Yes, your right. And we're not arguing that. We're arguing the assumption that EVERY spirit on lookout is an outright fail for a mundane. Of course if it has a superior position that forces a person to try and sneak by it is vision and is always on full alert for intruders it will see the ninja. But that is not every case.

You have to remember that it's a game that only mimics real life. Maybe if spirits really existed then this would be the standard real life approach. But this method makes for poor gameplay as it renders entire character concepts useless that would otherwise be viable.

A GM should really only be doing this if:
1) There is a very good meta game reason the ninja isn't allowed there
2) it's ultra-high AAA security, and we're talking super tough
3) it drives an important event plot-wise to be detected

A GM deciding something is auto-success or auto-failure shouldn't be something done lightly, and the original poster demonstrated that the GM in question nearly ruled a spirit presence in the security roster to be an auto-fail. Maybe it had that superior position, but from the description I read it didn't sound like it to me. It also didn't sound like there was an important meta-game reason to prevent them from scouting the scene. As for how high that security presence should have been... why did they have a full security team in place for a simple drop off? I think it was a bad call on the GM's part. The spirit there should have gotten a small bonus to spot him, 'bout it. No reason to auto-fail him, or incorrectly apply negatives to the PC for a superior position of an NPC in a perception test.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make: the distinction between the impossible hallway, and the bonuses you'd give to someone with an advantage due to being invisible.

It's quite possible that a hallway is impossible, but the ninja doesn't know it. He gets to roll, but his result doesn't matter. PCs don't always know if they're in case A or B.

No. But spirits on the lookout are like facing invisible patrolling guards that fly really fast through walls, which means you're pretty much down to relying on random chance of being in cover and out of sight when they pass by you.




It makes for fine gameplay. Infiltrators just need magical support to handle some challenges.

Your definition of "fine" is pretty off.

And what magical support would help against being noticed by that random uber-eye coming out of the wall? Wait - none:

Even if you can astrally perceive, if you see it - it sees you, and you are busted just as well.

I want to know how much detail you retain when you fly through a wall at a couple thousand miles per hour.

Personally, I don't see why we're still arguing.

We've already determined that by RAW stealth works as normal in regards to the astral, and that applying a penalty to the PC's action should only be done if the penalty is applied to ALL NPC or other PC's on the opposed side of the test. If it doesn't change the test, it shouldn't modify the test.

A good way to handle the spirit issue is a bonus to it's perception/assensing test, as determined by the GM.

If you determined that a spirit makes an auto-success it is always a GM fait. Some groups will differ on how balanced it is to use this GM fait regularly or not. Your group may love spirits being able to observe every living thing in a 500kph single swoop through a warehouse. Some might not. I'm of the stand-point that it is a poor way to do things as it is omnipresent detection method and I like the idea that PC's should have a chance to do things, even if very unlikely. Only when it's actuallly impossible should it be ruled impossible.

WalksWithWiFi quoted me ons his signature but I'll say it again. People, start using cardboard boxes. I know I will, or at least a small glass shield to give me cover against spirits while I can still se through it.

And get the ones coated with aluminium on the inside. That way, you'll also reduce your thermal signature.

Er, hate to play devil's advocate here, but if a cardboard box works (as in aura not visible), which I presume a metahuman body is going to be near the sides of the box moving around under its cover, why wouldn't thick armor or a camo/ghillie suit with full coverage?

I think I would make the call that if something is no thicker than regular clothing, it won't prevent an aura from being scene and anyways, isn't the use of a box more like use of the Disguise skill than Infiltration?

Page 124 SR4A: "...or blend into the background."

And what, no love for my Vermin idea?

A spirit moving through a building really fast has a lot of chance to NOT be there when the ninja is passing through, too.

Your vermin idea is very good, no doubt, at least would give penalties to the spirits for background "noise".
Now, back to the cardboard idea, if glass can prevent astral perception and glass is most of the time as thick as a good cardboard box, I don't see why shouldn't work. I think the whole aura-is-bright-over-cloth thing is because you are wearing it instead of carrying, just my two on the matter

I would like to point out at this point, pg 112 Street Magic, under Auras

"While clothes and other non-living objects are often outshone by the brightness of the wearer's aura,
intrusive non-living objects like cyberware leave shadowy gaps in auras."

this is obviously contrary to Falconers belief that auras always outshine clothing.

In earlier editions, you could not make assensing tests when moving at "fast speed" - you could only see the blatantly obvious, such as where you were, what the general terrain was, and what the density of auras in the area was. I believe this is true in 4th, but it may just be a big penalty.

In which case, i suggest you read more.

As it's also written elsewhere... even a character in FULL body military armor with no skin visible... can still have their aura seen and used for spell targetting by a mage. The aura extends for a short distance beyond the living entity.

IE: even a bulky full body NBC warfare suit isn't good enough to hide your aura.

The ramifaction of your argument is that if the aura can't be seen the wearer cannot be targeted by spells. This has been addressed in prior editions and nothing in SR4 has changed that.


Just as an example... SR3.. "The astral plane is lit by the glowing auras of living things, including the earth, AND YOUR OWN AURA". That's pretty strong evidence that you light the area around you. I've seen nothing in SR4 which changes the general nature or visualization of the astral.



In answer to the second, there are severe penalties for making assesning tests while moving at 'running' speeds while astral. However, given that WALKING speed in astral is about 100m per turn IIRC. Ludicrous speed really isn't necessary.

See above argument on why I wonder why the cardboard box disguise would not work...

See other past posts on not having line of sight means no "visible" aura on why I wonder why the cardboard box disguise would work...

Colour me confused

No. We've established that RAW doesn't say there's a difference between sneaking down a narrow corridor with 2 guards blocking the path or sneaking across an dock area with a single patrolling guard. RAW doesn't even begin to list modifiers.

Assuming that you shouldn't apply modifiers when facing astral patrols because RAW doesn't list them, is basically throwing anything about planning and difficulty out the window. Want to sneak in somewhere, roll Infiltration vs Perception. It doesn't matter where you're sneaking in, the countermeasures, how well you planned your infiltration, just roll the dice like RAW says.

Yes, we have. There is no RAW difference between astral perception and physical perception when it comes to stealth.

The special scenarios you insist on don't change anything on that point.

Maybe one should note that RAW is often neither flawless nor consistent with itself or the fluff.

I agree with Falconer on the issue. Spirits should get heavy bonuses for percieving mundane infiltrators for the noted reasons:

- people shine on the astral (they are the light sources)
- spirits can fly
- spirits can move through (realspace) solid objects
- spirits cant be seen by the realspace infiltrator

I would give spirits some additonal 10 dice for the perception test in the described situation (warehouse mostly devoid of life and human beings).

I would like to change a bit there.

- Living beings glow on the astral
- Awakened beings SHINE on the astral.

Astral perception is a little buggy because many times they talk about Assensing an aura as astral perception - but that is only when one has found the aura in question.

The perception table is rather good for this, let us look at a grade table for visibility.

Objects - Gray/Flat/etc
Living Objects - Glow on the astral
Awakened Objects - SHINE on the astral

Now, awakened characters playing ninjas would be "Obvious/Stands out" on the perception table and the spirit gets a +2D6 for finding them.

Living objects still stand out from the flat/dead ojects around them so that I would give a +1D6.

Unless a room is emty, devoid of items and mere flat walls I wouldn't allow a spirit to autofind a runner - they can still glitch.

Also, smoke and light throws a "reflection" in a lack of better words on the astral so visibility is impaired which would give people a bonus in Chameleon Suits with the -4D6 to visal perception (yes, I know, it is visual perception).

By RAW all tests against stealth is a Assensing test and if they get 0 successes they would not see the stealthed character.

They need to clarify astral perception because by RAW it IS an "I-Win" button since they would see auras automatically or need ONE success on an astral perception test.

They get the modifiers from the Astral Visibility table in Street Magic and aren't subject to real world lighting. Of course, if people actually bothered reading that chapter, they would notice that the whole damn plane is lit by the glow of the gaia-sphere.

That makes them quite more efficient than human guards.

Sigh.

RAW says



What we have established is that RAW doesn't even begin to approach listing modifiers for this. RAW doesn't say there's no difference between astral and physical perception when it comes to stealth, it just doesn't mention it, like it mentions practically nothing else.

You can make all sorts of bogus statements using your logic. "There is no RAW difference between whether you have a map with realtime updated patrol positions or not when it comes to stealth". So if the PCs bother getting that, there's no bonus for it, because it isn't RAW?

Maybe I'm just playing it wrong - did I miss the part that says that RAW has an exhaustive list of modifiers for all actions, and GMs aren't supposed to think for themselves?

Actually, it does - see p. 114, Street Magic, Astral Visibility, concerning the table of modifiers to use astral perception:
"Note that while these modifiers replace some physical world perception modifiers (such as the light level), other physical world modifiers still apply."

There is. It's called an AR bonus.

Maybe you should stop assuming a given I-Win scenario. Those can be created for both astral and physical perception. They just are not the default for stealth use.

It's pretty hard sneaking across a 100m flood-light concrete perimeter with no cover at all. Does that mean you can't sneak around at all when there are a few lights in a crowded warehouse?

First off, show me where it says this, i am curious.
Though i am not arguing i might have missed something, as i am a person, and people
are full of failure.
Also, i am not arguing that the mage can target the aura with spells...
we are still talking about astral perception vs. stealth, remember?

You are entitled to your interpretation, regardless.
as this is a game, and, the most important rule-
have fun.

I just hope some people are not forgetting this rule.

I don't believe we've ever said a GM shouldn't come up with their own modifiers for a situation if it's deemed appropriate and there is no listing. Go ahead and look over my posts, I don't think I ever suggest doing away with modifiers. I'm against using them WRONG.

My statement of "if it doesn't change the test it shouldn't modify the test" might need some clarification for you.

Example 1: The GM fait (GM decides something is impossible, should be rare with important tasks)
I'm going to impress you with a song!
But I didn't know this, you happen to be deaf. No matter how hard I try I will fail to impress you.
Do I lose all my imaginary dice to singing? No, your being deaf doesn't change how well I sing.
I will sing the same regardless, so no modifiers to my test. I just fail.

Example 2: The challenging situation
I'm going to impress you with a song!
I don't this, but you're hard of hearing. It's hard for you to hear everything I sing.
Should I lose dice in this test? Again, no. I'm still singing the same. But there SHOULD be a change due to the challenge, so, instead a modifier is applied to YOUR test to hear me. If you can't hear me well enough, then I fail.

Example 3: The challenge with info
I'm going to impress you with a song!
I heard that you're hard of hearing, so I'll sing really loud!
Now my test should be modified. My action has been directly effected. I would get a bonus for being extra loud.
Your test to hear me is also modified since you're hard of hearing. If you still can't hear me, I still fail.


This is the basis for what I've been arguing about. A test should only get modifiers if it's been modified.

A spirit in astral doesn't cut it. The advantage is you can't see it. Whoopty-doo. It's no different then a camera you can't see. Or a guard you can't see. Or a drone. No modifier to the test on either side as this is the norm. Why should it work any different? Just cause it's magic? Nope, not good enough.

But give that same spirit superior positioning that can't help but observe an important passage and it WOULD change the test. Spirit now has the advantage of superior position. Give it a bonus as appropriate. Maybe auto success if you deem it.

Now, if lets say the character was hiding behind something that can be looked through astrally but not physically (can't think of anything off the top of my head. Yeah, spirit totally gets a bonus cause you've changed something. The spirit has the advantage of seeing through a type of cover.

I hope I've cleared things up a bit. I don't know about anyone else on my side, but I never said to do AWAY with modifiers. I just said to use them right.

Superios position is such a nice term - it's usual for cameras to be mounted on the ceiling.

P. 160 Street Magic, under LOS targeting rules

"Note that full body
armor does not “conceal” the person within and prevent them
from being targeted."

I just thought of another example.

Instead of sneaking, lets say I'm shooting someone. Again this is an opposed test. It really does not matter whether my target is aware that I am shooting at him. His awareness affects whether he gets a dodge roll, but I do not get bonus dice if he is unaware, and I do not lose dice if he is. I might get bonus dice for shooting under certain circumstances, such as point blank range. I might lose dice if my target is moving. In either case, the dice modifiers are unaffected by the knowledge or lack thereof of the target. Similarly, if the target is a spirit who is materialized, I do not lose dice for my attempt to shoot him.

To be specific, this doesn't mention auras or forms whatsoever. Just that armor doesn't prevent spellcasting LOS targeting from working.

Which you need to do for mana spells.

Not arguing that.

Just saying that a rule lawyer can point out that it doesn't say that auras are visible through it, only that it doesn't prevent LOS casting. I don't necessarily agree with it, but the argument could be made that it blocks an aura.

You cannot spell target an aura anyhow. You spell target an astral form while on the astral. I've always used the idea that an astral form basicly mirrors the real one, clothes and all. Mostly so I don't have games with the astral being one giant nudest colony. So in my games the clothing is just as much a part of their form as they are. Your game may differ.

I agree with the idea that an aura/form should be visible via LOS except when covered in something INTENDED to cover it, like a GM created magic compound or whatnot. I think that's what the RAI is of what you quoted. Just pointing out the limitations given it's choice of vocabulary.

Context helps. That statement is within the part of the rules explaining targeting, which in turn is in the context of mana and physical spells.

If you require that context and all items are explicitly stated in each single rule statement you are going to end up with a rather large document.

Incorrect tagz...

If the mage is PERCEIVING (not projecting). He's active on the physical plane.

In order to target a spell using astral perception, he must be able to see his target's aura. The logical conclusion, is if even the most bulky and concealing armor like MOPP gear will not conceal the aura from being seen and targetted. (though unanswered in this is now I'm curious if it would stop normal LOS casting while not perceiving).

If he was projecting, he wouldn't be able to for one reason for sure. Spells cannot cross the astral/physical boundary. I don't think it stops him from targetting the mundane w/ the mana spell... only it has no effect. You can target a masking magician while he's percieving, even though you can only see his aura and not his astral form.

Here's a practical implication of this... you have a ghoul/vamp other awakened critter. It's masking you know he's in the crowd but you don't know where. As a mage you can cast an astral plane mana-ball targetting all the auras in it. Most people won't notice anything, however since the ghoul is dual-natured and active on the astral (though hidden)... he would be the only one to take damage from it. (or another astrally percieving mage in the crowd if you're unlucky).

I'm not saying this is wrong, I'm saying it's got room for interpretation.

You cannot target an aura on the astral. You target an astral form on the astral.

p183 SR4A
...
A magician in the physical world may only cast spells on targets that are there in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted).
...

I'm not discussing about forms. I'm talking about seeing auras through armor. Maybe you've been saying auras when you meant forms. If you've been confusing those two, it might be why you're not seeing my point.

I've been saying, there is room in the interpretation for the rule:
P. 160 Street Magic, under LOS targeting rules

"Note that full body
armor does not “conceal” the person within and prevent them
from being targeted."

By context, as Dire pointed out, we can assume this includes both physical, astral, and metaplanar spellcasting. As we can target a FORM in the astral we can assume that all forms are included in this rule, and by inference we can say you can see an astral FORM despite the heaviest of armor.

What we can't assume is auras. Since you cannot target by an aura this rule doesn't have anything to do with them as this is a targeting rule, not a vision rule. It's a bigger leap. Not necessarily the wrong leap, but still, room for interpretation.

Also consider the wording in p112 under Auras
...
While clothes and other non-living objects are often outshone by the brightness of the wearer's armor,
...

It uses the word "often" instead of "always". This means that there are times that the aura might NOT be brighter then the shadows of the clothing and also that the shadows of the clothing might be as bright as the aura itself.


Personally, I agree for the most part that armor shouldn't block auras, I'd only allow such a thing in a fully enclosed suit with armor 16 or higher. I don't think it would make much difference anyhow. First off, you can't spell target an aura, so no change there. Second, I don't see anywhere in the text it mentioning that aura's are EASIER to see then a shadow, just that an aura is CLEARER, as in you can see the details. I see contrast between auras and shadows helping the test, but nothing saying the spirit gets more dice for looking for an aura or less for seeing a shadow. A moving shadow shouldn't be any harder to see then a moving aura, just lacking detail but retaining the humanoid shape. I'd think that would be suspicious to a spirit since humanoid's tend to have auras.

I don't see letting heavy armor block an aura as having any real tangible benefits other then hurting an assessing test to learn info about a target. That's not much. And I'd totally allow a projecting mage to stick his head into the helm and see the aura that way, so even that isn't much if you go by that reasoning.

Here I would have to disagree. You quoted ""Note that full body armor does not “conceal” the person within and prevent them from being targeted." I would have to say that if the armor blocked the aura, then it is concealing the person.

Also on seeing auras vs. shadows, So I would have to conclude that since shadows are gray and auras are vibrant and colorful, then they would be easier to see than shadows.

But you're hiding something that can't be targeted anyhow, so this need not apply. It SHOULD by all logic, but we're making an assumption based on nothing more then ANOTHER assumption that anytime you could see a form for you would HAVE to see the aura for if it left the astral plane. I've never encountered anything that said this is a necessity, just the norm.

As for the second part, in terms of sneaking, there is no dicepool difference inherent with observing a shadow and an aura. That was what I was getting at. A GM may decide different, but by RAW there's nothing saying that shadows are hard to see.

BTW, it's fun being Devil's Advocate n_n

* several edits for atrocious spelling

I'll have to re-read some of that...

Though tagz... I'd submit that you may be reading too much into that one line.


While clothes and other non-living items are often outshone by the ... aura.

I can think of examples where a non-living item would outshine. It is somehow magical. A high force magical item could very well outshine a living entity (especially if it's an artifact). By definition, non-living items don't 'shine/glow' on the astral at all unless they're somehow magical or living. IE: someone wearing some wierd living plant outfit, or who has had their clothes possessed by a spirit.

All it takes is to turn an always into an often (or nearly always)... is to think of a single exception like the above.

Maybe if someone is in overflow on death's door... their aura is very weak and hard to make out.

Yeah, but the whole point of discussion is:

A- Objects provide cover on both physical and astral planes.
B- Full armor does not provide total cover to you aura.
C- Which begs the question, how far does you have to be from an object so you aura won't "overlap" it?

Because if even a thin glass can block astral beings from seeing you, how far do you have to be from it for this to happen?

Basically if I can make myself unseen hinding inside of a cardboard box, why cant I be unseen using a full body armor or suit?

I know. I've been saying I'm doing that. n_n

I find it fun to exercise creative rule interpretation. I'm having a ball discussing this with you.

Nope, we know it doesn't prevent LOS spellcasting and you can't LOS spellcast at an aura. So, doesn't mean it can't hide an aura since it's not included. n_n

You can use an aura to "spot" a location for an area spell, etc, but you can't target via an aura.

So? Does it mean that full body suits and armors hide/conceal someone's aura?

Doesn't mean it does, doesn't mean it doesn't. The ruling on this is likely going to come down to a GM judgment call. n_n

If I was the GM, I would rule unless your non-living material completely provides cover to all living material, the aura can be spotted and also mentioned would be something on the astral sticking its perception through the non-living material/shadow to see if there is anything living inside. Just saying, if LoS is what you are after, complete cover should prevent it:

So, ghillie suit with mask? Biohazard/radiation suit? Full body armor? Full body camoflage suit? Full body Diving suit with full respirator mask?

In other words, not normal clothing in that normal clothing doesn't go for a full seal, correct?

I would say how well your stuff covers you is a Disguise test. Good enough perception recognizes the shadow shape or where you missed a bit of skin.

---

But in regards to Infiltration, I had a thought when I remembered someone mentioned before auras get all their fluctuating colors from the meta-humans' moods and thoughts, correct? Would anyone allow, that someone's aura might be different when they are trying to be all stealthy than when they are not?

I would let someone of a high enough skill and talent if their roll was good enough to describe it like they try to keep their aura shining not quite so bright even if they do have a break in their cover, like controlling their heart beat, breathing and keeping their thoughts focused on the task at hand in a particularly steady mood, thus harder to perceive from among the shadows (I say among because if they have 100% cover, the observer doesn't even have a chance to see it because no LoS) for the astral observer.

---

I am still getting the sense, part of the confusion behind this is the confusion between the separation and overlap of Infiltration and Disguise.

So I am thinking, if I ever make a ninja, burglar, or sniper, I better make sure they are good at Infiltration and Disguise, as they seem to be synergistic for a game of Hide & Seek. Hmm, better throw Perception in there too, then some athletic stuff insertion stuff and lock bypass stuff ... then some knowledge of enviroments, structural or natural... *starts pondering the SR various versions of SR assassin again...*

Just me, but I'd say your astral aura extends probably 6"-12" from your body... Generally I'd say anything non-bulky which doesn't impede you for wearing it won't cover it up.

So if that cardboard box is a refrigator box, sure... otherwise... not really.

Just put a cardbox in a cardbox with cardbox spacers.