By RAW, the sneaker gets the same dice pool as they do for normal Infiltration tests. There are no penalties or positive dice pool modifiers listed on any table for Infiltration (maybe there are... can you come up with ANY reference for this?). There are pieces of gear and adept powers that ADD to Infiltration checks (like reflex recorders), but I don't know of any penalties.

In the case of "not being able to see the perceiver", there are a lot of analogies to stealthing through other invisible sensors and detection. Just because it is "magic" doesn't mean you apply special penalties to the Infiltration test. If anything, the Infiltration check is the same, and the Perception test (in the case of Astral Perception, Assensing) is the test that is modified. What you are supposed to do is apply dice pool penalties and bonuses to the entity using Perception. In the case of Astral Perception, you are allowed to use the appropriate astral visibility table in Street Magic.

Line of Sight still blocks aural visibility, and this is true whether you are talking about shadows from the physical plane (like a wall) or living auras. A person hiding behind a crate CANNOT be read by astral perception, period. Brightness doesn't matter.

pg 114 Street Magic, left column, bottom paragraph.
I would assume that pretty much covers any thought that an infiltrators aura could not be
concealed to an astral observer.
I am too lazy to type it out, excuse me on that.

Also, Falconer, once again, it says nowhere in the 'fluff' portion or otherwise that normal auras,
once again, not astral presences, glow like freakin lightbulbs.

I think every other poster has listed the several sources, etc.
For some reason you are hanging on to this misguided belief that astral perception is the omnivision.

edit: also, now that i am not on my ipod, i just wanted to add this-

Actually, infiltration and Disguise are two different skills.

How bright? Show me a rule that says "Sapient critter, including metahumans shine on the astral equal to a flashlight" or something, and I'll agree with you. Otherwise, my chemlight interpretation is equally valid.


Yes, he learned his GM believes that magic should trump all in every circumstance, and he should have played a mage.


Can he time it to sneak past fiber-optic mini-cameras? No, but Infiltration skill works perfectly well against those, right?


He has plenty of ways to hide in the astral. crouching between crates and the wall. Equally effective against Perception and Astral Perception.


Right, chameleon suit wouldn't work... but the skill should work perfectly well. Shadows, by the way, don't work that way on the Astral. The sun isn't shining down, nor are the light bulbs in the warehouse. These are shadowy reflections and no more. In fact, there's no way to tell from the Astral whether the lights are on or off. The whole of the Astral plane is light more or less uniformly aside from auras and Astral entities, such as spirits. I don't recall reading anywhere that this light casts shadows, either, now that I think on it.


He's not complaining about not getting his tech goodies. He's complaining about his skill being completely useless. At least the UWB radar actually states that it can see through walls. There's nowhere in the books that sys, or even implies, that Infiltration skill doesn't work on Astral perceivers.

Ok, after a lot of consideration I realized that Solid Snake was RIGHT ALL ALONG.
You just need a cardboard box with you all the time. That way, you beat mundane and astral perception at the same time.

quoted for the awesomeness of this post

also, i wish we could pen in an infiltration specialization of "astral perception" just to make Falconers head explode.

I am not to lazy to type it out.


Emphasis mine.

Why would you need to pen it in, you can already specialize in Infiltration by detection method. Guess what 'Astral' is a detection method. Therefore by RAW you can have Infiltration (Astral) even as a mundane.

RP wise, to train for it one would assume you'd have to spend a lot of time trying to hide from friendly Spirits though. Actually, that's a pretty cool training montage right there and could be something your character could benefit by doing; getting his team mate Shamans to assist by providing the spirits.

Also, Falconer points out that Mages are forced to spend vast BPs/Karma on getting both Assessing and Perception. This is because they do two different things. Astral Perception is the ability to spot astral forms in the first place; Assensing is the ability to tell things about them that you can't tell normally. In a similar way to Perception letting you see a person, but Judge Intentions, or say a Cyberware scanner, allows you to find out things about them they you wouldn't be able to tell normally.

Coming from you, that about ends the debate on this thread as far as I'm concerned.

- J.

I registered here in part in hopes to be included in a run, but for the most part to add my two cents to this rather interesting topic. Quoting from the 20th anniversary rulebook:

"In some cases this may mean certain
game mechanics are structured more for ease of play or game balance
than to reflect how things actually work."

"these rules sometimes reflect “creative license,” but often they have to abstract
things we take for granted in daily life."

"These rules are not meant to be a direct copy of how things really work—
they can’t be. We try to approximate conditions and situations in
reality as much as possible, but that can only go so far. That being
said, we urge you to appreciate the rules in Shadowrun for what
they are and not stress out when they don’t simulate real life perfectly
or fail to take into account certain conditions or factors."

Anyway, as I see it, I agree with what seemed to me to be the majority in that you should not substantially penalize a stealther for trying to hide from spirits. The major points brought up that I thought were pertinent were: 'Would you penalize a stealther the same amount for a hidden fiberoptic camera?'

I agree that he should not get the bonus for RPC but to give him a -8 dice pool just because he can't see the opponent? I thought it was pretty clear that an astral being has to have LINE OF SIGHT to target an opponent, such as to cast a spell on him. If I recall properly, magicians even suffer dice pool penalties if the target has partial cover, even though he only needs to SEE the target to cast on it (whether or not he is astrally perceiving).

This suggests to me, that cover would interfere with not only spellcasting, but the visibility of auras. Since basically the mage/shaman simply has to see the aura of the target to cast on him, right? Hence the optical visibility requirement?

Given the IMPLICITLY STATED note that the rules aren't 100% real world equivalent, and the CANONIZED difficulties in lining up a target's aura behind cover... NOT TO MENTION the point that has already been brought up by other players which says, in essence: 'if magic was meant to trump everything else, it would be more apparent in the rules'

In addition, I agree with the viewpoints that state, this guy has grown up in a time when magic has been prevalent for DECADES. And he has TWO mages on his team who can't give him pointers on how to avoid being seen by spirits? I don't buy it.

DISREGARDING ALL THAT, if you STILL don't buy any of the above arguments, consider this.... if astral surveillance was SO much of a trump card in regards to physical stealth, a spell would have HAD to have been created to negate this. Just think... desert wars, actual wars, militaries, corpsec... if a single spirit is able to point out an unlimited number of snipers or guerillas on the battlefield, a corp or government would have no choice but to come up with a spell to negate this. So if you are so dead set on the fact that auras stick out like a sore thumb to any sort of astral perception, AT LEAST make a spell available that is the equivalent to astral stealth for a mundane metahuman. Because, if you're that inclined towards realism, it's quite unrealistic to assume that no countermeasures have ever been conceived against it.

Sorry for the short novel, but I just felt that A) it is unfair to frag an otherwise feasible runner this way and B) Dude's argument reeks of 'I don't want you to ruin my plans' rather than 'I'm looking at this from an objective point of view'.

/end rant.

Not quite correct... assensing replaces perception for all uses while astrally perceiving. (SR4a p191)


Since people challenge me to back up my assertion... I'm not going to quote the first 5 PARAGRAPHS of SR4a p191.

I will quote this much from street magic p112
The Mirror World
"The astral plane is a dreamlike realm shaped by eddying flows of mana, the glow of life and the natural world, and the echoes of emotion."

"Unlike the dull gray shadows of physical objects, the reflections of living and magical things glow brightly in the astral."
... more complex forms... "While collections of microbes may just cast a hazy glow in astral space, metahuman auras flicker and dance with layers of emotion and composition." ... "clothes and other non-living objects are often outshone by the brightness of the wearer’s aura"
p114
"The ideal conditions for astral visibility are high contrast: when a single aura stands out starkly against a backdrop of shadows, lit only by the soft glow of the Earth."

What do we know about the astral, life & magic are the sources of illumination for astral perception. All those sources say that they glow. They also state that less complex life forms glow dimly while more complex forms glow brightly w/ lots of detail. The ninja is trying to do the equivalent of sneaking in while wearing a suit made of blinking xmas tree lights.


When that spirit assenses the ninja w/ 1 hit, he doesn't only know he's there. He can also tell his emotional state... Guard... bored. Ninja... on high alert, edgy, apprehensive.


My primary reason for disagreement here is that the methods/tactics used for infiltrating against mundane/technological systems are different than those you'd use against an astral one. In a barren area (warehouse, +1), devoid of life (+2) that's +3 to the astral perception check... plus character doesn't get all his gear. (he still got 5 hits on the infiltration check w/o all his dice?!)... how exactly does the character roll *1* check w/ different dice pools against everything. How exactly does the GM not tip his hand and tell the character how many dice to roll telling out of character information about exactly what is in the area?


I don't disagree the skill works, or that the character can attempt it. I just disagree that in this case, the character had what he said he had. (5 hits on an infiltration check... which was probably rolled w/ all his eqiupment bonuses). And that infiltrating against astral opposition is a good deal harder, because you need to hide from BOTH the mundane sensors/guards AND the astral observers which greatly reduces your available options of where to go, and how you sneak through.


Also, I reiiterate, this kind of magical security isn't the norm. Not an everyday occurance. The fact that a warehouse has magical security should send up a warning flare that there's something important there. (not just paying a magician to setup a ward... but multiple patroling spirits and a security mage 24/7). That's a major ongoing operational cost.

Astral and perceiving entities as well as active foci are lightbulbs on the astral plane. Masking can change the aura so it no longer sticks out, along with the foci on that person.
Mundanes however may have an aura, but its not something that would stick out.

So you're saying a mage is a higher more complex life form than a mundane ;P.

I agree with you active astral forms stand out more... but the books make it fairly clear complex living beings have distinctive auras which stand out and glow more brightly. And in say a crowd of people, it can be very hard to discern one from another, or an astral form hiding in the crowd.

Just for clarification... You would PEWNALIZE someone with Latent Awakening who actually had cyberware/bioware upon their awakening, apart from the already heavy penalty of only having a single point of magic and no magical skill whatsoever?

Wow... Pretty harsh...

Because as we all know, Guards are always bored and are never on high alert, edgy or apprehensive... about anything... ever...

Do you really believe that Falconer?

Keep the Faith

Only because he didn't buy it in chargen. And it's being retconned in. Also because unlike a normal character he's almost assured to awaken... while someone who got it at chargen might never awaken at GM's option.


The way the quality works, he effectively pays 10 karma for it... when he 'awakens' his essence is ignored and the difference in cost between latent and adept is paid. Which is none, because it switches to adept. Now he has 1 magic ignoring all his essence reductions and the surcharge any actual adept out of chargen paid for for both bio/cyber + magic.

How would an adept in the game feel having spent say 30BP on magic, 5BP on the quality, and only have 1point magic + cyber/bio... compared to this guy who bitched and moaned got effectively the same thing for only 10karma.

So a NORMAL character that takes Latent Awakening in your game would most likely NOT awaken (at least according to the implications above)... Penalize your players much...

Players take qualities (and this option is a POSITIVE quality mind you) to see tham have an effect in game... Who cares how the character that started with it feels vs. the character that gets it in play... that was his choice to do so...

The Latent Awakening is not being RETCONNED... and NO, Essence is not being ignored... if the character has less essence than 1, he will NEVER awaken... so essence does matter... your paying the BP in Chargen to have a starting magic of 6 (say) just to lose it to cyber/bio implants is a balancing mechanic in character creation, not after... you get to start with more available power right away, rather than having to build it later... it is called a choice...

And Latent Awakening may be granting Astral Sight, a Spirit/Spell Knack, or even a Full Blown Magician Quality, or any other magically active choice... it is not always an Adept...

Keep the Faith

Actually yes it is being retconned... latent awakening is not something I'd not generally allow a character to buy after chargen.

I have no problems w/ the quality itself. just the points should be spent up front. No more than any other quality... IMO you don't just make a character for RPG's, you talk w/ the GM and he says yes this fits my setting or no it doesn't. This is the same reason I have some minor issues w/ custom magical traditions... how exactly does it fit into the game world.


Though I had forgotten about the astral perception and spell spirit knack bits... that's also sick and twisted enough to consider in the twisting a wish spell sense.

Ahhh, I see your point about the Retconning... he is purchasing the Quality after the fact... again, I say so what, it is not restricted to creation only (Qualities that are so restricted say so in their description, and it is NOT included in the Description for Latent Awakening, at least as far as I could find)... so your dislike for purchasing it after chargen, while valid at your table, may not be valid at anyone else's table... and in fact is actually allowed by RAW.

AS for your arguemnts for what fits a game, that will differ from table to table and is not really the scope of this particular topic...

Keep the Faith

The previous discussion aside...

How long has he been playing? And this is the first time this situation came up? Let the whiner get some new skills. Sounds like his infiltration group is high enough anyway. Mr. Stealth Ninja should not be a one-trick pony anyway. Just try to convince him that there are still many places and times where his stealth skills will not be overcome by magical spotters. And he should learn to recognize when he is and isn't outclassed.

Sorry if this was covered already, I just couldn't slog through all the posts on this thread. I think this could be handled a few different ways:

First, just assume that in the Sixth World, the various skills like Infiltration are taught/learned with the full knowledge of spirits and are fully usable against them just as they are against hidden cameras and the like.

Second, the skill can be used, though at a negative die pool mod. (say 3-4) to reflect that hiding from something like a spirit or projecting mage is hard. This mod could be offset by the character using a knowledge skill that reflects how much they know about spirits and how they operate. This could be done as follows:

They roll the appropriate knowledge skill and count the successes. Each success offsets a single die penalty until either the penalty is zero or there are no more knowledge successes to use. The resulting die pool (which can NEVER be higher than the pre-modified die pool) is used for the skill. I think that this should be done whether they know the spirit is there or not, as their training just kicks in as they do their "thing."

The way that the GM handled it was slapping a -8 penalty on the guy, and that INCLUDED astral awareness training. I personally think that's excessive and unreasonable. I guess we should all start giving everyone a -8 penalty by default for stealth, since there's no way anyone can detect nano/micro-sensors without an E-sensing technomancer. Or a person who cannot be seen sitting behind a tinted-glass window across the street, for that matter.

Are there any RAW penalties against using Stealth skills (other than the usual injury mods)? All of the penalties from having inappropriate camo are positive modifiers on the Perception test rather than negative modifiers on the stealth test. Same with Traceless Walk (penalty to a Perception test rather than bonus to Stealth) and Chameleon Suits (penalty to Perception test). Body Paint/Olfactory Camo is a +1 die to Stealth Skill Group skills rather than a penalty to perception, but it is meant to stack with other forms of blending.

Street Magic p 114

"Note that while these
modifiers replace some physical world perception modifiers
(such as the light level), other physical world modifiers still
apply."

In the paragraph explaining how to use that table. Along with a little bit later.

"Determining cover works the same way on the astral
plane as it does in the physical world (see pp. 140–141, SR4).
Shadows of physical objects in the astral plane may be drab and
insubstantial, but they are still opaque and can prevent targeting.
Items that are transparent or mirrored in the real world
(like a car window) simply impair visibility as astral shadows.
Since there are no ranged weapons on the astral plane and spell
targeting depends on seeing your target, hiding behind physical
shadows works as well as hiding behind a vibrant aura."

The instructions on using the astral visibility modifiers lead me to conclude that physical Infiltration skill is perfectly valid against astral sense without penalizing a player for not being magical.

In addition, immediately following this table is "Though it is often referred to and experienced in visual
terms, it is not entirely the same as physical sight" which tends to make the "glowing in the astral dark" arguments a bit of a reach since the manner in which astral things are perceived do not map in the exact same way as the normal visual sense.

A -8 penalty is very excessive, especially when being effectively blind is only-6.

If we want to get completely realistic, the non-teched out or magiced out individual wouldn't have any hope to sneak past the security features of the Sixth World. But, of course, this is a game. Plus, like I mentioned before, we have to go with some assumption that the characters have grown up in the Sixth World environment and have a working knowledge (to a degree) of what to expect. Infiltration in the Middle Ages is different from Infiltration now, as now's Infiltration is different from that of the Sixth World. At least that I how I see it.

BTW: hansoo, I use the same G.K Chesteron quote for my sig on another board. You get it from Criminal Minds also?

Rand

Yeah, RAW doesn't say there's a difference between sneaking past two alert guards standing across a narrow corridor, and stealthing into a dock area with a single, bored minimum wage overseer. So that's how we play it, right?

Thats not the issue here - it's what happens if you swap out "guards" with "spirits" and "overseer" with "watcher".

Which should change... absolutely nothing...

Keep the Faith

It does change something, it changes only who can say "Hey, that place is being guarded" from what they see.

What it won't change is infiltration because follow with me here, since we all learned from the nice people in this thread who quoted parts from books, that those objects in the physical plane can still block line of sight in the astral plane, so where would one place guards in the physical, wouldn't it follow that would be approximately where one would place guards in the astral as well? Before someone goes pointing out the flying/floating thing for astral, allow me to point out where in the physical plane people would be most likely to place a camera.

In conclusion, the infiltration practiced and used against physical watchers who sound alarms would be pretty damn close to the same thing as what would be used against astral watchers who sound alarms because line of sight is a constant (well not quite thanks to the window thing but hopefully you get the idea).

Here is the part I think we are getting caught up on, its Camouflage (Disguise?) that doesn't work the same on the physical as it does in the astral. So, IMHO, just remove any benefit the Infiltrator gets from his gear in the physical (or better yet, just add a bonus to the astral perceiving person's Perception pool to offset it), unless you deem it is thick enough that his aura doesn't glow through it that is. What is the equivalent of Disguise and Camouflage in the astral, Mask IIRC?

And other than that? Well, if the Infiltrator can't see a camera, hiding camouflaged ninja, or astral spirit, he can't report it to his less stealthy pals, correct?

It is totally possible with what we have for two sneaky things to sneak past each other, fail their perception rolls, and both be none the wiser about an obstacle to other less sneaky folks. Sounds pretty kosher - and even dare I say it fun - to me.

With which I Agree...

Keep the Faith

Currently, camouflage modifies the chance to spot someone, not the difficulty of hiding tests. So you don't need to give spirits a bonus; they simply don't get a penalty earthbound observers get.


I think Infiltration specialties by observer type are a bad system. Because it'd require different rolls against different observers. How I think it's best handled is this:

* Normal Infiltration just makes a test. Any observers who get more hits can see the ninja.
* Some methods of observation might get a bonus for some reason. (For example, because they can't be perceived, and are therefore harder to properly hide from. This is not a penalty on the Infiltration check, because any normal observers aren't harder to hide from, merely because there are special observers.) The bonus would usually be +2
* A ninja can take a penalty on his Infiltration to specifically hide from a certain type of observation, that would normally get a bonus to spot them. That bonus is negated. ONLY in this case does a specialty against specific observer types have an effect; it adds dice, reducing the penalty for specific observers.

Example:

Nick Ninja is moving through an industrial building. He's infiltrating; makes a test, and gets some hits. Charlie Camera, George Guard and Sonny Spirit are trying to see him.

Nick makes a Perception check and spots Charlie. George isn't hidden. They don't receive bonuses against Nick, because he's aware of them.

Sonny gets a +2 to his dice pool, because Nick can't see spirits.



Example2:

Nick knows rumors that there's a spirit there. He's got a Spirits specialty on Infiltration. He hasn't seen Charlie this time.

He thinks there may be cameras, and he wants to hide from both spirits and cameras that he can't see. This makes his job a lot harder; -2 for the spirits, -2 for the cameras. His Spirits specialty kicks in, reducing the penalty to -2 (cameras).

Suppose he fails to spot George; now George gets a +2 to see him, and Charlie and Sonny don't.



This assumes that anything which isn't hidden is seen; that some guards are hidden, some cameras are hidden, and others are obvious, to make sure people behave. (Big brother is watching you.)

Successful sneaking now requires good Perception; but that makes a lot of sense to me.

So, in short, what you are saying is: people just does infiltration tests like they always did and spirits and projecting wizards receive bonus or penalties according to overall cover and astral background (where by background I mean lack or full presence of life-forms, ambiental "noise", etc...)?

Er, no, not what I was saying anyways. I am saying that if the infiltrator is aware of a possible perceiving sentry (thus their position and type of data gathering), the enviroment only benefits them more so, not less. The only possible bonus to a sentry is the infiltrator not being aware of their existence.

So, I figure, the higher a Infiltrator's skill, the more knowledge they possess about possible sentries to their movement and position, thus all the moves they make are assumed between the character moving from where they start and declare what the dice they are rolling are for and their proposed goal. The more complicated this stuff gets in its calculations for if that infiltration to be successful, the more I see this going from abstracted character knowledge to specific player knowledge, which I can only see as being more hassle for both player and GM aka not fun. If the GM makes the additional stuff clear before hand and the player agrees, then I don't see a problem but just assuming the player who rolls a bunch of dice has the same amount of specific pro-elite knowledge of their character to make the call on when they tip toe, panther crawl, stay still, hustle between cover, go over or under the fence, and so on seems like it could be a big headache in not just player decision but GM designing and improvising the scenario.

I hope this makes some sense and it after all only my humble opinion - plus, I could be totally off base in some way, I only own the 1 book SR4A. *shrug*

It kinda reminds me of one of my favorite movies, The Hunted. There are scenes in that movie, especially early on, that if you don't know what you are looking for you can look right past the film's antagonist. I also get a kick out of watching a tv show called Mantracker. If there is some other fun Perception vs Infiltration entertainment out there, I would be glad to hear about it.

That is exactly my point. RAW doesn't state all modifiers you can, will and should apply, very far from it.

If you're playing the game in a way that lets a mundane sneak past a regular guard as easily as a patrolling spirit - who is much faster, can fly, pass through walls, and is invisible to the infiltrator - then you're simply doing it wrong.

I think that completely mundane guards are an extinct species. A typical guard probably carries some of the following:

* Ultrawideband Radar (see through 20 Structure rating of walls)
* Ultrasound
* Thermographic
* Radio signal scanner
* Increased audio sensitivity
* Laser microphone ("is there any minute noise over there?")

Also, all these can be loaded onto a scanner the size of a tricorder, which takes a lot of effort to spot (-2 to concealability, comparable to a light pistol), on a well-hidden camera, or a minidrone. Some fit into a microdrone (-6 concealability). They can further get some ruthenium coating, be made from ceramics to fool a ninja's MAD scanner and so forth.

Since drones and scanners aren't all that expensive, probably cheaper than well-trained guards, they should be the standard by which Infiltration difficulties are measured. And it would be silly to always apply a difficulty to Infiltration.

Actually, the drones you suggest are expensive - around 10 grand for the crawlers, 20 grand for the hunter-killers. I know - I build some of those... and they don't even have upgraded Response.

Same goes for the sensors.

Specially when you add the ruthenium coating and the ceramic parts...

Well, aside from the fact that there is no ceramic mod for drones - it's not only completely useless because MADs are not used against them, but also not even included in the above figures.

I'm not saying they're free, but 10K?

* All microdrones cost 1000-1500
* Chameleon coating costs Body x 1000 (all microdrones have Body 0...)
* Improved Sensor Array costs 1000 and gives room for [3] sensors (strangely, they're even able to function with just one out of the box..)
* Some sensor options: Camera [1] & 100, Microphone [1] & 50, Motion Sensor [1] & 50, Ultrawideband Radar rating 4 [2] & 2000, Radio Signal Scanner rating 6 [1] & 150

All in all, not so very expensive. Given that they'd be -10 to spot (-6 to begin with, chameleon coating for another -4), can fit just about anywhere, crawl around on the ceiling as well..

Yeah, I noticed.. I think it's an oversight in Arsenal. It's a relevant feature for small drones that you could smuggle in your pockets.

Not really - they are made mostly from plastics anyway.

What you have to worry about are cyber scanners and non-linear junction detectors.

The same points seem to be made repeatedly here. I believe that the most important thing here is that the GM applied a -8 to sneak against a spirit. This means that it is impossible for a normal human being to sneak (normal skill 3 stat 3 dice pool of 6) from a spirit EVER. Regardless of who the observer might be, the dice pool penalty for sneaking should only be those things in control of the sneaker. For example Wound penalties, how quickly the infiltrator is moving, is he using cover, and etc. If the observer is hidden so that the sneaker is not aware, that would provide a bonus to perception. If the observer has some sort of special sight, again perception bonus. Lighting? Perception bonus. Number of sentries? Perception bonus. If you feel that the spirit has such an advantage that it should get +8 to it's pool, that is fine, as it is possible for the dice to roll poorly, but to take away 8 dice makes it impossible to even try in most cases.

As an additional point, if you apply bonus to the perceiver rather than negative to the infiltrator, you do not have to tell the player what he is up against.

4 pages in such a short time with so many competent answers. Very Nice. I admit that i have only read the first and the last page of this topic, so maybe somebody already did quote my following thoughts:

Pros:
- infiltration skill works pretty fine even on the astral

Cons:
- while objects are dark shades and living beings are glooming colorful and vibrant, this would definitely qualify for the perception test threshold of 1
- because his doesn´t know on which side of the wall he has to hide, give him another -2 on his dice-pool
- the spirit is actively looking (-3 on his dicepool)
- spirits can fly which grants great overview (+3 for the spirit)

I think this could be a good solution for the problem.

Doesn't quite work Machiavelli. The spirit looking does not in anyway affect whether he has chosen a good hiding spot. All of the things you mention are bonuses to the spirit to make a perception test, not something that determines how stealthy the infiltrator is. If the infiltrator is being super sneaky, he would get all of his dice to roll. If there are 5 different perceivers, some of whom werevisible and some were not, some spirits, some not, then the infiltrator would need to make 5 different die rolls to determine which enemies saw him and which did not. Instead you grant him bonuses or negatives to those aspects of the test that directly affect him. Ie walking on bubble rap, carrying a screeching monkey, or bleeding arterial spray. Then apply bonuses to anyone who has some reason to be more able to see him. One Spirit is on the other side of the room (+1 bonus because he does not know it is there), One spirit which happens to be directly above him (+1 because he does not know it is there, +2 for superior position, +1 because of excellent visibility, + 1 for no cover in the astral). The human guard in Chameleon suit, the human mage invisible, and the hidden camera in the ceiling would be granted similar bonuses as applicable.

In short, the sneakiest people would be seen by someone in the right position, but missed by those in the wrong position. The infiltration skill is not modified by either of them.

I'd like to address this particular point. Is there any reason why an Astral Invisibility spell would be impossible to design within the parameters of the rules in Street Magic? Certainly it is possible in the SR world to conceal objects and living creatures from astral observers, i.e. the spirit Concealment power. Why couldn't a spell be designed to provide Astral Invisibility in an analogous manner to the existing (Improved)Invisibilty spells?

They way I figure it you have an Illusion spell with the following traits:
Type: Mana +0
Range: LoS +0
Duration: Sustained +0
Illusion Hides or Conceals: +2

So you have a Mana-based Illusion with a Drain Code of (F/2)+2.

The only other consideration that comes to mind is one of the Limitations of Magic noted in the sidebar on p. 160 of Street Magic:


This merely requires the caster to be astrally perceiving or projecting when he/she casts the spell on the subject. An extra step, to be sure, but a minor one.

Anything about this spell violate RAW?

Well you have the concealment power of spirits to protect you.

But I agree that infiltration should work normally against astral perception as well for a mundane character. Both from the mechanical and in game standpoint. Think of the consequences if it did not:

Mechanically:
- no mundane would pick the infiltration skill (with the exception of riggers). Any mundane trying to enter a guarded compound would not consider the stealthy approach, and would put those points into heavy weapons / skills to use them.
- as a result more players would choose awakened characters

In game:
- development of stealth and anti stealth technology would probably not evolve as much
- pretty much any wage mage would be a spirit binder
- security in most complexes would be astral. Even a apartment building could afford a bound watcher spirit, especially if they ditched other security measures

Well... The regular Invisibility spell makes people ignore the target of the spell and the spell is already a mana spell so it can be cast on the Astral. It would not be a far jump to say that spell works as normal because the character is never really invisible, he is telling everyone who can perceive him to "IGNORE ME!" and they would.
Now, I'm not saying that it is truly legal by the rules but as written it should work.

Except the spell itself is a separate visible entity on the astral, so instead of a plainly visible metahuman aura, you have a plainly visible spell aura, which is probably even more suspicious

However, if you follow Mikado's assertion that the mana-based invisibility causes people to just ignore the target of the spell, would they notice the spell signature? If not, then the only choice for any infiltration of a high security area is to have a spirit using Concealment on the infiltrators. I dislike having one and only one solution to a given problem. Infiltration skill checks alone versus patrolling spirits will work some of the time, but not enough for professionals to rely upon.

I dispute the relevance of any arguments about how rare magicians or magical security is in the 6th world. Unless you're running a street-level game, the shadowrunners are, almost by definition, hitting targets that are valuable enough to warrant magical security. It doesn't matter if 80%(or whatever) of corporate facilities don't have spirits patrolling because 80% of the ones that runners are trying to hit *do* have magical security.

Yea... Whats to stop someone from making a "Control Thoughts" equivalent to Invisibility? A mage with improved masking and a mind control "Ignore Me" spell could hide (themselves or another) from astral detection.

Compare that against the salary of multiple guards, factoring in sick leave, annual leave, training, 401k/Super/company benefits, etc, against the number of drones, factoring down time for spares/replacements, estimated maintenance cost, it could still be cheaper.

- J.