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Stahlseele
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 3 2009, 09:54 AM) *
Ouch, I feel sorry for you. But even with biking and swimming aren't there days where the same exercise feels easier and you go faster than on other days for no apparent reason? That you could call "being in the zone" as well.

No, not faster. And certainly not with swimming. Too easy to just stop.
But going longer than i should on a bike has happened. Tunnel vision.
Just keep going until i am where i want to be, no matter how far it is.
Then completely crash for some days and repeat untill i am home again.
When i was 10 Years old, i had crossed big parts of Germany by bike.

I still can't think of edge as anything other than a luck stat <.<
And it's really hard for me to accept luck factoring into such things at all.
But at least, i am trying.
Saint Sithney
Try thinking about Edge as the propensity to reach a transcendent mental state.
We've all had those moments where we're just in a headspace where everything just aligns for us - that sort of focus that we can sometimes bring to bear on a task, but which we can't maintain in our everyday lives.
Sponge
QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Nov 3 2009, 04:14 AM) *
I just wanted to 2nd that Edge/Luck/Being in the Zone does make sense. (As much as anything in this game does, at least.)


Heck I've been "in the zone" playing FPS games, programming, and other stuff while sitting at my computer, doesn't have to be an intense physical activity smile.gif

Whipstitch
The effect of a proper mental state on performance is pretty profound. Keep in mind that even some people with Tourette's have learned to be able to suppress their tics temporarily through concentration. Oddly enough, this is sometimes easier for them while performing difficult tasks, not routine ordinary ones. For example, Tim Howard is an American goalkeeper who plays for Everton, and he has stated before that tics are a non-issue when he's got a player bearing down on him. For one thing, he is capable of suppressing his tics for periods of time even in daily life, and the mental state he reaches while in the flow of the game practically shuts them automatically even if they aren't what he is concerned about at the time. He might get a tic or two if the ball is mired at midfield, but that's the extent of it. Frankly, I'm prepared to venture that the ability to get into the zone and stay there is one of the key features of a dominant professional athlete. I've talked to more than a few in my life, and when it comes to performance shutting out distractions is about all they ever talk about. It's part of what separates the stars from the gym rats.
Apathy
QUOTE (harlokin @ Nov 1 2009, 04:13 AM) *
We've just started playing SR4, and the growing consensus in the group appears to be that Strength is a marginal attribute at best in combat.

I agree that Strength is underpowered with rules as written. I think that some of the optional rules (e.g. the one about getting additional recoil comp from very high strength) help, but aren't sufficient by themselves to make strength as important as agility in any of the core builds.

Possible house rules that make strength more significant include:
  • making strength a factor (or even the only factor) in how much armor you can wear
  • allowing users to use strength rather than agility as the linked attribute for unarmed and for some of the armed melee skills. (This [rightfully I think] make's trolls king of the melee world. I know that this is unpopular, but I still have problems with the idea that an exceedingly graceful weakling can beat up a guy with the strength and mass of a rhino in hand to hand combat. Would suggest that if you do this you also reduce base damage from armed to use Str/3, and unarmed to use Str/4, instead of Str/2. This way trolls could punch through car doors, but not through APC armor.)
Stahlseele
Now wait for the people to argue about the weak old little kung fu master sensei who can beat up people with his skill of 7 and his attribute of 1 . .
But yes, i agree, Trolls should be king in Combat. Especially, in CLOSE COMBAT . . At least, now they get to wear more armor than Elves <.<
In SR3, Quickness was used for Armor Encumberance and the such . . Which elves got a Boost to, and Trolls got a malus to . . so the stupid dumb strength1 body1 elf could carry more armor than the body15 strength15 troll . .
OneTrikPony
I should preface by saying that I love playing strong characters. My "one trick" in my handle; it's building and playing the brute. It's my first and favorite thing to do in any game.

But even I'll say that unarmed combat needs to be based on Agility not Strength. the weak old little kung fu master sensei will have a hard time beating up any one with a strength of 1 because he isn't going to do enough damage. His ability withhold dice from the pool but successfully increase the damage he can do with called shots and other tecniques due to his high agility makes sence. The low agility brute with high strength that rarely connects, but is devistating when he does, makes sence.

There are two ways to highlight the utility of the strength stat in the game.

the first has already been mentioned. Strength is like Charisma, you have to Roleplay Strength. This is largely dependent on the GM catching his player doing things things they wouldn't normally be able to do as waify elf sissies.

The second is to set the strength and lifting table in the book to something that reflects reality. A Str 7 character (olymic level for a human) should be able to routinly Deadlift 400Kg. (900lbs.) and Overhead Press 200Kg (450lbs). Once players realize they can have that kind of power at their finger tips see if they don't find all kinds of uses for it.

edited by OTP for people who nitpic my math wink.gif
Traul
QUOTE (Apathy @ Nov 3 2009, 09:15 PM) *
I still have problems with the idea that an exceedingly graceful weakling can beat up a guy with the strength and mass of a rhino in hand to hand combat.

I don't think it is the case. The elf might find it easier to touch the troll (not even that much because of the troll's reach), but he won't inflict any significant damage. Then the troll retaliates, gets a decent chance to hit too (thanks again to his reach) and smashes that punny elf through the wall. Contrary to SR3, a high Melee dice pool does not protect you from the opponent's attacks.
Godwyn
I think the (Str + Bod)*2 against Ballistic + Impact armor is an awesome idea, and it totally will not affect my Mortimer of London outfit anyways, or my business suit.

Strength may be a bit less powerful than in other games, but is that a bad thing? While the exact weight of items is left out, it makes very clear they do still have a weight, and situations do come up where it quite suddenly becomes very important. Like my low strength elven face trying to drag our unconscious .03 essence sammy. Me, "I'll drag him into the nearby alley. . .Can I drag him?" GM, "No."

I agree that agility should remain the stat to hit for the same reasons already stated.
Cheshyr
I also think the mythical 'weak old martial arts master' is a bad example. Sure, they're not body builders... but they're anything but weak. I'm no small fry, but all my instructors over the years have been smaller than me and stronger than me. Applied strength is the important part. Any unarmed fighter with a Strength of 1 is in for a world of hurt unless they develop some nerve techniques.

On a different note, the players had to make 2 runs in my last run because they couldn't lift the loot boxes. Strength has it's place... just generally not in combat according to SR rules right now.
JonathanC
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 3 2009, 01:18 PM) *
Now wait for the people to argue about the weak old little kung fu master sensei who can beat up people with his skill of 7 and his attribute of 1 . .
But yes, i agree, Trolls should be king in Combat. Especially, in CLOSE COMBAT . . At least, now they get to wear more armor than Elves <.<
In SR3, Quickness was used for Armor Encumberance and the such . . Which elves got a Boost to, and Trolls got a malus to . . so the stupid dumb strength1 body1 elf could carry more armor than the body15 strength15 troll . .

The thing is, elderly martial artists aren't actually weak at all. When you're in that kind of shape, even a fairly thin looking person is surprisingly strong. Strength and Agility should pull an equal share of the weight in melee combat, but every system I've played favors one over the other.
Cheshyr
QUOTE (Godwyn @ Nov 3 2009, 04:32 PM) *
I think the (Str + Bod)*2 against Ballistic + Impact armor is an awesome idea, and it totally will not affect my Mortimer of London outfit anyways, or my business suit.

Strength may be a bit less powerful than in other games, but is that a bad thing? While the exact weight of items is left out, it makes very clear they do still have a weight, and situations do come up where it quite suddenly becomes very important. Like my low strength elven face trying to drag our unconscious .03 essence sammy. Me, "I'll drag him into the nearby alley. . .Can I drag him?" GM, "No."

I agree that agility should remain the stat to hit for the same reasons already stated.


The mage in my game has already circumvented this by summoning an earth elemental to do his heavy lifting. Saved my troll bacon one time.
Apathy
My idea was not that unarmed would have to be strength based, but that the character would be able to choose between styles that were strength based and ones that were agility based. Not all styles of combat are focused on precision targeting or faster movement. It's possible to imagine a style that is focused on the maximum delivery of force. The reality is in real fights it's nearly impossible to completely dodge all punches. Much of the time all a fighter can do is block or move enough so that they take the hit on a less vulnerable part of their body. If you're in a fight with a person that has a strength rating 8 points higher than you than there is no way to block a punch without incurring some damage. There's no portion of my body that is durable enough to withstand a full force punch/kick from a rhino - if I block with my arm or leg I end up with a broken arm or leg! Granted, this is superior to not blocking and ending up with a broken skull. But I'll get damaged either way.

Another possible idea, in keeping with the idea that generally both participants in a fight take a level of damage (even the winner): Continue to use Agility + Skill for each combatant on the success test. However, then have BOTH participants resist damage each round with the opponent's base attack damage reduced by the net hits on the success test.
Example:
Tom Troll (TT) and Eddie Elf (EE) square off in the boxing ring.
  • TT's got Body 10, Strength 8, Agility 2, and +1 for Reach.
  • EE's got Body 3, Strength 4, and Agility 6. Both characters are even in skill (3).

Using the existing rules for Unarmed Combat:
[ Spoiler ]


Using these altered rules for Unarmed Combat:
[ Spoiler ]


[Edit]Note that in reality this would be closer to how a bare-knuckle boxing match would work. Otherwise the gloves would reduce damage by at least 2 points (Making TT's and EE's base damage 3S and 0S, respectively.) Which explains how boxers can go so damn long before getting knocked out, unless there's a significant disparity in skill or one makes a careless mistake (glitch!)
Traul
QUOTE (Cheshyr @ Nov 3 2009, 11:22 PM) *
The mage in my game has already circumvented this by summoning an earth elemental to do his heavy lifting. Saved my troll bacon one time.

A Levitate spell would also work, probably for a lower drain.

Magic Fingers + Levitate = get your beer from the fridge without getting your ass out of the couch silly.gif
AngelisStorm
Though most of the people here know it already, I'm going to throw out there on principle that center of balance plays a huge part (one of the tricks of the "kung fu" master).

I've seen people in shoving, lifting, and wrestling matches hold off people much larger than themselves. One friend of mine was taught the (very) basics of Sumo by litterally a "little old kung fu master" (the head of Goju Ryu karate, probably a decade ago) over the course of half an hour, and to this day I've seen him stop people much larger than himself, and then shove them back across the floor.

(Sorry, I just love the "kung fu" master -> teaching sumo example.)

However, in the case of the "good" (not maxed) Elf vs. the Troll, what type of dice pools are we looking at? Instinctively I want to say the body + armor of the troll is going to negate all the elf's damage (w/o called shots). Is this gut instinct likely correct?
JonathanC
Has anyone mentioned yet that, according to RAW, a STR 1 elf could easily carry and even fire the supposedly gigantic Panther cannon? With no recoil modifier?
Stahlseele
In SR3, everybody who fired the PAC had to make a roll to see if they ended up on their butt afterwards. And everybody had to resist 8L Stun too if i remember correctly.
No matter how Strong you were, no matter how tough you were, no matter how much recoil compensation you had, no matter how much armor your wore. Well, actually, armor helped against this damage i think. so the Troll would have to resist more damage than the elf because of his usually lower armor, but he would, of course, have way more dice to resist the damage . . . but strength and/or body helped with the not comically falling to your butt after maing a big BOOM.
Godwyn
The mage was a bit too busy to cast levitate.


For strength not mattering in melee though, has anyone never seen a strength 18 troll with a reach 4 weapon?
Traul
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 4 2009, 12:35 AM) *
In SR3, everybody who fired the PAC had to make a roll to see if they ended up on their butt afterwards. And everybody had to resist 8L Stun too if i remember correctly.

These rules made it to Arsenal, along with the minimum BOD and STR 8 to carry heavy weapons. But the damage got nastier: a trauma damper cannot shrug it off automatically anymore.
Stahlseele
Well, that's what the Pain-Editor is there for.
JonathanC
QUOTE (Traul @ Nov 3 2009, 04:25 PM) *
These rules made it to Arsenal, along with the minimum BOD and STR 8 to carry heavy weapons. But the damage got nastier: a trauma damper cannot shrug it off automatically anymore.

I don't recall reading any rules about taking stun damage from firing an assault cannon, or even having a STR/BOD requirement.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Nov 3 2009, 02:04 PM) *
The second is to set the strength and lifting table in the book to something that reflects reality. A Str 7 character (olymic level for a human) should be able to routinly Deadlift 400Kg. (900lbs.) and Overhead Press 200Kg (250lbs). Once players realize they can have that kind of power at their finger tips see if they don't find all kinds of uses for it.



I am sorry... SImple Nitpick...

400kg is 880 lbs, not 900, and 200kg is equal to 440 lbs, not 250lbs...

Nitpick Over...

Keep the Faith
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Nov 3 2009, 06:19 PM) *
I don't recall reading any rules about taking stun damage from firing an assault cannon, or even having a STR/BOD requirement.



Me Neither, I guess that I will have to go back and look it up...

Keep the Faith
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 3 2009, 11:19 PM) *
I am sorry... SImple Nitpick...



I like the original math though. If 400kg = 900lbs, half of the first is less than a third of the other! biggrin.gif
The Monk
Here's a thought: instead of the typical STR/2 how about STR-2, with a minimum of one of course.
JonathanC
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 3 2009, 07:21 PM) *
Me Neither, I guess that I will have to go back and look it up...

Keep the Faith

I found it. It's in the Advanced combat section, so they're optional rules. Basically, only people with str/bod 8 or higher can wield heavy weapons without a gyromount, and anybody using a heavy weapon takes stun equal to half the damage rating (and can be knocked down), which isn't really that big of a deal.
Dakka Dakka
You should add if they do so in the aforementioned manner, to be clear. Users of mounted heavy weapons never suffer stun, even with this ridiculous rule.

As I said, use a gyromount and your worries are gone.

@Apathy's Alternate Rules: You do klnow that in SR4 the defnder cannot damage the attacker right?
Apathy
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 4 2009, 12:20 PM) *
@Apathy's Alternate Rules: You do klnow that in SR4 the defnder cannot damage the attacker right?

That would be a good reason for me to have called it a house rule then, ne?
Dakka Dakka
This mechanism was in your summary of RAW as well.
QUOTE (Apathy @ Nov 3 2009, 11:39 PM) *
Using the existing rules for Unarmed Combat:
[ Spoiler ]

Emphasis mine.
JonathanC
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 4 2009, 09:20 AM) *
You should add if they do so in the aforementioned manner, to be clear. Users of mounted heavy weapons never suffer stun, even with this ridiculous rule.

As I said, use a gyromount and your worries are gone.

@Apathy's Alternate Rules: You do klnow that in SR4 the defnder cannot damage the attacker right?

The wording in Arsenal suggests that it happens regardless of whether you're wearing a gyromount or not.
Traul
QUOTE
Any character with a Body of 8 or higher and Strength of 8 or higher can carry and use a heavy weapon without benefit of a stabilizer. However, whenever
a character fires a heavy weapon he is carrying, he must resist Stun...

"However" links the second sentence to the first so we should still be in the same case. I also understand the "he is carrying" as referring to the use of "carry" in the first sentence. But I see where you came from.

Funny thing: the devs only did the minimal work to adapt these rules to SR4, so this wording comes from SR3. Has anybody seen it that way before?
Apathy
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 4 2009, 12:27 PM) *
This mechanism was in your summary of RAW as well.

Fair enough. I didn't state who was attacking in my scenario, and my description of events is only accurate if EE is attacking TT. Not strickly speaking wrong, but definitely unclear and poorly worded on my part. The spirit of the post still stands as written, however. Having only the attacker able to do damage means that it just takes twice as many passes for one guy or the other to get knocked out.
Mystweaver
I'm just glad I still play SR3 where Strength is a VERY useful stat!!!!
Apathy
QUOTE (Mystweaver @ Nov 4 2009, 02:17 PM) *
I'm just glad I still play SR3 where Strength is a VERY useful stat!!!!

Could you refresh my memory? Whay is Strength a particularly useful stat in SR3?
Ranger
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Nov 2 2009, 11:29 AM) *
Best way of doing it (which I did not use in my game, unfortunately) is determining armor encumbrance by:
Ballistic + Impact vs. (Strength + Body) x 2
For every 2 points over (or partial point thereof), you incur a -1 dice pool modifier to all physical actions, including defense tests.

This also has the advantage of increasing the value of Strength.


As with many of the others, I love this house rule idea. However, the character should suffer the -1 penalty for every 4 AV points over the limit, if you want to keep the penalty severity on the same scale as the rule as written.

The following example illustrates the reason:

Bob has Strength 2 and Body 3. With your house rule, he can wear up to 10 total AV from armor without penalty ((2 + 3) x 2 = 10). He can wear an armor vest without penalty (6 Ballistic + 4 Impact = 10 total AV). If he puts on a helmet (+2 Ballistic, +2 Impact, for a total of 4 more AV), that puts his total AV at 14, which incurs a -2 penalty since that's 2 increments of 2 over his limit of 10.

With the rule as written, Bob can normally wear armor with Ballistic AV of 6 or less and Impact AV of 6 or less due to his Body of 3 (3 x 2 = 6). If he wears an armor vest (Ballistic 6, Impact 4), he incurs no penalty. If he then adds a helmet (+2 Ballistic, +2 Impact, for a total AV of Ballistic 8 and Impact 6), he incurs a -1 penalty due to being 1 increment of 2 over his limit of 6. Thus, Bob suffers twice the penalty with your house rule.

With your house rule, if you instead applied a -1 penalty per 4 AV over the limit, then Bob can wear the armor vest and the helmet and suffer only a -1 penalty (14 total AV, which is 1 increment of 4 over his limit of 10), which would put the house rule back in line with the rule as written.
Mystweaver
QUOTE (Apathy @ Nov 4 2009, 08:23 PM) *
Could you refresh my memory? Whay is Strength a particularly useful stat in SR3?


if you have 6 strength, in unarmed you will do 6 moderate stun... minus an average impact armour of say 3 and your target numbers are 3 for body tests. Get that strength up and the body test goes up - thus very quickly it plays a vital role in damage in unarmed. In melee you get all sorts of bonuses from the weapon so a katana is +3 moderate physical. So, a street sam (or a troll) with strenth 12 is going to do 15 moderate with a katana... hmmmm 12's to resist... that some seriously DEAD peons.

Likewise, with a low strength character in melee, the only way to compensate is with a high skill to get enough successes to make it hard for the defending character to resist.

e.g.

AA has Strength 2 and unarmed 10, versus BB whou has Strength 6 and unarmed 4. AA rolls 10 dice and scores an average of 5 successes. BB gets an average of 2 making a net 3 successes. BB takes 2 Serious stun (staged up by succeses). He thus needs six 2's to take no damage.
In an unfortuntate turn of events should BB score net successes of just 1, then AA has to get four 6's to take no damage.

Out with combat, strength runs the same way as usual by determining the distance of a bow and thrown weapons as well as the obvious carrying capacity.

Also every melee skill is a strength based skill and thus if your strength is high, the karma cost to get your melee skill up to the level of your strength is less.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Nov 4 2009, 11:54 AM) *
I found it. It's in the Advanced combat section, so they're optional rules. Basically, only people with str/bod 8 or higher can wield heavy weapons without a gyromount, and anybody using a heavy weapon takes stun equal to half the damage rating (and can be knocked down), which isn't really that big of a deal.


Its a decent rule if used intelligently. Yes, a minigun should need a gyromount. A grenade launcher not so much.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Nov 3 2009, 05:18 PM) *
The thing is, elderly martial artists aren't actually weak at all. When you're in that kind of shape, even a fairly thin looking person is surprisingly strong. Strength and Agility should pull an equal share of the weight in melee combat, but every system I've played favors one over the other.


Depending on how the game designer decides to define the attributes strength can easily encompass the agility portion of unarmed combat. Add in ideas of some types of muscle control and its not far fetched that strength is the melee combat stat. When you narrowly define strength as the I lift crap stat it becomes worthless. If you write the fluff of a stat correctly you can justify balanced stats in the rules.

In SR4 the fluff of strength makes it the I lift crap stat, the rules make it mostly a dump stat and yet it still costs the same as every other stat. If stats don't even come close in power you really need differing costs for each stat. If the stats are mostly balanced then sure go with SR4's everything is 10BP or stat X 5 in karma.
Traul
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Nov 5 2009, 05:33 AM) *
Its a decent rule if used intelligently. Yes, a minigun should need a gyromount. A grenade launcher not so much.

It was never meant to be used on grenade launchers: in SR3, grenade and missile launchers were separated from heavy weapons. As I said previously, the devs pulled the less work they could to adapt this to SR4. So they kept the wording and did not check that the meaning of words had changed.

If a line has to be drawn somewhere, one could use the same classification as for vehicle weapons: weapons that need a gyro and weapons that need a reinforced mount are the same. It makes sense and it's easy to remember.
Silverback
QUOTE (Mystweaver @ Nov 5 2009, 02:42 AM) *
Also every melee skill is a strength based skill and thus if your strength is high, the karma cost to get your melee skill up to the level of your strength is less.


With the exception of "Whips", which is linked to Agility.
Cheshyr
(removed)
Stingray
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Nov 4 2009, 07:54 PM) *
I found it. It's in the Advanced combat section, so they're optional rules. Basically, only people with str/bod 8 or higher can wield heavy weapons without a gyromount, and anybody using a heavy weapon takes stun equal to half the damage rating (and can be knocked down), which isn't really that big of a deal.

That optional rule affect also carrying them..so say Goodbye!! your Ares Alpha (Do you remember
that underbarrel grenade launcher??!) it is good thing that is OPTIONAL rule.. biggrin.gif
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE ('Arsenal p. 162')
Heavy weapons are so large and potentially damaging to the user that they cannot be carried and fired without the help of a gyro stabilization unit.
grinbig.gif Especially the pistol-sized MGL-6 rotfl.gif silly.gif
While you as a GM should discourage people walking around with an assault cannon in each hand, it should be by an environment that reacts to someone running down the street with military grade weaponry not through dubious game mechanics.
Stingray
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 5 2009, 03:09 PM) *
grinbig.gif Especially the pistol-sized MGL-6 rotfl.gif silly.gif
While you as a GM should discourage people walking around with an assault cannon in each hand, it should be by an environment that reacts to someone running down the street with military grade weaponry not through dubious game mechanics.

Gm can always say: Assault Cannons are not available..even with restricted gear quality..
PC's choices of weapons and equipment are always under Gm's approval rule..
Dakka Dakka
That's one way of doing it. I thought more along the lines of calling in a squadron of attack choppers and asking politely to drop the weapons.
JonathanC
Funny thing about assault cannons: the fluff always describes them as having incredible recoil, but since they tend to be SS, there are no recoil rules that cover them. The recoil compensation from the gyromount technically isn't needed.
Cheshyr
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Nov 5 2009, 11:31 AM) *
Funny thing about assault cannons: the fluff always describes them as having incredible recoil, but since they tend to be SS, there are no recoil rules that cover them. The recoil compensation from the gyromount technically isn't needed.


QUOTE (Arsenal p151)
Firing Selection Change: Modifies the gun’s selection of firing modes to include more options. Available options are single shot (SS), semi automatic (SA), burst fire (BF), and full auto (FA). Upgrading an SS or SA weapon to BF or FA mode is considered a large modification.


BF Assault Cannon FTW. love.gif
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Cheshyr @ Nov 5 2009, 05:37 PM) *
BF Assault Cannon FTW. love.gif
love.gif FA Assault Cannon love.gif Same Slot Cost. Add a personalized Grip, and a shock pad and a gyromount.
One Long Burst or two short ones while Running without penalty! Full Bursts are at -2 while standing.
Cheshyr
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 5 2009, 01:14 PM) *
love.gif FA Assault Cannon love.gif Same Slot Cost. Add a personalized Grip, and a shock pad and a gyromount.
One Long Burst or two short ones while Running without penalty! Full Bursts are at -2 while standing.


I was under the impression, from the wording, that SS could only be modded to BF, and SA to FA. Also, 6 slots per weapon... and either BF or FA would be 4 of those slots.

Still, scary.
Traul
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Nov 5 2009, 05:31 PM) *
Funny thing about assault cannons: the fluff always describes them as having incredible recoil, but since they tend to be SS, there are no recoil rules that cover them. The recoil compensation from the gyromount technically isn't needed.

The damage and possible knockdown from the optional rules are also physical consequences of recoil.
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