So...your PCs stomped the thing into the ground and while it was incapacitated, the samurai took it's head?

I'm pretty sure called shots to decapitate aren't allowed by canon. (sorry, I'm being difficult)

-Siege

Yes, they are. Called shots to specific body parts, p85 Cannon Companion. And only armour present at the part is counted.

But...but...there's no rule for how to decapitate! You're not allowed to do that!

You...thought outside the box? That's just not allowed!



-Siege

Given that the armor in question is a special magical ability, I'd say it's present everywheree on the target.

~J

I think Tot was just adding detail on the rule in CC which mentions the whole "bypass armor" thing.

I agree, it would be hard to bypass armor that constitutes the critter's pelt.

-Siege

I think people might be confused: Vamps only have Immunity: Normal weapons when they are in mist form.

As the rules for melee called shots allow you to hit a specific location (the examplke given being the throat) you could probably call a shot to the spinal column or something.

Note that the 1d6 check is to check for damage that can kill the regenerating creature (IE Brain or Spinal damage, P14, Critters). If a wound unquestioningly would damage the brain or spinal column then they wouldn't get the 1d6 roll. A called shot with a .50 BMG round should do the trick.

You could argue that the called shot rules don't specifically allow you to target someone's head, but they do allow you to target a vulnerable location and it could be argued that a vamp's central nervous system is a vulnerable bit worthy of calling a shot to.

I'd personally still give them the roll, though with the 33% chance of failure.

~J

Okay, I have a question which is only slightly off-topic:

Does anyone else find it odd (read: bloody ridiculous) that Vampiric Pawns (Critters, p. 46) have the power Immunity (Normal Weapons) but Vampires and Nosferatu do not?

I'm meaner. If the damage is particularly traumatic (.50 BMG, RPG, fire-coated-explosive-round-of-DOOM, etc) I might kick up the odds to 3/6 or maybe even 4/6, but I don't see the accuracy of such an attack being enough to hit 5/6 on anything that wouldn't be automatic anyway (FAE, enough explosive to disassociate the entire body).

~J

What kind of damage did you require the samurai to inflict before you'd rule the head was properly decapitated?

-Siege

High body indicates strong (supernaturally strong in the case of vamps) muscle and bone tissue thus a serious wound after soak (if you include any stage-up from the called shot) probably wouldn't indicate a kill. You could possibly temporarily (or partially) paralyse the vamp by having the bone crimp the spinal cord awkwardly (a +3 to actions using the standard rules, you could be more harsh if you wanted) but regeneration could set that right.

I'd say that a deadly wound would need to be dealt to actually cause permenant damage to the spinal cord. To cut the head clean off I'd say you needed deadly with overdamage equal to the overflow of the creature (or some reasonable fraction thereof).

Sorry Nova -- you've missed (been spared?) some of the earlier arguments that ran almost exactly along those lines.

"If it's not expressly denoted in canon rules, you can't do it" sort of logic.

I'm all in favor of personal intrepetation and logical extensions of the rules, but it's not a play style that agrees with everyone.

-Siege

I was talking about in a single attack with a called shot to the neck. This would obviously be hard to do to a vamp thanks to their insanely high body scores but I was talking about a more general rules set. IE: how hard is it to cut-off a body 3-4 person's head?

Also: For overdamage to the neck, what do people think of halfing the character's body for purposes of deciding Deadlier Over-Damage?

Gotcha Siege. I don't agree with that at all, but different strokes for different folks...

So that means there's no baseball, cooking, real estate agents, clowns, comedians, accountants or anything else that requires skills that are not in the rules? Harsh.

/dodge debate

Nova

So, Deadly Over damage to the neck negates the need for a d6 roll?

-Siege

No, but called shot to the neck or any other part of the vampire that is vulnerable make Deadlier-over even more deadly. Actually, I think it is reasonable to say that only the head and spinal column of the vampire is vulnerable. Hence the only place that you can call shot to is those parts.

This enables you to push over his Body Rating in Physical Body Overflow before he can regenerate. Hence he dies before his regeneration kicks in.

Say for instance, a called Walther 2000 shot, 14D. Deadlier over means the vampire has to have 9 Body to avoid Deadly. Hence, we have 1 Deadly + 1/2 success of overflow. Against a Body 9 vampire, you need 18 successes on that shot to kill him outright.

Or to have your pals deal enough to overflow his Body. But that is easier since you have already pushed it into D zone and his Body resistance rolls have a 3 modifier and he's prone/unconscious/falt-footed/coup de grace-able.

True, but unless those rules specifically overrides (I don't have them, no Critters) the main rule book's Exceeding the Condition Monitor rules, it still dies.

So unless the wording in the Critters book is such that it overrides the main rules, you can kill it by literally blowing it up with a ton of C-12.

Then by the wording that you quoted, it is obvious to me that a called shot to the head(brain) of the spinal column negates the D6 roll. Or simply, that the roll of that D6 is always one with respect to a called shot damage. Unless there are further qualifiers that are not quoted.

It is obvious that the determination of the shot is necessary only if the shot is a generic(normal) one.

No, actually that would be entirely a GM call because by canon called shots do not cause specific effects. Remember Shadowrun is abstract. Just because you called a shot to a vital location doesnt mean you did enough damage to it to stop it from regenerating. Remember, it never says that a regenerating creature cannot regenerate damage to its spine or brain (I just reread it to verify this), it only says that that is the only type of damage capable of killing it. You can do a called shot straight through its skull and only have a 1 in 6 chance at best of killing it. 2 in 6 if you used a weapon that cause "massive tissue damage (fire, explosion, and so on)".

Furthermore, there's only a chance of regeneration not working of the wound was deadly or the wounds as a whole added up to deadly. Thats the only circumstance in which a roll is even necessary to see if permanent damage is done. Call a shot to its head and only do serious by not staging it up enough and it automatically regenerates.

Besides, all of this is academic unless the character has a knowledge skill in parabiology or a similar applicable skill, because of he doesn't he has absolutely no idea where to shoot a vampire.

Actually, the CC allows calling melee shots for bypassing armor.

It doesn't actually list the special effects, if any, from the called shot. Nor does it give guidelines for achieving the special effect.

Hence my question regarding, "what do you require to call it decapitation?"

-Siege

I'd be willing to use the exceptional damage rule (1 or 2 on 1d6 does not regenerate) in the case of a successful called shot, but would not rule that the called shot negated the regeneration roll altogether.

So for the lack of a better example, a vampire who is hit to deadly in the 1st initiative pass of the 1st combat turn regens on the second initiative pass of the same turn? (It is a question of how damned fast the damned thing can regen - is it per combat round or per initiative pass).

IIRC, it regenerates at the end of the turn (or beginning of the next one).

A good way to remember it is when you roll initiative you erase all his damage unless he died. Getting him to dead is the real good trick since he's sentient and will likely be wearing armor and such exactly like youHe just goes a whoel lot faster more than likely and has a big number added to all his physical attributes.

Also note then in shadowrun vampites have no visible distinguishing charactersitics. There is no mention of any whatsoever. They do not have fangs or enlarged canines, their eyes do not glow, and they only have a mild allergy to sunlight, meaning they can walk in daylight with only an annoying discomfort. (They suffer +1 to all TN's and would get one box of damage per minute of direct exposure, but regenerate this damage FAR daster then it is dealt. They have no problem regenerating allergy based damage at all.)

SR's vampires are their own, they are not stereotypical like other vampires, although it's likely the PC's will think they are without an appropriate knowledge skill.

Therefore, every Deadly box prompts a D6 roll. Since every wound after Deadly is Deadly, you can theorectically kill him with a lot Zippos, after you blow him away to the D zone with a Barret.

1 attack - Deadly - roll D6
1 attack - Light - Is the wound in Deadly? If yes, roll. If not, not roll.

So every set of wounds in the Overflow causes a roll since they are all deadly. Actually depends on how you define wounds after you have caused a Deadly wound.

If that's the way you want to do it in your games, that's cool. BitBasher did a good job of describing how it works in canon, however.

Roll 1d6 when the regenerating creature reaches deadly damage (accumulated during one round).

Roll 1d6 again if and when the creature receives another Deadly wound (IE> 10 boxes of damage).

Overflow has sweet f.a. to do with it.

That's kind of lame, that. If the vampire is already at deadly and sustains another deadly wound, it gets to roll?

Once the vampire is down make sure your attacks stay at serious or below, folks! Otherwise you're playing right into its hands

I was thinking more along the lines of a vampire who fails his roll when he hits deadly. Does he not get another roll if he takes another deadly wound? If so then it really pays not to damage a dying vampire too much, or you'll cause it to heal.

Wait, you guys are saying that they don't get overflow like everyone else? I've always used the rules for shifter PCs, so I've never bothered to read the regen rules in Critters. It's in my car so I can't even check now, although if it's true it's super-lame and something I'll certainly have to ignore.

Page 14, Critters:

Note that even if a vampire successfully regenerates, the damage disappears at the beginning of the next combat turn. So a vampire who takes Deadly damage will be spending the rest of that round healing (but unconscious), and vulnerable to attacks from others.

Weapon foci are very effective - a Force: 6 weapon focus requires a vampire to roll against a TN of 12 after a Deadly wound - even with an Essense of 12, that's a high Target Number, and the vampire still needs to make a regeneration test after that.

When an awakened vampire takes Deadly damage, he or she must check for Magic loss, even if the regeneration is successful.

Yeah, but how often do you see a Force 6 weapon focus?

-Siege