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Any ideas on ways to be able to summon the biggest baddest spirits? I was playing around with ways to summon a Greater Form Force 18 Spirit (my magic rating is 9). I can't do it.

-------------------------------------
A F18 GF Spirit will (on average):

Roll 12 hits on summoning attempt. 24 Points physical drain damage.

Then try binding him. 12 hits again. A nice tidy 36 boxes damage! It is out of my league. But it got me to wondering how powerful of a Spirit a "Spirit Master" character could summon.

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My character has:

Summoning DP: 21

Magic: 9
Summoning: 6
Spirit Specialization +2
Spirit Mentor +2
Magic Drug (forgot the name) +2 Summoning

Drain Resistance DP: 27
Charisma: 13
Willpower: 9
Centering: 5


Last, but not least, how many physical boxes can he take without going unconscious helps out here. I have possession based - Voodo character. I have channeling, so when my F9 GF spirit mounts me he gives me a good body bump. When all is said and done I can take 16 physical boxes and stay conscious. For you non-possession mages, have a mage friend sustain a Body increase spell on you.

By the way, don't take this post to seriously. Clearly this is unbalanced and I would not allow this in a game I ran. It just got me to thinking of HOW could it be done.
.
Udoshi
You may ALWAYS burn edge to wave away an epic amount of drain like that. Should you succeed in summoning a spirit like that, I seriously doubt you want it goint free-willed at force 18 when the mage who summoned it keels over.
AngelisStorm
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Feb 15 2010, 10:00 PM) *
You may ALWAYS burn edge to wave away an epic amount of drain like that. Should you succeed in summoning a spirit like that, I seriously doubt you want it goint free-willed at force 18 when the mage who summoned it keels over.


"Wave away?" You should be a bit more specific on what your refering to.

Anyway, a Power Focus or a Summoning Focus will add X number of dice to the attempt. +1 for summoning skill at 7. Nice stats though.

Frankly, at F18 Great Form, your getting up there with "I AM SATAN, AND I WAS HAVING DINNER MORTAL!"
Summerstorm
Pretty much no one summons a rating 18 spirit... and a great one. Nah

I have build something weird here:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...c=28486&hl=

It was the best i could do with 400 points, i think.
Udoshi
QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Feb 15 2010, 09:11 PM) *
"Wave away?" You should be a bit more specific on what your refering to.


Edge. Specifically, burning a permanent point. Is it just me, or does nobody seem to realize what it can do beyond letting you reroll stuff? Its -good-

A mage with an edge of 3 or above is -ALWAYS- capable of ruining someone's day with a maximum overcast spell or spirit, if they really, really need to. One for the spellcasting test, and one to deal with the drain.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Feb 15 2010, 09:48 PM) *
Edge. Specifically, burning a permanent point. Is it just me, or does nobody seem to realize what it can do beyond letting you reroll stuff? Its -good-

A mage with an edge of 3 or above is -ALWAYS- capable of ruining someone's day with a maximum overcast spell or spirit, if they really, really need to. One for the spellcasting test, and one to deal with the drain.
This opens up the never-ending debate: If the summoner can burn Edge to summon a ridiculously high power spirit, higher than he really should be able to handle, what is to prevent the spirit from burning Edge to stick it to the insolent mortal? Many, long arguments have happened here on DS regarding this issue.
The Jopp
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Feb 16 2010, 07:41 AM) *
This opens up the never-ending debate: If the summoner can burn Edge to summon a ridiculously high power spirit, higher than he really should be able to handle, what is to prevent the spirit from burning Edge to stick it to the insolent mortal? Many, long arguments have happened here on DS regarding this issue.


The difference I think is that when a player burns a point of edge he burns a specific amount of actual Karma that he has to regain in order to raise his edge attribute again - This is also exponentially more expensive since they burn the highest value of edge first (let's assume Edge of 6...)

Now...what was the cost for raising the edge attribute from 5 to 6...oh, and since he does it TWICE it will have to be raised from 4-5 and then 5-6.

The spirit has Edge by default of summoning it and risks nothing...
LurkerOutThere
And yet just because you can do something doesn't eman you should or that the oposition won't do the same. Furthermore you would have no complaint if it used that edge it has by default of summoning it while persuing your interests.
The Jopp
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Feb 16 2010, 09:25 AM) *
And yet just because you can do something doesn't eman you should or that the oposition won't do the same. Furthermore you would have no complaint if it used that edge it has by default of summoning it while persuing your interests.


I know what you mean but you get a very annoying problem in that case.

If the summoner “class” get to have his every whim countermanded by the summoned spirits edge why the hell would I want to play one?

That’s like having your spellcaster getting argument from his spells – or agents working against the hacker all the time.

Edge should be used in dire circumstances like WHEN you have to summon a F18 spirit. If the mage does it EVERY day then by all means let the spirit get fed up and use edge.

If the mage tries to summon a spirit that goes against his tradition (summoning a toxic version of his faith) then use spirits edge to resist all the time – or let the spirit be summoned and then attack the summoner.
W@geMage
The important part of the rule is this => The character must be capable of carrying out the action—you can’t buy a critical success for something you have no hope of achieving.

Work out with your GM what that means, as different people get different meanings from that phrase.

As a GM I would be very hesitant to allow Edge burning on an action like that.
Because binding a Spirit like that has multiple rolls that must take place.

1:Summoning + taking drain => get services for net hits
2:Binding + surviving drain => get add. services for net hits

How will you handle this when burning Edge?
The Jopp
QUOTE (W@geMage @ Feb 16 2010, 11:43 AM) *
The important part of the rule is this => The character must be capable of carrying out the action—you can’t buy a critical success for something you have no hope of achieving.


A very good rule of thumb - edge is not a godlike attribute that allows you to do anything.
AngelisStorm
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Feb 16 2010, 12:48 AM) *
Edge. Specifically, burning a permanent point. Is it just me, or does nobody seem to realize what it can do beyond letting you reroll stuff? Its -good-

A mage with an edge of 3 or above is -ALWAYS- capable of ruining someone's day with a maximum overcast spell or spirit, if they really, really need to. One for the spellcasting test, and one to deal with the drain.



And the previous responces, Udoshi, is why I asked for you to be more specific. Because I've read some of those endless arguements about what edge can and cannot do.

And F18 Great Form "SATAN" (capitals for dramatic emphasis) has a lot more edge than even Mr. Lucky.

I'm not normally a huge fan of "and the spirit slaps the impudent mortal down," but if this example hasn't cross the line, it's pretty dang close (only because I'm not sure where exactly the "NO" line is in this case. F16? 18? 20?)
The Jopp
QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Feb 16 2010, 12:22 PM) *
I'm not normally a huge fan of "and the spirit slaps the impudent mortal down," but if this example hasn't cross the line, it's pretty dang close (only because I'm not sure where exactly the "NO" line is in this case. F16? 18? 20?)


For this I would recommend the following houserule (just made up):

A spirit will never use edge against their summoner unless the summoner has LESS magic rating than the spirit.

For each point of Magic difference the spirit is allowed to use an equal amount of edge to break free, resist and slap down the impudent mortal.

If a ritual is used the mages pool their magic rating in order to control the creature - allowing multiple low level mages to summon the dread lord...

So, a spirit with X3 the amount of a very good summoner would be able to use around 12 edge points - just to stop such sillyness - which also helps ritual magic and teamwork summoning.
AngelisStorm
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Feb 16 2010, 07:29 AM) *
If a ritual is used the mages pool their magic rating in order to control the creature - allowing multiple low level mages to summon the dread lord...


I just really liked that line. smile.gif


I wish they would fix Banishing. It's sad it's such a (mostly) useless skill. And it's made worse because Mystic Adepts can only use the portion of their magic rating dedicated to spellcasting for Banishing tests. frown.gif Which is really lame.
The Jopp
QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Feb 16 2010, 12:33 PM) *
I just really liked that line. smile.gif


You might want to take notice that the spirit is not allowed to use edge to stop itself from being summoned and break free - but there is nothing stopping it from using edge to refuse doing things, or twist it to its own plan.

A rating 18 spirit has a logic and intuition of 18 - about TWICE the intelligence and intuition of Einstein and most likely most dragons.

IT WILL KNOW YOUR SOUL.
Thanee
Where's your problem?

With a Drain Resistance DP of 27 you have 9 hits on average. Spending a point of Edge to reroll means another 6 hits. That's 15 hits against a DV of 24 (summoning, not binding). Enough to stay awake even with an average Body (and thus 10 boxes of Physical Condition Monitor). With a Body of 9 (and thus 13 boxes of Physical Condition Monitor), i.e. Body 5 natural and a +4 Improve Attribute spell (nothing outrageous at that level for sure), there's still some leeway for rolling below average. There is a certain risk involved, since the variance is fairly high there.

Of course, you need one net hit on the summoning, too, but that seems equally likely.

Bye
Thanee
pbangarth
The Summonning Drain for F18 spirit is equal to twice the hits, which will fall somewhere around 6, giving a DV of 12. The OP was about a Great Form spirit, so we have to go on to Binding and Invoking.

To Bind the spirit, it gets 36 dice, giving about 12 hits, which doubles to 24 DV. Invoking the Great form adds 50% to this, so the Drain for Binding a Great Form F18 spirit is 36 DV. Unless you have a dice pool of 36 to resist Drain, this is an impossibility without Burning Edge. Even with enough dice and Edge rerolling, most cases of any character recently out of chargen cannot do it. So burning Edge is still against the rules.

Even if it is squeakily possible to get the required number of hits to survive, you are at the point where it is incredibly stupid and rash to risk it unless you burn Edge. It is incredibly stupid and rash because of the power differential between the summoner and the spirit. In such a case, many argue the GM is right to do the nasty to the player. Those who argue that it is unfair to burn Edge for NPCs because NPC Edge is for all intents and purposes an unlimited resource for the GM, whereas the player has a very limited and costly resource, have a point. But, this situation arises only when the player/PC wishes to overreach himself.

I have no sympathy for such a player. I may, as GM, let it happen just so I can jerk the player around with a Great Form being that is three or four times as smart as he is. (eg., area effect Engulf that does not avoid the PCs party.)
DireRadiant
Make sure to perform the summoning in a location aspected to the summoning Mage.
karsh
Hi dumpshock!

What about the Sacrificing Metamagic? I don't know how "evil" your character is, but you could use it to additionally reduce the drain.

One slightly off topic question:
How do you get Willpower 9?
I assume Dareadrenaline, Exceptional Attribute and Genetic Enhancement since I don't know any other ways to improve this attribute?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Feb 16 2010, 10:20 AM) *
Make sure to perform the summoning in a location aspected to the summoning Mage.


The only problem with that is that if the area is aspected to the Mage's tradition, by default, the area is also aspected to teh spirit involved... does not seem like a win-win situation to me... Especially as the spirit will get to use those bonus dice as well as the mage does...

Summoning at Force 18 is pretty ludicrous though, as even at his base ability, the spirit is generally throwing as many, or more, dice as the summoner is... not a good recipe for success in my opinion... and heaven help the caster if the spirit gains more successes than the summoner (yes he could roll poorly, but he could also roll exceptionally well... I remember our mage summoning a Spirit once... the spirit gained 10 successes for 20dv in damage... was not a pretty sight)...

Keep the Faith
JoelHalpern
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Feb 16 2010, 12:20 PM) *
Make sure to perform the summoning in a location aspected to the summoning Mage.


Yes, an aspected location will help the summoning.
But will it help the Binding. The Spirit rolls F*2 dice to resist binding.
The summoner gets the aspect bonus for the location.
But the Spirit is present during the binding, I think.
Therefore, it adds the aspect to its force. So it adds twice the aspect to its dice to resist force.

Hence, in terms of binding, it appears that the aspected location actually makes it even harder to bind the spirit.

(How the player is going to succeed against 36 dice from the spirit to resist binding, even if can cope with the drain, is another question.)

Yours,
Joel M. Halpern

PS: About 1/3 of the time or so the spirit will roll well enough that a F18 Great Form will present the summoner with 42 or more drain. Good luck sir.
Dakka Dakka
Doesn't Aspected Background Count only add to Dice Pools involving Magic? Since the Spirit Rolls Force or Force*2 It wouldn't get a bonus.

The other thing is, do spirits have a tradition? I don't know. If they do this leans very much in the direction that spirits are an expression of the summoning mage's mind, whereas the rest of the book seems to lean more in the direction of them being separate entities which are summoned (read called) by the mage.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Feb 16 2010, 04:59 AM) *
I know what you mean but you get a very annoying problem in that case.

If the summoner “class” get to have his every whim countermanded by the summoned spirits edge why the hell would I want to play one?


This is irrelevant because "summoner" isn't a "class." Making your character into a one trick pony doesn't give you carte blanche to summon tremendously powerful spirits without fear of the spirit using the stats they are given by the RAW-- you build your runner and you take your chances, just like everyone else. Run of the mill spirits probably won't put up much of a fight when it comes to being summoned, but a force 18 monstrosity? At my table, it's going to depend a lot on context, tradition and how much you've been treating your spirits like the unpredictable NPCs that they are as opposed to treating them like expendable assets. If a shaman player wants to exchange tasks with a Force 18 Spirit in order to protect what is considered sacred ground by his tradition, that's one thing. But if the same shaman is just summoning the same spirit so that his buddy the Hermetic can try and play pokemon and use it for some other purpose? Things might get messy.

In any case, super high force spirits are something of a red herring regardless. Force 8+ uber spirits are hardly necessary to be effective summoner. I've played more than a few summoners in my time, and I've found that the most effective way to go is often just keeping a stable of bound Force 2-3 Great Forms with plenty of services available for utility/light combat and to summon the occasional force 5+ spirit on the fly when things get pretty heavy. Magicians are versatile and powerful even without the ability to conjure spirits capable of spanking a "regular" dragon.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (JoelHalpern @ Feb 16 2010, 01:24 PM) *
Yes, an aspected location will help the summoning.
But will it help the Binding. The Spirit rolls F*2 dice to resist binding.
The summoner gets the aspect bonus for the location.
But the Spirit is present during the binding, I think.
Therefore, it adds the aspect to its force. So it adds twice the aspect to its dice to resist force.

Hence, in terms of binding, it appears that the aspected location actually makes it even harder to bind the spirit.

(How the player is going to succeed against 36 dice from the spirit to resist binding, even if can cope with the drain, is another question.)

Yours,
Joel M. Halpern

PS: About 1/3 of the time or so the spirit will roll well enough that a F18 Great Form will present the summoner with 42 or more drain. Good luck sir.


Don't forget how long Binding takes. Will the spirit still be around? smile.gif

Summoning and Binding are two distinct steps with different factors. You can always change locations to suit each step.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Feb 16 2010, 09:51 PM) *
Don't forget how long Binding takes. Will the spirit still be around? smile.gif
IIRC Binding is not subject to the "until next sunrise/sunset" rule. Even if it were, you could always project to north of the arctic circle or south of the antarctic circle. There you won't have sunrises/sunsets for quite some time

pbangarth
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Feb 16 2010, 01:58 PM) *
IIRC Binding is not subject to the "until next sunrise/sunset" rule. Even if it were, you could always project to north of the arctic circle or south of the antarctic circle. There you won't have sunrises/sunsets for quite some time
But your projection will be limited to a number of hours equal to your Magic rating.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Feb 16 2010, 04:30 PM) *
But your projection will be limited to a number of hours equal to your Magic rating.



Well, just fly there. Binding a F18 spirit isn't something you do on the spur of the moment.

But yes, per the rules it is beside the point because once you start the binding the spirit is in suspended animation or some other crap and does not disappear at sunrise/sunset. I dislike the rule for 2 reasons. I don't need F12+ spirits to be any easier to summon and 2 I kind of like the idea of AAA megacorps having north/southpole magical summoning labs for when they need to bring down the magical pain.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Feb 16 2010, 10:30 PM) *
But your projection will be limited to a number of hours equal to your Magic rating.

Woops, forgot about that. Just board a plane that flies synchronous with the earth's rotation then.
Whipstitch
I think I'd rule that the spirit nukes your sorry ass and explains his actions with "It's sundown somewhere, baby."
Stahlseele
Don't summon anything bigger than your head.
Whipstitch
The funny part is that I'm actually pretty lenient about magic with my players. They can make up pretty much whatever tradition they want and I'll roll with it, for example. But I'm just not buying that a spirit's going to stick around longer because you're chasing the horizon.
Dakka Dakka
You are right, the plane is a bit of rules-lawyering, but physically being in a place where the sun doesn't rise/set should work.
Semerkhet
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Feb 16 2010, 03:59 PM) *
Woops, forgot about that. Just board a plane that flies synchronous with the earth's rotation then.

I am ashamed to say that this is exactly the sort of rules-lawyering that a friend and I used to bother Paul Hume with over the embryonic internet (i.e. Genie bbs) shortly after the SR1 Grimoire came out. I was very young, but it's still embarrassing to think back on. Mr. Hume was gracious enough to reply to our atrocious abuse of his magic rules in a gently diplomatic way that made us realize that we were being asshats. I look back on that exchange of messages as a turning point in my maturation as a gamer.

I realize that the OP stated clearly that this was merely a thought experiment, but given the direction of the subsequent conversation, I thought my anecdote could turn out to be germane.

Edit: I still have my original copy of the Grimoire that Mr. Hume signed at GenCon. It said, "Magic! It's better than a sharp athame in the eye." After he signed it, I had to go look up what an athame was.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Feb 16 2010, 07:46 PM) *
You are right, the plane is a bit of rules-lawyering, but physically being in a place where the sun doesn't rise/set should work.


I just kinda hand wave things as "roughly 12 hours," to be honest. For one thing, I think the sunset-sunrise thing doesn't necessarily make all that much sense for some traditions and regions. I guess I just don't see how people from the arctic circle hit the jackpot in terms of services as some kind of cosmic compensation for not being able to get a decent tan some parts of the year. I would think that at some point the spirits would have struck a better deal than that.
the_real_elwood
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Feb 16 2010, 06:49 PM) *
I just kinda hand wave things as "roughly 12 hours," to be honest. For one thing, I think the sunset-sunrise thing doesn't necessarily make all that much sense for some traditions and regions. I guess I just don't see how people from the arctic circle hit the jackpot in terms of services as some kind of cosmic compensation for not being able to get a decent tan some parts of the year. I would think that at some point the spirits would have struck a better deal than that.


I don't know how applicable it is anymore, but in Target:Wastelands it talks about summoning spirits above the arctic circle, and that if the time and location is right to get the midnight sun, that spirits will stay around until the sun actually sets.
map
Coming back to OP, did some more crunching/munchkin-ing...

To have a 50/50 chance to summon a GF spirit you need double the number DP than force of Spirit you wish to summon. So, for a GF F18 spirit a 30 DP in summoning and binding gives you less than 50/50 chance, but still do-able in a few attempts. Based on the OP here is what I could do to get a 30 DP in both skills (munchkin alert):

Magic 9 + Skill 6 = 15DP

(Magic Compound, forgot the name) +2
Geomancy to someone on your team with Astral Hazing: +4 (I am making the assumption that the aspected count gives the summoner a DP bump, and does not affect the spirit, this could be debated)
Power Focus: +5 (Maybe a spirit focus instead? Would that help with drain?)
Spirit Mentor: +2
Skill Specializations: +2

30 DP for summoning/binding.

Are there any cheaper ways to bump the Summoning/Binding DPs I am overlooking?

Now what is the minimum drain DP I could get away with to summon a GF 18 spirit...

(Yes, this is over the top)
The Jopp
Let's also assume an edge pool of 6. He uses Edge and gains +6D6 to the summoning roll and the most important: EXPLODING DICE.

He should also use edge for drain with edge and gain exploding dice.

Since it is a F18 and a veritable force of nature in itself I would suggest using the entire edge pool for rerolls and bonus dice.
dirkformica
Quickie Pixie Summoner
Attributes:
Bod 1, Agil 3, Rea 4, Str 1, Cha 7, Int 4, Log 3, Will 7, Ess 6, Init 8, Pass 1, Edge 4, Magic 6
Skills:
Assensing 2, Counterspelling 3, Dodge 1 (Ranged), Infiltration 1 (Urban,) Perception 1 (Hearing,) Spellcasting 4, Summoning 6 (Man,) Binding 4 (Man.)
Positive Qualities:
Magician, Mentor Spirit (Dog or something with Spirits of Man,) Restricted Gear (Power Focus.)
Negative Qualities:
Addiction (Mild,) Allergy (Uncommon, Moderate,) Weak Immune System, Sensitive System.
Gear:
Power Focus Rating 4, Sustaining Focus Rating 3. Binding materials for force 9 spirit, 50thousandish in other gear.

Summoning Spirit of Man:
6skill+6magic+4power+2spec+2mentor = 20 dice (average 6 hits, 10 after spending edge for rerolls)

Binding SoM:
4skill+6magic+4power+2spec+2mentor = 18 dice (average 6 hits, 10 after spending edge for rerolls)

Drain:
Base = 7cha+7will = 14 (average 4 hits, 6 with rerolls.)
After you summon and bind a force 7+ spirit of man that casts Improve Attribute (Cha and Will) = 7cha+4to6+7will+4to6 = 22-24 (24 is max racial stats which gives 8 average hits, 13 with rerolls.)

When Summoning and Binding always cast Shapechange to gain +6 to body, sustain with focus. First summon will cast and sustain Improved drain attributes to aid in surviving the Binding test. Spend edge at all four steps if necessary (1 summon, 2 drain, 3 bind, 4 drain.) You only need 1 net hit on the Binding test, so you really only need to make sure you get good net hits on the Summoning test so take your time to get a good one. Possession tradition is helpful here since you can have the summoned spirit possess you for an added Body boost.

When looking at max force ratings, if you are doing this in downtime, you’ll generally be looking for scenarios where you can stage down the damage to 1 less than your physical condition monitor. It won’t matter if you take a lot of damage since you’re just looking at either success or death. So with the Shapechanged Pixie, max damage after all is said and done needs to be less than 11 since it’ll have 12 physical in whatever form it takes. If you play the averages then you can stage down 13 damage. So generally 12 hits from the spirit and you can live. Again, playing averages that means summoning a force 36 spirit, or binding a force 18. Just remember neither side will always be hitting those averages so you can still reduce yourself to a tiny, cute smear on the wall. And of course you can't summon anything more than double your magic.
Hagga
QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Feb 16 2010, 04:11 AM) *
"Wave away?" You should be a bit more specific on what your refering to.

Anyway, a Power Focus or a Summoning Focus will add X number of dice to the attempt. +1 for summoning skill at 7. Nice stats though.

Frankly, at F18 Great Form, your getting up there with "I AM SATAN, AND I WAS HAVING DINNER MORTAL!"

Not reaaally. It's sort of.. ever play nWoD? Me either, but I flipped through the books. Think rank 3. Certainly enough to ruin the day of anyone and everything it crosses paths with, spirit stats are crazy.

Satan's waiting until the mana level gets high enough before he rocks up in his GT Firebird and starts taking names, anyway.
Muspellsheimr
Burning Edge is a wonderous thing when breaking the game with conjury.

As noted, you can only Burn Edge when you are capable of carrying out the action - it makes no mention of requiring you being capable of successfully achieving the result, only that you have "hope" of doing so. Combined with the previous section of the sentence, it is (mostly) clearly refering to anything you are capable of within the rules of the game.

For example, you cannot Burn Edge for a Critical Success firing a gun beyond it's maximum range. You cannot Burn Edge for a Critical Success jumping higher than the maximum distance allowed by your Agility.

You can, however, Burn Edge for a Critical Success on any opposed test (as long as you can default on it, or have at least 1 rank, or is not linked to a skill). You can also Burn Edge to successfully (Critically) resist any ammount of damage from a single source - including Drain.


In conclusion, I can create a 400 BP character, ~10 Karma past character generation, who can successfully summon and bind a Force 30 Great Form spirit. I advise you read the rules on Nosferatu.

~30 Karma past character generation, it is a Blood spirit. And it is quite possible that Burning Edge on Drain will not be necessary (kill 6-8 people as part of the binding with Sacrificing; if I remember correctly, the trick is figuring out how to do so yourself with melee in a single Complex Action - hint: it can be done).
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Feb 18 2010, 11:44 AM) *
~30 Karma past character generation, it is a Blood spirit.
AFAIK Blood Spirits can only be conjured by the Twisted. Those powers are generally not available for PCs.

QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Feb 18 2010, 11:44 AM) *
And it is quite possible that Burning Edge on Drain will not be necessary (kill 6-8 people as part of the binding with Sacrificing; if I remember correctly, the trick is figuring out how to do so yourself with melee in a single Complex Action - hint: it can be done).
Again not for PCs. But with a number of unconscious or otherwise surprised victims, you could split your melee DP a couple of times. Or are you thinking about something else?
W@geMage
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Feb 18 2010, 06:44 AM) *
As noted, you can only Burn Edge when you are capable of carrying out the action - it makes no mention of requiring you being capable of successfully achieving the result, only that you have "hope" of doing so. Combined with the previous section of the sentence, it is (mostly) clearly refering to anything you are capable of within the rules of the game.
Achieving and successfully achieving are the same thing. It's a tautology.
If you achieve something, it was successful.

If you need 5 hits to achieve an action you don't have any hope to succeed unless you have at least 5 dice.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (W@geMage @ Feb 18 2010, 01:27 PM) *
Achieving and successfully achieving are the same thing. It's a tautology.
If you achieve something, it was successful.
In a binary problem this is correct, but spirit summoning and drain resistance aren't such situations. There are many possibilities and degrees of success. The F18 spirit can achieve between zero and 18 hits (without Edge), so the summoner would need between one and 19 hits to successfully summon the spirit. So would he need a dice pool of 1 because of the off-chance that the spirit won't roll a single hit to be able to burn Edge for a critical success or would he need a dice pool of 19, because it is possible that the spirit will get 18 hits? Same goes for the drain resistance. Does the summoner need a dice pool large enough to completely soak the possible damage or only the actual damage, or is it enough to have a dicepool that can possibly generate enough hits to keeop him from dying, again possible or actual damage?

QUOTE (W@geMage @ Feb 18 2010, 01:27 PM) *
If you need 5 hits to achieve an action you don't have any hope to succeed unless you have at least 5 dice.
On success test this is quite straight-forward, but not so on resisted rolls.
W@geMage
You're right about that.

You could always roll the Spirit dice first and then decide if the mage has a chance at success and thus allow burning Edge.
Makes it risky enough in case the Spirit has a decent dice day.
darthmord
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Feb 18 2010, 05:44 AM) *
Burning Edge is a wonderous thing when breaking the game with conjury.

As noted, you can only Burn Edge when you are capable of carrying out the action - it makes no mention of requiring you being capable of successfully achieving the result, only that you have "hope" of doing so. Combined with the previous section of the sentence, it is (mostly) clearly refering to anything you are capable of within the rules of the game.

For example, you cannot Burn Edge for a Critical Success firing a gun beyond it's maximum range. You cannot Burn Edge for a Critical Success jumping higher than the maximum distance allowed by your Agility.

You can, however, Burn Edge for a Critical Success on any opposed test (as long as you can default on it, or have at least 1 rank, or is not linked to a skill). You can also Burn Edge to successfully (Critically) resist any ammount of damage from a single source - including Drain.


In conclusion, I can create a 400 BP character, ~10 Karma past character generation, who can successfully summon and bind a Force 30 Great Form spirit. I advise you read the rules on Nosferatu.

~30 Karma past character generation, it is a Blood spirit. And it is quite possible that Burning Edge on Drain will not be necessary (kill 6-8 people as part of the binding with Sacrificing; if I remember correctly, the trick is figuring out how to do so yourself with melee in a single Complex Action - hint: it can be done).


Aren't you still limited to 2x Magic in terms of Maximum Force of the spirit?
pbangarth
QUOTE (darthmord @ Feb 18 2010, 10:11 AM) *
Aren't you still limited to 2x Magic in terms of Maximum Force of the spirit?
Yes, you are.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (W@geMage @ Feb 18 2010, 08:47 AM) *
You're right about that.

You could always roll the Spirit dice first and then decide if the mage has a chance at success and thus allow burning Edge.
Makes it risky enough in case the Spirit has a decent dice day.


Even if you say that, on an absurdly awesome roll by the force 18 spirit like 36 successes and it is a great form so you are soaking over 100 boxes. Is that impossible?? Nope if I were to use edge I could theoretically get over 100 exploding 6's. So when I burn edge isn't it withing the realm of possible?
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Feb 18 2010, 06:02 AM) *
Again not for PCs. But with a number of unconscious or otherwise surprised victims, you could split your melee DP a couple of times. Or are you thinking about something else?


Technically PCs can learn blood magic. I sure as hell wouldn't allow it, but it is not restricted from PCs.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Feb 18 2010, 06:25 PM) *
Technically PCs can learn blood magic. I sure as hell wouldn't allow it, but it is not restricted from PCs.
Only if that is within the scope of the campaign and in the GM's intention:
QUOTE ('Street Magic p. 138')
While many shadowrunners might qualify as borderline sociopaths and psychotics, roleplaying a truly demented individual with Awakened power at his fingertips is beyond the scope of the Shadowrun rules and the team nature of a typical game.

[...]

Additionally, the twisted gain access to obscure arts and unique metamagic techniques that can be potentially unbalancing in a player’s hands; gamemasters should consider carefully before allowing them into the game. If they are made available, they should remain rare. Finding an appropriate instructor should be a difficult, harrowing quest for the character.

QUOTE ('Street Magic p. 139')
It is strongly advised that twisted metamagics remain the province of NPCs. Player characters should not have access to these powers unless the gamemaster allows them to become twisted.

Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Feb 18 2010, 12:52 PM) *
Only if that is within the scope of the campaign and in the GM's intention:


Well yes. The difference is in previous editions it just wasn't allowed, but hey if you want to house rule things go for it. In this edition it is allowed, but like everything the GM has to let it in. They just strongly advise for a GM not to let it in. So, it is technically allowed, but I sure as hell wont let it in as a GM.
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