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Renmir
First time post, sure to go down in flames.

Which is generally considered the system to use for munchkin builds? Does one char gen system favor combatants, while another favors mystics? Why is Karma only 750, instead of the 800 I would expect from 400BP? If you were a power gamer, trying to squeeze every bit of flexibility out of your new character, which system would you use?

Don't try to convince me not to powergame. My table is full of powergamers, and I'm going to have a hard time catching up as it is. I just don't want to be fodder when we start. I'm looking for honest opinions and experience on which of these system favors what type of characters, and suggestions on how to go about stretching every last char gen resource available. Thanks.
Udoshi
Build Point generation encourages powergaming, because it is, in my opinion, poorly costed. It tends to lead to thinking like 'Oh. Do I want one rank of punching people so I don't have to default, or do I want twenty thousand grand worth of bullets'.

There are two versions of karmagen. The first is as-published, which is broken and typoed cause the devs are stupid and can't put out errata for the Runner's Companion. Its 750, because it was written and statted with the 4th anniversary edition costs in mind, namely ratingx5 attribute cost. As printed its 3, which is seriously overpowered.

BP-gen is brute force min-maxing. Karmagen is finesse min-maxing, but it makes you pay for every dice you get. On the flipside, if you want small pools, its much cheaper. I prefer karmagen in general, as long as its the Balanced Version, and makes transitioning to experience gain after game start a lot easier.

Don't know anything about priority gen. Haven't seen many posts about it here.
FriendoftheDork
BP favors high ratings in skills, attributes etc. since buying a skill of 6 cost as much as buying 6 skills at 1. Also it is best to do the extremes, which means having very high attributes and very low ones. The high ones costs tremendous amounts of karma later, while the low ones costs very little karma to improve to the mid level,

Karma system with 750 karma isn't bad, and the 1BP=2 karma conversion is not corrects. For example, buying a skill of 3 with karma costs 14 karma but with BPs it costs 12BPs (wich would be 24 karma). So for characters with many low skills/stats you can profit alot from using karma.


I haven't used priority system since SR2.
toturi
Usually the GM decides which character generation method he allows. From your post, I surmise that he might be allowing all 3, whichever you wish to use.

400 BP is the default method. It can be used to create pretty strong characters.

750 Karma is perhaps the second most popular method. Due to its mechanics, it tends to create well-rounded characters (excepting Knowledge skills) that cannot be surpassed using the 400 BP system. However, this is if the GM does not house rule certain costs (note: while there has been posts saying/asking that there be certain changes eg. Attribute to match SR4A, no free races. etc, coming via errata, there has yet been an official errata published).

Priority, I feel, is best left to those who are experienced and know what they are doing.

You can gain flexibility for your character in multiple ways. And the chargen methods favor certain ways more than others. A tweak to the character here and a slight change there, and another chargen method may well be better for this character. If you are asking for which chargen method might be better for a certain build, you could get a more definitive answer, but asking which method is better for powergaming... Well, each method lends itself to powergaming in a different way, you need to know how to do it or else it doesn't help.
Neowulf
Karma is more efficient for stats that don't get a metatype boost.

Edit- Strike that skill thing, I neglected to convert karma to bp, way too late for me to figure maths.
Glyph
Karmagen used to be, hands-down, the best system for powergaming, but SR4A changed that when it raised the cost of improving Attributes with Karma. Also, it was clarified that special Attributes are included in the cap (375 plus metatype cost) of how many points can be spent on Attributes. Karmagen favors - mundanes, either human, or metahumans where you are coasting on your Attribute-boosted stats rather than trying to raise them (in other words, an ork where you, say, just raise Body to 5 and keep Strength as 3, as opposed to a troll where you try to raise Strength to 9). It is not good for awakened characters unless you keep your Edge minimal, since you typically won't be able to get both special Attributes high without sacrificing some core Attributes.

Priority is a clunky system that doesn't have things you need such as specializations. Also, a good powergaming character will often have the equivalent of "Priority A" for a number of things. All in all, not a very useful alternative character creation system.

Build Points, while tending to be slightly less overall points than Karmagen, lets you use them more strategically. It is the go-to system if you want an awakened character (especially one with a decent Edge), or a character where you want to raise racially-modified Attributes higher (for example, the troll in the above example raising his Strength to 9 pays the same as a human raising his Strength to 5).

My overall strategy, if I were concentrating on powergaming, would be to make a nice, tight build with build points, then double-check it to see if it is legal and under 750 karma in Karmagen - if it is, then change it over to Karmagen and spend the "leftover" points.
Surukai
Priority system is "worst" for powergaming since doesn't minmax properly. (You only get magic 5, not all resources needed for maxed implants etc)

Most minmaxed monster characters seem to use BP since the linear cost makes it far better to burn all BP To max a few things instead of spreading out on multiple areas. (Have godlike 6 in one skill or be useless 2 in 3?)

My group uses Karmagen because it makes it the same rules for creating character as it is improving it later. That way you don't have to take "what's cheap in BP" at character generation and then go for "what's cheap in karma" once you start playing. You better start game with agi 5, charisma 1 and then raise charisma to 3 for just 25 karma than you are starting with agi 3, charisma 3 and then raising agility to 5 for 45 karma (the later character mysteriously loose 20 karma, or 3-4 adventures worth of gameplay just by not buying smart). With karmagen it doesn't matter what way you start since the same rules apply for improvement as it does at chargen.

Karma also makes high values more expensive while it is much cheaper on low values. That means you pay slightly more karma (than equivalent bp) to raise stuff to 5 and stats for the useful races that go beyond 6 while you get a discount (compared to BP) on getting that charisma 2 (or strength 2), utility skill or just character building skill (like Artisan, Escape Artist, etc.) As GM I prefer to see my players not get punished for being a little jack of all trades.

The downside of karma, aside from much more counting at chargen is the weirdness about other races. To say the race is free makes it quite strange and it seem standard is to charge BPx2 for races just like everything else that is translated directly from BP. This makes a lot more sense for the special character types like shape-shifters or sapient critters. I strongly suggest charging the race's BP-cost since you do get a lot of "free" stats and positive qualities. (Troll starting Body and Strength 5 would cost 140 karma to buy and BPx2 means you only pay 80 for that and get +1 reach, +1 armour and thermographic vision too)
Also, make sure you use Anniversary costs for karma (that is, Attributes cost x 5, not x3!!)

The reason it is 750 and not 800 is because since karma is a bit cheaper on the low-mid values and you are "supposed" to have charisma 2-3, not 1 etc. it evens out between karma and bp for a "typical character" at 750 karma instead of 800. The overall power of a karma character should be comparable with a bp character at 400 BP as long as you don't munchkin either type.
Thanee
What I seriously dislike about Karmagen is, that you have to buy your Knowledge skills, which generally leads to neglecting them once more.

The free points for Knowledge skills (and Contacts -- as a House Rule) are a really good thing, IMHO.

Also I totally dislike, that the Special Attributes are included...

These are the two issues I have with the system and which I would change (as a House Rule), personally.


But conceptually, Karmagen is the better method, because it is more balanced.

Bye
Thanee
toturi
QUOTE (Surukai @ Feb 19 2010, 04:08 PM) *
My group uses Karmagen because it makes it the same rules for creating character as it is improving it later. That way you don't have to take "what's cheap in BP" at character generation and then go for "what's cheap in karma" once you start playing. You better start game with agi 5, charisma 1 and then raise charisma to 3 for just 25 karma than you are starting with agi 3, charisma 3 and then raising agility to 5 for 45 karma (the later character mysteriously loose 20 karma, or 3-4 adventures worth of gameplay just by not buying smart). With karmagen it doesn't matter what way you start since the same rules apply for improvement as it does at chargen.

The downside of karma, aside from much more counting at chargen is the weirdness about other races. To say the race is free makes it quite strange and it seem standard is to charge BPx2 for races just like everything else that is translated directly from BP. This makes a lot more sense for the special character types like shape-shifters or sapient critters. I strongly suggest charging the race's BP-cost since you do get a lot of "free" stats and positive qualities. (Troll starting Body and Strength 5 would cost 140 karma to buy and BPx2 means you only pay 80 for that and get +1 reach, +1 armour and thermographic vision too)
Also, make sure you use Anniversary costs for karma (that is, Attributes cost x 5, not x3!!)

The reason it is 750 and not 800 is because since karma is a bit cheaper on the low-mid values and you are "supposed" to have charisma 2-3, not 1 etc. it evens out between karma and bp for a "typical character" at 750 karma instead of 800. The overall power of a karma character should be comparable with a bp character at 400 BP as long as you don't munchkin either type.

I do not quite understand this. The OP is asking for how to powergame, not how to get a balanced character. So it should be "make sure you insist on using the published costs karma for Attributes as stated in Runner Companion and not the Anniversary costs and sticking to free racial costs for karma gen".
Surukai
QUOTE (toturi @ Feb 19 2010, 09:50 AM) *
I do not quite understand this. The OP is asking for how to powergame, not how to get a balanced character. So it should be "make sure you insist on using the published costs karma for Attributes as stated in Runner Companion and not the Anniversary costs and sticking to free racial costs for karma gen".


Ehm, right but isn't that kind of exploiting the intent of the karmagen and the anniversary costs is a newer book and should have priority even in RAW imho.

And, on a personal level. The GM will see how it is obviously broken and might turn down karmagen altogether if we use the RC printed costs and since I'm in favor of karmagen to encourage more balanced characters I couldn't speak for that. (And not forgetting that I misread the OPs intents and just spewed out my general thoughts on chargen pros and cons instead >.<)
Saint Sithney
Man, there was a bit of explaining there which didn't really pan out into knowledge. I'm going to break it down for you a little, guy.

I'm making a troll tank. I want body of 9 because that's what daddy likes.

So, under bp, I'm going to pay 40bp to be a troll.
Wicked. Now I've got a natural body of 5. I pay 40bp more to raise that stat to 9.
So, that's 80 bp for a body of 9.

Now, under karmagen, I get to be a troll for free. I just got it like that. No sweat.
Body 5 again, and I want to raise it to 9. That's going to cost me 30 + 35 + 40 +45 karma or just 150 karma.
Not a terrible exchange rate, but it's pretty costy when it comes time to buy some strength too.

Also, with bp, I still have 160 more bp I can potentially spend on attributes.
Whereas, with karma, I've burned nearly half my total attribute budget on a single stat. Nuts to that, brother.
Unless I can spend half karma + 2x(BP metatype cost) like with the special spendy races... That'd at least let me weight heavier to attributes on startup..
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Feb 19 2010, 11:48 AM) *
Man, there was a bit of explaining there which didn't really pan out into knowledge. I'm going to break it down for you a little, guy.

I'm making a troll tank. I want body of 9 because that's what daddy likes.

So, under bp, I'm going to pay 40bp to be a troll.
Wicked. Now I've got a natural body of 5. I pay 40bp more to raise that stat to 9.
So, that's 80 bp for a body of 9.

Now, under karmagen, I get to be a troll for free. I just got it like that. No sweat.
Body 5 again, and I want to raise it to 9. That's going to cost me 30 + 35 + 40 +45 karma or just 150 karma.
Not a terrible exchange rate, but it's pretty costy when it comes time to buy some strength too.

Also, with bp, I still have 160 more bp I can potentially spend on attributes.
Whereas, with karma, I've burned nearly half my total attribute budget on a single stat. Nuts to that, brother.
Unless I can spend half karma + 2x(BP metatype cost) like with the special spendy races... That'd at least let me weight heavier to attributes on startup..


I almost though you meant the BP system was more costly here... 80BP for body 9 is probably the least costly way to get body 9 in shadowrun (except maybe special races).

Karma system as written should probably be adjusted quite a bit. It works fairly balanced if you want high scores in your racial stats (as it has no discounts for the higher stats) but means you get attribute points for free if you don't mind mediocre racial stats. So there is hardly any reason not to make an elf, orc or dwarf instead of human except for fluff reasons (easily overcome by human looking quality) they are free.

In my game I used normal costs for metas (double BP in karma), but made up for it by allowing one to raise attributes as if racial modifiers were augmented attributes - thus the cost for a troll with +4 body to buy body 6 would be the same for a human buying body 2. Also, I raised the cost of attributes to new rating*5 (before the errata), and gave out free karma for language and knowledge skills just as in the BP system 2(intuition+logic)(*3) karma IIRC, in a slightly sexier formula.
Medicineman
According to Errattaed Karma Systems
all the Metavariants cost now the same amount in Karma than in BP
(so no more Trolls for Free)

with a Dance for Free
Medicineman
toturi
QUOTE (Surukai @ Feb 19 2010, 05:40 PM) *
Ehm, right but isn't that kind of exploiting the intent of the karmagen and the anniversary costs is a newer book and should have priority even in RAW imho.

And, on a personal level. The GM will see how it is obviously broken and might turn down karmagen altogether if we use the RC printed costs and since I'm in favor of karmagen to encourage more balanced characters I couldn't speak for that. (And not forgetting that I misread the OPs intents and just spewed out my general thoughts on chargen pros and cons instead >.<)

There is an explicit karma cost table in Runner's Companion and there is no errata on that. The karma gen system in RC does not reference the karma costs in SR4, therefore even if SR4A is a newer book and is an update on SR4, there should be no implication on the karma gen system in RC.

There is nothing obviously broken about karma gen as printed, at least not any more so than BP gen. I can make a BP gen character that comes out costing more in karma and vice versa.
Surukai
QUOTE (toturi @ Feb 19 2010, 02:04 PM) *
There is an explicit karma cost table in Runner's Companion and there is no errata on that. The karma gen system in RC does not reference the karma costs in SR4, therefore even if SR4A is a newer book and is an update on SR4, there should be no implication on the karma gen system in RC.


But it is called karma system and as far as I know, Karma is karma. Why would it be called karma generation if it actually used some own private currency that just happens to have similar sounding name? So, my counter argument would be that karma gen uses the karma exchange rates at character generation just like they do for awarded karma and those are updated in SR4A and should be used over the ones in the old printed RC.

My perceived intended use for this is to have the same point system for generation as in game to remove the "buy that for karma later, it's cheaper or you must max this at character generation because you can't afford it later"-problem.


QUOTE (medicineman)
According to Errattaed Karma Systems
all the Metavariants cost now the same amount in Karma than in BP
(so no more Trolls for Free)

Where can I read this errata?
Medicineman
Where can I read this errata?
Its allready printed in the German books,
but I don't know where you can find it here ?

with a german (not bavarian) Dance
Medicineman
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Renmir @ Feb 19 2010, 01:26 AM) *
Don't try to convince me not to powergame. My table is full of powergamers, and I'm going to have a hard time catching up as it is. I just don't want to be fodder when we start. I'm looking for honest opinions and experience on which of these system favors what type of characters, and suggestions on how to go about stretching every last char gen resource available. Thanks.


BP for the group will tend to keep them closer together, it'll be less extreme range then karmagen. I suspect priority might even put the group closer together. Fundamentally, none of the choices really keep any group balanced by itself if all the PC are built on a power game basis. Mechanically the powergamer will spend a third to half their build points (karmagen or BP) on basics and blow the rest on getting a huge pool at what they want. The only way to handle this is to reduce the available build pool by at least a third.
toturi
QUOTE (Surukai @ Feb 19 2010, 10:07 PM) *
But it is called karma system and as far as I know, Karma is karma. Why would it be called karma generation if it actually used some own private currency that just happens to have similar sounding name? So, my counter argument would be that karma gen uses the karma exchange rates at character generation just like they do for awarded karma and those are updated in SR4A and should be used over the ones in the old printed RC.

My perceived intended use for this is to have the same point system for generation as in game to remove the "buy that for karma later, it's cheaper or you must max this at character generation because you can't afford it later"-problem.

Karma is karma. But the exchange rate for the items you want for karma is different before and during the game. If it remains unerrataed in the english version, I perceive it to be intended to mirror the same "buy that for karma later, it's cheaper or you must max this at character generation because you can't afford it later" feature as BP.
Renmir
Thanks for the help here guys. I honestly expected this thread to crash and burn early on due to fanatical hate for powergamers. Instead, I got some really useful information.

The GM isn't an idiot. He's going to notice something is out of line if I use the 3x instead of 5x for ability costs. Yeah, I want to exploit every potential advantage I can, but I need to have a leg to stand on when presenting the character, and he's going to make 'common sense' rulings if there's ambiguity on a rule. That would mean that under Karmagen, I may be paying for my metatype, and I will be paying 5x for my attribute increases. I might be able to make an argument for Racial Stats as Base Stats for attribute purchases (FriendoftheDork's suggestion), if I pay for my metatype.

From what everyone has said, it sounds like BP is better if you want some maxed stats, and Karma is better if you want fine grain control of everything but attributes. The exception in both these cases seems to be the special character types. I do like Glyph's suggestion of building in BP and checking legality in Karma. He mentions that BP is better than Karma if you want an Awakened character. Does this mesh with everyone elses thoughts? If I wanted to make a mage, or a stealth type, or a TM, all with at least some competency with firearms and a decent reaction attribute, should I stick to BP for the exceptional attributes?
Draco18s
My tip:

Find something to be good at it and twink the fuck out of it.

Some suggestions:

Abusing the stacking modifiers for social interactions (aka Pornomancer)
Abusing the various ways to have high Edge, and getting 8 (aka Mr. Lucky)
Abuse the throwing rules and bean people with grenades (two for the price of one attack).
Abuse adept powers for breaking objects and high strength race (troll or bear-shifter--you know you want to be able to break through walls like the cool aid man, rendering any barrier the GM can throw at you null and void).
Abuse suppressive fire, find a gun with near-infinite ammo capacity,* full auto mode, and just lay out the lead

*Extended clip, extra clip, and quick draw gets you close enough: 190% the original ammo capacity of the gun and you can eject one clip while firing from the other. Bonus points for using gel rounds, which step up the damage as you're not getting any net hits, and will generally be firing on targets with fewer stun boxes than physical.
Ancient History
If I drank, I would drink until I forget Runner's Companion exists.
Dragnar
I still maintain Unwired is worse, but it seems I'm in a minority there.
But yes, Runner's Companion was terrible.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Dragnar @ Feb 19 2010, 10:29 AM) *
I still maintain Unwired is worse, but it seems I'm in a minority there.
But yes, Runner's Companion was terrible.


I like what they tried to do with both books, but yes. Ultimately they were poorly done.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dragnar @ Feb 19 2010, 08:29 AM) *
I still maintain Unwired is worse, but it seems I'm in a minority there.
But yes, Runner's Companion was terrible.



I don't know... I enjoyed both of them...
Some things need some tweaking in Errata (when is that never the case), but otherwise, not so bad IMHO...

Keep the Faith
Omenowl
You can get pretty high with priority.

Priority 1 for special attributes (human)
Priority 2 for magician
Priority 3 Attributes
Priority 4 Skills
Priority 5 Resources

This way you can get an edge of 7 and a magic of 6
The scary part is magician is not counted towards your 35 points of postive qualities under the priority system.
AndyZ
This will take a while, but I suggest using both BP and Karma to try to make characters and see what you can come up with. One system will probably stand out above the others as a good method that gives you more. I don't know much about Priorities but if you have the time you may even want to try that too.

If you want to say what you want to make, I'm sure a bunch of us would be glad to help you out.

If you absolutely want to completely twink out the BP system:

Attributes should be either 5s or 1s, assuming you're human. Use the equivalent for any other metavariant: either don't put any points at all or put them just shy of the maximum so you don't have to pay the 25bp. (This may seem extreme, but just consider it if the other players are as bad as you mentioned.)

Buy either one skill at 6 or two skills at 5. Any other skills or skill groups you buy should be at 4. Don't buy any specialties.

I wouldn't bother with too many spells if you're a magician, but max out your complex forms if you go technomancer.

Binding Spirits beforehand with BP isn't really worth it. Registering Sprites definitely isn't.

If you take a High Lifestyle, set 1200 nuyen aside to give you +12 to the roll. That equates to +6000 on the starting nuyen roll.

Knowledge skills are just the opposite. Don't waste any Karma on these when the game begins, so if you get a decent Intuition and Logic score, put single points into lots of languages since you can't default in them.

I hope some of that helps.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Feb 19 2010, 05:18 PM) *
You can get pretty high with priority.

Priority 1 for special attributes (human)
Priority 2 for magician
Priority 3 Attributes
Priority 4 Skills
Priority 5 Resources

This way you can get an edge of 7 and a magic of 6
The scary part is magician is not counted towards your 35 points of postive qualities under the priority system.


Not bad, your attributes and skills will suck but with a magic 6 and edge 7 who cares.

Edit to add:
Just put together a quick mage like this. Not great, it has some glaring flaws, but they are cheap to remedy with karma if the GM is giving standard karma rewards.

Bod 5
Str 1
Agl 1
Rea 3
Chr 1
Int 2
Log 4
Will 6
Essence 6
Edge 7
Magic 6


Sorcery 4
Binding 4
Summoning 4
Assensing 4
perception 4

And you have 5,000 to spend(hey look armor) and you get 2 contacts. Not bad, even ignoring the max attribute penalties for will magic, and edge this comes to 379 points. 394 after the magician quality. In this version you can get 35 more points in positive and negative qualities, where as in the normal you could only get 20 more points in positive(though I often used the points for attributes or skills)
Karoline
The (really) simple breakdown is that generally BP is better for powergaming min/maxing shenanigans with the rather notable exception of a generalist type (Which I guess isn't exactly a powergaming character).

As others have said, BP encourages you to either buy it to max or not touch it, while karmagen encourages you to get a smattering of everything and leave maxes alone. The only character that really benefits (from a powergaming standpoint) from karmagen is one that will be taking a large number of skills and/or alot of stats in the mid to low range.

Not sure about priority system. I think it is actually geared towards new players and/or creating characters quickly because you don't have to worry about every little BP, you just pick stuff and go. I would imagine however that it encourages the 'take it to the max or leave it alone' style that you get in BP because (I think) that a 5 to 6 boost costs the same as a 0 to 1 boost, so why bother with any low skills?

As an aside it is for that exact reason I prefer karmagen. I want to be able to give my characters a smattering of 1 and 2 point skills without feeling like my first action in the game was to shoot myself in the foot.
Omenowl
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Feb 19 2010, 05:38 PM) *
Not bad, your attributes and skills will suck but with a magic 6 and edge 7 who cares.

Edit to add:
Just put together a quick mage like this. Not great, it has some glaring flaws, but they are cheap to remedy with karma if the GM is giving standard karma rewards.

Bod 5
Str 1
Agl 1
Rea 3
Chr 1
Int 2
Log 4
Will 6
Essence 6
Edge 7
Magic 6


Sorcery 4
Binding 4
Summoning 4
Assensing 4
perception 4

And you have 5,000 to spend(hey look armor) and you get 2 contacts. Not bad, even ignoring the max attribute penalties for will magic, and edge this comes to 379 points. 394 after the magician quality. In this version you can get 35 more points in positive and negative qualities, where as in the normal you could only get 20 more points in positive(though I often used the points for attributes or skills)


I may have not ordered them correctly. I remember coming out with more than the 400 BP.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 19 2010, 08:49 PM) *
The (really) simple breakdown is that generally BP is better for powergaming min/maxing shenanigans with the rather notable exception of a generalist type (Which I guess isn't exactly a powergaming character).

As others have said, BP encourages you to either buy it to max or not touch it, while karmagen encourages you to get a smattering of everything and leave maxes alone. The only character that really benefits (from a powergaming standpoint) from karmagen is one that will be taking a large number of skills and/or alot of stats in the mid to low range.

Not sure about priority system. I think it is actually geared towards new players and/or creating characters quickly because you don't have to worry about every little BP, you just pick stuff and go. I would imagine however that it encourages the 'take it to the max or leave it alone' style that you get in BP because (I think) that a 5 to 6 boost costs the same as a 0 to 1 boost, so why bother with any low skills?

As an aside it is for that exact reason I prefer karmagen. I want to be able to give my characters a smattering of 1 and 2 point skills without feeling like my first action in the game was to shoot myself in the foot.


I prefer karmagen for the same reason, I build diverse characters and they feel like someone who might have actually had a life and grown to where they are instead of being constructed in a lab.


QUOTE (Omenowl @ Feb 19 2010, 11:04 PM) *
I may have not ordered them correctly. I remember coming out with more than the 400 BP.


It is over 400 points in that that maxing magic and edge costs an additional 15 points each so that is 409 which I did not put into my numbers, since I also maxed will that would knock it to 424. But maybe putting attributes in 4th place would be worth even more, i don't know.
Omenowl
Of the systems I prefer the karma system only to get a better rounded out character. I do think the karma level is set too high, but otherwise I prefer the system. I think the system needs to require a certain number of knowledge skills.

toturi
QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 20 2010, 08:49 AM) *
The (really) simple breakdown is that generally BP is better for powergaming min/maxing shenanigans with the rather notable exception of a generalist type (Which I guess isn't exactly a powergaming character).

As others have said, BP encourages you to either buy it to max or not touch it, while karmagen encourages you to get a smattering of everything and leave maxes alone. The only character that really benefits (from a powergaming standpoint) from karmagen is one that will be taking a large number of skills and/or alot of stats in the mid to low range.

Not sure about priority system. I think it is actually geared towards new players and/or creating characters quickly because you don't have to worry about every little BP, you just pick stuff and go. I would imagine however that it encourages the 'take it to the max or leave it alone' style that you get in BP because (I think) that a 5 to 6 boost costs the same as a 0 to 1 boost, so why bother with any low skills?

As an aside it is for that exact reason I prefer karmagen. I want to be able to give my characters a smattering of 1 and 2 point skills without feeling like my first action in the game was to shoot myself in the foot.

I disagree. A generalist type character is exactly a powergaming character. A min-maxed character can't powergame all the time by virtue of min-maxing, there will be a min somewhere sometime. A generalist has everything covered, there are no weaknesses, it is power-on all the time.

BP by itself encourages max or nothing but the game mechanics discourages that due to the defaulting rules. You take low skills because you do not want to default, defaulting means shooting yourself in the foot, buying a Rating 1 means gaining 2 dice from Rating 0. Therefore BP in a practical sense mandates touch it for 1 or max it. Thus the skill limits actually play a part, you can only have 1 skill at 6 or 2 at 5, the rest has to be 4 max.
Omenowl
I disagree about a balanced character being a power gamer. BP and priority encourage min/maxing, but also if you have a large enough group you don't need to be balanced. Within 5 or 6 sessions odds are you filled out your basic skills/attributes to at least a level 1 for those skills that come up regularly. Most people in the real world use unskilled defaulting for their daily tasks. Extended tests and simple issues make it fairly easy to coast through life. It is only when you run up against something with a timeline, skills that one can not default, or critical nature you need a skill.

Most players either pick a skill for their character so they don't have to worry about it, or avoid having need to use that skill. Do all the player negotiate or just the face? Make influence, negotation, etc a skill characters need to use every game and you will find that it needs to be raised.

Don't get me wrong I like generalists, but only to fill out niche roles or to support a larger group in cases the specialist is neutralized.

Cain
QUOTE (Renmir @ Feb 19 2010, 07:23 AM) *
From what everyone has said, it sounds like BP is better if you want some maxed stats, and Karma is better if you want fine grain control of everything but attributes. The exception in both these cases seems to be the special character types. I do like Glyph's suggestion of building in BP and checking legality in Karma. He mentions that BP is better than Karma if you want an Awakened character. Does this mesh with everyone elses thoughts? If I wanted to make a mage, or a stealth type, or a TM, all with at least some competency with firearms and a decent reaction attribute, should I stick to BP for the exceptional attributes?

That depends. Does your GM allow initiations at chargen with karmagen? If so, you can get some stupidly powerful Awakened types. The same is true for Submersions/Otaku. In particular, a min/maxed summoner build (either mage or otaku) can get out of hand really quickly. You can't do this under BP's.

Personally, I've built insane characters using both systems. It really depends on what you're going for. Do you have more of a character concept in mind?
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (toturi @ Feb 20 2010, 04:43 AM) *
I disagree. A generalist type character is exactly a powergaming character. A min-maxed character can't powergame all the time by virtue of min-maxing, there will be a min somewhere sometime. A generalist has everything covered, there are no weaknesses, it is power-on all the time.

BP by itself encourages max or nothing but the game mechanics discourages that due to the defaulting rules. You take low skills because you do not want to default, defaulting means shooting yourself in the foot, buying a Rating 1 means gaining 2 dice from Rating 0. Therefore BP in a practical sense mandates touch it for 1 or max it. Thus the skill limits actually play a part, you can only have 1 skill at 6 or 2 at 5, the rest has to be 4 max.


A min-maxed character means you minimize weaknesses and maximize advantages. Thus you're karma char IS a min-maxed character.

You can also min-max with BP of course, in that you ignore skills or stats you're not likely to use, while maximizing those you think you need or will use.

Generalists does not need to be min-maxed or power gamed at all, it's just someone with lots of diffierent skills and abilites. It's alot harder to make a generalist that is "power on" than a specialist, especially in BP system.
wanderer_king
BP is powergame.... right.... seriously, it is broken and I won't allow it at my table.... every time I build a Karmagen character the start at effective 600+ BP..... that is powergaming. Also, its just as easy to min max, but your min maxed character will snag up an extra role or two to due when his specialization isn't needed. (This happens frequently for my combat hacker.)
Surukai
With min-max in this context I refer to identifying and using "dumpstats". The typical example is having strength 1 because strength is useless for most characters, bodyx2 determines armour capacity anyway etc. Charisma 1 is another, who cares if you roll 1 or 3 dice for negotiation? You won't find shit anyway, let the face with his 40+ dice do that stuff.

BP literally scream "buy either 5 or 1 in your attributes, anything in between is stupid, fix that with karma later!". Any character not getting either min or max in their stuff (skills, stats, etc) will be suboptimal. Don't even bother getting skills to 1 unless the're critical (i.e. you actually need it and it can't be defaulted). It costs 4 karma to get a new active skill but 4 BP to get one at 1. Karma is worth about half as much, meaning it's twice as cheap to buy it with karma later than getting it from start while raising your troll body to 9 from 8 costs 10 BP but a massive 45 karma (more than 4 times as much karma as bp, or +350% more bang for your buck compared to that no-good active skill at rating 1)
nezumi
This is sort of a trick question, really. What are you doing, and how many points do you have in each? If you're making somebody with a few very high skills, point-buy is *probably* best. If you're looking at someone with a very diverse set of skills and attributes, go karma. Someone odd like a troll mage, go with priority. If the option is 750 karma or 180 points, go with karma.

You may want to figure out your character concept, then build them in all of the systems, to see which works out best. That would be truly munchkin nyahnyah.gif

The other thing to remember is, inevitably, you'll be using the karma system once gameplay begins. This means using EXCEPT the karma system for chargen will likely be best, because then you have a hybrid system - you can leverage the benefits of both.

(For the record, I've found sum-to-10 is the best balance of complexity and balance, so I used that. Even so, I fully expect characters to start with 1 in at least one attribute, and mostly 6s in their skills.)
Glyph
Saying Karma is better for a "generalist" is a bit of a... generalization. You can get a skill of 6 or two skills of 5 at character creation, and while that might be a bit pricier in karmagen, it's still doable. I fiddled around with building a mundane ork character, testing out the revised rules (higher costs for Attributes, spend the race's BP cost in Karma), and even though it was min-maxed, it still came out slightly better than it would have in BP, and that included actually buying knowledge skills equivalent to what he would have had under BP.

But some metatypes definitely come out better in Karmagen, and orks are at the sweet spot (although they are that way under BPs, too).

As far as BPs go, I have not found it to encourage "buy it at soft max, or buy it at 1". That might be a valid min-maxing tactic for some builds, but when using it normally, I have not felt that temptation - I usually get the skill of 6 or two skills of 5, then get other important skills at 3 or 4, with 1 or 2 for tertiary or less critically important skills. In BP, skills are a flat cost, so it is actually beneficial to take numerous high ones. Specializations are costlier at character creation under BPs, although from a powergaming perspective, sometimes getting +2 dice from the starting gate is more important than saving a few points.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Surukai @ Feb 20 2010, 06:19 AM) *
With min-max in this context I refer to identifying and using "dumpstats". The typical example is having strength 1 because strength is useless for most characters, bodyx2 determines armour capacity anyway etc. Charisma 1 is another, who cares if you roll 1 or 3 dice for negotiation? You won't find shit anyway, let the face with his 40+ dice do that stuff.

BP literally scream "buy either 5 or 1 in your attributes, anything in between is stupid, fix that with karma later!". Any character not getting either min or max in their stuff (skills, stats, etc) will be suboptimal. Don't even bother getting skills to 1 unless the're critical (i.e. you actually need it and it can't be defaulted). It costs 4 karma to get a new active skill but 4 BP to get one at 1. Karma is worth about half as much, meaning it's twice as cheap to buy it with karma later than getting it from start while raising your troll body to 9 from 8 costs 10 BP but a massive 45 karma (more than 4 times as much karma as bp, or +350% more bang for your buck compared to that no-good active skill at rating 1)



Wow, Really? I have not pictured it this way since 4th came out...
I guess everyone has their own perceptions though...

Keep the Faith
Karoline
QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 20 2010, 09:49 AM) *
Saying Karma is better for a "generalist" is a bit of a... generalization. You can get a skill of 6 or two skills of 5 at character creation, and while that might be a bit pricier in karmagen, it's still doable. I fiddled around with building a mundane ork character, testing out the revised rules (higher costs for Attributes, spend the race's BP cost in Karma), and even though it was min-maxed, it still came out slightly better than it would have in BP, and that included actually buying knowledge skills equivalent to what he would have had under BP.


Yes, Karmagen isn't bad for making a specialist character, but my point was that a generalist is much easier to make in karmagen. For example, getting all the skill groups and a large chunk of the non-grouped skills at 1 costs something like 140 BP or 140 karma. Getting all those skills up to 2 costs 280 BP or 280 karma. So with BP you've spent almost 3/4ths of your BP allotment, and with karma you've only spent about 1/3rd.

On the other hand, if you're trying to make someone who really excels at something, you're looking at a cost of 24BP to max out a skill to 6, or 44 karma. Using the golden 2:1 ratio this is actually a fairly even number, but where you really see the difference in making a specialist is in the stat costs. Lets say you're making a troll melee brawler guy. Getting Str and Bod up to 9 in BP costs 80. Getting them up to 9 in karma however costs 300, which is absurdly more expensive (Granted I'm using the most expensive option here, but I'm just making a point).

This is why I like Karmagen. Because you certainly can make specialists, and you can make generalists, and both are very viable under the system. About the only thing Karmagen restricts is the ultra high stat trolls, orcs, and elves, and even those are doable to some extent. BP on the other hand mostly forces your hand to either leave a stat at 1 or 5, and a skill at 0 or 4 or 6.

I just feel that Karmagen creates much more real characters, ones with 3s and 4s in alot of stats with an occasional 2 or 5. It creates characters with a smattering of 1s and 2s in skills not because they are vital, but for much more RP reasons (Under karmagen I am very likely to pick up a couple points in Artisan to represent my character liking to draw or paint or play guitar or had piano lessons when she was a kid or whatever, but generally won't consider it in BP because those same 4 points could go to something exceedingly more useful).

Karmagen also encourages you to take specialties in your skills (Cost of 2 karma vs 2 BP so you want to avoid buying them with BP) which is once again very realistic. In general someone may only be passable at shooting with 'longarms' but very good at shooting a hunting rifle. Or they might be okay at running in general, but they were on the track team as a sprinter, so they are much better at that. And so on. I've heard some GMs say how they were wary of allowing too many specs, but the truth is that specs are how most people really do operate. They are okay in a general area, but they really only practice one particular area.
Ancient History
In every game system, there are limitations. In SR these are things like skill caps, maximum attributes, and minimum Essence before you die. Min-maxers are roll-players that build their characters to maximize their dice pool in one or two specific areas, taking advantage of all possible modifiers to increase their dice pool until they achieve those limitations and so are numerically "the best" in their chosen area, usually at the expense of other skills, attributes, and equipment.

Shadowrun is the kind of system where min-maxing is, if not encouraged, then implicitly seen as a "fair cop." If a character wants to max out their Strength and Close Combat Skill Group, and they have the points to do it, then Ghost bless. The reason this seems grossly unfair (or at least unsporting) is because a) a beginning character can start out at the "pinnacle" of ability in a particular skill or attribute, with little room or no room or need for improvement and b) in most of the chargen systems (barring an errata'd Karmagen) the costs to do so are lower to do so at chargen than during actual gameplay.

In classic Dungeons & Dragons, everybody starts off at 1st level. There is literally almost nowhere to go but up. In Shadowrun, your beginning character can be a world-class assassin if your budget your points right. Granted, they probably wouldn't be able to do much else; they may even be a quadriplegic assassin rigger named Snowdonia Foxx that has to double-tap her opponents through her drone-rifles, but the option to be "the best of the best" is still available to the character.

Some people don't like this. Some people haven't taken the time to understand this. Personally, I'm kinda cool with it. There is not a one of us here that doesn't have the potential to be fabulous at some area of life, be it ice sculpting or gravedigging; whether we actually take the time and effort, and make the sacrifices, that require such dedication is something else. So while I do feel like nerfing the pornomancer build, it's only because it seems like an unreasonable exploit on the system, not because exploiting the system by maximizing your dicepool is wrong.
Glyph
While I still wish you weren't able to start out as the absolute best, I like how the system subtly encourages you to stop just short of that point, by making those last points disproportionately expensive.

But I think you, and some other people, get your notions of min-maxing from looking at botched builds from would-be-powergamers. The truth is, you can be very good at your chosen area without sacrificing in other areas. Builds such as mages, hackers, and covert ops specialists are actually more tight in other areas, since their "specialties" are entire sets of skills, along with gear and/or spells.

The pornomancer "fix" amuses me, because I rarely hit that limit, even with my purer face builds. Although the fix they really need to do is for empathy software, which, even as a bit of a powergamer, I find cheesy.
Cain
QUOTE
Shadowrun is the kind of system where min-maxing is, if not encouraged, then implicitly seen as a "fair cop." If a character wants to max out their Strength and Close Combat Skill Group, and they have the points to do it, then Ghost bless. The reason this seems grossly unfair (or at least unsporting) is because a) a beginning character can start out at the "pinnacle" of ability in a particular skill or attribute, with little room or no room or need for improvement and b) in most of the chargen systems (barring an errata'd Karmagen) the costs to do so are lower to do so at chargen than during actual gameplay.


I have to disagree.

As my roommate would put it, the whole *point* of an advancement system is to see your character improve. Otherwise, you may as well be playing a first-person shooter. Advancing your character is part and parcel of playing a roleplaying game. The only other RPG I play that doesn't have a character improvement system is Wushu, where the action is much more high-flying than Shadowrun, and still IMO suffers from the lack. In Wushu, nothing is impossible unless Vetoed; in Shadowrun, there are things that are things that your character cannot do, and due to the advancement/chargen caps, will never be able to do.

More importantly to me is the huge variability in characters. It's easy to accidentally nerf your character in Shadowrun, or accidentally overpower it. Both are a serious problem once play begins. I don't have to tell you what an issue an over- or under-balanced character can cause. A good character system will encourage balanced characters, where even a min/maxed character won't steal too much thunder from the other players. Also, it will even things out, so that skill at building characters won't be such an unbalancing factor. For example, I was frustrated when I played Exalted, because I couldn't make a character who could compete as well. I didn't realize the importance of some things like a Perfect Defense and a high mote pool. In SR4.5, there are just as many unbalancing tricks and exploits.

What's more, a good system is easy to use. All the SR 4.5 build systems are tricky, fiddly, complex, and difficult to use. If you don't know the tricks of the trade, you could end up with a subpar character quite easily. They take a long time to create characters in, encourage twiddling down to the most minuscule level, and are generally a mess to work with. You can't create a character in reasonable time without a spreadsheet; and even then, you spend too much time fiddling with too many variables to be really fast. This is as bad as HERO or GURPS, where character creation can take days.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Cain @ Feb 20 2010, 03:01 PM) *
You can't create a character in reasonable time without a spreadsheet; and even then, you spend too much time fiddling with too many variables to be really fast. This is as bad as HERO or GURPS, where character creation can take days.


I'd have to second this. My shadowrun characters are never complete, even post first session (hell, three weeks in I noticed that my character had a stat that was below the minimum for his race and Damnien's sheet hadn't highlighted the cell as a problem, suddenly I had to scramble and find 20 BP to make up the difference, 20 BP on a character that was already tightly strapped for BP to the point of having his single highest skill at 4 and everything else at 1s and 2s*).

*I've also found myself continuously rolling a higher dice pool than I should, by accident, on account of doing two things:
1) Mystic Adept (rolled 5 magic instead of 3 for casting spells one session--notably though it didn't matter, as none of them are combat spells and low enough force that I was shrugging off the drain anyway)
2) Adding 5 dice for edge, not 3 (due to two factors: 1) having never before had a character that did not have 5 edge as well as 2) reading the "magic" line in the sheet!)
I've edited the sheet now where I have magic split out into two parts and have created a spot for "current edge" so hopefully I won't do either again.
Ancient History
Not to be a pill Cain, but I don't see where any of what you've said disagrees with what you've quoted.
Cain
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Feb 20 2010, 12:14 PM) *
Not to be a pill Cain, but I don't see where any of what you've said disagrees with what you've quoted.

Fair enough.

SR4.5, according to you, sees extreme min/maxing as a "fair cop". Starting at the absolute pinnacle of achievement is fine and dandy, if I read your post correctly. But not being able to advance runs counter to the entire point of having an advancement system. You may as well be playing HALO.
Karoline
QUOTE (Cain @ Feb 20 2010, 04:12 PM) *
Fair enough.

SR4.5, according to you, sees extreme min/maxing as a "fair cop". Starting at the absolute pinnacle of achievement is fine and dandy, if I read your post correctly. But not being able to advance runs counter to the entire point of having an advancement system. You may as well be playing HALO.


Even FPS games (single player mode only generally) have a vague sense of 'advancement' as you access to new weapons. You start with a crowbar, pick up a pistol, and eventually have a mini-nuke.

Once again, this is why I like Karmagen. There is no transition pain from BP to karma. If you chose something poorly in Karmagen, it didn't really cost you anything extra, because it was all with Karma in the first place. But with BP you go from '10 BP gets me from 1 to 2 or 8 to 9' and you pick the 1 to 2 and then realize you really wanted the 9 and you're set back by 35 karma. There is no 'I really want to make sure to bond lots of foci in CG with BP because they cost a couple times more to bind with karma'.

Basically there is just much more room to make your character and not worry so much about efficiency of spending your points because they are the same points you will always have. I admit there is still plenty of tweaking and going back in karmagen, but not nearly as much.

I suppose priority suffers least from tweaking but most from transition shock.
Ancient History
Okay, I get where you're coming from now.

It's a "fair cop" insofar as it's legal to do it in the context of the system - if you pay the points, you get the skill/attribute/gear/etc. In a system without a ceiling, this means that there is no "top" to get to - everyone can always get better, and the "top" is wherever you declare it to be. I kinda dislike those systems, because they lead to inflation - consider SR1 and SR2 when you had NPCs (and at least some characters) with skills up to 12 and 13 - which makes beginning characters the equivalent of 1st level D&D characters.

Which I don't like. I like the idea that you don't have to start with a character that's worthless and face certain death if you meet a challenge above your level. I like the idea that you can start out being a character you wouldn't mind watching a movie or reading a story about. I like the fact that even if you're the best there is at what you do, that is only one thing, and your character advancement can always continue. You can always buy another skill. You can always learn another spell. You can always look at the implant in the window and wonder at what could be.

That said, those are my thoughts and impressions on the system. If there's a design philosophy behind BP-gen in SR, I wasn't privy to it. If that's not the kind of system you care for, then that's your completely valid opinion.
Karoline
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Feb 20 2010, 04:28 PM) *
You can always look at the implant in the window and wonder at what could be.


Great mental image of a huge troll with all kinds of implants looking doefully at a cyber-arm covered in spikes through a window.
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