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harlokin
We've just started playing SR4, and the growing consensus in the group appears to be that Strength is a marginal attribute at best in combat.

Agility is used for both ranged and melee attacks, while Strength only helps determine damage done in melee, and has a very minor effect on recoil for ranged.

For the melee weapons I've seen, you only get half Strength plus the weapon damage, while if you use a Monofilament whip, you can completely ignore your Strength and still do the same melee damage as someone with a Strength of 8 and a Combat Axe.

Is Strength underpowered, is the Monofilament whip overpowered, or have we got it all wrong?
Bull
The monowhip is overpowered. But remember, if you glitch, you hit yourself with it. THat's not really a danger with other melee weapons.

Strength also factors into a few skills, and most importantly, it factors into what armor you can wear. You can only wear armor up to double your strength before you start taking dice pool penalties. So a mage with a body of 2, for example, can't even wear a lined coat withouut eating a couple dice penalties. You need a 4 to wear an armored jacket.
Dakka Dakka
Bull, it's 2xBOD. Strength has nothing to do with armor and encumbrance.

Strength is only used for a couple of skills.

Personally I like that strength does not factor in as much into melee damage as in other games. With the right weapons you don't need to be a world class weightlifter to cause grievous wounds, and being stronger still has an effect.

Strength also factors in the throwing distances, the maximum pull of a bow a character can effectively use and the weight he can carry.
Traul
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 1 2009, 11:39 AM) *
and the weight he can carry.

Most important. Nobody cares about that until someone gets shot and has to be carried back home.
Stahlseele
in SR4, there are no weights anymore.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 1 2009, 03:13 PM) *
in SR4, there are no weights anymore.
There are no more weights listed for the equipment, but stuff still has weight and characters have a maximum carrying capacity and lifting capability.
Saint Sithney
Strength isn't even as important as Body for running. Hell, 5k worth of cheap little Oxyrush nanos will serve you better than 5 strength and 5 running, unless you're talking about top speed (which is only marginally aided anyway.)
Ravor
However, it isn't really a problem as long as you play your characters as real people and not mere collections of numbers stratched into a piece of paper.
Dakka Dakka
Body improves the time you can spend running, but Strength determines how far you can go during this time.
Stahlseele
Only thing Strength is really usefull for is climbing.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 1 2009, 11:14 AM) *
Body improves the time you can spend running, but Strength determines how far you can go during this time.


Unless you take Celerity as a SURGE power... 1.5 time normal running speeds has humans running as fast as trolls... with out any cyberware.
Zen Shooter01
Shadowrun is a post modern setting. No, STR isn't that important. Strength isn't that important in real life for most people living in the First World.

STR is vital in SR for melee combat, and it bears repeating that sometimes Shadowrunners have to carry willing, unwilling, and/or incapacitated metahumans around.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 1 2009, 08:14 AM) *
Body improves the time you can spend running, but Strength determines how far you can go during this time.


Man, if I'm ever in a situation where the 3 extra meters per turn from a good, solid sprint test really matters, then I've got way more going wrong in my world than I care to think on.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Nov 1 2009, 11:26 AM) *
Man, if I'm ever in a situation where the 3 extra meters per turn from a good, solid sprint test really matters, then I've got way more going wrong in my world than I care to think on.


This is more true than many would like to admit...

But it is useful for carrying loads, as well as for some skills... primarliy three of the four Athletics skills...

Keep the Faith
MikeKozar
...grenade tossing range is a function of Strength as well, right?
Traul
In SR3, higher Strength used to give a bonus to Intimidation rolls. Now this has been fudged into the "physically imposing" modifier, but the GM is free to take Strength into account for that.
Cheshyr
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Nov 1 2009, 01:26 PM) *
Man, if I'm ever in a situation where the 3 extra meters per turn from a good, solid sprint test really matters, then I've got way more going wrong in my world than I care to think on.


There was a situation where I wish I'd had those 3 extra meters. However, it was a rather extreme situation. I'm fairly certain the GM is going to use it again someday.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Nov 1 2009, 12:49 PM) *
...grenade tossing range is a function of Strength as well, right?


Yeah, but you'll still never be able to put 'em down range like a launcher can.
MikeKozar
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Nov 1 2009, 02:07 PM) *
Yeah, but you'll still never be able to put 'em down range like a launcher can.


Just saying, if Strength is your dump stat you might think twice when the Arms Dealer offers to cut you a deal on some pineapples.
Dakka Dakka
A good strength score is also beneficial for knife throwing.

I just found out that there can only be short foot chases. Unless you go all out humans, elves and orks jog at the same speed, whether they are fit or not. Only trolls and dwarves jog at different speeds. Isn't that weird?
Chrysalis
The only things I can think where I need an extra three meters per turn is when my characters try to escape my GM's hentai tentacle monsters.

More seriously, what about avoiding the blast radius of grenades?
Bull
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 1 2009, 05:39 AM) *
Bull, it's 2xBOD. Strength has nothing to do with armor and encumbrance.

Strength is only used for a couple of skills.

Personally I like that strength does not factor in as much into melee damage as in other games. With the right weapons you don't need to be a world class weightlifter to cause grievous wounds, and being stronger still has an effect.

Strength also factors in the throwing distances, the maximum pull of a bow a character can effectively use and the weight he can carry.


This is what I get for posting at 4 AM when I'm dead tired but hopped up on sugar smile.gif I knew it's BOdy, I just flipped them in my mind for some reason.

ANyways, what it comes down to, Shadowruns a game of skill and guns, not brute strength. As has been pointed out, STrength doesn't really effect a lot of things in your day to day lives.

That said, as a GM, it's your job to challenge the players and the characters. If you find your group (or even just certain characters) are abusing certain stats, dumping things that they logically should ahve at least at a moderate level, then put in challenges that require that skill. ANy kind of "muscle" or "tough guy" character should have at least a decent strength, minium 3 or 4. If your Sammies and combat monsters are all dumping it to the minimum in favor of boosting agility and reaction as high as possible, well, they're tweaking the rules in their favor. Feel free to tip the balance back. Hackers, Mages, even Riggers aren't necessarily going to be real strong, nor do they need to be. But combat oriented characters, I don;t care how badass you are, if you have a 1 strength, I'm laughing at your little stick arms.

<shrug>

Look at encumberance. Sure, there's no weight on gear in the game, but there's still a bit of logic to be had.

Maybe they need to lift or pull something. Maybe they need to physically bust open a door. Maybe an ork in the bar challenges the runners to an arm wrestling match, and refusal means they're starting a bar brawl that can result in the players getting arrested.

Every stat, every skill, everything has a purpose in the game, even if it doesn't come up all that often. And if the players are all ignoring one facet of the game, especially for metagame reasons like (It's not that important and I want to twink X out instead), then as a GM, it's your right, your priviledge, and IMO, your duty to call them on their bullshit one in a while. I wouldn't do it every game, and certainly not multiple times per game, but toss it out there once every 2-3 game sessions at different players, and after a couple failures with consequences, I'm sure they'll change their tune.

Bull


Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Nov 1 2009, 10:57 PM) *
The only things I can think where I need an extra three meters per turn is when my characters try to escape my GM's hentai tentacle monsters.
I don't know where you get the three meters. It's 2m per hit and you can make 2 tests per IP. With four IPs you can run pretty far in one round with no added fatigue cost.

QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Nov 1 2009, 10:57 PM) *
More seriously, what about avoiding the blast radius of grenades?
For everything but a frag grenade you can just walk away, if you still have an IP. silly.gif With a frag you have to run (sprinting is unnecessary), or be a troll, then you can walk. There is no running away from airburst grenades.
Saint Sithney
Run Tests count per IP, eh?

I thought your total movement got split up by the IP and run tests only added to the total. So, if you have two IPs and decided to run for one of them, it would only add half the hits worth, and if you had 4 IPs it would only add 1/4th the hits.

Makes more sense the way you explain it, but that puts pretty much every shadow runner in a category that would trump all the world's greatest sprinters easily
Thanee
Strength lets you do awesome things, like lifting people off the ground and throw them around.

Bye
Thanee
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Nov 1 2009, 11:11 PM) *
Run Tests count per IP, eh?

I thought your total movement got split up by the IP and run tests only added to the total.
Your total distance is split by the IPs to find out how far you have gone after each IP, but I have found no rule limiting you to one or two simple actions to increase the total distance. While I agree that it would make more sense to limit the sprint test to one per round that is not RAW.

QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Nov 1 2009, 11:11 PM) *
Makes more sense the way you explain it, but that puts pretty much every shadow runner in a category that would trump all the world's greatest sprinters easily
True, but who says that athletes in the 2070s don't have all sorts of augmentations. I think I remember that one of the SR3 source books stated that 'ware was accepted in sports but not magic.
Let's see, a mundane exceptional athlete (STR 7, Running(Sprint) 7(+2)) gets on average 25m + 20m (2m*2*5 hits) in 3s. Wow that's 100m in 6.7s, even with only one test the sprint takes only 8.6s. I don't want to calculate the speed on an especially good day, when he is using edge.

QUOTE (Thanee @ Nov 1 2009, 11:15 PM) *
Strength lets you do awesome things, like lifting people off the ground and throw them around.

Lol Exotic Ranged Weapon(dwarf)
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 1 2009, 02:37 PM) *
While I agree that it would make more sense to limit the sprint test to one per round that is not RAW.


No, it makes good sense that someone who is extremely quick as far as reactions would be quick on their feet as well. A move-by-wire runner would be able to move his legs like no one's business.
Cheshyr
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 1 2009, 05:37 PM) *
Lol Exotic Ranged Weapon(dwarf)


I tried that with an Orc. After calculating range, I decided to use the Orc as a baseball bat instead. In the end, I still just dropped the orc and strangled the dude.
Tyro
QUOTE (Cheshyr @ Nov 1 2009, 04:37 PM) *
I tried that with an Orc. After calculating range, I decided to use the Orc as a baseball bat instead. In the end, I still just dropped the orc and strangled the dude.

Play a troll. Dwarf tossing is practically a racial sport for them nyahnyah.gif
Traul
In my group we modified climbing gear to turn it into carrying gear. My troll uses it to carry our rigger when she jumps into a drone. Last time I got a bit rough when throwing her in the car and she took 1 point of damage, though embarrassed.gif
Paul
I'm personally not a fan of encumbrance rules, feeling that they pretty much appeal to the math nerds game accountants I don't want at my table. However, I don't think SR4 approach was the solid gold solution. I'm not the guy any system is looking to sell on this front at any rate, because I'm comfortable making rulings on the fly. Having spent my time as a Marine Infantry man humping my gear through my share of the boonies, and a career in law enforcement I know what most of this stuff is to lug around, so if I think you're (A player) getting out of control I'll pull you over.
toturi
The point is unless the GM deems fit to pull out the Strength "challenges" for each of the first few games, you can generally get enough karma to boost that Str to at least Rating 2 by then and frankly, there aren't that many such challenges that the GM can pull without making it look like he is deliberately giving you a hard time. 20 karma by the 4th game should be quite common (usually more in fact) and that is enough to boost Str and another attribute at Rating 1 to Rating 2.
Trench
They should have based Maximum Armor on Strength. Doesnt make sense for someone fresh out of a coma to be running around in riot gear.
Paul
Well is endurance, which what I see wearing body armor for any length of time being a challenge of-and since I've worn various levels of body armor for as long as days a ta time, including standard "Bullet Proof" vests, to flak jackets-at any rate is endurance linked to Strength or Body? I can easily see arguments for both.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 1 2009, 06:37 PM) *
Let's see, a mundane exceptional athlete (STR 7, Running(Sprint) 7(+2)) gets on average 25m + 20m (2m*2*5 hits) in 3s. Wow that's 100m in 6.7s, even with only one test the sprint takes only 8.6s. I don't want to calculate the speed on an especially good day, when he is using edge.


Assume 7 edge, for sheer silliness. Edge added to roll (less silly).

25+ n

n = (2m*2*hits)

dice = 16+7 = 23

hits = 23/3 + (23/6)/3 + ((23/6)/6)/3= 7.667 + 1.277 + 0.21296

hits = 9.157

substituting back up...

distance = 25 + 36 = 61 meters / 3 seconds.

Spending edge to reroll failures (more silly) gives us an amazing 12.778 hits for a whopping 76m / 3 seconds (counting fractional hits). Which makes for a 4 second 100 meter dash, twice as fast as the current record holder.

Without edge, getting max hits, you get 16 => 89m / 3 seconds. Max (assuming no rerolls) with edge gives 23 hits => 117m / 3 sec, with average rerolls (4) making hits you get up to 133m / 3 sec (a 2.25 second 100m dash).
Stahlseele
Why luck should help with running is beyong me.
Dakka Dakka
Edge isn't only luck and you can ask this question with most endeavors.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Trench @ Nov 1 2009, 09:42 PM) *
They should have based Maximum Armor on Strength. Doesnt make sense for someone fresh out of a coma to be running around in riot gear.

QUOTE (Paul @ Nov 2 2009, 06:35 AM) *
Well is endurance, which what I see wearing body armor for any length of time being a challenge of-and since I've worn various levels of body armor for as long as days a ta time, including standard "Bullet Proof" vests, to flak jackets-at any rate is endurance linked to Strength or Body? I can easily see arguments for both.

Best way of doing it (which I did not use in my game, unfortunately) is determining armor encumbrance by:
Ballistic + Impact vs. (Strength + Body) x 2
For every 2 points over (or partial point thereof), you incur a -1 dice pool modifier to all physical actions, including defense tests.

This also has the advantage of increasing the value of Strength.
Paul
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 2 2009, 10:51 AM) *
Why luck should help with running is beyond me.


You've never had a "good day" at the gym? All the factors are basically the same, but some reason you're just on. Obviously your mileage will vary, right?
Stahlseele
Considering certain health problems, no, i never had a good day at the gym. But yeah, i guess someone could just have a good day somehow.
Trench
Strength + Body * 2?? That makes 42 points on a cybertroll. Strength + Body straight makes perfect sense.
Tyro
QUOTE (Trench @ Nov 2 2009, 01:26 PM) *
Strength + Body * 2?? That makes 42 points on a cybertroll. Strength + Body straight makes perfect sense.

Seconded. This is one of the best fixes for armor encumbrance.
Faradon
QUOTE (Tyro @ Nov 2 2009, 03:31 PM) *
Seconded. This is one of the best fixes for armor encumbrance.


Agreed here as well...

One other alternative I could see would be changing the cost to raise a stat based on the stat itself. AGI costs Rating X6, Str Rating X4, Bod Rating X5, etc. (just random stats/numbers)

Minimum Str requirements for other weapons might be a good idea as well. Lugging around a HMG or even a LMG and trying to "fire from the hip" might be possible for a str 10 troll, but might be a bit harder for a Str 2 Human Street Sam.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Trench @ Nov 2 2009, 09:26 PM) *
Strength + Body * 2?? That makes 42 points on a cybertroll. Strength + Body straight makes perfect sense.
No, actually the *2 makes sense because you do not compare that value to each of the armor values but to the sum of ballistic and impact armor. Otherwise Joe Average couldn't even wear an Urban Explorer Jumpsuit without taking a -3 penalty.
QUOTE (Faradon @ Nov 2 2009, 10:08 PM) *
Minimum Str requirements for other weapons might be a good idea as well. Lugging around a HMG or even a LMG and trying to "fire from the hip" might be possible for a str 10 troll, but might be a bit harder for a Str 2 Human Street Sam.
Just swallow your pride and get a gyro stabilization unit, even if your a STR 15 troll. That piece of gear is just too damn good.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 2 2009, 03:29 PM) *
Just swallow your pride and get a gyro stabilization unit, even if your a STR 15 troll. That piece of gear is just too damn good.



No Joke... Buy It, Love It, Live It...

Keep the Faith
AngelisStorm
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 2 2009, 03:18 PM) *
Considering certain health problems, no, i never had a good day at the gym. But yeah, i guess someone could just have a good day somehow.


"The Zone?" Pretty much anyone, barring serious medical issues, can have a good day at the gym, or any other physical sport.

Heck, my little bro has immune system problems, and every couple of months he gets in the zone on archery, and just pegs people left and right (sometimes in the face* while they charge).

*medieval combat group
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Trench @ Nov 2 2009, 01:26 PM) *
Strength + Body * 2?? That makes 42 points on a cybertroll. Strength + Body straight makes perfect sense.

No. As Dakka mentioned, it works as follows:

Rules as Written Body * 2 vs. Ballistic or Impact (whichever is higher).
Suggested Rule (Body + Strength) * 2 vs. Ballistic and Impact.

It changes from one attribute times two vs. one attribute, to two attributes times two vs. two attributes.

Yes, generally speaking, the maximum armor allotment for Orks & Trolls will increase slightly - this is the point. Strength is now a valuable attribute, & thus justifies paying for the racial modifiers (note I also adjust racial costs, as appropriate for their actual positive & negative abilities). Combined with my other ruling of Strength-based Recoil Compensation being increased from 1 at 6, +1 per 3 thereafter to 1 at 4, +1 per 2 thereafter, Strength is no longer a "dump stat".
Stahlseele
QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Nov 3 2009, 04:38 AM) *
"The Zone?" Pretty much anyone, barring serious medical issues, can have a good day at the gym, or any other physical sport.

Heck, my little bro has immune system problems, and every couple of months he gets in the zone on archery, and just pegs people left and right (sometimes in the face* while they charge).

*medieval combat group

troubles with my diaphragm/midriff/phrenic.
I can't do much of anything that has to do with repeating stuttering movement.
swimming and riding a bike are, as of now, the two only things i can do where i won't get stitches so bad that ia lmost black out from being unable to breathe . .
Dakka Dakka
Ouch, I feel sorry for you. But even with biking and swimming aren't there days where the same exercise feels easier and you go faster than on other days for no apparent reason? That you could call "being in the zone" as well.
AngelisStorm
Sorry to hear that Stahlseele. I have a friend who is occasionally on swimteam, but just as often is falling apart at the seams. (Not real sure why, but horrible arthritis I think is involved.) My post was definitely not meant as a "walk it off!" statement, I just wanted to 2nd that Edge/Luck/Being in the Zone does make sense. (As much as anything in this game does, at least.)
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