Changeling have been named ?

I don't know what's up with SURGElings having 6 essence under my explanation either. I can only offer a "magic did it, therefore it doesn't mess with magic."

But it's still genetic factors. Then you need a name giver to give a name. Human are name givers ? Then the next generation is name gived. Genetic Heritage grant a mod without essence.

As far as explaining it fluff-wise, I say that genetic treatments, while they may mesh well with the recipient, and can even be passed along to offspring, are still not completely "natural" - just like bioware. Things like SURGE, on the other hand, are natural metagenetic expressions resulting from the rising mana level, just like orks or trolls.

Still. If you gain the modification through genetic heritage, it should not remove from your essence since your original ADN is the modified one. It's part of you and all your cells have the same code and even more if you get cloned it is still present. Your code is built to fit with it. Your spirit is formed with this code from the first synapse to the last hair.

It's not modified it's its own. It should not be removing you a snip of essence.

But you know what the Devs will tell: If all of you around the table believe it should not cost essence then be it. And it is how it goes around my table.

You make an asumption that every cell in the body doesn't have the same genes through a regular gene treatment. Given the months of operation time, I figure it is quite reasonable to believe that every cell has in fact been modified, and even if it hasn't been initially, since cells replace themselves, you will eventually have all your cells having the genetic modification. Does this mean it shouldn't cost essence?

I've still yet to hear anyone respond to my question about why 'free' refers to essence but '20% reduction' doesn't since 'free' is just another way of saying '100% reduction'.

But in the Gene threatement the spirit is not modified. When you are born the spirit is attached to it.

You'd be surprised at how wrong some people might think that is.

Good one ... but I still think that someone born with a genetic heritage is not affected by essense lost ... And ADAPSIN is not included since it's bran new to 2070 !

How about ghouls... HMMWV is about as close to gene treatment as you can get! (virus which rewrites/activates portion of the subjects genome)

Natural born ghouls still only have essence 5.

I'm "in" with the right crowd. It's a shame Waywind hasn't updated in over a year and a half.

Okay, I'll bite...

Shouldn't it grant not only a 20% reduction in Cost but a 20% reduction in Essence (Much like Alpha Grade ware does?) since that is its obvious intent... Free at character creation and 20% reduction after creation...

There, I asked it...

Keep the Faith

Right, that's my point. People think that 'free' refers to essence cost as well as nuyen, but no one seems to think that '20% reduction' refers to essence, and I'm trying to figure out why the exact same terminology in the same paragraph has such exceedingly different readings by the same person.

Just trying to figure out why one reduction includes essence and the other doesn't for those people that think 'free' means essence.

P.S. All this discussion about 'what is a human' and 'what is a soul' isn't going to get anywhere. What you need to do is look at the rules

well, for the cost of the Quality, I could see someone using the argument to do so, but in the end, I really do not care, so it is a moot point (for me at least) I would guess...

As far as the rules, Well yeah, there it is...

Keep the Faith

Well, Since someone mentioned a dev ruling I am done with this argument, but on the issue of that last question:

"As a result, the nuyen costs of transgenic genetic
enhancements for the character are reduced by 20 percent."

That line specifically refers to nuyen, the previous mention of "free" doesn't. That might be where some of the original issues started.

Could Be...

Keep the Faith

Ah, I guess it is. Still, it sounds like too good a deal to me for 10BP. You get 9BP worth of a free genetic optimization AND it doesn't cost essence AND you get a 20% discount on future genetech purchases?

The first and last part alone make it a good quality, throwing in the middle part just seems like too much.

It is just a single Optimization though... does it REALLY make a difference?

Keep the Faith

Well, if this quality makes the optimization essence free, then it is the equivalent of the 20BP exceptional attribute quality only with the added bonus of giving a 20% discount on geneware and costing 10 BP less.

If you were optimizing the character, with no regards for teh concept, I would agree... but there are a lot of other options that make a good choice to select, depending upon character concept...

Keep the Faith...

True, there are plenty of qualities out there to take, but some are inherently more useful than others. It seems like a bad idea to make two qualities identical, then cut the price of one of them in half, and then give the reduced cost one an added benefit.

Take both AND be a mage!

Pure Awesome...

Not Really... I have yet to see anyone actually abuse gene-tweaking at our table... not saying it does not happen, because I am sure that it does...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Would it be conceivable to take Genetic heritage, pick a genetic infusion, and have it be permanent?

I don't think that would work, though I doubt there is anything specifically in the book you can point at and say 'that's why it doesn't work'.

since there's an excellent chance humans may already have a copy of that gene just performing a different function...
There are humans which exist today which have the equivalent of muscle toner 4 or higher naturally.... are they less human?

I don't think so - what exists IRL is peoples with attributes ranging from 1 to 7, not from one to 11. Also expressing genetic potential differently depending on lifestyle. Even with the same genes, a couch potato and a fitness maniac will en end up quite different.

If you're going on the genetic heritage thing, another sort of possible genetic heritage would be those unlucky souls living in areas like the SOX who get some frazzled genetics from their parents. Which means probably both attributes penalties and diminished essence.

In mt opinion the essence cost should carry on : you're still adding some bits of genome who shouldn't be there. Even if you're born with them, you inherit the troubles associated with the mod along with the benefits.

If you have 2 parents that are blind genetically ... are you sure to be born blind ? You have big chances but it's not imposible to see someone born seeing with 2 blind parents.

First : Adam told me on twitter :

So around my table the quality grant FREE of COST in both and essence 1 Transgenic modification exept Adapsin that is new to 2070 so you can't be born with it.

So why would anyone ever get the 'enhanced attribute' quality?

Because Genetic heritage can only be taken once. All the qualities that have levels are stated has so ... So if you take this one as a genetic heritage from your parents then you are lucky and pay less but all other would cost you 20BPs so lucky you you can have 2 boost instead of 1.

Unless you have the genetic heritage edge, and the escaped clone one as well....

Let me rephrase: Why would anyone ever take exceptional attribute instead of Genetic Heritage? It seems rather stupid to have two almost identical qualities except that one is obviously three times as good as the other.

Because they stack?

You're not getting it, obviously. If you're going to take ONE and ONLY ONE, why take Exceptional Attribute?

And why is Exceptional Attribute in SR4A when Genetic Heritage is strictly superior?

Augmentation is a side optional book,
though that is not the case with my group, i am sure there might be a group out there that only
uses the main book(SR4a/SR4).
Exceptional attribute has a place at their table?

Because a careful GM would not allow it for attribute augmentation and only for Trangenic treatment. (IE The list with the Adapsin but Adapsin excluded. )

Look up the gene called myostatin (edit) recessive. Its actually rather impressive how stupidly strong people with it can get. I'd say they hit 10 at least without too much trouble.

Because not everyone will be gene enhanced, but some people will be 'naturally' superior.

Yeah, but why would a player pick it is the question.

It's a moot question, though. The argument was comparing the Exceptional Attribute quality with Delarn's house rule for the Genetic Heritage quality, where it doesn't cost Essence. And apparently he resolves the issue by not letting people get the Genetic Optimization tweak with Genetic Heritage. So nothing to even compare any longer.

maybe one needs both

Surge isn't alteration of the subjects DNA, its a phenotypic expression that is caused by a sudden increase in mana level. I repeat the genes that cause the surge effects are naturally part of the creature.

Because you're playing a character who's parents didn't have access to genetic augmentation?

Like the herited Gene... they are natural to the new born.

At character creation there is no reason. You can theoretically pick up exceptional attribute in play though, you can't pick up genetic heritage in play. Not that I care either way, this quality is either fairly weak or too strong either way its a loser.

Just a quick clarification, it's not a house rule. He is just playing it as it reads

It's all natural so long as you artificially alter the parent?

To the child, yes!

Take salmon gene and put it in a strawberry. (OGM is that) The next generation will grow with the gene and they are no longer flagged has Salmon genes. They are a new brand of strawberries that can sustain cold better.

Alteration in a previous generation, but the next generation is not altered again it doesn't have the shock of the threatment and thus making it natural to it.