Just NPC regenerating creatures, though. An NPC shifter uses Critters, but a PC shifter uses SRComp.

No difference, SRComp has no rules for regeneration. PCs use the same regeneration rules as the NPCs.

I reread the section regarding shifter regen in SRComp and I think it reads the same as the rules that was quoted above so I do not see the difference. The only thing that differs in the regen rules are that the shifter cannot regen damage from silver.

The difference is that a PC shifter has overdamage. A PC shifter can fail the roll to regenerate and still be alive, just wounded like any other PC. an NPC apparently has no overdamage and dies instantly if he is forced to make a regen roll and misses it.

That's the primary difference I saw.

Sorry to derail the thread, but my players are always bitching how they want to play shapeshifters and vampires as characters. Well, otherwise its all good, but I just hate how the regeneration pretty much makes such characters invincible. I was thinking of houseruling it so that whenever a character regenerates damage, their essence drops. For vampires, it would be as if they just lost essence through their Essence loss weakness, and for shapeshifters, well, maybe let them gain their essence back at 1 point / hour. If the char hits 0 essence, well, they're dead, DEAD, DED!!! No karma pool, no Hand of God, no nothing. Just plain old dead. And yeah, if they take Deadly damage, they still have to roll that 1D6 to see if they regenerate in the first place. I'm not just sure how much they should lose essence, maybe 1 essence / damage level regenerated. So if a vamp gets a serious wound, which it automatically regens, it loses 3 essence. You get the idea.

I don't think I'd be as harsh as removing an essence per wound level. Temporary (or permenant in the case of vamps) essence loss from regeneration does seem reasonable though. I'd personally go for 1 essence lost each time they need to make the regeneration test, 2 if it's a traumatic one. IE: yes, Mr vamp could get back-up and hit you again, and again, and again, but he will be slightly weaker each time. 1/wound level means that a shifter would die from 8 light wounds. 1 lost for a serious and 2 from a deadly also sounds reasonable.

Regen is a nasty power all around. Vampires are even nastier than shifters which are not easy kills by themselves.

I'd just tell your players "no", or up the vamp's allergies to more traditional levels: maybe a silver allergy, sunlight burns and so on.

Besides, you'd have to crank up their opposition to provide a challenge almost to the point of resembling on of Sphynx's games.

-Siege

I'm all for altering them so sunlight does something more than give them a tan

Just wondering... What do you think nerve gas would do to a vamp? Seems like it would fuck them up somthin fearce.

Also i think that a rail gun would pretty much reduce a vamp to its component atoms so can they really regen after that?

An ANDREWS can do that. After all, it is a energy cannon, PPC anyone?

The rather pitiful Damage Code of the ANDREWS implies to me that it does not measure up well against 100kg of C-12. 9LN does 18D + 5 Over-Damage against people, the weakest ASM (the Javelot, which is really a SAM) does 24D + 8 Over-Damage, and the serious ASMs do between 80D + 11 Over-Damage and 120D + 14 Over-Damage. 100kg of C-12 does an average of 120D + 15 Over-Damage.

Actually, with regards to decapitation, I believe the power descriptions in the BBB states that regeneration fails when the Central Nervous System is disconnected from the body. The rolls indicate whether a regular nondirected deadly injury caused this.
I think decapitation would automatically qualify since it severs the connections of your brain(CNS) from the body, at least that what I've always heard it does.

Vampires don't need oxygen to live, but do need it to remain active. Decapitated heads remain active for significantly more than 3 seconds. Vampires can regenerate any type of cell. I could see a vampre get decapitated, wink, smile, go to mist form, and return as a complete vampire again.

Well oxygen requirements really aren't this issue. Unfortunately, I don't have the book with me at work, but I believe the power description states that regeneration requires a central nervous system with intact connection to the periphery to function. That prerequisite for regeneration would not be met in a decapitated body.
They use this prerequisite as an explanation for the 1 in 6 chance of regeneration failing on a deadly wound.(1 in 3 for massive damage) I always read that to mean you got lucky and the attack severed the spinal cord.

The problem is the have the flavor text and the mathematical rules, and they don't really agree. Yes, according to the SR universe, if any of the nervous system is damaged, that part of the body can't regenerate (this is from the novels, not just the companion, since the companion says damage to the CNS MAY cause death, and totally ignores non-deadly permanent damage). In theory, that'd include if you chop off an arm, it doesn't just reappear (because there are bundles of nerves through the arm). If you broke the vamp's back, he should be paralyzed. You could argue that, if the two pieces of the nerve bundle are next to each other, they can reconnect, which might help explain the math... but otherwise it doesn't make a lot of sense. Why? Because if you're using an edged weapon and you do Serious or Deadly damage, it's almost garaunteed you cut part of the nervous system somewhere. If you're using a club, it's a lot harder to cut the nervous system. In theory, the best way to kill a vampire should be edged weapons and flame throwers (with a little heat, the water in the brain turns to steam, causing a very messy and very fatal explosion, and by the time you're at third degree burns, the nervous system has usually been severaly damaged or destroyed). The rules in no way reflect this.

So it comes down to a 'in my game' question. In your game, does vaporizing a vampire result in his having to roll better than a 2 on 1d6? Or does it mean he's pretty much just a puff of vapor and his central nervous system is destroyed? (Or do you only go by the companion and not the novels and say that damage to the CNS doesn't garauntee permanent damage, in which case, do you still force him to roll if he suffers deadly damage from getting his legs chopped off or getting clubbed to death?)

You know, there are a lot of nerves in your arm, and these nerves are compositionally identical (well, close enough) to the nerves in your spinal cord. Theres also a good amount of bone there, just like the spine. Cartilage, too. I doubt anyone here would have a problem with a severed arm regenerating, which includes just about everything in the spine (except some fluids, but the body *can* produce that stuff on its own... so why is there a problem with saying that the spine can regenerate, which is exactly the same thing?

The rule, as quoted from critters, says that damage to the CNS is the only damage that *can* permanently kill the regenerating creature, not that it absolutely necessarily does. The 1d6 roll determines whether the creature dies, taking into consideration whether the CNS was damaged AND whether the creature fails to regenerate this damage.

If you want to look for a logic behind the CNS vs regeneration thing, you might decide that the CNS controls regeneration -- mostly from the lower brain and the upper spinal cord. Thus to prevent the vamp from regenerating, you'd have to destroy the section of the CNS that controls the regeneration process. However, because it is placed over a large area, has a lot of redundancy and usually does regenerate, this is not easy. And that's where the dice roll comes in.

Explaining the regeneration after decapitation is rather difficult, no matter how you justify the existance of regeneration. Does the body just produce a new head in 3 seconds flat, with an identical brain? Or does the head produce a new body, also in 3 seconds flat? The first sounds weird because the brain stores so much information that would not be present in the rest of the body, and the second just sounds really weird.

What happens to the information stored in the brain when the vampire turns to mist?

Yeah, okay, point taken.

So pop a new head it is.

[edit: In response to Jason's post on the previous page]

*sigh* yes, I said that the companion says CNS damage is the only thing that can kill a shapeshifter, and that that doesn't necessarily result in instant (permanent) damage. But I also said the novels paint a different picture. Either way, you run into problems.

Secondly, cutting off the arm is technically the peripheral nervous system, NOT the CNS, however if I recall correctly the novels would indicate that's just as bad; damage to nerve tissue is damage to nerve tissue. Either way, they both agree that damaging the spinal cord can lead to death. They do NOT agree on whether or not this damage can arbitrarily be healed.

The roll 1d6 does a piss poor job of saying whether or not the CNS is damaged in random combat. Some weapons are simply more likely to cause that sort of damage than others. A shapeshifter wearing a helmet is infinitely less likely to get hit in the CNS than one just wearing a jacket. Getting your legs cut off should, in theory, never cause death, nor would being launched into space (and suffocating). However they are just as likely to cause death, according to the rules, as getting ones head chopped off.

I consider the plot events of novels to be canon. The details as written in novels are too subject to creative license for me to take as canon interpretation.

You know, its theoretically possible for a vampire to suffer damage to the CNS while in mist form. From a bullet. If the vampire is somewhat low on essence (lets say essence 6) and gets hit with an assault canon round, it can kill him even in mist form. Does that make sense? No, not really. But the rules allow it.

I generally try to create explanations for things that fit the rules as best I can, and make allowances for strange circumstances. If someone made a called shot to a vampire's foot, hit, and got a deadly wound, I wouldnt bother roll the 1d6. If someone made a called shot to the vampire's neck with a dikoted katana, I would probably roll 2d6, since the attack makes neural damage more likely. But in the end we are dealing with a creature capable of doing ridiculously impossible things, like turning into mist and regrowing a severed arm in a matter of seconds. Notions of how things work in reality dont apply particularly well.

As for regenerating a decapitated head, it doesnt have to be quite so comical as the head regeneration in MiB. Perhaps the severed head converts to mist and drifts back to the body where it resolidifies. Whatever. Its magic, afterall.

The 'best' way to describe regeneration that I've found is to simply describe the wounds closing as they appear. I essence, if you successfully decapitate a vampire and he succeeds in his regeneration test, you never actually decapitate him - the wound closes before the head has time to fall off.

This isn't completely in line with the mathematics of it, because by the rules the vampire only 'heals' damage every 3 seconds. It should be a constant process, but following the rules it isn't.

To maintain any illusion of 'reality' apart from the game mechanics, the best way to descrie regeneration is that the wounds close rapidly. Since there is no effective 'limit' on how much damage can be regenerated in 3 seconds, there are two choices to maintain this illusion - either assume that you need to inflict a Deadly wound in one Combat Phase in order to make the vampire roll (easy to keep track of, makes them a little harder to kill though) or you describe all wounds as closing momentarily and simply roll if the vampire ever takes 10 boxes (or 10+overflow if you wish) in one combat turn (rationalize this by stating that the regenerative ability is 'overloaded' by handling so much damage in such a short time. This second variety is a little more work to keep track of, but lets you kill a vampire just as 'easy' as now.

By strictly following the rules in describing the effects of regeneration, you reach silly conclusions like a beheaded vampire regenerating a complete body in a few nanoseconds(say that the Deadly damage happened at the last Phase of a turn) but can't heal a Light wound in 3 seconds (if it happened first thing in the round)...

the other option is to make any damage stick around for a full comat turn (that is, until the same initiative pass in the next turn), but this makes vampires much easier to take down.

Actually, as BitBasher pointed-out a couple of pages back, it does not say that vamps can't regenerate damage to the nervous system. It mere ly says that any damage which is not to the nervous system can't kill them. IE: You could completely remove their nervous system from their body, but if you did it carefully & instantly they could not die.

No damage to nervous system -> no chance of death
but
Damage to nervous system -/> death

IE
Vaporization of vampire's body & central nervous system -/> death.

At-least not by how regeneration works in the critters book.

I'm assuming that comment is pointed at me... Yes, I know, that's why I'm quoting the novels where it's a different case, and IMO, more sensical. Otherwise you have creatures which sustain absolutely obscene amounts of damage and just shrug it off (unless you say every 10 points over deadly they roll again or something). Any non-unique physical creature which can happily sustain a nuclear explosion at point blank won't exist in my world : P

snowRaven, you could plan it out like they do movement (or at least used to). You divide up 10 (the maximum number of boxes you can heal) by the number of initiative combat phases (hope I"m using the right term) and each combat phase the vamp heals that number of boxes. So if you're fighting a street sam with an init of 46 (5 combat phases), each time you subtract ten from everyone's initiative, the vampire heals two boxes of damage. This would give you the analog healing over time effect.

Well that's what I get for not checking the book before I post.

I've always used the standard rules for normal attacks against regenerating critters, while I've taken into account anatomy for called shots and the flavor text about CNS damage. So I've always ruled decapitation as a good means of taken down vamps, you got to give the PCs something other than a 1 in 6 chance when fighting those vampire bastards, much less dzoo-noo-qaa.

Yes, what I'm talking about is the by the power's description in the book. I doubt anyone here would happily say they'd use the book's reading in all cases (including your rather extreme nuclear explosion example) but, by the book, vamps are nigh invincible 83.3%/66.6% of the time. Consider, however, the fact that a vamp will probably be dead after the 4th normal deadly wound or the 2nd traumatic deadly wound.

Nezumi, your proposed mechanics are almost the rules I use for vampire regeneration.

My house rules are: Regenerating creatures regenerate their 10+their body (to account for overdamage) boxes of damage each combat turn, divided by the number of passes in the combat turn.

So if a Vamp has a natureal body of 6, and an essence of 12, (18 body) he regenerates 28 boxes of damage a turn. If there are three passes he regenerates 9 boxes ant the end of the first and second passes, and 10 on the third. This also makes regenerators heal slower the less their essence is, which I like. This also keeps then fearsome and downright a thing of nightmares to kill, which I am also all for. And it's more organic and less instant.



[edit]

Yeah, guess it all comes down to what you feel best fits you're game. I think rolling a Deadly wound on a called shot to decapitate someone is difficult enough. Especially since if you fail, the you're starting from scratch next turn.

But strictly by the book it looks like you should always roll no matter how the person inflicts the damage. I'm sure everyone will figure out the way they want to do it for their campaign. It's cool to see how other GM's address these issues, I'm always willing to plagarize a good idea

S'why you don't piss off vampires, dzoo-no-qua and behemoths.

Characters need to know when to cut and run, especially when they're outclassed.

S'also why you don't pick fights with Dragons, Immortal Elves and Ares Macrotechnology.

It's also another reason why my characters carry Savalette Guardians with EX ammo on any occasion that could be even loosely construed as business.

-Siege

Making a nuyen and staying alive long enough to see the next sunrise?

-Siege

A PC shifter is easier to kill, yes. But an NPC shifter is almost as difficult as an NPC vamp, so what is the problem here? Your PCs never exercised/war-gamed against a toxic mutant drake with a free toxic spirit ally before? Those are considerably tougher than just a vamp.