Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: How important is Strength?
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Cheshyr @ Nov 5 2009, 07:33 PM) *
I was under the impression, from the wording, that SS could only be modded to BF, and SA to FA. Also, 6 slots per weapon... and either BF or FA would be 4 of those slots.
Can't find that restriction. 6 slots? Nobody needs BF anyway. You can still fire short bursts with FA, the only difference by RAW is that you can't call a shot on a FA short burst.
Stingray
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 5 2009, 10:02 PM) *
Can't find that restriction. 6 slots? Nobody needs BF anyway. You can still fire short bursts with FA, the only difference by RAW is that you can't call a shot on a FA short burst.

six slots for weapon modification can be found: Arsenal pg 148. Terminology: "the number of slots
filled by a modification. Weapons have a standard maximum slot value of 6,..."
Dakka Dakka
I meant the restriction that only SS->BF or SA->FA were possible. I know that weapons have six slots, but one Fire Selection Change from SS to FA costs only 4. I was under the impression that Cheshyr wanted to use all six to get BF and FA.
Cheshyr
It was just a grammer thing. More vague wording, and I doubt there's a right answer. Depending on how you read it, SS could be linked with BF, and SA to FA.

QUOTE
Upgrading an SS or SA weapon to BF or FA mode is considered a large modification.


Either way, it would still be 4, so you'd still have 2 slots left to use for 2 of the 3 other mods you mentioned... unless there's yet another loophole that I missed. Something in my brain says FA Assault Cannons weren't the designers intent... but then again, I'm still coming to terms with the lack of coherency across the entire system.
Lok1 :)
What the hell is going on hear, didn't this thread start out as a quistion about strength, now it appears to be a debate on gun fireing modes?
Cheshyr
It degenerated when we started talking about using Strength to carry heavy weapons and assist with recoil. We should probably get back on track. My bad for the off-topic.
Dakka Dakka
Yup the wording is a bit ambiguous, but I'm usually on the standpoint that everything that isn't explicitly forbidden is allowed.

The shock pad is an accessory as is the gyromount. Only the personalized grip is a modification. 5 of the 6 slots are full. The weapon has 8 points of RC 6 of which can be used to compensate the running modifier, but you only need two of that. biggrin.gif

I agree that assault cannons of the Shadowrun type are not intended to be modded and used like this, but it is possible by RAW, and they function a bit more like assault cannons of other systems.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 5 2009, 12:02 PM) *
You can still fire short bursts with FA, the only difference by RAW is that you can't call a shot on a FA short burst.

Incorrect. The only time you can fire a Short Burst with a weapon set to Full Auto is when you do not have enough bullets for the normal FA burst.

Also worth noting is that while Burst Fire (aka Short Burst) is limited to BF weapons, Long Bursts are only possible with FA weapons.
Ranger
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Nov 5 2009, 09:32 PM) *
Incorrect. The only time you can fire a Short Burst with a weapon set to Full Auto is when you do not have enough bullets for the normal FA burst.

Also worth noting is that while Burst Fire (aka Short Burst) is limited to BF weapons, Long Bursts are only possible with FA weapons.


Are you sure? SR4A says:

QUOTE
Full-Auto Mode

Weapons that can fire in full-auto mode throw bullets for as long as the attacker keeps the trigger pulled. Characters can use a weapon in fullauto mode to fire bursts, as noted above, each taking a Simple Action. Full-auto weapons can also be used to fire long bursts with a Simple Action or full bursts with a Complex Action.


The "above" section the following:

QUOTE
Burst -Fire Mode

In burst-fire mode, firearms spit out bullets in rapid succession every time the trigger ispulled. Firing a weapon in burst-fire mode is a Simple Action, which means that a character can fire up to two bursts per Action Phase. Each burst requires a separate attack test. The firing character can choose to fire a narrow burst or a wide burst, each described below. Both use up three bullets. The first burst fired in an Action Phase inflicts a 2 recoil modifier, the second inflicts an additional 3 recoil (neutralized by recoil compensation, if any).


I interpret that as meaning that you can fire short bursts in full-auto mode.
Dakka Dakka
I'd write the same thing but Ranger was quicker. I'd just like to add these passages are identical in SR4.
Ranger
Heh.

I should emphasize the sentence, "Full-auto weapons can also be used to fire long bursts with a Simple Action or full bursts with a Complex Action." Emphasis on "also". That is to say, they can fire short bursts, and they can also fire long bursts or full bursts.
Stahlseele
Furthermore, what stops you firing only one bullet more than is in a short burst?
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 6 2009, 07:43 AM) *
Furthermore, what stops you firing only one bullet more than is in a short burst?
Unfortunately the rules. FA can only fire the clearly defined short, long and full bursts. The only way to change the number of bullets is to have a nearly empty magazine.

I would have preferred to rule the FA mode in the following way:

In FA you can fire up to 10 bullets in an action phase. Up to 3 rounds is considered a short burst and takes a simple action, up to 6 rounds is a long burst taking a simple action as well but only one such action may be performed and up to 10 as a full burst for a complex action.

The drawbacks and benefits of this are the following:
Each round fired in an action phase after the first adds -1 because of recoil, which of course can be compensated with RC. e.g. 4 shots in the first simple action and 2 shots in the second result in -3 in the first action and -5 in the second.

Each bullet after the first in an action(simple or complex) either adds +1 to the DV or -1 to the defense test. In the above example the first burst would give +3DV or-3 Defense and the second one +1DV or -1 Defense.

BF works in the same way with the difference that the number of shots is limited to exactly three.
Traul
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 6 2009, 07:59 AM) *
I would have preferred to rule the FA mode in the following way:

In FA you can fire up to 10 bullets in an action phase. Up to 3 rounds is considered a short burst and takes a simple action, up to 6 rounds is a long burst taking a simple action as well but only one such action may be performed and up to 10 as a full burst for a complex action.

This is the SR3 rule, except that in SR3 the FA mode always takes a complex action, even for 3 bullets. It must have been considered too complicated for SR4.
Muspellsheimr
I had apparently missed the "also", interpreting it as the passage above refering to rules on narrow vs. wide, & not enough bullets.

This is something I will have to house rule - otherwise, what is the point of having a weapon capable of Burst Fire and Full Auto, when FA makes BF redundant (note upgrading to BF & to FA cost the same mod slots, and numerous weapons have both fire modes listed).
Axl
I particularly liked my troll archer with Strength 15 and a rating 15 bow. smokin.gif

Then they changed the rules in 4A. question.gif
Stahlseele
15 is bullshit, you can get it up even higher, if you're REALLY trying ^^
i think i got it up to 20 once, through all kinds of little loopholes . . THAT was some silly Stuff i could do O.o
Basically, throw Cars and the such. And with STR+4 + STR/2=34M Damage with Hand Blades it got even more ridicoulous *snickers*
pbangarth
So far, the most helpful thing for me I've seen in this thread so far is the house rule about using STR and BOD together to determine the amount of armour a character can carry. It makes good sense.
Corgak
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Nov 6 2009, 12:23 PM) *
This is something I will have to house rule - otherwise, what is the point of having a weapon capable of Burst Fire and Full Auto, when FA makes BF redundant (note upgrading to BF & to FA cost the same mod slots, and numerous weapons have both fire modes listed).


as far as the rules, there is no point, however in actuality there is a difference in how the weapon functions. FA = hold trigger down and it keeps shooting until you let off or run out of ammo, BF = shoot three bullets (unless there are less bullets in the gun) with a single trigger pull and if you hold it down it doesnt shoot additional bullets until you let up and press the trigger again.
Dakka Dakka
As far as the rules are concerned there is a difference. With a short( 3 round) Burst in FA mode you cannot call a shot. That is only possible in BF, weird as this sounds. And yes, BF is not really necessary. IRL there are several automatic weapons that only have SA/FA.
Axl
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 6 2009, 07:49 PM) *
15 is bullshit, you can get it up even higher, if you're REALLY trying ^^
i think i got it up to 20 once, through all kinds of little loopholes . . THAT was some silly Stuff i could do O.o
Basically, throw Cars and the such. And with STR+4 + STR/2=34M Damage with Hand Blades it got even more ridicoulous *snickers*


Er, are you talking about third edition? indifferent.gif
Cthulhudreams
Just combine STR and body. STR is a waste of space stat in future games.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Axl @ Nov 7 2009, 10:51 AM) *
Er, are you talking about third edition? indifferent.gif

Why yes, yes i am, indeed O.o
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012