Okay. So, the point of this thread is simple: come up with a relevant melee runner. What works the best/fills in a decent role within the party?

I understand the character should have a good gun skill as well (because let's face it, you can't always be up close), but the primary focus should be melee. Also, leave room/avenues for appropriate defenses.

Adept? Cyber? Bio? Killing hands or a weapon focus?

I leave this question to you all.

Here is one that I have been working on for sometime.

Ariel Juagahun "Tandang"
Ork, Male, Age-18, 6'4" @ 285 lbs (1.93 meters @ 129.27 kg)

My main characterm Kael, is an elven sam specialized in hand to hand, and he kicks plenty of ass. I don't have his full sheet in front of me, it's in his folder in the other room, but he was built with 750 Karma(and under SR4 rules which we prefer.)

But he does very well for himself-Strength 5(9), Agility 5(9), Body 4(5, +3 damage soak), good reaction and intuition for initiative. He's a cyber variant-Titanium Bone Lacing, Wired Reflexes 2(trust me, you want extra passes, the more the merrier). High Agility is more important than high Strength-his strength is high more for character than actual damage potential.

He has 4 levels of Martial Arts(Savate/Muay Thai level 2, Tae Kwan Do Lv. 1 and Escrima Lv. 1), and has both Unarmed and Blades(blades 4, unarmed 5(+2) Kick Attacks). Steel-capped boots and hardliners(extra DV in our games), +3 DV from the unarmed combat(and and extra +1 to his blades), Kick Attack, Riposte, Watchful Guard, Finishing Blow, Iajutsu, and Sweep for maneuvers. (He's got lots of other skills too, but I just wanted to break down his melee aspect.) In the end, his base hits are 5(Strength), +3(Bone Lacing), +3(Martial Arts), +1(Hardliners) for 12P damage, with a +1 reach on his kicks, and throws 16 dice(17 if he takes the reach die to his advantage) in melee encounters. He's pretty much a beast. Of course, I have sweat still in fights-his body and armor are good but he is still easily hurtable if he meets some burst-fire; making things like Gymnastics Dodge and Synthacardium very, very good to have(along with a good Reaction.) In other words, make sure your melee character has a good defensive base, as they will need it to get close. (his Running skill has come in VERY handy). He also has firearms back-up(being an armorer as well), while he's not the best shot in the world it is very nice to have something to lay down cover fire to get close.

He seems quite powerful but we usually play our games kicked up a notch from normal(not uber-powered but a little more powerful than average).

(I could rebuild him with 400 BP fairly easy-he'd end up losing Blades and a few of his other stats would likely be 1 lower with a couple other skills lowered/cut, with an extra level of muscle toner and augmentation. We don't play with Availability limits in our games at chargen in any case, just telling players what the relative power level is and we go from there.)

I myself intend to build a melee character (weapons user) and even if i have no expeirince with SR4 (or any SR) my 10 year PnP experience tells me two things are cornerstone. Armour and stealth


Armour can be built up many ways but thanks to the Arsenal book a character has now the option for 3 layers of armour: Dermal Plating/Dermal sheath+ Form-Fitting Body Armour+ any normal armour. This should give you the protection to take a few hits while your closing the range.


Stealth however is viable option, it´s free (unless you buy a Camouflage or Chameleon suit) and gives you the edge to close the distance and break a guards neck or shove a vibrosword threw his chest.


again I´m a total SR n00b so I can have totally misst something, but these are my 2 cents on how i will build my melee guy.

I prefer building characters who specialize in non-lethal combat. It just seems more professional and grants far more benefits than they deny. Afterall, once an opponent is knocked out, you can still choose to kill him and do so in a far less noisy, messy way than a shotgun blast to the face.

That said, your best option for melee is naturally an Adept. That's their core design niche for crying out loud. You can build a Street Samurai-type character who's every bit as effective, but it comes down to the old "strong to start versus stronger as they grow" argument. A Street Sam will have way more bonuses at character creation, but an Adept has no effective cap to how powerful they become. They can also infiltrate secure areas more easily (less worries about MAD scanners and the like) and have numerous unique magical abilities that a Street Sam can't duplicate (such as create blast waves with their fists or walking across snow without leaving a track). Plus there's Weapon Foci which make them a force to be reckoned with against mundane and magical opponents alike.

In the end though, it comes down to what flavor you're after. If you're designing your character based upon what his stats will look like rather than what the character will be like, you're doing it all wrong in my opinion. Optimization comes after you have the concept, not before!

Who's that reply for Dr. Funkenstein? I would agree with it all, the build I've posted is a "optimized" concept that I have had based around a martial art and culture. I can post the roll-play version which has much more fluff and broader range but less powerfull.

I'm working on a build that uses Clubs, under the assumption that no matter what happens, you can always pick up something and use it as a club. Probably an adept, and make him a Face/infiltration specialist.



Edit: Spelling

if you can't beat average troll who has average skill in bat, and said troll has a bat, then your melee character sucks.

I'd totally echo the advice on stealth.
I view melee characters as "frontliners", the guys who go in first, who scout ahead.
Stealth is absolutely vital for that role.
It's difficult to increase, though.

As far as equipment is concerned, chameleon suits and thermal dampening are practically a must.

Good ware are Enhanced Articulation and Reflex Recorder, but both are expensive.

A cheap boost are adept powers, these guys are great at sneaking around.

Another way are certain mentor spirits, which are in SR4A also officially available for adepts.
Both Cat and Rat give a bonus to Stealth tests, but their disadvantages are particularly painful for a melee character.

Then there's the Catlike and Camo Fur Qualities from Runner's Companion and the Ninjitsu martial art.
Speaking of martial arts, they're practically a must anyway.
I'd recommend the techniques Set-Up, Finishing Move and Herding.


Of course, there's other, non-ninja approaches to melee combat, too.
Basically, it's always about closing in on the opponent; in a game where firearms are abundant, but most people will not stand a chance when confronted with a dedicated melee specialist, it's all about getting to the opposition without being shot down.
Sneaking up on them is one way, another option is to just charge at them.
Trolls are great for this, as they are both tough and fast.
Anything that increases your running speed proves helpful here, such as the Celerity and Satyr Legs Qualities from Runner's Companion.
The latter is also available as a cyber equivalent (Raptor Legs) and gives a bonus to kick attacks, as well as +2 to Acrobatics, including Acrobatic dodge.
Dodging is important for this approach, anyways.
As is the ability to soak damage, but it's more important to be good at dodging, as it defends you just the same, but includes the option not to get hit in the first place.
So when you build a PC with such a direct, brutal approach to melee combat, put some points into Reaction.
The Reakt and Synch genewares from Augmentation are also worth considering, as well as the adept power Combat Sense.

An interesting take on the whole closing-up problem is to invest in Con and fast-talk until you attack your opponent by surprise.
Note that the adept Power Enthralling Performance can work with fast-talk at the GM's approval.
Another pro for adepts, as they can pump up their social dicepools with ease.

Then there's the possibility that you want to build a real tank.
Someone who beats up the sec guards so that they don't shoot the mage first.
Troll (preferrably fomori, because of Arcane Arrester) with damage-soaking 'ware, maxed-out Reaction and lots of dice for Intimidation.
Qualities such as Nasty Vibe, anything incurring Freak modifiers, a big, nasty axe with Custom Look and so on.
Probably even a ghoul as well.


As far as weapons are concerned, you should definitely invest in Unarmed Combat.
You may be disarmed, you may have to get into areas where you cannot carry a sword or axe and do not even want to risk bringing a concealed ceramic knife or monowhip, so you should be able to do some harm with your bare fists.
There's a lot of adept powers that help you deal unarmed damage, from Critical Strike (which can make your fists more deadly than any weapon) to Elemental Strike (particularly useful when you choose a rather obscure element no one packs protection against).
In fact, when you're an adept and really want to specialize in melee, you may not want to bother with an expensive Weapon Focus when you have such a wide array of powers specifically for unarmed combat to choose from.
After some initiations, you may deal more damage unarmed than with a claymore (especially if you also pack Bone Density bioware or Bone Lacing cyber).
However, all these powers eat up a lot of points, so there's viable approaches to build a swordmaster, knife adept or axe-wielding barbarian as well.

Elemental strike is quite nice as it halves your opponents armor (unless they have the appropriate protection).
Hardliner gloves work well as a weapon foci for unarmed combatants.

Riposte is a maneuver I enjoy. Coupled with counterstrike and/or other defensive benefits it is very effective, even when outnumbered.

Bone-lacing/Bone Density Augmentation (preference to the latter) are good for any character who might have to slug it out.
Even an adept for .96 points of essence (1 magic point), can get Bone Density Augment (4) at chargen for 160K (alphagrade), which gives you +4 to damage resistance, (Str/2)+3P melee damage, and makes killing hands unnecessary.

however one must respect that it is the age of guns and fireballs and so a 100% melee character is a challenge, sinking a few BP into a good pistol rating is very much helpful for those times a GM decides to put you in a situation where your enemy is yards away and not even the best use of stealth on planet earth can save you.

for weapons preferentially select a light pistol for easy conceal and manoeuvrability in tight rooms, for add ons a silencer is a must as stealth still is your best guard, a laser sight or smartgun system helps with aiming as headshots are important for upholding stealth. If using melee weapons a knife is sugested as it can be held at the same time as the gun in a backhand grip without the GM having any reasons to give you minus to hit rolls with either weapon.


Also if the GM allows it the disarm Manoeuvre from Arsenal could in theory apply to guns if you reach melee range.


again these are just my 2 cents I don´t claim I´m right or no what's best so take everything with a grain of salt

stealth and protection are very much a cornerstone, but...

whatever you decide to be your melee skill and find ways to max it:
aptitude
reflex recorders
adept ability
martial art quality from arsenal

i got a player who had to move and he was rolling 15 dice on average, 18 when you throw in parrying
we found out when he parried, and use riposte, he did better on average dice

for those wondering, no i don't have that character sheet avaible, but maybe i can ask th eplayer really really nicely, he'll send me a copy

McCummail - You say the implants make killing hands useless. I thought you needed killing hands to use the elemental attack? If you want that sound attack won't you need killing hands?

yeah, you need killing hands to develop elemental strike

I stated that it makes killing hands 'unnecessary' as opposed to 'useless'.
Elemental strike pre-req, distance strike pre-req, bypassing ItNW, and astral combat are uses that killing hands can afford you that the implants cannot, YMMV.

Level 3 Bone Density Augments give you nearly equivalent melee bonuses to killing hands and critical strike 2 combined; (Str/2)+2P Unarmed Damage. The trade off being that the implant gives you damage resistance and the powers give you the above options plus critical strike theoretically has no cap.

Ah, I see. This is true. It kind of bugs me that I need an ability I can copy with implants to get another one but hey, I guess thats a balance thing. I think my personal favorite melee character was my mystic adept. 6 magic, 4 in spells, 2 in power points. Used 1 point to up his unarmed combat and the other 2 to grab killing hands and elemental attack sound. The magic was mostly for summoning, improved reflexes, invisibility, and silence. Every once and a while I would throw a stunball out there but didn't have to do that much. The spirits were mainly for concealing or a well placed distraction followed by a sonic spartan kick. Sure the main disadvantage of the mystic adept is that he is constantly choosing between two sides but I found the mix to be pretty beneficial. My GM even approved a metamagic for giving adepts/mystic adepts astral projection though Im still on the fence about taking it.

Important concern of KH versus the various bone augmentations. You can't turn the bone density phyysical damage off. Now personally as a GM I still allow my characters to choose to do stun but i pull a few dice from their attack roll as a modifier when their trying to pull the punches.

I wager if he is dropping that carrot out there, he wants you to take it.

Some more fun antics for melee combat;
Magical pests?
Install mage-cuffs and/or mage-hood with a called shot,
one less mage to worry about, take em back when you're done.

Matrix users being a bother?
Put a plug in a hacker/rigger's datajack;
Disarm them of their commlink;
put an anti-wireless coated sack on their head,
retrieve items when finished and use the commlink for fun.

Troll too tough to drop?
Tranq patch for the win!
Even trolls go to sleep.

Too many bullets cramping your style?
Keep a ballistic shield in the van,
Run through automatic fire, because you can!
Drop your shield and disarm that firearm for some man-to-man.

Happy Hunting!

You think so? Huh, didn't think of that. Maybe he does.

Speaking of shields the Weapon master in the group with my mysad uses one. An epic moment was when he charged a prime runner with his shield who botched his roll and they both went bursting through a window. Thank god I just got levitate last session or he would have been dead. We all voted he should get extra karma for that stunt.

Your writing is so poetic. The paragraph about dropping trolls is practically a haiku, and reading the paragraph about bullets with the right cadence makes it sound like it should be rapped. Do you write like that on purpose?

Thanks.
Saying it wasn't on purpose sounds a bit immodest,
so I am going to blame it on Yeats.

don´t forget your choice of fighting style affect you too, personally Krav Maga is what I´m getting for my character, it has good benefices that's aimed to disarm and knock out gunmen (a must considering eavry punk on the street has a handgun) but others have there uses ofcourse, whats your fighting style of choice?

Honestly, the best melee build is probably two levels of Firefight and a level of Krav Maga, a shotgun specialty for the Longarms skill, and 10 steaming AA-16 rounds right in a bugger's face. I wonder what the recoil mod for "pressed up against my target's chest" is? Hell, if you wanted (and wanted to make realism your bitch), you could even silence the damn thing. And while Dodge is probably mechanically the better melee avoidance choice, no reason not to melee-harden the gun and parry using Clubs. Required strength? Zero. DV and AP? 17P and -2, with ex-ex rounds.

considering recoil pushes a gun back...none (ok maybe a small one because the gases can´t escape properly if you really press it firmly to the target)


edit: btw here is a few videos to inspire how Krav Maga can look in your rp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07jnqD8wvyE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HaY2gV5seg...feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnBa-sdNIEo...feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE-V9lkONeI...feature=channel

Arnis / Escrima is nice for the disarm and disarm benefits.
Kiai is good for shouting until your opponent falls over dead with laughter.

Unarmed combat is the costliest option, build-point wise. I have a personal preference for it, even though you wind up spending lots of points on a niche role. The advantages are that you are never disarmed, and you can get truly obscene damage codes.

You can also specialize in two-weapon combat. The martial arts maneuver gives you full defense for free, making it difficult for enemies to hit you. Combined with the adept counterstrike power, it is even more devastating. Adepts can also get some extra dice (and retain the ability to hit things like spirits) with a weapon focus. Be sure what optional rules the GM is using, though, as the SR4A dice cap rule really neuters some of these options (one of the reasons I think it is a poorly-designed rule is things like this. There is literally no point to full defense if your dice pool is already maxed out).

Finally, a monofilament whip is the cheapest way, BP-wise, to have some deadly melee capability. I often take a fingertip monofilament whip for characters with other niches (such as hackers or faces).

Generally, adepts are most optimal if they use bioware, followed by augmented characters, then "pure" adepts.

Is that really an optimal think to do, as you need the otherwise completdly useless Exotic melee weapon:whips skil for that.

I think it is a good choice because of the awesome capabilities of this weapon. If your agility is already high, one or 2 ratings in the skill are enough to be an awesome infighter (if you lose dice, let it in its case, otherwise you hack your arms off)^^

Adept w/ Attribute Boost + Nodachi

Do not forget SecureTech PPP System from Arsenal..Dermal Sheath/Orthoskin+FFBA+PPP System+ Normal armor..It all stacks..

Buying that skill at 4 costs less than buying two ranks in STR.
If you wanted to take STR as a dump stat anyway, it certainly is worth considering, especially if you're elf, human or -god forbid- a pixie, especially if you're magically active and therefore wnat to avoid blowing precious Essence on STR-increasing ware.

It's not optimal for every character, but for some builds (best example i can think of : pixie hacker adept), it works out just fine.

Any melee discussion is already rolling downhill when the pixies come in.
Regardless, If you have no edge, don't use the mono-whip.

Does anyone really dig on Distance strike?
(Aside from emulating Hadouken/Kamehameha)

Anything is rolling downhill once someone mentions pixies.
Sorry for that.



Well, it's cheaper than in previous editions, but still pricey.
But if you're an unarmed combat specialist anyway and really don't want to sink any points into pistols, it's certainly an option.
And emulating Hadouken should always be an option IMHO.

well it has a logical element of suprice as the average tom, dick and harry don´t know your a adept unless you show it

Is it cheaper?
I think it still costs 2pp.
I would prefer to have the old Silent version of Delay Damage for that many points.
The fact that distance strike cannot be combined with Elemental Strike for the Red Hadouken is disappointing...

Yes, but at least it doesn't double the cost for Killing Hands anymore as it did back in SR2.
When Distance Strike first came out in Awakenings, it was prohibitively expensive to deal noteworthy amounts of physical damage with it.

Troll + Muscle Aug + PoleArms + Yield Sign/Street Light Pole has aways been one of my favorites. He onced picked up a Riot shield... and procedded to beat someone over the head with it.. untill some told him how to wear then he had alot of fun smashing people agianst the wall with it.

Ahh Ok. I only had a well-worn core book for SR2 that was shared amongst the entire group as we were all destitute. Now I can afford to buy books (and the matrix datastores contain the ones out of print).
Distance Strike always struck me as one of those cool powers that wasn't necessarily effective. If they removed the elemental strike restrictions I would be all over it. Can you say laser beams?

LynGrey,
A troll with a polearm slides into the realm of excessive reach.
Reach out and touch someone?

Does reach 3 literally translate into a 3 meter reach?

Yeah, that would be a good fix for it IMHO.



An interesting question, not only for coming up with a Dhalsim Arms SURGE Quality, but also for those who want to utilize floorplans in combat.
I consider Range not to boil down exactly to reach, but in my game, it represents the area a character can effectively threaten without moving too much from the spot.
A Reach2 monowhip is said to have a two metre cord, though.
But then, claymores or nodachi don't have blades that long, even if they both have Reach 2 as well.
I view it as an approximation, not an exact measure.

Looking at the weapons,
it seems there is a rough pattern.

A normal person with a dagger has ~2 meters of reach.
~65 cm (average male reach) + ~30 cm (dagger blade length) = ~0.95m reach
A normal person with a broadsword has ~2.5 meters of reach.
~65 cm (average male reach) + ~80 cm (broadsword blade length) = ~1.45m reach
A normal person with a claymore has over 3 meters of reach.
~65 cm (average male reach) + ~110 cm (claymore blade length) = ~1.75m reach

Short of a pike or a long spear, (over 2 meters long)
I don't think you will get more than ~2 - 2.5 meters of net reach normally.

Short = [0-50]cm extension = 0 reach
Medium = [51-100]cm extension = 1 reach
Long = [101+]cm extension = 2 reach

For sake of comparison, trolls have ~30cm reach advantage over humans = 1 reach?

EDIT: numbers were badly wrong... fixed

I really dislike distance strike, because it is far too effective - essentially, it makes all of your training in melee useless, because you can't block it, only dodge it, even at point-blank range. Why would any dedicated unarmed specialist not pick it up eventually? It's like a "remove over half of your opponent's dice pool" power.

It's like empathy software. It's way better than it should be. I hate these kind of cheesy things. If I get them, it's less "Yay, I got something powerful and effective!" and more like "Damnit, I gotta get this crap or I'm dog meat against anyone else who has it." It does one thing, though - it sure takes care of the problem of dealing with someone with two-weapon style.

At present, with free race karmagen, Pixie is a good character race.

If you have low Edge, make sure you at least have a spirit with Guard. Even if you have high Edge, get the spirit with Guard anyway.

Does distance strike work that way in CQC?
I know Ryu eats an elemental strike uppercut when he tries such antics.

I'll leave pixies and the karmagen that props them up for another topic.
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So, from all of these, I'm feeling that a bio-adept is the best base build.

Now for weapons.. I know that using the attached weapon (not the right name of it, but you get the gist) mod out of arsenal, one could create an SMG/knife as the off-hand weapon for use in two weapon fighting, then use a katana or vibro-sword weapon focus in the other hand.

Or... go with some form of longarm and use the same mod to mount it on a nodachi. Most likely not possible, but a fun thought.

OR!

Go with killing hands + bone density + elemental strike + hardliner gloves for a weapon focus.

Be sure to throw in some cyberware for good measure.
It's cheap, efficient and the high Essence cost is vastly reduced if you have more bioware than cyber.
If you have 0.7 points of bioware, that's another 0.6 points of cyber you can cram into that one point of Essence you sacrifice.



Gun blade!
Yay!
Seriously, by RAW it's possible, but it's up to the individual GM to allow it and i wouldn't mind if my GM said that it just doesn't feel right to him.



In the long run, this will most likely be the most efficient combination possible.
But it's really, really costly, you have to specialize a lot for that kind of build.

Just this week, my players got into a situation where they were ambushed on the open road. There were 8 rebels with AK-97s around the car and the players had no weapons (but due to the campaign, 3 of the 4 had unarmed or melee skills). One of them charged a group of three, with nothing but a tire iron, and while he got hit a couple times, he was only down -1 for wounds by the time he got to attack.

Now, the players had one extra IP than the opposition, but with only an armor vest and skills from the core book, they handled themselves quite well. The mooks had a die pool of 10 (which was low, but realistic) and were shooting bursts...

I guess my point is, melee is quite viable without having to dig into a ton of martial arts. Just having the basic skill and a good dice pool, with a good reaction, and a running charge, seems to be pretty sufficient.

guess so, but it´s not like you can chug down a red healing potion afterwards, in the long run for the welfare of any Shadowrunner a bit of martial arts and some power or wares goes a long way.


btw Runners without weapons? thought the laws of nature made such a thing impossible

I thought red potions had disappeared
because medkits w/machine sprites
made them obsolete.

I think any runner without at least 'basic self-defense'
is just asking for a troll knuckle sandwich.

If you make a bioadepts with bone density augments,
it may be worth it to skip KillHands+ElemStrike (1pp)
in favor of Critical Strike 4 (1pp) which is +4DV

Go read up on the Mystical Healing section in Augmentation.
Red potions aren't obsolete, they are quite worthwile as an addition to usual medtech (although they're optional, though)



The thing with Critical Strike is that, like every adept power, it is capped at the level of the Magic attribute, which puts at least a little break on unarmed damage escalation.
But yes, it is practically a must, wether you combine it with Killing Hands and Elemental Strike or with Bone Density Augmentation.

Yeah, it is as if someone would spend two power points to use ranged weapons with his Unarmed Combat skill.

Seriously, even though power points aren't that expensive, they're a very limited resource at the start of the game and have exponentially increasing costs later.
Losing two of them is a significant diminishing of this resource.
Depending on what else you want to do with your melee adept, this may be hurtful.

For a true, dedicated melee hyperspecialist, i can see the use of picking this up instead of learning a ranged combat skill for roughly the same amount or less karma.
Given how high you can push unarmed damage, this can be quite deadly (even though the range is still pathetic compared to firearms- no anti-aircraft-hadouken! for you), even though maxing your damage potential in unarmed combat means even more specialization.
So it's a very viable option if you really want to specialize, it's deadly, silent, perfectly concealed until you use it, yeah, actually it rocks pretty much.
But, as with all specialization, this means you'll be lacking in other areas of expertise.
If all you want to do is punch people to death at very short ranges, you're fine with one or two points of 'ware, Distance Strike, Critical Strike4, Killing Hands and Improved Aptitude (Unarmed).

If you want to do other things as well, be good at avoiding and soaking damage, have high dicepools in areas outside of combat, not be confined to a very specific tactical role, whatever, save the 2pp and get yourself a pistol or some shuriken or whatever.

It's a good choice, but not a no-brainer.
There's reason enough to assume that there will be a lot of melee adepts around who don't go for that option.