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Mäx
QUOTE (McCummhail @ Aug 19 2009, 04:14 PM) *
If you make a bioadepts with bone density augments,
it may be worth it to skip KillHands+ElemStrike (1pp)
in favor of Critical Strike 4 (1pp) which is +4DV

You should get those both.
But yes the +4DV is better most of the time, but in some situations there's nothing better then the AP-infinite of elemtalstrike(sound)
McCummhail
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 19 2009, 10:29 AM) *
You should get those both.
But yes the +4DV is better most of the time, but in some situations there's nothing better then the AP-infinite of elemtalstrike(sound)
This brings up an interesting dilemma,

Street Magic p.165
"Sound damage is treated as Stun damage.
Armor has no effect, but sound dampers
and spells like Silence and Hush add their rating/
hits to the defender’s dice pool (effectively
acting like sound armor)"

Does elemental strike (sound) do solely stun damage?
Do you see the killing hands power counteracting this?
jerusalem7227
this is actually a timely topic for me. I was thinking yesterday about putting a weapon in a cyberlimb (arm was what i was thinking) and then rig it to trigger on the impact of a palm strike. My personal idea was to have a shotgun in the cyberlimb and thus the target takes melee and firearm dmg.

So, does it make sense? Can it work? Would you allow it in your game?
deek
QUOTE (jerusalem7227 @ Aug 19 2009, 12:30 PM) *
this is actually a timely topic for me. I was thinking yesterday about putting a weapon in a cyberlimb (arm was what i was thinking) and then rig it to trigger on the impact of a palm strike. My personal idea was to have a shotgun in the cyberlimb and thus the target takes melee and firearm dmg.

So, does it make sense? Can it work? Would you allow it in your game?

I wouldn't allow that in my game. Now, if the player did his research and pointed out all the little loopholes s/he used to get basically doubling all his actions in an IP, then I'd think about it...but my first thought is no.
remmus
QUOTE (jerusalem7227 @ Aug 19 2009, 06:30 PM) *
this is actually a timely topic for me. I was thinking yesterday about putting a weapon in a cyberlimb (arm was what i was thinking) and then rig it to trigger on the impact of a palm strike. My personal idea was to have a shotgun in the cyberlimb and thus the target takes melee and firearm dmg.

So, does it make sense? Can it work? Would you allow it in your game?


sounds okey, but logicly the gun would have to fold out from the arm and rest along the lower arm, for smaller weapons I could aloud a one shoot from between the fingers, but a shotgun has to wide of a barrel to work inside a clenched hand.

Plus I would still require a seperate Longarms and Hand to Hand skill role, for balance sake.
deek
QUOTE (remmus @ Aug 19 2009, 12:44 PM) *
sounds okey, but logicly the gun would have to fold out from the arm and rest along the lower arm, for smaller weapons I could aloud a one shoot from between the fingers, but a shotgun has to wide of a barrel to work inside a clenched hand.

Plus I would still require a seperate Longarms and Hand to Hand skill role, for balance sake.

Thinking more about it, I'd likely want dice pools split, due to multiple attacks using the same action. And with melee being Complex and shooting a Simple (or Free, if rigged, I suppose), I'd also limit shooting to once per pass, basically making the maneuver a Complex action. I would agree with Longarms if you are shooting non-rigged. But if rigged, then you may not need the skill...or maybe an Exotic Weapon skill...not sure?

But you would certainly require separate rolls, not just for balance sake, but because they are two separate actions and that is required.

Lots of little things could be added to balance that out...
Kronk2
QUOTE (Stingray @ Aug 18 2009, 06:16 AM) *
Do not forget SecureTech PPP System from Arsenal..Dermal Sheath/Orthoskin+FFBA+PPP System+ Normal armor..It all stacks.. biggrin.gif


if you wanted to go this way you could also add Mystic armor to the mix.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (remmus @ Aug 19 2009, 12:44 PM) *
sounds okey, but logicly the gun would have to fold out from the arm and rest along the lower arm, for smaller weapons I could aloud a one shoot from between the fingers, but a shotgun has to wide of a barrel to work inside a clenched hand.

Plus I would still require a seperate Longarms and Hand to Hand skill role, for balance sake.


Maybe it's just me, but I always assumed that, given the size of the weapons you can have installed in the arm, that larger calibers fired out the palm (especially given the capacity). Maybe I just always assumed the gun was literally built into the hand, not that it was on a system that allowed it to come free. (hence why he wanted to do a palm strike, not a punch) I still like the seperate rolls though.
LynGrey
QUOTE (McCummhail @ Aug 18 2009, 10:29 AM) *
LynGrey,
A troll with a polearm slides into the realm of excessive reach.
Reach out and touch someone?

Does reach 3 literally translate into a 3 meter reach?


"I ain't touchin nothin.. i'm hittin them"

I wouldn't say it translates to 3 meter reach.. nothing in SR says Reach=meters, i think its just a relative comparison really. A club is roughly the same length than a Katana you know yadda.

Talking about excessive, how about you go back to the days of.. *cringe* ....Dikote...... (i'm soooo going to get sooo flamed now)
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (LynGrey @ Aug 19 2009, 08:19 PM) *
Talking about excessive, how about you go back to the days of.. *cringe* ....Dikote...... (i'm soooo going to get sooo flamed now)


"Can I dikote my free spirit and sleep with it?" "Can I dikote my flechette ammo and have it rip apart APCs?" "Can I dikote my troll bow arrows and have them rip thru MBTs (main battle tanks)?"

Ahh yes, Dikote.
McCummhail
QUOTE (LynGrey @ Aug 19 2009, 08:19 PM) *
"I ain't touchin nothin.. i'm hittin them"

I wouldn't say it translates to 3 meter reach.. nothing in SR says Reach=meters, i think its just a relative comparison really. A club is roughly the same length than a Katana you know yadda.

Talking about excessive, how about you go back to the days of.. *cringe* ....Dikote...... (i'm soooo going to get sooo flamed now)

Yeah, I crunched some numbers and I have a vague gauge of range, but a nice easy number for melee range would be nice.
(A lot of my players came from DnD and have grid squares and reach hard-coded in their brains)

A troll has ~1m reach and reach 2 weapons are at least 1m.
It might translate to 3 meters reach with a looong weapon though.

Dikote is made from rare unobtainium and so is harder to find these days.
SuperCracker
This has been a great thread for ideas.

My main concern with melee specialists in SR4 is that guns are way powerful (as they should be). Now, I can easily make a melee character who can rock out against other melee characters (counter-strike adept power + two weapon fighting, etc.), but I'm concerned about being able to rock out on gunners as well.

With that in mind, I almost feel like some combat sense is appropriate. I also should list out some of the pertinent house rules in our game.

Alright. There's no PPP armor in our game. The GM has taken out all forms of IP adding powers/ware.

This frees up lots of essence/powerpoints to play with without having to worry about IPs.

Also, in his campaign, bioware has just come out, so I'm not certain how available it is to us just yet.

So given those.. what is the path I should take?
X-Kalibur
I love the idea of a melee centric character as much as the next guy, but it's just not practical. Much as I believe a sidearm is for getting to your longarm, I believe CQC should be used when there is no better alternative. No silencer on your gun? Yeah, use whatever silent means you have to dispatch someone, likely a good clubbing or stabbing (or taser... but who honestly uses those wink.gif ) Now, don't get me wrong, I think everyone should have at least 1 CQC skill, be it unarmed, blades, clubs, improvised weapons, monowhips, *ahem* whatever catches your fancy. But don't rely on it as your primary means of offense or defense, you'll be sadly disappointed.
Glyph
QUOTE (McCummhail @ Aug 19 2009, 07:55 AM) *
This brings up an interesting dilemma,

Street Magic p.165
"Sound damage is treated as Stun damage.
Armor has no effect, but sound dampers
and spells like Silence and Hush add their rating/
hits to the defender’s dice pool (effectively
acting like sound armor)"

Does elemental strike (sound) do solely stun damage?
Do you see the killing hands power counteracting this?

Elemental strike seems to be one of the most misunderstood adept powers in the game. It adds an elemental effect (glare, setting something on fire, better chance of knockdown, etc.) to the killing hands. It does not halve armor, or otherwise convert the normal punching damage into elemental damage.
remmus
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Aug 19 2009, 11:47 PM) *
Maybe it's just me, but I always assumed that, given the size of the weapons you can have installed in the arm, that larger calibers fired out the palm (especially given the capacity). Maybe I just always assumed the gun was literally built into the hand, not that it was on a system that allowed it to come free. (hence why he wanted to do a palm strike, not a punch) I still like the seperate rolls though.


well that's how I see it to, but for the sake of the punch gun concept as a GM I would demand a "pop up" design that way balance out the power of it by sacrificing concealing
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Glyph @ Aug 20 2009, 08:42 AM) *
Elemental strike seems to be one of the most misunderstood adept powers in the game. It adds an elemental effect (glare, setting something on fire, better chance of knockdown, etc.) to the killing hands. It does not halve armor, or otherwise convert the normal punching damage into elemental damage.

Please explain to me in simple terms what would happen, if an adept took blast as elemental strike, if we go with the wording from street magic.
QUOTE
Elemental Effects
Blast
The blast elemental effect is like a hurricane
wind or the shockwave of an explosion. Blast
damage is treated as Physical damage and is
resisted with half Impact armor (rounded up).

Characters struck with a Blast damage attack
are more likely to be knocked down—add the
Force to the damage inflicted when comparing
to the defender’s Body (see Knockdown, p.
151, SR4). Blast damage can also break glass
and knock over trees and other objects. At
the gamemaster’s discretion, objects with a
Structure rating less than the Force may be
knocked over, shattered, shredded, or otherwise
swept away.

Bolding by me. Also, why the hell is that one Physical while Sound is Stun?
McCummhail
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 20 2009, 05:31 AM) *
Bolding by me. Also, why the hell is that one Physical while Sound is Stun?

Sound ignores armor so they wanted to balance it?
If sound does physical it seems like a win button.

Maybe Reverb attacks have less initial impact?
Stahlseele
Ah, yeah, balancing . .
McCummhail
QUOTE (Street magic, p.176)
Elemental Strike enhances the effects of Killing Hands with an
elemental effect (see pp. 164–165 of this book and pp. 154–155, SR4).
I can see how this might be ambiguous.
However, looking at the actual elemental effects
I see nothing that suggests you wouldn't
halve Armor as most powers suggest.
Is there a reason not to accept the elemental effects,
completely as written?
deek
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Aug 20 2009, 02:28 AM) *
I love the idea of a melee centric character as much as the next guy, but it's just not practical. Much as I believe a sidearm is for getting to your longarm, I believe CQC should be used when there is no better alternative. No silencer on your gun? Yeah, use whatever silent means you have to dispatch someone, likely a good clubbing or stabbing (or taser... but who honestly uses those wink.gif ) Now, don't get me wrong, I think everyone should have at least 1 CQC skill, be it unarmed, blades, clubs, improvised weapons, monowhips, *ahem* whatever catches your fancy. But don't rely on it as your primary means of offense or defense, you'll be sadly disappointed.

I don't know how much I agree with this, just based on playing experience. I'm just thinking back to the last few sessions, where melee combat has been done against firearms. Running at someone, with no cover, gives a player about the same chances to avoid bullets as ducking behind partial cover. Armor is armor, whether you have a gun or not...so, if you get hit while running at someone or while ducking behind cover, its the same difference.

From what I have seen, that first hit from a melee weapon, does a huge amount of damage and more than likely drops the target to the ground with that one hit. Now, if all your mooks fight to the death (which is a pet peeve of mine), well, you've got an injured shooter on his back, shooting at the melee player at point-blank range. Not the best situation, but I'd wager the melee player is going to win out in this matchup 9 out of 10 times.

Maybe I am doing something wrong in my games (wouldn't be the first time), but my players have been fired at by multiple opponents on several occasions and have lived through it with little physical damage resulting from the attack. Based on some of the comments I'm reading, the standard dumpshock player standing in an open field being fired at by three mooks with AK-97s turn into swiss cheese. From my experience, that just doesn't happen.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Glyph @ Aug 20 2009, 12:42 AM) *
Elemental strike seems to be one of the most misunderstood adept powers in the game. It adds an elemental effect (glare, setting something on fire, better chance of knockdown, etc.) to the killing hands. It does not halve armor, or otherwise convert the normal punching damage into elemental damage.

Have something to back that up? Your use of personal interpretations and house rules doesn't mean everyone else is "misunderstanding" the powers.

As written, you get the full elemental effect -- not a partial elemental effect. The power even sends you directly to those rules, and they're rules written in the same book so it's not some random oversight or anything. The halving of armor that some provide is part of the elemental effect. You don't get to pick and choose which effects you get with each one without house ruling it. It's all or nothing.
Mäx
QUOTE (Glyph @ Aug 20 2009, 09:42 AM) *
Elemental strike seems to be one of the most misunderstood adept powers in the game. It adds an elemental effect (glare, setting something on fire, better chance of knockdown, etc.) to the killing hands. It does not halve armor, or otherwise convert the normal punching damage into elemental damage.

I call bullshit on that.
There's really no such think as elemental damage, only elemental effects.
remmus
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Aug 20 2009, 08:28 AM) *
I love the idea of a melee centric character as much as the next guy, but it's just not practical. Much as I believe a sidearm is for getting to your longarm, I believe CQC should be used when there is no better alternative. No silencer on your gun? Yeah, use whatever silent means you have to dispatch someone, likely a good clubbing or stabbing (or taser... but who honestly uses those wink.gif ) Now, don't get me wrong, I think everyone should have at least 1 CQC skill, be it unarmed, blades, clubs, improvised weapons, monowhips, *ahem* whatever catches your fancy. But don't rely on it as your primary means of offense or defense, you'll be sadly disappointed.


consider the advancement in ways to counter gun users, both in the form of stopping a bullet from hitting your body as well as avoiding being seen to begin with pure melee characters are far from useless, sure I still advice getting a martial arts like Krav Maga or other disarm/throw centric styles to aid you but a good vibrosword, good armour and a good rating in stealth works as well as any ak98 but without the ammo cost and noise.
McCummhail
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Aug 20 2009, 08:28 AM)
I love the idea of a melee centric character as much as the next guy, but it's just not practical.
It takes a high caliber weapon or explosive to match
the trauma caused by flail or battle axe.

Guns are a relatively inefficient way of delivering trauma,
so it makes sense that melee is more potent and damaging.

Guns have the benefit of being able to do this at range.

Don't rule out the melee madness!

QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 20 2009, 08:14 AM) *
I call bullshit on that.
There is no need to be rude when disagreeing.
Angelone
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 20 2009, 08:14 AM) *
I call bullshit on that.
There's really no such think as elemental damage, only elemental effects.

Unless I can't read at all you two are saying the same thing.

Don't have my books infront of my but wouldn't the effects of sound and maybe blast be noisy? More so than shooting the poor fool? Think it would be funny though, especially if it was like the comic sound effects . Bam, Pow, Kurthunk.

For style I'd use light. It would be cool as hell to hit someone and a blast of light bursts off of your hands.

Now to make an adept named Bruce Leeroy. 100 points to anyone who gets that reference.
McCummhail
QUOTE (Angelone @ Aug 20 2009, 09:26 AM) *
Don't have my books infront of my but wouldn't the effects of sound and maybe blast be noisy? More so than shooting the poor fool? Think it would be funny though, especially if it was like the comic sound effects . Bam, Pow, Kurthunk.
For style I'd use light. It would be cool as hell to hit someone and a blast of light bursts off of your hands.
Now to make an adept named Bruce Leeroy. 100 points to anyone who gets that reference.
Are you referring to this golden piece of cinema?
I imagine sound element strikes would be 'hella loud'.
Angelone
That was it. Surprisingly fast too. That's how I imagine elemental strike light and killing hands.

Yeah, I think the sound would be more like sonic booms than anything cool.
Stahlseele
No, Blast is quiet . . As it is, basically, just the WIND Element.
You are mixing this up with the SOND Elemental effect, which really does make more noise.
For Blast i would give a whoosh or something, but not more.
McCummhail
Does Elemental strike and a Martial arts style
put you on track for the distinctive style flaw?

Honestly,
how many people punch you with a sonic boom
or with flashy light effects?
Stahlseele
Most people who do any punching and watch Tri-D i'd wager . .
Angelone
I was doubtful about blast, but yeah I imagine sound would be quite loud.

I'm a firm believer in the fingertip compartment and monowhip school of unarmed combat as well. I don't have the knowledge of 4th as the other editions so I could be overestimating it's usefullness. If anything you could also get a normal whip and moonlight as a dominatrix. Hell you could use that as a cover sometimes.
Stahlseele
Quick question: HOW the heck is an implanted Monowhip unarmed combat to you?
Only way i can see that being unarmed combat is on a critical glitch losing an arm
X-Kalibur
Guy charging you? Suppressive fire. Long Burst. (You know, this wouldn't be so bad if we had some GRENADES!)
remmus
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Aug 20 2009, 05:29 PM) *
Guy charging you? Suppressive fire. Long Burst. (You know, this wouldn't be so bad if we had some GRENADES!)


well consider you can armor yourself quite good I don´t see suppressive fire working much, especially if the melee character has dom brains and back stab you rather then running full blazing.
McCummhail
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 20 2009, 10:20 AM) *
Quick question: HOW the heck is an implanted Monowhip unarmed combat to you?
Only way i can see that being unarmed combat is on a critical glitch losing an arm
rotfl.gif
So I guess finger flails don't count as unarmed.

A troll using dead ganger arm clubs, is that unarmed combat?
X-Kalibur
That same armor is also protecting you against his club/knife/axe/etc, you also get to roll more dice for defense against a melee character. I watched my friend make a troll boxer who got destroyed in combat. Oh sure, he didn't take much damage, but it adds up quickly, and for whatever reason, he couldn't connect in melee to save his life. This may have simply been an omen however, as he rarely rolled many net hits, if any (Maybe the GM was hot that day)
remmus
QUOTE (McCummhail @ Aug 20 2009, 05:51 PM) *
A troll using dead ganger arm clubs, is that unarmed combat?


wouldn´t that class as onearmed combat?
Mäx
QUOTE (Angelone @ Aug 20 2009, 05:26 PM) *
Unless I can't read at all you two are saying the same thing.

Nope, he's saying that elemental strike only gives your strike a special effects (like setting thinks on fire or electric shock).
I was pointing out that there's no such think as an elemtal damage in the system, damage and armor piercing are a part of the elemental effects.
Stahlseele
Actually, 3-Armed combat. Troll has two and is swinging the third ^^
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 20 2009, 10:58 AM) *
Actually, 3-Armed combat. Troll has two and is swinging the third ^^


Double plus good
Angelone
It's unarmed combat the same way spurs are. It's attached to you, you aren't holding it and thus can't get disarmed. Unless you glitch of course. Might just be argueing semantics though.
Stahlseele
Spurs ain't unarmed combat neither . .
remmus
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 20 2009, 06:14 PM) *
Spurs ain't unarmed combat neither . .


agreed, the right tgerm is hand to hand combat, unarmed is just your plain old body
X-Kalibur
methinks they are mixing unarmed and melee combat together, which, if you with to lump them, is CQC. Spurs are considered melee combat, hence why the specialization for them is not covered under unarmed (or, without a weapon... *cough*)

/edit - Hand to Hand implies unarmed as well, hence being named hand to hand
Angelone
Ok should have used the term melee combat. I'll keep that in mind.

Still like the monowhip/fingertip compartment combo.

Still gonna make Bruce Leeroy.

Still think elemental effect sound is kinda silly and loud.

deek
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Aug 20 2009, 11:52 AM) *
That same armor is also protecting you against his club/knife/axe/etc, you also get to roll more dice for defense against a melee character. I watched my friend make a troll boxer who got destroyed in combat. Oh sure, he didn't take much damage, but it adds up quickly, and for whatever reason, he couldn't connect in melee to save his life. This may have simply been an omen however, as he rarely rolled many net hits, if any (Maybe the GM was hot that day)

That same armor also has Impact lower than Ballistic, generally speaking, so you have less soak dice. And you are making an assumption that the defender in question has Dodge, Unarmed or a Weapon skill...in my experience, that's not a given.

I'm not going to say that the melee guy, charging the gun bunny has better odds, as its fairly normal to get a couple more dice with your firearms than a melee dice pool, plus the gun bunny is pinching off a couple shots or bursts (which may actually level the playing field). But that first attack by the melee guy is likely going to knock the gun bunny down, and if that's the case, the defender loses a couple dice for being prone, 1 or 2 for the wound (most likely) and now the melee guy has superior position and attacking a prone opponent (5 extra dice)...

And this is all without extra dice or maneuvers from martial arts...just basic melee combat.

Stahlseele
QUOTE
Still think elemental effect sound is kinda silly and loud.

DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH!
*takes a deep breath*
DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH!
QUOTE
And this is all without extra dice or maneuvers from martial arts...just basic melee combat.

Then factor in Reach if you're a Troll or something and you are set to deliver a seriou asswhooping.

It has to be this way, else nobody would bother and everybody would just shoot their guns into faces for money.
X-Kalibur
Wait, you mean I can't just stick my gun into someone's face for money? Way to shatter my hopes and dreams... jerk.

@Deek - I understand where you're coming from, and I don't want it to sound like unarmed/melee isn't important. Quite the opposite, like many skills it has it's place. You can't use guns for everything, but by the same token, you can't use punching for everything, or magic for everything, or drones for everything, etc, ad nauseum. Also, I don't think it's unfair to assume a gunbunny has dodge. I'd be more surprised by one that didn't have any.
remmus
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Aug 20 2009, 06:52 PM) *
Wait, you mean I can't just stick my gun into someone's face for money? Way to shatter my hopes and dreams... jerk.

@Deek - I understand where you're coming from, and I don't want it to sound like unarmed/melee isn't important. Quite the opposite, like many skills it has it's place. You can't use guns for everything, but by the same token, you can't use punching for everything, or magic for everything, or drones for everything, etc, ad nauseum. Also, I don't think it's unfair to assume a gunbunny has dodge. I'd be more surprised by one that didn't have any.


mayby not to 100%...but to 99% you could
McCummhail
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Aug 20 2009, 11:52 AM) *
Also, I don't think it's unfair to assume a gunbunny has dodge. I'd be more surprised by one that didn't have any.

I thought gunbunnies all had gymnastics. Or is that just munchkin gunbunnies?
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