Something like Vampire the Masquerade's discipline of Obfuscate.. you send out a low-level psychic impulse to ignore that the character is there. The eyes see him, but the mind doesn't. (Doesn't work against cameras!) It would likely also cover people loking at it's mana signature.

Not when hackers start to pwn your compound - and after a while, people won't come for the stuff you protect: They'll steal the drones.

There is no cheap security that can stop a team of professional shadowrunners, or thieves for that matter. When you get around the 400BP and a team of 5 with mages and hackers/TMs, only extreme measures will stop you.


Most security is intended to protect non-critical facilities; 5K surveillance drones are pretty good for those. An expert hacker could steal them, but a common burglar doesn't have a chance of ever finding it (good luck with -10 to your Perception, plus whatever the drone succeeds in getting on a hiding test). Expert hackers can earn more money elsewhere than by stealing 5K drones (or else the GM is really not paying enough; why would hackers do anything risky if there's easy money?)


For a critical facility, security is based on diversity and redundancy. While any character can deal with some methods of security, only an efficient, cooperating and skilled team can deal with both spirits, drones, defensive landscaping, guards and booby-trapping.


(Besides, hard-to-hack drones are a real possibility. Step one: wireless inhibiting coating on the building to force the hacker to come inside. Two: motion sensors at all entry points, which give an alert whenever someone enters the "offline zone", before they have a chance to hack the system. Three: drones maintain radio silence unless they're sounding an alert, making them very hard to find. Four: if any drone, sensor or system detects a Scanning attempt to locate hiden nodes, an alarm is given. Five: Firewalls, IC, Spiders. Six: redundancy - if any drone detects another drone violating protocol, an alert is given. Seven: do not put all drones in the same network, so every group must be hacked separately. Eight: keep your security protocols secret, and alter them regularly to make sure leaks don't stay valuable for long. Nine: make sure your security hackers are really trustworthy.)

As always, the weakest link is always human resources

..where did you get that number from?

Micro drone -6
Ruthenium Polymer -4

That's the size mod to attack it. It's not a vision mod. Even the concealability modifier only comes into play when carrying int, you know, in your pocket.

And of course, not being able to see at all is a -6 mod. So no, no vision mods worse than that.

Yes, because trusting your artifcial AI resources are so much safer - at least they don't have any ulterior human motives (most of the time..)

AFB right now, but I'm almost sure that the same penalties to attack also apply to visual perception.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the RAI but if the infiltration skill is supposed to cover being able to plan a approch taking into account possible things that might be there and in this I'm mostly thinking cameras and sensors but spirits arnt that much difference particually if we are talking someone with a skill of 5-6 which is professional level skills, level 1 might only be able to handle blatently spotable cameras or people but the stone cold professional should have the mindset that thinks "if it was me I would put a sensor in that corner covering that side of the room" thus being less liable to be suprised

Even if they do - if you poke your eyes out, you are at -6.

The real issue is that small things have a high threshold to notice - but by RAW wisdom, thresholds don't apply to opposed tests. Which is easily fixed by a house rule, though.

Sorry, my mistake. It should be this:

Perception Threshold (Micro): 4
Ruthenium: -4 dice
.. for an independently ranging microdrone.

I was also thinking along these lines as well.

I agree, but how would one plan for an invisible, intelligent, camera that flies around at about 75 MPH? Really, I don't understand the problem with infiltration having its limits. AFAIK, no one has stolen Coke's formula or KFC's herbs and spices list, much less explored something like Area 52. Magic has an advantage over mundane sneaking... is that really that big of a deal? If someone has the resources for magical surveillance then maybe bringing someone magical would be prudent - the GM may hint about this just on a successful roll.

Sounds like drones.

It would be a big deal, if it weren't wrong.

Back to the original topic for a moment.

I wouldn't apply negatives to a sneaking test for unknown presences.

Lets say a character wants to sneak across a warehouse. He thinks it's empty, but he is practicing and motivated to do it as silently as possible. If someone came in a minute before and stood around without him knowing would it change how silently he moves? How would it change how quickly he darts between boxes? Why should HIS roll be changed when his actions are unaffected?

The PC's attempt should not be modified negatively because he doesn't know something is there. On the other hand, if he KNOWS that there is a camera, spirit, person, etc there, he might perform BETTER with that knowledge. A small bonus might be made if the sneaker is aware of enough of the security.

His roll should be only be modified by things that directly effect with his ability to perform the action. A unknown security presence doesn't do that, since that presence makes it's own test in order to detect him.

My ability to see you doesn't effect your ability to sneak. Even if I have an overwhelming advantage you sneak just as well, I just see better then you're able to sneak.

People are confusing who should be getting the modifiers.

Not really, a microdrone isn't flying around anywhere close to the same speed as a spirit. Just going off of SR4A (I don't feel like searching each book for special drones). A spirit has a speed of 100 with no modifiers - and is completely invisible. You don't even get to look for it unless it passes through you. A microdrone moves at 10 and can still be spotted. Only small and medium size drones can move as fast as a spirit (but you still have to deal with acceleration) and those drones actually give you a bonus to spot them due to their size - not to mention it would be hard to miss something the size of a toaster flying around inside a building, or hallway - not so with a spirit.

That just doesn't make sense though.

Suppose an alert guard is standing guarding at door at the end of a long hallway. You are trying to get to that door.
Are you going to move down the hallway while the guard is there? No.
Why not? Because no matter what your infiltration roll that guard will see another person moving down the long hallway.

Now, suppose a spirit is there - completely invisible.
Are you going to move down the hallway? My guess would be yes.
Are you going to be spotted? Yes.

Your actions are not the same based on whether or not you are aware of something. While the person sneaking around may not get negative modifiers the person perceiving pretty much gets an automatically successful opposed roll.

And, pray tell, what do you believe this extra magical person does for the intended sneaking? We have already determined that Concealment is the only magic that affects astral perception, so if Infiltration does not work against astral perception at all, then concealment by itself isn't going to keep you hidden from a bound spirit of reasonable force (I'd expect a 4 or 5). Much lower than 4 and the spirit isn't even an issue.

Yeap, you just summarized my post and disagreed.

So yes, if he knows the guard is there his action changes. He could potentally get a bonus or not.

He doesn't know the spirit is there and sneaks by. Well, two things can happen. The GM can rule that the ninja is obvious to the spirit in which the stealth roll is negated entirely, or the GM can rule that the spirit might be looking the other way, might not know the aura isn't from a guard, isn't paying total attention, etc and would have to make a perception check.

Both results doesn't apply a negative to the ninja's sneak. One is just determining that it doesn't matter. Like making a balance test on a solid floor, cause a mage made an illusion of it being a tightrope over a pit. The PC doesn't know the test is meaningless, but still makes the test and performs well or poorly regardless if the test was meaningless or not.

Oh, all sorts of stuff:

1) Someone astrally perceiving could just say "Its impossible to sneak past them - there are too many spirits" so you don't get seen in the first place.
2) The person perceiving could say "They seem to follow a pattern you have X amount of time after they leave/move on."
3) The person could say "We can't sneak in, but we might be able to pass as a guard."
4) The mage may decide that they need to see another mage go into/out of the building and use Flexible Signature to match their Astral Signature.

I guess it depends how challenging you want your game to be.

oh boy...another person on this thread concluding that magic=omnivision.

and edit-i agree with Tagz assessment-
regardless,
it still seems that we will have this argument regardless, some who believe those trained in
infiltration can try to hide from anyone, regardless of what plane they are on, and the others
who believe magicians/those with astral perception have the ability to just shit on another persons ability
to play their character how it was intended.
Their table, their rules.

Maybe my point wasn't clear. Some things just are impossible - no matter what your dice pool is. Not everything deserves an opposed roll. By saying "the steath roll is negated entirely" you are basically saying the ninja gets a -X modifier where X is their dice pool depending on the situation.

Magic isn't omniscient no more than infiltration always works against everything no matter the situation.

actually, infiltration doesn't always work,
there is a perception check to notice the one infiltrating. And though it may look
like its nigh improbable to see the infiltration specialist, especially if they have a decent skill+agi,
mages, per RAW have the ability to see them without modifiers like camouflage, chameleon coating, etc
to their perception rolls.
That is part of the balancing act. Which was discussed several times on this thread before you came into it.

Also, lets take into some often overlooked perception checks.

Infiltrator fires silenced sniper rifle.

Perception check threshold of 2

2!
tell me that's hard to get.
Now perceiver knows a basic place to see infiltrator.
(+3 on perception checks)

hmmm, that doesn't include astral perception bonus modifiers.

my opinion has been stated, once more.

almost

if it was a -X modifier, then every guard would get to see him too. they don't. only the spirit does until it alerts everyone. so more like a +1000 mod to the spirit, but that's a very minor technicality that I'm just harping on for fun, but kinda is my point. Applying the modifier to the wrong person. The spirit having "auto win" on the test doesn't mean ninja "auto fail" to everyone.


*edited for spelling and clarification

No, they don't - that would only be the case if you stuff them down your pants and try to get them into a club that way.

Of course, you are missing the entire point: There is no rule telling you that if you fail to perceive the observer, you automatically fail to evade him.
And you will fail to perceive some cameras and drones.

I like the idea of a specialization in Astral Stealth, because the things that make you inconspicuous on astral won't necessarily work as well in physical. As somebody else pointed out, walking around wearing a [refrigerator-sized] cardboard box effectively makes you invisible on astral since los to your aura is blocked and you look like one more dimly-visible physical object in a sea of dimly-lit physical objects. On the physical plane, however, a moving cardboard box might draw attention. As far as I know, I haven't heard that you need to worry about noise on the astral, while you certainly would in the physical.

Now Apathy brings up something I and my group have been wondering for a while now.

Sound on the astral.

It's not mentioned in RAW at all. So, is there just no sound from the physical on the astral? Or what?

pg 191 SR4a

"Astral perception is a psychic sense that is not linked to the
character’s physical sight. A blind magician can still magically perceive
the astral plane and the creatures and auras within. Likewise,
deaf magicians can “hear” in astral space."

Edit-that's the only thing i can find that tackles the sound thing-
though not clear, i would assume it means they can hear sounds made on the physical...
or, it could just mean that they can hear the spirit screaming at them on the astral plane.

Another Quick edit-pg 114 of street magic states that an astral observer can eavesdrop on
real world conversations.

Yes, drones are better off saying "nah, I'm not rolling to hide.. I'll just sit here, much harder for you to find me than if I actually TRY to hide..."

thanks walkswith. answered a question i've had for a while now

I think i'm going to treat it much like visual. if the sound is made by something with an aura it's fairly clear, if made by something with a shadow, like the sound of a engine, it's faded and lacks detail and is like a distant echo.

I don't believe that anyone ever said that Stealth always works. At the same time others have claimed that spirits always see through stealth.

At a certain point a gm makes a decision based upon perception of reality and effect upon the story. If a non astral guard is standing in a perfect position to spot a sneaking player, the GM can decide that he cannot possibly miss seeing the infiltrator, or he can decide that a roll is best either way, whatever the GM decides is most appropriate. The exact same thing would apply to a spirit that happened to be in the perfect position. There is no difference between these two situations. The difference would come in when the infiltrator is discovered, and what actions they might take.

Now the big argument is what happens if the spirit is not in perfect position, or more likely, the GM has not decided exactly where the the spirit is. How quickly the spirit might move is only relevant if the spirit is moving around, and the same with drones, or guards for that matter. Either they are in a position to see the infiltrator, or they are not. Again the GM can make some determination about how frequently each observer might attempt to discover a hidden person, but each roll would be made depending upon the ability to see the target from current position. A spirit zipping around at the speed of thought might roll more often, or perhaps receive a bonus to it's roll, but in none of these cases do the guard/drone/spirit's position determine whether the sneaker is sneaking. After all if we apply a different modifier to sneak against 20 different observers it becomes necessary to make 20 separate rolls of crossing one floor in one round of action.

I believe, that if a player is aware of one or more observers, he should receive a small bonus to sneak against them, or in the event of multiple observers, he can increase the threshold required to spot him for each observer that he is aware of. Then any observers who the infiltrator is unaware of should gain a bonus based upon position, and the fact that the infiltrator is unaware of them to their perception roll, or in the case of sufficiently superior position (floating in air invisibly directly above the entry door be granted automatic success).

There could be a chance that you get lucky - but only if you can get lucky.

Answer me how you would rule this:

You are infiltrating a building. You are making your way down a long hallway filled with motion sensors, crisscrossing lasers that are impossible to squeeze through, pressure sensors on the floor, and has a fiberoptic camera hidden at the end. Only someone with a particular RFID can walk down the hallway and not set off the alarms.

You roll your perception and botch the roll - you don't see anything.
You roll your infiltration and get 20 successes and start down the hallway.

What happens?

Do you pass right through the lasers, put no pressure on the floor, evade the camera aimed right down the hallway, and not set off any motion sensors?

Or do you set them off?

Hmm... In the unlikely event such a thing happened...

Yeah, you pulled a Mr. Magoo. But only because of the incredible 20 would I allow that.

there are other rule sets for pressure plates/motion sensors and the like,
i don't think infiltration plays a part on those rolls, as they are separate checks.

covered on page 261 SR4a

Actually, pressure pads are a *specialization* of infiltration along with motion sensors.

The point is, in some situations attempting something in a particular manner is an automatic failure.

Now, if the player had 20 successes on his perception test he probably wouldn't even go down the hallway. He would decide to find an RFID chip, maybe they even have the tools to deal with it, or try to get a hacker to turn stuff off or prevent the alarms. However, if they don't *know* about it and attempt something it doesn't matter how stealthy they are.

look at the page number i posted, i am not going to quote the whole book for you.

in the case of the pressure pad, i assume an infiltrator has the option of applying less weight in his walk, with the motion sensor, to defeat
the system requires an infiltration check.

and yes, its a given if he cannot see those security measures, there is a chance(on the rules located on the pg i referenced)that he will,
as another put it, Mr MaGoo it.

Yet, they use a different game mechanic, so it never factors in. And of course, it's again:

I know the rule, but here is the catch. Pressure sensors require you to be quick (to not put your weight on the sensor) however motion sensors require you to be slow. Not to mention the laser beams that well... I am not sure how you can rationalize passing through beams you aren't aware of and not setting them off.

the thing is, i am not rationalizing that the person may set off the sensors....
they have separate rules, that would be taken into account.

Here would be my take on what stimuli are available on the astral would be since its all psychic and stuff there:

"If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it make a sound."

In the physical SR world, I would say yes. But if it was the astral SR world? I would say no - unless its totally a bad example since the other stuff around it is alive in that forest and they "hear" it ... lets just make that a stone falls in a cave devoid of life maybe then ... but the earth has an aura?! Hmm, but what are the chances the earth every paid it any mind, I would say pretty slim since it is working on a scale so far beyond caring about every little pebble in its crust...

To sum up, I figure if no one has anything psychic about it, it doesn't produce a stimuli on the astral.

Yes, I just did say that traveling stealthy like in areas devoid of life (or life that doesn't think about the small disturbances you are making) would make you more stealthy, provided they don't have any line of sight on your aura.

---

That all said, on to my questions: Do spirits have thoughts that wander thinking about all the cool shit they would rather be doing than guarding/patroling whereever they are? Astrally blink or sneeze? Scratch their balls? Get bored and tired of staring at the same damn drab physical shadows? Get distracted by shiny astral objects? Do they miss details because their concept of time is different? If they only think in terms of what kind of spirit they are, does that mean some things would be beneath their notice? If stationed or patrolling by a place that is guarded in the physical by living beings, does it read their auras for something to do like reading a book? Do they observe omni directional or do they have to look up/down/side to side ... do they have "vision" like a cat or a human or a fly?

Reason I am asking these questions is, unless you think of spirits as perfect infallible beings (which I think doesn't fit with them having stats that we can game ways to beat with our character's stats, tactics, and strategies), then even mundane infiltration should have a chance against their perception even if they have superior position...

And lets talk about superior guard position. Superior guard position is all about observation of approaches to a point of egress, correct? Wouldn't the Inflitrator (aka Sneaky Ninja aka Splinter Cell) be aware of that as well and take the path less traveled and with cover to block line of sight?

And lets talk about line of sight as well. If you have a person with you who can astrally perceive, wouldn't it stand to reason that if they inform you that there are spirits about guarding a place, they would have had to get line of sight on those astral objects? And if you think that just getting line of sight for the guards equals no chance to be sneaky, why wouldn't that mean that the spotter on your runner team just got spotted by the astral guards and an alert or alarm just went off?

Fancy that, infiltration a viable skill for astral things/magicians/mystics/adepts/awakened drugs(or tech) users too!

Please, for the love the game, don't insta win astral perception, make a roll, even if you do toss situation bonii into the pool. Then fake/flub the roll behind a GM screen anyways for whatever you sense as the GM would be the most fun for the other players anyways.

Ok, then if you have a spirit sitting at the end of this hallway - that never tires, that only looks down the hallway, and only lets a particular astral signature down the hallway do you still get to pass through? Does infiltration change your astral signature?

If a player burns Edge you may allow an act of god type event (the power flickers/the spirit is called away) but on a normal infiltration test there is no reason why the player could walk down a hallway passing through lasers, over pressure pads, through motion sensors, laser beam, and avoid a camera.

Yes, but the same would apply to normal guards.



I think we're talking about two things now:
A) Can a huge amount of Infiltration successes allow you to sneak through an unsneakable passage? (No)
B) Can you sneak past things you can't see? (Yes, but the invisible observer could get a Superior Position bonus)

Sometimes the invisible thing is positioned in a way that it's a case A, rather than B. But not all case B are case A. This is possible for microdones, spirits, cameras, guards, invisible guards, booby-traps - everything.


As an option for case B:
For every class of observer, there is a Knowledge: Security Applications of X. The ninja's rating in that knowledge is a cap on the hits he can achieve against things of invisible X. This Knowledge represents the ninja's understanding of how X could be used to spot him, where X would be positioned/moving, how to evade X, etc.

No. It does affect if the spirit notices you.

I am, of course, assuming you meant Aura, as mundanes do not have, nor can leave, astral signatures.




Fixed that for you.

I agree with everything you said but this. The difference is that the infiltrator would see the guards. If that is the case they may or may not even attempt to sneak down a hallway. If they do decide to go down the hallway it may be because they feel they could make it to an alcove or somewhere hidden to get close enough to attack a guard before they can trigger an alarm. They may feel they could use their Con or Disguise skill (in which case it is probably better to not act sneaky at all).

The OP was discussing being able to use infiltration against spirits. You can try to use it - but if you are completely unaware of something they have a significant advantage. In some cases it may be an insurmountable advantage. There is reason modern day prisons, military bases, the White House, aren't just infiltrated by "ninjas" all the time - you need more than just plain old stealth.

if they were infiltrated by ninjas...
would you hear about it?

No, I meant astral signature. Similar to an RFID a mage can cast a spell which leaves a signature. A mundanes "astral signature" is nonexistent they *can't* defeat the sensor (spirit) - at least not with infiltration. It doesn't matter how quick, or stealthy, or whatever.

I have a problem with the perfect tech or astral guarded hallway because any infiltrator of sufficient skill and talent would just bypass the whole damn thing, crawling through maintenance tunnels, air ducts, false floors/ceilings and so on. Find a infiltration specialist and I would not be surprised if you also found a building inspector, building contractor, and civil engineer as well. Try as one might, no system is infallible, it can only approach zero through redundancy and flexibility ... remember, a perfect system prevents even those who have legitimate business being there from entering.

Oh, and I meant to add an idea I had earlier when considering both distracting all the various forms of guards on the physical, tech, and astral: Vermin. Release a cage/box full of rats/mice/cockroaches/spiders/lizards/whatever into the place you want to infiltrate and give the whole damn system a shit load of false positives while you infiltrate - when the place has a thousand false positives going off, how are they going to know for certain which positive alert is your ninja?

Better yet, that reminds me of a movie, go pink mohawk ninja and attach explosives to your vermin ala Wanted.