. Hacking or spoofing easy targets, on the other hand, can easily be done in combat - finding ways to use this can be tricky, but is doable. On a recent run, the group's technomancer managed to kill the lights and start blaring heavy metal over the intercom while we were in the middle of a fire-fight. Complete darkness and further penalties to try to locate people based on sound, combined with a rather one-sided distribution on who had thermographic vision gave us a huge edge in what had previously been looking like a challenging fight.
QUOTE
TBRMInsanity then you must have never played with a DM who doesn't treat corp sec designers as a bunch of drunk monkeys throwing their own poop at a wall. It is fragging easy to virtually shut down a Mage that hasn't at the very least gotten cybereyes. "Pure" Mages are thankfully a thing of the past.
Really? Is it generally more than just a few dice of penalties? Do tell us this secret because whatever it is, it should also shut down most of those nasty spirits that lack vision enhancements.
As a matter of fact, vision penalties are one of the most effective ways to counter a powerful spirit without using magic. Beast spirits have low-light, and Man have low-light and thermo, but the rest of them are screwed.
*Turns off the lights*
Doesn't appear to be too effective to Fire Spirits, which are their own light source...
Doesn't appear to be too effective to Fire Spirits, which are their own light source...
I was thinking more along the lines of a thermal smoke grenade.
My 2 
In RL I wear glasses. They do fine as long as you aren't doing anything to strenuous. Even with a sport strap they will come off if you are hanging upside down or catch them on something. Im an Appliance repair tech and in my job, I do that alot.
I got a pair of prescription goggles for when I am climbing around inside dishwashers and refrigerators. they stay put and also offer eye protection from dust,rust and debris. (which is why contacts are completely out of the question.)
speaking of contacts, I have never really liked them in shadowrun, especialy in combat situations.
I always pictured this blonde Elf slitch holding her arms out in the middle of a fire fight and screaming"Nobody move!!! I dropped my contact!!!"
I outfit all of my characters with goggles,even the ones with cyber eyes.
A pair of Chiba Nightshark Combat Goggles™ are the perfect accessory to any outfit .
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B0...mp;s=automotive
In RL I wear glasses. They do fine as long as you aren't doing anything to strenuous. Even with a sport strap they will come off if you are hanging upside down or catch them on something. Im an Appliance repair tech and in my job, I do that alot.
I got a pair of prescription goggles for when I am climbing around inside dishwashers and refrigerators. they stay put and also offer eye protection from dust,rust and debris. (which is why contacts are completely out of the question.)
speaking of contacts, I have never really liked them in shadowrun, especialy in combat situations.
I always pictured this blonde Elf slitch holding her arms out in the middle of a fire fight and screaming"Nobody move!!! I dropped my contact!!!"
I outfit all of my characters with goggles,even the ones with cyber eyes.
A pair of Chiba Nightshark Combat Goggles™ are the perfect accessory to any outfit .
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B0...mp;s=automotive
QUOTE (otakusensei @ Jul 30 2009, 04:13 PM)
Because goggles are sweet?
Let me do some thread-hijacking for a second, but this is exactly the right response to the TS' original question. Much (if not all) of the cyberpunk genre is about style and form over function is an important concept. So it's not unusual that games like Shadowrun will give you many different options that essentially do the same thing. Like Securetech vs Armored clothing. It does the same thing, it just has a different style and flavour. Like not everything needs a rule to be explained and can be left to individual interpretation or design. Goggles over shades is essentially the same thing. Not everything has to have pros and cons that aid you on paper.
Is it bad that I just noticed the pun in the subtitle?
Was that even intentional? 
HappyDaze, I've already covered the actual numbers themselves in an oldler thread but basically a corp keeps piling on the vision mods, uses an effect similiar to flashpacks, ect to hose the Mage's dicepool as much as possible. Then they do the same thing using the Astral Vision Mods in order to keep the Mage from just opening his third eye and targeting spells that way.
Yeah, a Mage would have to be foolish not have cybereyes.
Yeah, a Mage would have to be foolish not have cybereyes.
QUOTE
Yeah, a Mage would have to be foolish not have cybereyes.
A basic set of glasses or contacts with Flare Compensation would do fine since FC is not a type of vision - it's a brief polarization effect that then returns to transparent (optical), and if you're metahuman you've got either L-L or Thermo as a default. You don't really need any more unless you're going into stupidly over-the-top crap (GM dickery). Also, normal vision mods won't mean a thing if you're using astral perception anyway - and getting astral visibility mods up high enough to really interfere takes some work.
I never cease to be amused by cries of "it's not fair" whenever a DM doesn't pretend that the corps are run by a bunch of monkeys throwing poop against a wall. And it really isn't all that hard to jack up the Astral Mods either.
Actually low-light is a 5 point positive quality in runner's companion now. So you don't need to spend essence and cybereyes to get it... granted the cybereyes are probably cheaper in money... but more expensive in magic!
So it's quite viable for the mage to not get cybereyes on that score, and just wear a nice pair of contacts w/ flare comp. And steampunk style telescoping goggles w/ other goodies.
As far as why goggles... gas grenades and other irritants! (you threw tear gas at the guy wearing goggles... what you were expecting his eyes to tear up so he couldn't shoot back...)
So it's quite viable for the mage to not get cybereyes on that score, and just wear a nice pair of contacts w/ flare comp. And steampunk style telescoping goggles w/ other goodies.
As far as why goggles... gas grenades and other irritants! (you threw tear gas at the guy wearing goggles... what you were expecting his eyes to tear up so he couldn't shoot back...)
If I accepted the premise that all you needed was Low Light and Flare Comp you'd have a point, however as it stands cybereyes are still king.
given the 5 point quality, I think with the mods a mage could do better with the cyber eyes, I mean, you can put alot of usful stuff into 1 point of essence, and since you spent essence on the eyes you can cast spells on people you see with thermo ect
QUOTE (Ravor @ Jul 31 2009, 10:52 PM)
I never cease to be amused by cries of "it's not fair" whenever a DM doesn't pretend that the corps are run by a bunch of monkeys throwing poop against a wall. And it really isn't all that hard to jack up the Astral Mods either.
The reason it is GM dickery is because you decide when the corp is magically smart and when they aren't. If the corp is smart enough to vision mod any non cyber eye mage to death the corp is smart enough to pull a bunch of other crap that would put shadowrunners out of business. So why do the smarts always seem to end after they screw just the non cyber mage over, or some other petty bug up his GM ass nit pick.
QUOTE (knasser @ Jul 30 2009, 06:08 PM)
[b]EDIT:[b] Regarding what a magician can get away with - I do as follows: If it's purely optical, there's no problem. If it's purely digital, you can't. And if it's a digital overlay on top of an optical view, e.g. thermographic, running Smart Link system or whatever, then you get vision penalties.
Has there ever been a list of what can be done optically in SR4 tech?
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Aug 1 2009, 09:19 AM)
Has there ever been a list of what can be done optically in SR4 tech?
SR4? No. Not speciffically.
Everything with the exception of Ultra Sound and Radar can be used with optics.
SR3 even had the distinction of magnification electronically and optically.
SR3 even had the distinction of magnification electronically and optically.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 1 2009, 12:27 PM)
Everything with the exception of Ultra Sound and Radar can be used with optics.
SR3 even had the distinction of magnification electronically and optically.
SR3 even had the distinction of magnification electronically and optically.
I can't find a rule that says otherwise, but optical thermo seems weird to me. I really wish they had a chart or something that listed which could be which.
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 1 2009, 10:06 AM)
SR4? No. Not speciffically.
Thanks, I was wandering if I had missed something.
Thermo IS a bit iffy . . but maybe they learned a bit from the natural thermo eyes of dwarves and trolls. Or they used handwavium-technology to do it ^^
Low-light has always been an electronic technology. I have a very difficult time figuring out how it would work as a purely optical technology.
Thermal is a little different because it is strictly a wavelength-perception problem. Now, if you could engineer a material that shifted infared into the visual part of the spectrum through some as-yet-impossible trick of exotic materials science, then I would say you could do it. Be aware, however, that it would be USING the visual spectrum you normally see in, so you would have to choose either-or. You couldn't "layer" it.
Make sense?
Thermal is a little different because it is strictly a wavelength-perception problem. Now, if you could engineer a material that shifted infared into the visual part of the spectrum through some as-yet-impossible trick of exotic materials science, then I would say you could do it. Be aware, however, that it would be USING the visual spectrum you normally see in, so you would have to choose either-or. You couldn't "layer" it.
Make sense?
could be that thermo is seen as passive (anything radiates thermo at some level or other), while ultrasound and radar has to use a active transmitter (ok, they can go passive, but then your probably not going to get a clear set of data about your surroundings).
Question - Does a mage actually have to see the target (With visible light) or just have Line of Sight? Could a Mage use a Lowlight Monocle covering one eye to know at what location to throw the spell, and then just do it? He still has LoS.
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I have a very difficult time figuring out how it would work as a purely optical technology.
You mean, something like cat's eyes is technological in nature? O.o
Lowlight Vision just means you have more rod cells in your eyes.
[ Spoiler ]
so why should Thermographic/Nightvision view NOT be possible without electronics?
And if you stick more rods in your eyes that would be fine. The thing is not electronical or not, but optical or not. ANYTHING which changes/exchanges the light between target and eye of the mage makes it impossible for him to link to the target. Magnification just bends the light... it is still the same. Anysmall layer of electronics or biomaterial which TRANSLATES the infrared/ultrasound into visible light, or creates more/other light depending on input gives you no link to the real object, but to itself. So you can't cast at it.
I would rule anything but mageglasses, periscope and optical magnification can't help a mage. If you have contacts/goggles/shades which allow light to pass AND can show you things with an imagelink/sightmod, you can use them to not stump your toe in the dark or see data... but to cast you have to turn it off and see though, unobstructed.
Just buy yourself cybereyes, dudes. It's worth the magic *g*.
I would rule anything but mageglasses, periscope and optical magnification can't help a mage. If you have contacts/goggles/shades which allow light to pass AND can show you things with an imagelink/sightmod, you can use them to not stump your toe in the dark or see data... but to cast you have to turn it off and see though, unobstructed.
Just buy yourself cybereyes, dudes. It's worth the magic *g*.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 2 2009, 12:21 AM)
You mean, something like cat's eyes is technological in nature? O.o
Lowlight Vision just means you have more rod cells in your eyes.
so why should Thermographic/Nightvision view NOT be possible without electronics?
Lowlight Vision just means you have more rod cells in your eyes.
[ Spoiler ]
so why should Thermographic/Nightvision view NOT be possible without electronics?
Having more rods, however, is not a function of proper eyeware, but of proper eyes. So, it would work as a way to do bioware or geneware that gives low-light vision, but you can't just put an extra set of rods in your glasses if that's what you're using to get low-light.
QUOTE (Technofreak @ Aug 2 2009, 12:19 AM)
Question - Does a mage actually have to see the target (With visible light) or just have Line of Sight? Could a Mage use a Lowlight Monocle covering one eye to know at what location to throw the spell, and then just do it? He still has LoS.
To be able to cast, you need to be able to see the actual target, which is where the issue with optical vs electronic vision enhancements comes in.
Optical enhancements are like normal glasses to correct nearsightedness. They tweak the light to allow you to see where you otherwise would have difficulty doing so.
Electronic enhancements would be more akin to correcting your nearsightedness by displaying an image of what's in front of you at a distance where you can focus.
The first one works for spellcasting, you're still seeing the target. The second does not; you're seeing a computer generated/enhanced image of the target, not the target itself. Cybereyes remove this distinction, since they're considered part of you for magical purposes.
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 1 2009, 06:16 PM)
Thermal is a little different because it is strictly a wavelength-perception problem. Now, if you could engineer a material that shifted infared into the visual part of the spectrum through some as-yet-impossible trick of exotic materials science, then I would say you could do it. Be aware, however, that it would be USING the visual spectrum you normally see in, so you would have to choose either-or. You couldn't "layer" it.
I could see a material being designed that would glow in the visible spectrum when struck with certain wavelengths of light (such as infrared).
QUOTE (Technofreak @ Aug 1 2009, 05:19 PM)
Question - Does a mage actually have to see the target (With visible light) or just have Line of Sight? Could a Mage use a Lowlight Monocle covering one eye to know at what location to throw the spell, and then just do it? He still has LoS.
I've been considering just that question for a couple days, and unless a Dev says otherwise, I'm going to come down and say yes, but it's really a tossup. Theoretically, and I am sure somebody's going to disagree, the mage could just go Astral Perception and drop any direct mana spells in that way, even if it's a penalty.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 1 2009, 05:21 PM)
You mean, something like cat's eyes is technological in nature? O.o
Lowlight Vision just means you have more rod cells in your eyes.
so why should Thermographic/Nightvision view NOT be possible without electronics?
Lowlight Vision just means you have more rod cells in your eyes.
so why should Thermographic/Nightvision view NOT be possible without electronics?
Because they're still replying directly to the central nervous system of the mage. You have to PASS that information to the mage's brain in an organic fashion... or at lease a fashion that cost him essence, thereby essentially making it "natural" to the mana.
Aand we are back at square one.
QUOTE
Cartman: That's it, screw you guys, I'm going home
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 1 2009, 07:07 PM)
Aand we are back at square one.
Oh, come on Stahl, you know every good argument should come back on itself!
And I have no pity for the mages, either: there are spells that can do it at F1! VERY cheap sustaining focus. Then you also get the "magical" bonus we were talking about re: natural/magical vision enhancements. Adepts can buy them at a quarter-point each. What was it Hatchetman said in the Street Sam catalog? "Get some."
I think that every runner should have cyber... even the mages. The idea is to better, faster, and stronger than the opponents that you are going to face. Mages without 'ware are targets.
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Aug 1 2009, 09:14 PM)
I think that every runner should have cyber... even the mages. The idea is to better, faster, and stronger than the opponents that you are going to face. Mages without 'ware are targets.
I throw my vote in with this... always get at least 1 Essence point worth of Cyberware...
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Aug 1 2009, 10:14 PM)
I think that every runner should have cyber... even the mages. The idea is to better, faster, and stronger than the opponents that you are going to face. Mages without 'ware are targets.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 1 2009, 10:58 PM)
I throw my vote in with this... always get at least 1 Essence point worth of Cyberware...
You know, I HATE to say it, but I have to toss in with this. I HATE when you come down to little rules of thumb like that, but it's just too logical. If you're careful, you can pack an INSANE amount of 'ware into 1 point of ESSence. Mages & other LOGic traditions: Cerebral Boosters in improved grades are a steal. Also, see Daredrenaline in Augmentation.
The only exception is if your character had a cultural aversion to the augmentation... say NAN?
Oh, and before anybody poopoohs this, check in the older editions of the game: almost EVERY corporate mage, and MOST of the non-Native shadowrunners (leaving out the starting templates) seemed to have a little ware.
hi hi
The classic, archetypal Optical Low Light Vision.
Seriously though, to achieve optical low light vision you would need a focusing lens to direct a larger quantity of available light towards ones existing retina. It might not be the most practical thing, but it is definitely possible.
The question with a thermographically reactive substance depends on the nature of magical perception in the first place. If you have a substance that shifts infrared into visible wavelengths, is the awakened eye seeing the target, or seeing the substance? Of course some metatypes don't have that problem.
No doubt cyber eyes are an advantage, the question is, are they worth the magic attribute karma? I guess it depends on how many times a mage intends to initiate against how steady the source of karma is.
The classic, archetypal Optical Low Light Vision.
Seriously though, to achieve optical low light vision you would need a focusing lens to direct a larger quantity of available light towards ones existing retina. It might not be the most practical thing, but it is definitely possible.
The question with a thermographically reactive substance depends on the nature of magical perception in the first place. If you have a substance that shifts infrared into visible wavelengths, is the awakened eye seeing the target, or seeing the substance? Of course some metatypes don't have that problem.
No doubt cyber eyes are an advantage, the question is, are they worth the magic attribute karma? I guess it depends on how many times a mage intends to initiate against how steady the source of karma is.
Ahhh the age old question to Twink or not to Twink
You can min-max your character to an awesome degree. If that fits your character concept, feel free. I normally do my best to fulfill my character concept. If 1 point of essence is in character for my mage, technomancer, or adept then I do it, but normally I keep them all pure.
Now my hackers and street sams have 250k nuyen of the finest I can bye. Can you say .01 essence anyone?
You can min-max your character to an awesome degree. If that fits your character concept, feel free. I normally do my best to fulfill my character concept. If 1 point of essence is in character for my mage, technomancer, or adept then I do it, but normally I keep them all pure.
Now my hackers and street sams have 250k nuyen of the finest I can bye. Can you say .01 essence anyone?
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 2 2009, 03:14 AM)
You know, I HATE to say it, but I have to toss in with this. I HATE when you come down to little rules of thumb like that, but it's just too logical. If you're careful, you can pack an INSANE amount of 'ware into 1 point of ESSence. Mages & other LOGic traditions: Cerebral Boosters in improved grades are a steal. Also, see Daredrenaline in Augmentation.
The only exception is if your character had a cultural aversion to the augmentation... say NAN?
Oh, and before anybody poopoohs this, check in the older editions of the game: almost EVERY corporate mage, and MOST of the non-Native shadowrunners (leaving out the starting templates) seemed to have a little ware.
The only exception is if your character had a cultural aversion to the augmentation... say NAN?
Oh, and before anybody poopoohs this, check in the older editions of the game: almost EVERY corporate mage, and MOST of the non-Native shadowrunners (leaving out the starting templates) seemed to have a little ware.
Yes Cerebral Booster is a steal, but I always went with the Synaptic Booster. Yes you might have less dice for Drain, but with the ability to go faster and more times you might just get in the first shot... which might be all that you need.
Also for Drain, you could always go with the Fetish for those uber draining physical spells. Yes it would suck to lose the fetish, but that's why you keep "backup" spells like Stun Bolt &/or Stun Ball. Low Drain, useful against spirits, hits like a ton of bricks, & non-lethal if you don't want them to be.
The only character I cannot see buying Cyberwear is a Technomancer. Resonance is just too important (Plus, he doesn't really need it. A Techno basically has an image link in his normal eyes, so you can just overlay any benefits from Sensors and get Flare Comp from Contacts).
Mages on the other hand seem to benefit a fair bit from lots, and dont have their Drain att reduced.
Mages on the other hand seem to benefit a fair bit from lots, and dont have their Drain att reduced.
Shapeshifters/drakes. There's almost no reason for them to have it either, it only benefits their metahuman form, not their animal/dracoform. I did look at some cyber when I built my drake, but anything I wanted I wanted to have in both forms, so I had to go for an alternative (glasses, increased reflexes adept power, etc).
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 2 2009, 03:34 PM)
Shapeshifters/drakes. There's almost no reason for them to have it either, it only benefits their metahuman form, not their animal/dracoform. I did look at some cyber when I built my drake, but anything I wanted I wanted to have in both forms, so I had to go for an alternative (glasses, increased reflexes adept power, etc).
Once my cyber-mage-latent-drake will awake he'll feel really weak as a drake without his ware.
Shinobi Killfist excuse me? One of the best defenses against a Runner Incursion is to control your enviroment, and I've been around long enough to remember all of the threads bitching and whining about how powerful magic is and how Mages outclass everyone else. Well guess what, if Dumpshockers can come up with the problem then over the course of the decades since magic has returned than so has the corps and they aren't going to ask themselves whether or not it is "fair" or "being a dick" to do their best to level the playing field. All they are going to be concerned about is whether or not the measures are cost effective.
Hell's Bells, it doesn't really take that much intelligence to figure out that stacking as many vision mods as they can against everyone is a good idea.
Hell's Bells, it doesn't really take that much intelligence to figure out that stacking as many vision mods as they can against everyone is a good idea.
QUOTE (Ravor @ Aug 2 2009, 07:45 PM)
Shinobi Killfist excuse me? One of the best defenses against a Runner Incursion is to control your enviroment, and I've been around long enough to remember all of the threads bitching and whining about how powerful magic is and how Mages outclass everyone else. Well guess what, if Dumpshockers can come up with the problem then over the course of the decades since magic has returned than so has the corps and they aren't going to ask themselves whether or not it is "fair" or "being a dick" to do their best to level the playing field. All they are going to be concerned about is whether or not the measures are cost effective.
Hell's Bells, it doesn't really take that much intelligence to figure out that stacking as many vision mods as they can against everyone is a good idea.
Hell's Bells, it doesn't really take that much intelligence to figure out that stacking as many vision mods as they can against everyone is a good idea.
Well said, though I probably wouln't have singled out somebody in quite that tone, but that's me. As to your point, if I was a corp thinking Magial security, I'd have every interior hallway with automatically controlled lighting. Then if the 'runners show up, the spider drops containment doors (NO, NOT blast doors. This isn't the Death Star.) whose main purpose is to seal out ambient light, and slow up the 'runners. Then pop thermal smoke. That eliminates 100% of a mage's natural senses needed to cast... unless they pop astral. But they can't effectively target that little non-living drone, now can they? Then just have each of the response team wearing armor with integrated radar. That's negated the mage pretty effectively... until the mage casts "Clean Air" while splitting their dice pool and dropping a low level light spell into a F1 sustaining focus.
The point is that a mage has to be able to perceive the target through some inate ability not based on radar or untrasound or whatever. Now, a really ballsy mage who knows none of her teammates are in front of her thanks to the TacNet reporting to their glasses might choose to go indiscriminate with the indirect combat spells. "Hey, we blinded the mage! Get 'em!" as a little tongue of flame appears out of the darkness, and the response team captain has time to mutter "Ah, drek..." before he's all like crispy critter'd.
Of course, a mage could always maintain "Detect Enemies - Extended" in a sustaining focus. It won't tell you precisely enough for direct combat spells, but more than enough for "government work". You seriously mean your mage doesn't? How about "Spatial Sense - Extended"? Makes it a little tough to ambush the party. Wandering patrols are still a problem, but there are spells for that, too, and they're cheap on the drain if you keep the force low. Just to know where people are within 20 meters? That's pretty wiz in my book.
It's always a battle of measure and countermeasure. 'Runners learn with experience and so do corps. I know our team (full) mage can't wait to get levitate, given the number of times it would have made his job a drekload easier as an example. I'm the one with the two detects on tap, so I'm on watch. I also have the best Perception on the team, so it works out.
Live and learn... assuming you live. Good luck, and good hunting.
Aye, what can I say? I get testy when people call me a dick because I'm guilty of believing that my NPCs should be just as intelligent and canny ( or not ) as they realistically should be.Good point with bringing up the detection and indirect spells, although I still think it's just easier to get cybereyes and be done with it, even if you are slinging flamebolts.
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