Ever worked in a biology lab? Synthesizing DNA is getting cheaper by the day, and in 62 years time, its going to be practically free. The viral proteins needed to make the retroviruses are already available for purchase today, and again in 62 years will likely be cheap enough to buy by the barrel if done right. The monetary cost of producing the actual reagents needed is going to be pathetic. The way your body would be introduced to it would be in a sterile liquid filled tube, ala bacta-tank and given chemotherapy to destroy your bone marrow, then you would have stem cells injected into your bone marrow cavities, or 'new' cloned bone marrow which was introduced to the virus at the stem cell stage, then you'd be given the virus. If your body 'readily' accepts this process, it should be less traumatic to your spirit, and SHOULD cost you less essence, the same way expertly done deltaware implants cost less essence. But that's just my take on it.

double post

So, why exactly do you suffer essence loss for a gene mod in the first place? By your reasoning of the damage caused on DNA by ozone (Really, ozone causes damage to DNA? Seems unlikely to me) and other factors, would someone lose a point of essence every few years or so just from the damage caused by the environment around them.

You're never really going to come to any sort of conclusion about the quality by arguing it with fluff like I keep saying because nothing can be confirmed and nothing can be based on proper logic. So, for just a minute ignore fluff and 'oh the consequences' and just think purely in terms of game balance which makes more sense. The answer should be fairly obvious.

Actually changing you at the 1 cell stage, would be very 'easy' and not involve any trauma to your body at all. Since you body hasn't formed yet your spirit shouldn't know what it will be getting is much different then what it should have gotten, and the essence cost should be dirt cheap.

From a game balance perspective I agree with you, but if something is going to, in realistic terms condemn our species to extinction for the sake of 'balance', its a really dumb idea, and should be ignored.

1) I meant damage to the ozone, but ozone is a highly reactive molecule would does can cause mutations if introduced to DNA.

2) This IS my point. If DNA changes cause essence loss, then NO ONE should have 6 essence. If DNA changes can cause essence loss across generations then EVERY LIVING THING on the planet would have essence lost its whole species to death by now.



I'm afraid I must differ with you on this point. If the rules have consequences that make for unintentionally deadly consequences for life as we know it, then something needs to change about the rules. It would be like playing a game where the rules said characters started picking up fissionable uranium from the environment, and keeping track of how much they've collected, but ignoring the fact that when you get enough of that stuff together in the same place, it gets really quite hot, and kinda deadly.

Because as we all know, all games ever made obey all the laws of physics and science completely with no deviations.

Personally I wouldn't be overly concerned with a game world where they just say 'Oh uranium doesn't do that here.'

I mean you are playing in a world in which what you replace your bones with affects how much essence you lose. You're already playing in a game that defies the laws of physics, so why are you so uptight about this one little thing? Is it totally unreasonable to assume that somehow essence, which knows the difference between titanium and plastic in your bones, somehow can pick out the difference between a natural mutation/infection and one implanted by science? That perhaps somehow the soul (which is what essence is) is somehow able to know the difference between what should be and what has been forced on the body?

I mean in a world with magic, flawed physics, and a virtually tangible soul, can you not make just a tiny suspension of disbelief or handwavium reason for this one tiny thing?

I mean if you just want to ignore the quality entirely that is cool, and if you really want to turn it into broken 'everyone must have awesomeness' then I guess that is your game, but it just seems silly to do either of those things based on 'oh, this is what happens in the real world' when you don't really have a real world to start with.

Already answered. SURGE costs no essence. Bioware does. The "soul" knows what is a natural, normal (magical) change, and what is imposed by science. You know tech and magic often don't get along? Even when there's not really any readily understandable reason it should be so? Just call this another instance of that.

Yeah, Okay, I will grant you that...

Keep the Faith

I think its already been answered by others but for me.

It is on the useless side because it has a very niche benefit. It is good when you've maxed out resources otherwise just spend 9bp on the genetics. It is too good if it is essence free because it wont cost magic making it the much better exceptional attribute.

Hypothetically lets say you took 15 BP mage, 10 points genetic heritage, 10 points changeling(using the 20 points to get metagenic attribute improvement whatever its called) and you were an elf. 10 Chr is kind of rocking for your drain stat especially when you don't take any essence hits.

So yeah 0 essence makes this too good due to magic, it is entirely a magic thing for me whether its for a phys add or a full mage it just becomes too good.

On a side note way too much of this crap stacks. Exceptional attribute, metagenic improvement, genetic improvement +3 to the max on lets say an elf with agility. 10/15 agility is kind of bad ass. With the right bioware I bet you could hit 15 at char gen which to me is totally lame.

This.

This is why it is not essence free.

with my dyslexia I am always boggled when people not only understand what I write they actually agree with it. Not that the 2nd part is necessarily related but that is like 2 for 2 unlikely events.

You almost had me (confused) there. Almost.

Most of my gaming group has at least 1 degree, with a Bsc being the most common, so ya, as often as possible we try to conform to the laws of physics and chemistry and biology, except for when they would act as a 'fun vacuum'. The primary way to break physics in most of our games is magic, but that is neither here nor there. When the rules say evolution is impossible, but the world continues to change around you, sometimes is rather drastic ways, then you go extinct.


Actually that's another example of something which I have a fairly significant problem with, titanium if properly coated would be undetectable by the body, with the only noticeable effect being a generalized increased mass of the skeletal system, and it wouldn't even weight that much more. This is one of those things done for balance sake which looks really stupid when its actual effects are taken into account. Given that the physical 'surgery' is done with nanites, and they just weave it through your preexisting bone tissue, likely through the layer of spongy bone there really shouldn't be any significant trauma involved to the body at all. The only reason I can conceive of for the massive essence loss, in the spirits of all living things on earth are allergic to titanium, at which point surgical pins to repair shattered bones would cost a fair chunk of essence too.



How could it do this is the question. The viruses used are the very similar with the ones built by science being less invasive, doing less damage, being more targeted. Several of the transgenic modifications are things which already exist in the real world human population. I mean its possible the soul would know its body has been changed and charge you essence for it, but then contact with any systemic retrovirus should have the same effect. Since we still exist as a species with many, many such viral insertions in every single cell in our bodies this means such additions can not cost any generation, other then the one they hit, essence, or there would be nothing left alive.



If stating the evolution is now physically impossible, and life in general and our species in specific could never have evolved, that the entire basis for the science advancements which allow for cybernetics, genetic engineering and modern medicine are going to be tossed out, I'd like an very good reason why, as opposed to 'handwavium'. Its not a tiny suspension of disbelief, it would be like removing gravity and having a 'tiny' suspension of disbelief that nothing would change.



I actually have to ignore pretty much the whole concept of essence actually. The writers tend to admit its little more then a balancing mechanism, and a very adhoc one at that.

Has a vehicle ever exploded in your game (Without the use of... you know, explosives)? Has a (regular)bullet ever caused an explosion before? Both are exceedingly common game type events that just don't happen IRL. Car explosions are exceedingly rare beyond reason, and a bullet isn't going to cause a can of gasoline or napalm or anything really to explode. Oh, and my favorite: Has a bullet ever caused someone to be knocked down? I hope not, because the only way that is physically possible is if it also knocked down the person firing the weapon (Unless they had a bracing system or something)


So, you, like I, have a bit of a problem with essence in the first place: So why are you so darn fixated on the effects of essence loss due to genetic manipulation?


I don't know how something that doesn't exist (essence) would know the difference between a natural retrovirus or another natural change to DNA and a synthetic one dreamed up in a lab. I also don't know how magic works, but that doesn't stop me from using magic. I also don't know how exactly simsense and DNI and bioware and 95% of the tech from SR works, but that doesn't stop me using it. Is it really so hard to believe that somehow it works and move on? Just like you believe that somehow magic works and move on?


That's entirely blowing it out of proportion. This doesn't deny evolution, it denies artificial genetic modification. As I said above. Assume that somehow the soul knows the difference between what man has done to the body with science, and what nature has done to the body. I honestly can't believe it is that hard of a stretch in a world in which magic exists.


So why are you sacking a quality on the basis of something that you ignore in the first place? You say "I ignore essence except in this one case because paying attention to it in this case is a hindrance to the very structure of what essence is designed for, which is a balancing mechanism."


And yeah, Shinobi put very succinctly what I've been saying. "It is too good if it is essence free because it wont cost magic making it the much better exceptional attribute." Yet if it is not essence free (And you're willing to accept that it costing essence doesn't mean that we as humans went extinct a billion years ago), it is a reasonable quality. It has advantages and drawbacks and you actually have to think about if you want to get it or not instead of being written down as a must have right next to sensitive system for a mage.

@shinobi - Yeah, I agree with the no essence cost pushing it into the too powerful category, but I don't think having the essence cost makes it useless. There is after all the quality 'filthy rich' or whatever that lets you trade in quality and general BP for extra cash, and this is very similar except a bit cheaper and more specialized as you can only get a particular type of item with the 'money' it gives you.



Not quite. Best you can do with bioware is 4 points above your natural max because toner only goes up to rating 4. It would also require restricted gear, which means all 35 quality BP, 15ish equipment BP, and 95 attribute BP to get a 14 agility. Now while a 14 agility is really sweet and everything, that's almost half of your BP for a single stat.

Muscle Toner 4, Suprathoid Gland, Bonus Attribute Point?
That's a +6 to your natural agility. Not the Maximum mind you.

Forgot about suprathoid gland. You could also combine it with cyber muscle enhancement as well I suppose.

Of course now you're looking at another 9(?) or so BP used, and you've burned over a point of essence. Still good, but I'm just saying that just because it can be done doesn't mean it is entirely broken, as you'll be sacrificing most of everything else about the character to manage this. And of course the GM is just going to veto it anyway.

What is bonus attribute point? Never heard of that ware.

No, Cyber and Bio-Muscle are usually incompatible.
Exceptional Attribute Point is an edge that gives +1 to the MAXIMUM ATTRIBUTE RATING,
Bonus Attribute Point is an edge that gives +1 to the ACTUAL ATTRIBUTE RATING.
For example you have strength of 5 and take it, you have now Strength of 6.
But if you are a human without anything that gives more maximum and you take bonus attribute point while at your maximum, nothing happens,
So a human with 6 STR does not get to go to 7 STR with this, if he does not have for example exceptional attribute.
Is that not in SR4 anymore?
Also, it's completely inside the rules, aside from the character not fitting into the group, why should a GM veto this?

Page ref.

Don't tell me that it's not in there anymore? O.o
Is it not in SR4 anymore? It was in SR3.
I am at work, i don't have anything to point at.

It became superfluous when the system went to BP primary. With Karmagen, it's extra-superfluous.

They really took that one out? I am shocked.

Let's put it another way. It's a 10 BP Quality that doesn't count toward your Quality limit and is the only way to raise Attributes.

You answered your own question. GM (should) be looking for more than just 'is this RAW or not' when approving a character. Should also look for group compatability. In general if everyone is playing fairly regular characters and someone plops down a munchkin, the munchkin is going to get vetoed or find sniper bullets have a real fondness of his/her head.

I could be wrong but I thought the rules simply indicated the vehicle was wrecked. HOW it was wrecked was up to the GM to say. But most of the time when something explodes, fire and/or explosives are involved. As for knockdown, if you're shot you 'may' fall if it puts you into shock fast enough or does enough damage to have justifiably hit a nerve, the actual KE of a bullet won't do it, unless its a troll shooting at you, with something sizable.


Actually I'm 'fixated' as you would put, on essence in general. The reason I'm bringing up genetic heritage in this particular thread 'might' be related to the title of the thread.


The presence of magic does not necessarily have any world ending impacts. The presence of a method of limiting the number of beneficial genetic changes which can occur in a given decent group before it does out regardless of how 'fit' it is for its environment does. The way essence works in general actually means a great deal of the medical technology the game has can not exist by its own rules. For example, if you have tons of cyberware installed in your body, but your heart is natural, at some point your spirit will simply leave and your heart will stop. If I cut your heart our of your body, and hook it up to just a much machinery which supplies it with nutrient, and oxygen, it will beat until it dies of old age. If I cut your heart out and hook it into someone else's body, same thing if they look after it right. Now ask yourself which of the above 3 examples is likely to cause the largest change in the aura the heart is surrounded by? Why can I grow a heart attached to a machine, just fine, but if I attach machines to the body the heart is in, the heart will simply stop?


That the soul would somehow know the same virus working in the same fashion which infected your grand parents is still 'unnatural' 3 generations later and costing you essence..... Because that really IS a stretch. Unless there is some way for the soul to know, allowing to know the difference is stupid. I can understand that a soul might work out that the body its in has been altered, if said soul lived in the body prior to the alteration, but if the body didn't exist prior to the DNA being changed so the soul had no way to get to know it... then ya. I have a problem with that. Doing this forbids a lot of high level bio-engineering, and would outright kill much of the human food supply which has no doubt been extensively genetically modified by this point.


When a balancing mechanism has such dire consequences as to kill off your food, and terminate the life on your planet, then the balancing mechanism needs to be fixed. Make the edge of genetic heritage cost more, but having it charge you and an a significant portion of your descendants essence has consequences which mean our species would not have existed to develop the technology in the first place.

Normally I'd agree that you are sacrificing everything else to do this, but in the case of agility you aren't sacrificing much. Agility is pretty much the do everything physical stat, a 15 agility makes you damn good to ridiculously awesome in everything physical except driving stuff and climbing and parachuting. I'm fairly sure if I wanted to I cold make a character with a 15 agility a decent body and reaction and not totally incompetent in the remaining abilities. Seriously how much do you have to spend on skills to be bad ass at what you do. Nothing puts you at 14 dice, a skill group of 1 in firearms and close combat puts you at 16 dice. And I wont even go into skill wire stupidity.

This can easily be avoided by capping total hits on dicerolls to SKILL X 2.

18D6 (+2 smartlink) but capped at 2 hits total due to skill limitations.

I just have this problem as it seems to cripple the enthusiastic armature. While this emphasizes skill over attributes, which I do feel is a good thing, I'm not sure I a fan of this particular implementation.

I do think you meant amateur so I'll go with that. ^_^

I know what you mean but at the same time that is like taking the worlds most limber acrobat or the most precise lockpicker - since both "skills" in those regards would use Agility and give them a gun.

They might be able to contort themselves into ping-pong balls and skip across the grand canyon while juggling handgrenades but I'm rather sure it will not make them master marksmen unless they have the proper skills.

Depending on your game you could take a more complex calculation to give a bonus for those with high attributes.

Max Skill X2 + Agility/2 = Max Successes

With Agility 10 and Pistols 1 you would look at 7 successes, which aint bad for an amateur.

Of course, the important thing to note is wether you are capping net hits or hits period.
if he can only get 2 hits period, he won't be able to do much with it.
if he can only get 2 hits net, he can, at least, do some things but not that good and not that much either.

@mordinvan Since you're ignoring half my arguments in your rebuttals I'm just going to drop this. If it blows your mind that much, whatever, don't use the quality, but I think you're cutting out a nice little quality for pointless reasons.

What about defaulting, eh? How do you deal with the "I have no skill, but I'm trying anyway" people?

I'd assume max 1 hit or 1 net hit. It isn't a bad house rule if you want to increase the importance of skills, but it has its flaws. I prefer reducing of stacking modifiers and removing skill caps. Though my method is a lot of work.

But it really does nothing to solve the perceived problem of stats helping too much. Lets look at your example 7 successes, you'd normally need 21 dice to get that on average, with a mere 11 dice, getting more than 7 successes is rare enough this doesn't really limit it.

While I don't use a max hits rule, I've considered a rule of Skill+2 or 3 max hits. Means amateurs can still do stuff.

skill is a little out topic you should start a new thread !

..... maybe......

Would this be the 1/2 of your argument which says 'its magic, deal with it'?
Cause that's not the most convincing line of reasoning I've ever heard.

Not quite possible at char-gen. You would need the exceptional Attribute quality, SURGE II to get the metagenetic improvement, then restricted gear twice to buy the muscle toner and suprathyroid gland. That's 40 points, so it's not doable in standard (35 points of qualities) campaigns. The genetic optimization, you could just buy, but not every GM would let you improve your Agility to a maximum attained by geneware, at char-gen. Assuming they did, you would still be paying 85 points on your Agility to get it from 3 to 10 (the metagenetic improvement is the only one that gives you a bonus Attribute point, too - the others only raise your maximum). And you would have spent 122,000 on those three pieces of 'ware, which is quite a chunk of change.

Such a character (assuming a campaign where you could bypass the two hurdles above) would be like the pornomancer - maxed out in a narrow area at the expense of overall effectiveness. You would have a functional character, but not an optimal one.

Actually, given that nearly half the skills in the book are linked to agility, the character will actually be able to do a huge number of things. The CC, firearms, and stealth groups even at a 1 would give this character 15-16 dice in all forms of combat and be darn good as an infiltrator. The character won't be amazing in other stats, but can easily manage a smattering of 2s and 3s (And 4s thanks to the gland)

And while the character has spent half their possible money alotment, they still have plenty left for a nice gun, some wired reflexes, and whatever other little goodies they might want.

The main thing is that a character like this is likely to get rejected by the GM if the game isn't already full of little munchkins.

And if you wanted to, you could spend 60 more BP to be a drake and get +2 more agility for all those nice things (you have to be an eastern drake and be in dracoform, but hey, +2 dice and a scary mug! What could go wrong?). And those points just come out of your total (as opposed to a limited pool), which it looks like hasn't been completely spent yet.

Two problems with that.

First, drakes start out with a Magic Attribute of 1, and if it gets reduced to 0, they lose the ability to assume drake form. So you would need to buy up your Magic rating to offset your Essence loss, in addition to buying the drake quality. When I actually ran the numbers of the Agility: 15 elf, it was less limited than I thought it was (although there are still the two rules hurdles that I mentioned). But a drake with Magic will really be sacrificing in other areas.

Secondly, it's a moot point anyways, because while drakes can accept augmentations, they don't carry over to the dracoform - which is where the +2 Agility was coming from.

Agreed, you can't quite get the max 15, but you can get to 14 by dropping the gland and planning on picking that up later.

Touche. I'd lost track of how we were getting all these bonuses.

From pure munchkininium... or is it munchkinite?

I can never remember

Munchkinobtainium.