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crizh
Yes asking for continual use of a specific power counts as one service ( per sunrise/set) but the intent of the rules is clear. If that is all you ask for that is all you get. If you ask a Spirit to perform a task and in the process it decides to use multiple continuous powers, Innate Spell: Heal, for example, then it still only costs one service.

The Spirit can't decide to run the clock out by choosing to be creative in how it performs a task. One request one service.

On the subject of the Possession the Spirit must possess someone or something to cast the spell so that doesn't eat any extra services. Specifying the manner in which it performs a task doesn't cost extra services but does prevent a hostile Spirit from being a pain in the arse.

There is a helpful section in the Digital Grimoire that deals with possession that spells this all out nicely.
Karoline
So "Go out and pick me up a pizza, then clean my room, then the attic, then get me a soda, then dig a hole in the back yard, then fill up any holes you might find in the back yard, then go get me another soda, then ....." is one request and thus one service?

Attack anything that threatens me physically is one service to get the spirit to fight for you for an entire sunrise/sunset for only one service?

Meh, I suppose this is just a case of agree to disagree based on if you want to rule-lawyer or role play.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 20 2010, 10:39 PM) *
So "Go out and pick me up a pizza, then clean my room, then the attic, then get me a soda, then dig a hole in the back yard, then fill up any holes you might find in the back yard, then go get me another soda, then ....." is one request and thus one service?
Not in my opinion, but clean up the house would be one service no matter how many individual tasks are needed.

QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 20 2010, 10:39 PM) *
Attack anything that threatens me physically is one service to get the spirit to fight for you for an entire sunrise/sunset for only one service?
Probably not, but the book says that defending the summoner (and possibly his allies) in one combat is one service and it does not matter if the spirit uses one or more of its powers.

BTW it is debatable if the aforementioned exploit works at all. I'm not sure if the spirit suffers the -2 for sustaining a spell. The description for Innate spells doesn't mention it (explicitly) nor does the section about how critter powers work.
The question is whether the -2 is a property of the spell or a property of the mage's inability to cope with constantly channeling mana.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Feb 20 2010, 03:34 PM) *
BTW it is debatable if the aforementioned exploit works at all. I'm not sure if the spirit suffers the -2 for sustaining a spell. The description for Innate spells doesn't mention it (explicitly) nor does the section about how critter powers work. The question is whether the -2 is a property of the spell or a property of the mage's inability to cope with constantly channeling mana.

QUOTE (SR4A page 293)
Sustained powers may be maintained over time at no effort or cost.
Because these powers are innate, the critter is not subject to any strain
or modifiers for keeping the effect going. Even taking damage will not
disrupt these powers’ ability to sustain. Also, line of sight does not
have to be maintained after the power takes hold of its target. Critters
may sustain a number of powers equal to their Magic at one time

QUOTE (SR4A page 296)
Innate Spell
Type: A • Action: Complex • Range: See Spell • Duration: per spell
A creature with the Innate Spell power has the instinctive ability
to cast one spell. The critter must possess the Spellcasting skill in order
to use the power effectively. Innate Spells cast by a critter are the same
as those cast by magicians, and magicians can use Counterspelling
against them as normal. Innate spells produce Drain as normal.
Critters and Spirits resist Drain with either Intuition or Charisma (at
the gamemaster’s discretion).
It would appear from the two excerpts from SR4A that the spirit does not suffer the sustaining penalty. At the same time, it would not be able to sustain more spells at once than its Force.
Orcus Blackweather
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Feb 16 2010, 04:42 AM) *
You might want to take notice that the spirit is not allowed to use edge to stop itself from being summoned and break free - but there is nothing stopping it from using edge to refuse doing things, or twist it to its own plan.

A rating 18 spirit has a logic and intuition of 18 - about TWICE the intelligence and intuition of Einstein and most likely most dragons.

IT WILL KNOW YOUR SOUL.

Ummm please quote page number for this? Spirit can use edge for any of its rolls. If I were a force 18 greatform, I might come just to see what idiot was summoning me, but you can bet that I would roll my 18 edge for the summoning.

At a certain point you are being stupid, summoning a force 18 is one of those times, and you should suffer for your stupidity.
Glyph
I think the most telling rules quote is from page 95 of Street Magic, emphasis mine:

QUOTE
A spirit is fully capable of performing the task "Please hand me a soda" without the expenditure of a service, although it may not be willing to if the spirit has a particularly strained relationship with the conjurer.

In other words, normally mages have some slack, so that they don't get nickeled and dimed on every little thing. But if they start trying to abuse it, then spirits will start getting pickier about what constitutes a "service". Karoline's example is pretty close to how a high Force spirit would react to someone attempting to abuse it in such a manner.

Also note that the mage's tradition will be a big factor in how spirits act or react. A Loa spirit might be fairly generous in how it fulfills its services, but only if the mage is respectful to it. Elementals might be slavishly obedient, but not show much initiative. Norse spirits might be easily offended, and require bribes to do services.
Whipstitch
One of the niggling issues with basing the validity of services on summoner-spirit relations, however, is the difference between traditions and reconciling spirit behavior with what the tradition says spirits are like. Black Magicians, Shamans and the more empirically minded traditions are all likely to treat their spirits in different ways, after all, particularly since hermetics and chaos magicians tend to view spirits less as "people" and more as mana constructs. That's why I tend to just base it more on force and how much attention the summoner is actively paying to the spirit. The volatility of mana and extremely powerful spirits is something that can cut across all traditions, after all.
Glyph
I think that part of the tradeoff involved in getting spirits that are less brainlessly literal about orders is that they will have more of a personality, with both the good and the bad that such entails. I think that the relationship a tradition has with spirits is often overlooked.

But what counts as abusing a spirit would cut across traditions, and be things such as using a bound spirit for spell binding, or attempting to get extremely broad or long-duration services from them with weaselly wording.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Feb 20 2010, 12:23 PM) *
i would say it would get you the spirit bane quality, but I'd say the rules are fairly clear that augmenting every meta-human in the room is one service.(though I could be misremembering) I think there is room to say its one service per X time period and not until I am done binding you. Also I'd say it can't sustain spells or perform services while you are trying to bind it in general. Since spirits are in a holding pattern until the binding is up even bypassing sunset/dawn time periods I'd say that the binding is an exclusive activity. It is not rules covered though so this would be a house rule.

It is a clear abusive exploit, but hey that is what this thread is about.


You could however tell the force 18 spirit to go possess an orbiting sattelite, which would be a -12 to its force as its now in deep space, and use a good telescope to see the spirit in the satelite and bind it that way....
Karoline
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Feb 20 2010, 10:51 PM) *
You could however tell the force 18 spirit to go possess an orbiting sattelite, which would be a -12 to its force as its now in deep space, and use a good telescope to see the spirit in the satelite and bind it that way....


You could order it to do that, but...
QUOTE
Once a spirit has been given a remote service, it is technically
released. Spirits on remote services no longer count against the
limit of summoned spirits.


I rather think a released spirit wouldn't be able to be bound.

Also keep in mind that you aren't going to have many services to burn on a F18 spirit to order it to do stuff to weaken itself. Binding's first net hit goes to forming the bond, and only net hits after that go towards additional services, so it is possible if you do something like this that you'll bind the spirit and have no services left and it will then be instantly released.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 20 2010, 09:01 PM) *
You could order it to do that, but...


I rather think a released spirit wouldn't be able to be bound.

Also keep in mind that you aren't going to have many services to burn on a F18 spirit to order it to do stuff to weaken itself. Binding's first net hit goes to forming the bond, and only net hits after that go towards additional services, so it is possible if you do something like this that you'll bind the spirit and have no services left and it will then be instantly released.


Unless you add, 'and stay there for X hours'
Karoline
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Feb 20 2010, 11:06 PM) *
Unless you add, 'and stay there for X hours'


No, because it will not be connected to you in any way, and so you won't be able to bind it. Once it goes on a remote service it no longer counts as being summoned by you in any way, and you can only bind a spirit which has been summoned by you.
Ghremdal
Digression:
Would this be a good houserule on burning edge?

When burning edge to make a test, you make the test as if you had spent edge on it but also add a number of successes equal to your edge after you finish rolling. So a character with 4 edge would roll DP + 4(as normal when spending edge on a test) and add a additional 4 successes to that when he burned edge.

OT:
I would say that its up to each individual GM to determine the boundary of abuse of a spirit, just like each individual GM might or might not allow you bonus dice on a social skill test because you roleplayed it well (as a example).
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 20 2010, 09:16 PM) *
No, because it will not be connected to you in any way, and so you won't be able to bind it. Once it goes on a remote service it no longer counts as being summoned by you in any way, and you can only bind a spirit which has been summoned by you.


Ok, looks like you're right. But now I'm going to be an asshole as say that you could not banish the spirit, and then bind it.... and likely get about 1/2 the astral world ready to nail you to a wood chipper and light you on fire.
Mordinvan
double post
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 21 2010, 05:16 AM) *
No, because it will not be connected to you in any way, and so you won't be able to bind it. Once it goes on a remote service it no longer counts as being summoned by you in any way, and you can only bind a spirit which has been summoned by you.
That is not the case:
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 187')
Remote services forfeit any other services the spirit might owe.

[...]

Once a spirit has completed a remote service, it is technically released (unless it is a bound spirit). Spirits on remote service continue to count against the limit of summoned spirits until their remote service is completed.

Karoline
Hmm, they changed it. SR4 says that you lose the limit once it is undertaken, not completed. I'm guessing they changed that so you didn't have a mage summon a spirit, order into that building half a kilo away, then summon another one and repeat.

QUOTE
Ok, looks like you're right. But now I'm going to be an asshole as say that you could not banish the spirit, and then bind it.... and likely get about 1/2 the astral world ready to nail you to a wood chipper and light you on fire.


What are you talking about? You can never banish then bind a spirit. You must banish it, then summon it, then bind it.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 20 2010, 11:15 PM) *
I think that part of the tradeoff involved in getting spirits that are less brainlessly literal about orders is that they will have more of a personality, with both the good and the bad that such entails. I think that the relationship a tradition has with spirits is often overlooked.

But what counts as abusing a spirit would cut across traditions, and be things such as using a bound spirit for spell binding, or attempting to get extremely broad or long-duration services from them with weaselly wording.


Um what is the tradeoff? It sounds like non-hermetics get smarter spirits, and get to roleplay with them. Hermetics get boned and boned. In 1-3e hermetic spirits being mindless kind of worked because you could argue the differences in how they were summoned and types of spirits made the dumb spirit a balancing tool. In 4e, they get basically the same spirits, they summon them the same way but they just get boned because there spirits are just flat out mindless, dumb constructs with a logic, intuition, and willpower of force. If you could abuse the mindless, dumb hermetic spirit then it might be a tradeoff. If you can't there isn't a tradeoff you just get the penalty spirit and didn't get any points for it.

It also doesn't make sense on a logical level to me. Are they mindless and won't see abuse when it happens, or are they smart enough to know when they are abused and therefore should not auto-bone the hermetic by following orders in a poor overly literal fashion.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 21 2010, 09:54 AM) *
Hmm, they changed it. SR4 says that you lose the limit once it is undertaken, not completed. I'm guessing they changed that so you didn't have a mage summon a spirit, order into that building half a kilo away, then summon another one and repeat.



What are you talking about? You can never banish then bind a spirit. You must banish it, then summon it, then bind it.


I thought you could use the banishment to bind shadow spirits and the like, and it wouldn't make sense you need to summon them again before you can bind them, as You can't summon a shadow spirit. Not saying you wrong, I just don't get how it would work.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Feb 21 2010, 11:35 AM) *
I thought you could use the banishment to bind shadow spirits and the like, and it wouldn't make sense you need to summon them again before you can bind them, as You can't summon a shadow spirit. Not saying you wrong, I just don't get how it would work.



You indeed can...

Ona successful Banishment, you can 9immediately attempt to bind the spirit to you... this is the only way to acquire spirit services form spirits outside of your tradition boundaries..

Keep the Faith
Karoline
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 21 2010, 01:44 PM) *
You indeed can...

Ona successful Banishment, you can 9immediately attempt to bind the spirit to you... this is the only way to acquire spirit services form spirits outside of your tradition boundaries..

Keep the Faith


Not quite. You banish the spirit. Once a spirit has been banished it will use it's next available action to return to its home metaplane. Before it does so anyone (in LOS) can attempt to summon the spirit as per the normal summoning rules with the exception that you get that particular spirit. This means that you can not only potentially have it spill info on what it was doing for its previous 'owner', but also that you can grab a spirit that is outside your tradition. In order to keep it past the next sunup/sundown however you'll need to bind it, once again using all the normal rules for binding.

This is basically the only reason you would ever use banishing as opposed to smacking a spirit with a high force stunbolt (Or, you know, if you don't have stunbolt).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 21 2010, 11:53 AM) *
Not quite. You banish the spirit. Once a spirit has been banished it will use it's next available action to return to its home metaplane. Before it does so anyone (in LOS) can attempt to summon the spirit as per the normal summoning rules with the exception that you get that particular spirit. This means that you can not only potentially have it spill info on what it was doing for its previous 'owner', but also that you can grab a spirit that is outside your tradition. In order to keep it past the next sunup/sundown however you'll need to bind it, once again using all the normal rules for binding.

This is basically the only reason you would ever use banishing as opposed to smacking a spirit with a high force stunbolt (Or, you know, if you don't have stunbolt).



Gotcha...

Yeah, I rely upon the banishing capabilities of the Stunbolt myself... much more reliable...

Keep the Faith
Glyph
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Feb 21 2010, 09:07 AM) *
Um what is the tradeoff? It sounds like non-hermetics get smarter spirits, and get to roleplay with them. Hermetics get boned and boned. In 1-3e hermetic spirits being mindless kind of worked because you could argue the differences in how they were summoned and types of spirits made the dumb spirit a balancing tool. In 4e, they get basically the same spirits, they summon them the same way but they just get boned because there spirits are just flat out mindless, dumb constructs with a logic, intuition, and willpower of force. If you could abuse the mindless, dumb hermetic spirit then it might be a tradeoff. If you can't there isn't a tradeoff you just get the penalty spirit and didn't get any points for it.

It also doesn't make sense on a logical level to me. Are they mindless and won't see abuse when it happens, or are they smart enough to know when they are abused and therefore should not auto-bone the hermetic by following orders in a poor overly literal fashion.

Poor wording on my part. Elementals are not dumb like watchers. But they act, and are treated, like servitor creatures who are ordered about. They are less likely to point out that something they are ordered to do is dumb, or to go out of their way to be helpful. But they are also less likely to sass their conjurer, or interpret their orders maliciously if they are offended. Now, they aren't completely devoid of personality, especially the higher-Force ones, but overall, they are servants rather than the "minions of the gods" or "revered spirits of our ancestors".

Personally, I like hermetics way better. I would rather summon a fire elemental and say "Burn down this door", than to be all "Oh mighty spirit of the woodlands, please aid me in this endeavor, and I will plant three saplings in the downtown park."
AngelisStorm
Loa. I'm totally down giving rum & cigars to spirits. cool.gif

(Apparently Pele really likes gin & cigarettes. While not a possession spirit, I think she's a good example of a F18 great form spirit.)
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Feb 21 2010, 01:07 PM) *
In 4e, they get basically the same spirits, they summon them the same way but they just get boned because there spirits are just flat out mindless, dumb constructs with a logic, intuition, and willpower of force. If you could abuse the mindless, dumb hermetic spirit then it might be a tradeoff. If you can't there isn't a tradeoff you just get the penalty spirit and didn't get any points for it.


Except this viewpoint isn't actually borne out by 4th Edition RAW. There is no mention of hermetically summoned spirits being dumb or mindless even if it is implied that they are usually not treated as equals by their conjurer-- hence the existence of spirits' rights groups. You need to dip into previous edition fluff to come to the conclusion that hermetic spirits are incapable of sophistication, since being a construct doesn't necessarily equate being an imbecile, particularly if this construct is in many ways an extension of the conjurer's will. Further, a lot of previous edition precedents are a rather poor fit these days since 4th edition has taken pains to homogenize the traditions in many ways. As Glyph pointed out, you're just as likely to end up with a GM that treats a shaman's spirits as simply being high maintenance for no real benefit as you are to run into a GM who treats them as being proactive overachievers.* It's really up to the GM these days to be even handed when it comes to spirit interactions.


*Okay, maybe that's a slight exaggeration, since many people likely will be passingly familiar with previous edition fluff. But please also consider that all that crap is gettin' old. A few months ago I ran a one shot that included a friend's 16 year old cousin. In other words, we have people younger than 2nd edition playing these games.
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