A 0.2 essence cost shifts this quality from the "Useless" bin to the "Overpowered" bin? How do you figure? It is a 10BP quality which gives you the equivalent of a 20 BP quality and a bit extra (The 20% cost discount) in exchange for 0.2 essence (Or only 0.1 essence if you have more cyberware than bioware).

I'm confused as to why people are calling this useless. This seems like it would be a great quality for anyone who wanted a higher stat, and lets face it, everyone wants that. The only real difference in usefulness between it costing essence and not costing essence is for awakened, as it makes an exceptional quality for them as it is one of the few ways in which they can potentially raise their stats without sacrificing magic (If it doesn't cost essence). If it does cost essence then for them it is actually a fairly decent tossup between this and exceptional attribute because EA doesn't require a loss of a point of magic, but it costs 10 extra BP, and more notably, 10 extra BP from their 35 quality cap which they are already hard up on for the points put into awakening in the first place.

And that is what we call balance.

Which is my point. Costing essence it is generally good for people that don't care about essence, and a tossup for people who don't. If it doesn't cost essence it is really good for both. Essentially if it costs essence then exceptional attribute still has a purpose, and if it doesn't cost essence then exceptional attribute doesn't really have a purpose beyond buying it in the future with karma (Or very very rarely if someone really wanted it in chargen)

That's kinda how evolution works ya. If it caused essence loss because each subsequent generation was not renamed the human species would go extinct in a small handful of generations due to essence loss, since each generation have about 6 mutations (most silent) the previous generation did not, this would very quickly add up to the 6 essence each human has, and our species goes bye-bye.

Artificially Induced Genesplicing is not natural selection via mutation.

Again, even if it's not natural mutation. The next generation will not suffer the thrauma from the gene mods. Then it become natural.

Again...

1. a woman is born w/ all her egg cells she'll use during her lifetime. Those aren't modified during genetherapy. Sexual cells have radically different DNA strands than normal cells and would not respond the same way to gene therapy.

2. EVEN WHEN THE DNA IS MODIFIED, the essence reductions still carry to the next generation. See Ghouls... even natural born ghouls still only have 5 essence. And that's about as close to a natural genetic therapy as you can get.

3. Another thing which isn't addressed is... if this is the case. Then you've set the grounds for a massive eugenics movement... especially one devoted to making superhumans through controlled evolution. The only thing is you've taken animal husbandry and turned it on it's head.

4. No good reasons have been given GAMEWISE... why a character should get something for nothing. If for 10BP I can get +1 reaction on my dwarf WITHOUT AN ESSENCE HIT and further ongoing benefits... as opposed to 20BP for the quality. Then there's a clear problem w/ game balance mechanics.

Then again, is there any particular reason why, if the gene therapy is elective (at least close enough for government work, so to speak), would it be necissarily inconcieveable (pardon the pun) that she would have her eggs altered too?



No it's not and we both know it. Ghouls, and all Infected for that matter, have variable Essense that rises and dips like a yo-yo due to their metabolism and feeding schedule. They are about as relevant to this matter as corporeal Free Spirits, since no known non-infected non spirit anything has the power Essesence Drain (not even as a spell, last time I checked, though with the Dragons and Immortal Elves you can never be too sure ).



Actually, there could be multiple such movements. This is Shadowrun after all. Humanis/Human Nation and the New Dawn spring instantly to mind. Haplotheist Vedic faction Hindu fundamentalists and/or Nazi groups are another...



Well, at my table, the benefits of Genecrafted aren't included in the Genetic Heritage quality (since usually only one parent is modified and they weren't planned mattings between mom and dad in that sense) and must be bought seperately. (Genetic Heritage is still a 10 build point edge though). Of course, those are just House Rules, but its something Catalyst should have changed in an errata. There are so many stupid prejudices ingame that adding adding in metagame bigotries like Gameplay and Story Segregation and Violation of Common Sense can feel really tiresome.

Besides, at my table, people really wanting to max out on Bioware tend to take Type O System instead.

Ghouls are at 5 essence when born that way ? (Need quote and book rules)
Genetic Heritage does not specify what is free so the ambiguity is there. I won't allow a character to pic metagenic with this quality, I would only allow them to pick certain type of modification, that would let the user to have them. I'm looking at what the dev told me and it's quite it. Read it like you want it's your game once you start playing it. So if everyone around the table agree with it how the GM read the rule then be it. Listen to your players they know if it's unbalancing or not. But if you play with munchkin, impose your view.

Besides, if the Genetic Heritage quality costs Essence due to that in game meta-answer, than undergoing SURGE and becoming a changeling should have simmilar Essence costs to Bioware (true, it may be at Delta Grade costs, but still, if the issue is the Naming contraversey, that's about the only way I can see this fairly being sauce for the goose and gander.

Kalwan...

Okay, NOT ALL INFECTED HAVE VARIABLE ESSENCE. Vampires are generally the poster child for this one. Only certain infected have variable essence though and they all feed through the drain power. Once a ghoul is infected, it loses a variable portion of essence as part of the virus running it's course and altering it's DNA. However, IF it has children... natural born ghouls start w/ essence 5. Their essence does not fluctuate up and down as a function of feeding.


Congrats, by now intentionally 'altering' the egg. You have now entered the realm of the genecrafted!!! (which is when the alterations are done before/during/after fertilization, IE: you've intentionally subjected your baby to bioware/genecrafting before it's born). So you've shot a hole in your own argument, that the change is 'natural' to the child. (if it's not for genecrafted, it's not for heritage either).


As far as the last... my point is. You see people who haven't developed coherent arguments, and never learned basic argumentative skills. I can see potential arguments that the ability is a little underpowered and the 20% cost reduction should also include a 20% essence reduction. However, I've seen no one build one single solid argument for free on game balance grounds. All arguments presented are essentially on fluff grounds in a fantasy setting. No nod or thought is given to gameplay effects (especially after multiple generations of free inherited modifications).

Well I see Ghouls (with their Natural Essence at 5 at Birth) being a result of a Disease... Some diseases have a deletrious effect on the body in the long term and HMHVV is obviously one of them... so I would not equate it to a Metagenetic improvement (or a mutation over a thousand years for that matter)...

As for the second argument... once that genecrafted child grows up and has children of there own, the resulting child might inherit the genecraft (dependent upon whether it is recessive or dominant), but I would not see that child losing essence over that... as someone pointed out earlier, beneficial mutations do not tend to eradicate the race that inherits them, and if inherited beneficial genes cost essence, eventually the human race would extinguish)... What I see as more probable is that eventually you would have a new "race" of metahumanity that would evolve alongside the rest of metahumanity...

But that is just me... Not really that invested in the debate, but it is interesting indeed...

Keep the Faith

A new Race of Humanity?
Like the Metahumans? O.o

Except that every quality that grants some reduction in the essence cost of cyber/bio/etc. specifies that it reduces the ESSENCE COST by stating the words "essence cost" explicitly.

I see it as similar to what you see in a High Science game (Such as Space Master)... with 15 different versions of humanity (Transhumans) that have been adapted to certain environments... I would see it similarly in Shadowrun, if you expanded the timelinew a little bit, as certainly, at the current time there would not be such an issue as you would still be in the first generation of such types of modifications... and some of these may not actually translate to the next generation due to recessive qualities that may or may not be present (as a Megacorp designing such treatments, I would definitely make the DNA strand generally recessive, so that it would (hopefully) not express true in the next generation)

And yes, Metahumanity (Elves, Orks, Trolls, etc) are a good example of this, thoguh the traits for metahumanity are generally Dominant as they mostly express true (though not always in some rare cases)...

Keep the Faith

Specific trumps general, and all that... Some people see the Quality as a specific trump of the normal rules...

Keep the Faith

What "normal" rules? There are no rules here. Every other quality is a specific that trumps nothing.

After the punctuation of the sentence. where the FREE is not included and thus making it FREE FREE and not just free of

I'm pretty sure "free" is a cost reduction and still bound by the rule.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/free


They got high tolerence but it just reduce the cost in so basically it tells you : Hey you accept more easily the mods I'll charge you less ... but your body suffer the sameway ? So it should also include an Essence cost ... The rule is not good anyway. it should be : Cost reduction of 20% for both and essense !

...Do you even know how a genetic treatment works? If the body more readily accepts the altered gene then you need less of it to enact the desired change. Producing the retroviral material is very very expensive, so needing 20% less of it means quite a bit.

It also clearly states that the 20% reduction is to nuyen costs only, so stop trying to argue that it's also 20% essence too. So while I'd agree that a 20% essence reduction would match the fluff more closely, that's not what the crunch says.

ok... still the FREE part should not cost essence.

Meh, I can see both sides of the argument, but I wouldn't rule that it covers essence as well as money, personally. Sets a bad precedent. I wouldn't want to have a 'ware dealer offer to throw in cybereyes for free and have players start trying to argue that means zero essence cost (if you think no player would try it, you're either very naive or very lucky with your players).

Of course why exactly having a genetic modification inherited from your parents would make it any easier to change your DNA (Especially if that change has become 100% natural and doesn't cost you essence) is anyone's guess.

Now doing the in vetro one at reduced cost makes alot of sense because... well, there isn't as much of you that has to be modified, in fact, this would be amazingly beyond easy and I'm surprised that the cost reduction is only 20%

DNA is DNA, regardless of whether it is In-Vitro, In Utero or post birth...

Keep the Faith

Except that a zygote has fewer cells that need to have their DNA altered, making a smaller retrovirus culture, making it cheaper to produce, resulting in.....

COST REDUCTION!

Now, if "DNA is DNA" and that whole essence thing, then geneware shouldn't cost any essence at all, should it?

You are right... it shouldn't, but lets not get into that can of worms, Hmmmmmmm...
Oh, and are you going to tell me that a gene culture for an infant is smaller than a gene culture for a 900 lb. Troll... Really?
DNA is replicative, so a tiny culture is all you would ever truly need... though it might take more time to affect the Troll vs. the Infant, I will give you that.

Keep the Faith

Yep, that was my point. If you're doing it to the egg, then you only have to affect a single cell, as opposed to a lengthy retro-viral type procedure which adjusts the DNA of every cell in your body. I would imagine the cost difference in this should be something like an 80-99% reduction, instead of a tiny 20% reduction, but we are looking at game balance here.



Exactly. if "DNA is DNA" which from a DNA standpoint it more or less is, then why would getting a change to your DNA affect essence? The fact is that it is simply a game balance mechanism (Like essence in the first place) and so people can go on and on about naming and 'natural genes' and all this other junk, but the point is that this needs to be looked at from a game balance issue, because that is what essence is.

So, simply ask yourself if it makes sense for a 10 BP quality to give you a nuyen and essence free geneware of your choice, and a 20% nuyen discount on all future geneware. Personally this seems like a bit much, especially since you can pick stuff that costs 9 BP worth of nuyen and mimics a more expensive quality. Even costing essence it still seems like a handy quality in my opinion. So yeah, from a game balance perspective (Which is really the most important perspective in a game) it seems as though it should cost essence.

Yes I am going to argue that because no, DNA is not replicative. Cells are replicative and contain a minimum of 3 additional proteins necessary to replicate DNA strands. You can't just inject 1 strand of DNA into one cell in your body and expect it to spread, it doesn't work like that (even assuming that every cell in your body replicates which is not the case).

And not to mention that the patient would need to be on anti-viral drugs cocktail during the whole procedure. Which means they'd need to be in a bio-isolation unit.

There's actually a story I've read which deals with that rather nicely. The DNA retrovirus thing is down a ways, but is dealt with in an amazingly realistic manner (were such technology in existence).

(Yes, the author doesn't want the story linked from other places, but given that the link is freaking buried inside his giant "about me" page I figured I might as well)

DNA is DNA and should cost body index not essence !

Except that... there is no Body Index in 4th Edition...

@ Draco18s... Good Points...

Thanks

Keep the Faith

Which is dumb! In my eyes.

Only from those who prefer the mechanics of previous edition... I am not one of those individuals... using Body Index and Essence allowed for some exceptionally powerful (over the top) individuals way beyond crazy... a lot of individuals prefer that, but not me... I think that the mechanics used in 4th are much better for playabbility as there is a functional limit that makes you (the player) make some tough choices... rather than getting your cake and eating it too, as in previous editions...

I never really dug body index. I prefer the current method.

Bioindex was Essence+3 in SR3. So no matter what, you never had more then 9 points available.
And as soon as your Essence went, so did your bioindex.
Under SR2, Bioindex was dependent on Body. So yes, a Troll could get it up to 18.

Yes in both cases... though, the combination of Essence AND BioIndex was a crazy combination as you could Always have at least 3 points of BioIndex even if you had an Essence of .0001...

If you really think about it though, you get the same BASIC effect with the reducing of the cost in Essence of the lesser augmentation...

I mean Really, think about it... 4.5 Essence lost to Augmentation is still a total of 3 points of Cyberware and 3 points of Bioware (6 points total), and yet it only costs you that 4.5 cost in Essence... I am sure that you can get more... if my initial math is right, you get 4 points of one, and 3.9999999 for the other for an essence cost of 5.9999999... and that does not bring grades/biocompatability/adapsin/etc. into the equation for a truly obscene amount of 'ware

Now that I think about it, different routes, but the same general effect, assuming that you wish to go through the math to keep it straight...

Keep the Faith

Nope, it was actual essence.
So maximum of 9 points for bioindex.
Get Smartlink, Eyes, Plastic Bones for 1.5 Points of Essence and your Bioindex falls from 9 to 7,5

Yep, Ninja Edited while you were posting...

Keep the Faith

Well, in 3rd, there was no adapsin and biocompatibility either . . but yes, you nincompoop ninjaed me ^^

Apologies... My Editing Skills are lacking today, and just as I Posted it, I noticed a few GLARING issues that I wanted to fix...

I don't get the Ninja Edit often, but on occassion...

Keep the Faith

Ah, my memories were mixed up. SR2 bioindex was wonky, with orcs and Trolls being insane. SR3 didn't really matter, as it is the same essentially.

Although sometimes the new 1/2 essence cost of the lower value bio or cyber can get crazy.

Anyway, I don't think that Genetic Heritage should cost essence. So for that reason I ditch this quality in limbo. They should have made it dead to the point by writting it right.

It isn't really that vague. Free 99.999% of the time means 'doesn't cost money' not 'no strings attached'. In this case the 'string attached' is that it still costs essence.

I mean, if you could site my any precedent for 'ware not costing essence I might be possibly inclined to not dismiss the 'free means no essence cost' idea out of hand.



While not specific, it does seem to indicate here that inheriting a geneware is no different than having it done in vitro or later in life.

Thus making the Heritage dumb and stupidly not natural. This part of the augmentation book has been banned from my table. You want free mods become surged.

Or you could just use the 'does cost essence' reading and suddenly it isn't dumb.

The fact is you're anyone arguing about the fluff is making an argument about something they don't know much about (Genetics, evolution, gene therapy, etc) under a fictitious system that has no basis in reality (essence) and trying to make claims about what should or shouldn't happen based on the 'logic' thereof.

Logic, there is no logic in what I said because I'm thinking about what should be ... And it's not.

You think it should be essence free because it is 'natural' because you're logic tells you so.

Anyway I won't be using that quality if it start argument around my table like it's beginning to do.

We have many retro-viral insertions in our genome. Each of these is an exogenic addition, done in a fashion which would be more messy and dangerous then the processes employed in a lab. If you wish to cost essence for any genetic alterations caused using chemicals, then no one born past the industrial age would have 6 essence as virtually everyone carries some from of mutation resulting from ozone deficiency, water or atmospheric pollutants, or leftovers from nuclear tests. Given background count (astral taint) is proportional to the emotional significance of the event, it seems unlikely a 'taint' of intention could stick with a given genetic alteration over successive generations, since places like Hiroshima and the Nazi death camps are cooling down, and thousands of people died and suffered there. I understand my opinion on this matter contradicts RAW, but RAW has no justification for this which would not have resulted in the extinction of our species, and as such is not something I can abide by.

Ghouls also can not survive off of anything which wasn't metahuman at some point. This shows something to be intrinsically wrong with their spirits, as even the meat of other primates would not suffice which would contain all the same chemicals our body tissue would. Since they need some 'supplemental' energy from metahuman flesh their reduced essence score makes a great deal of sense. Having my DNA rewritten so I have a double myostatin deletion ( muscle augmentation 4 ), which is a naturally occurring human mutation does not become an obligate cannibal. The signature of this gene work would be minimal on my spirit needing at least 4 hits to detect with assencing, and since it is also a mutation which occurs naturally in the population, it should pass perfectly fine to my children without them suffering for it, as exactly the same stretch of DNA already occurs in unmodified humans.