I already said I dislike being able to start out as the absolute "best" in one thing. However, I strongly disagree that this means there are no avenues for improvement for the character. The system lets you start out maxed out in one skill. But being the best there is at one skill (such as pistols) doesn't make you the best at one role (such as combat).

There was a thread where the OP wanted characters built with 800 points, the real powerhouses. It was kind of eye-opening, because it made me realize that while starting runners can be very powerful, they are not at the top yet, and have many areas that they can improve in.

This is an artifact cyberarm. All craftdwarfship is of the highest quality. It is made of steel adorned with menacing spikes of chromium and brass, encircled with bands of cat leather, and has hanging rings of gabbro and microcline. On the item is an image of the artifact "The Iron Fist," a steel cyberarm in gold. On the item is an image of a dragon, dwarfs, elves, and humans. The dragon is surrounded by the dwarfs, elves, and humans. On the item is an image of hearts in dragonbone.

For those who didn't catch the whole joke:

Part of what makes Shadowrun the world we know and love is the fact that there's always someone above you. That provides incentive to grow and advance, or at least work within a team. The one-man army concept shouldn't exist in a group role-playing game. I also disagree that having NPCs with higher dice pools makes Shadowrun characters equivalent of 1st level D&D characters-- you're still more potent than that. Higher-powered characters with slower advancement is a valid design philosophy, one that doesn't exclude the possibility of even more powerful NPCs.

Besides which, there's still certain death in SR4.5 Try to kill a great dragon or IE, and you're pretty much doomed. Face a squadron of milspec cyberzombies backed by double-digit initiates, you shouldn't expect to survive. Part of what keeps characters "gritty" is the fact that you know they'll apply enough force to kill you if you step out of line. Imagine what'd happen to all the munchkin stories if they were able to mow down the Lone Star SWAT teams that come after them.

As far as being the best at one thing goes, you can have an insanely-powerful multiple-specialist if you build the character right. A high-grade initiate can pretty much do whatever they want-- they can heal, they can kill, they can use Increase Attribute to give them power in just about every area. Mr. Lucky is worse, insofar as he's s starting character that can be good at *anything* in the pinch.

I just got back into dwarffort too.

I'm judging the Big Red Lever of Doom contest, but did make my own entry. Shows part of the final moments (due to limits on file size). Destroyed about 1,000,000* worth of produced goods and architecture. The yellow room at the very bottom kept three dwarves alive, trapped (the idea was the keep the mayor/trader/clerk/mechanic in there, but he escaped and was slain from some other means prior to fort destruction).

Cain already covered this, but I never felt like a first level character just because some NPC had a 13 in firearms and I only had a 6. With my 6 in a couple skills and my ware I easily stomped most opposition and even heavy trained forces. What is did do is allow the scary opponents the wildcats special forces, the ghosts to actually look and feel scary. In 4e, I look at the write up for ghosts and I'm like yeah so what. In 1-3e I felt like I could start off as a bad ass professional with room to grow, in 4e I feel like I can start off like the best ins something who can pick up some hobbies.

The three primary things that would make 4e better for me is remove skill caps, and look at 3eD&D and use the idea that like bonuses don't stack and then have all bonuses whether attribute or skill based be named in type, and 3 drop the TN to 4 I feel that a TN of 5 makes small amounts of dice pool differences almost meaningless.

Of course, however, the BP min-max tends towards a specialist rather than a generalist. The karma min-max tends to produce a well rounded character sans Knowledge skills. By virtue of the generalist karma min-max build, the only time he doesn't power on is in the area of Knowledge skills and not always.

Just as specialists do not need to be min-maxed or power gamed at all, neither do generalists. It is much easier to make a generalist that is power on than a specialist with the karma system.

I think the reason why many people I have talked to tend to think that the BP system produces characters that are difficult to handle is because they often blinded by the big numbers and huge number of dice that a specialist can have. They forget that there are trade-offs. Even Mr Lucky who can do everything well, can't do everything well all or even most of the time.


Actually when I read the Tir Ghosts, and compared to a character I had rustled up after my first read-through for SR4, I thought, "Now that's the way it should be." It always bothered me that there would be people coming to the table with the concept that they were ex-[some bad assed unit] but would likely be punked by one of them instead. If you were an ex-commando, now earning a living as a professional in the shadows, I feel that you should at least be equal to your ex-colleagues, stats-wise. Else you should not be earning a living but dead.

Hehe, there was another thread that got onto this same subject. Started when someone posted a character for review that was an ex-Firewatch member. The character was... decent. A good character on his own, but not firewatch material, and it opened the discussion of basically this. That it is silly to have a character that is ex-'insert awesome group here' when the character's skills are only about half that of even the 'grunt' from the group.

Anyway, yeah, I have to agree. The Tir Ghosts aren't scary because they can shoot you in the face, or because they can infiltrate anywhere, or because they have an amazing weapon. No, they are scary because they can do all of these things, and have several amazing weapons, and amazing armor, and tons of other toys, as well as having a dozen other things that they can do well.

There were some problems to the old systems that bugged the hell out of me. One is how many individuals had super high skill levels. The team had skills in the 10+ range and I though ok why are there so many super specialists at this one location. At the current game level 4 is a professional trainer with 5 and 6 being train the trainer levels. 7 is world class.

I always felt that SR4 still allows progression because you still have equipment to buy and skills to improve your usefulness. Gunnery, heavy weapons, demolitions, thrown, firearms, and close combat all for the combat specialist this ignores any daily functional life skills such as influence, drive, and knowledge skills. You go from a narrow specialist to a competent shadowrunner. The broader your skillset the smaller the team to perform missions successfully.

The other other aspect is even with the best skills in the world a bad decision will take down a character from mid level threats. One guy (stat 3, skill 2 or 3) with an automatic rifle and a grenade launcher can make your day miserable let alone a couple of teams of them. I think this is why skill advancement is less important compared to player advancement. Once the players learn how to do their legwork, implement their plan and have contigencies they are much better off. The skills just mean they can do these things faster or require less planning because the skills allow for more flexibility to the plan.

Even with super-high skill levels, you weren't the best in the world or even the neighborhood. SR4.5 changed this, to where you can be maxed out in a skill right out of the gate. If this had capped the actual power levels, this wouldn't be so bad; but the fact is, your power in SR4.5 is determined by the size of your dice pool, not your skill level.

You also can have a character who is world class in one or two areas, while being competent and functional in the others. Mr. Lucky is an example: he has a primary combat dice pool of 18, six-to-eight dice in social skills, and has skillwires for any other mundane skill he might need. He's weak against magic; but quite frankly, he's no different there than any other street samurai.

Finally, glass cannons have always been the norm in Shadowrun. Unless you're a troll tank, one sniper will ruin your day.

And I actually like the change. I liked it in white wolf and several other skill systems since the time of star frontiers. It prevents skill creep in opponents that one would find in games such as D&D. The GM at least gets an idea of where his opponents should be. There is nothing preventing the GM from imposing skill caps from the start or disallowing items at character creation.

Skillwires are expensive and a character has to have several available for unexpected situations. I am not addressing the die bonuses due to equipment as your opponents can have those fairly easily.

As for the glass cannons I actually like players not wanting to get shot. That was my problem with level based systems is players just shrugged off the monsters. In SR4 a group of 30 gang members can be a real threat, in D&D they are a nuisance. An HTR team can easily wipe characters off the map if the players aren't careful, which is as it should be.

What scares me more are players with high contacts. Connection 6 and loyalty 6 is absolutely scary. God forbid you use the group connection rules in runner's comanion. A character who cultivates these levels will ruin a game faster than a cyberzombie.

I tried to justify having Hestaby as a contact once...

The problem is, the skill caps just prevent the GM from being able to assign NPC power levels as he sees fit. You can't have human opposition with a Quickness of 12. You are just as capped as your players. As far as skill creep goes, that's merely replaced by dice pool creep. Power players will still try and squeeze every last die they can wring out of the system.

If you want an idea of where your opponents should be, impose dice pool caps. Then you can set your opposition dice pools accordingly.

What I rather like in SR, as in White Wolf, is that Attribute and Skill ratings are qualified; a given number means something specific. A skill of 3 is "professional" and 4 "veteran". Instead of being only relative; Joe has 3 and Tommy 16, what does that mean?

It allows a GM to assign stats to NPCs based on what such an NPC should have, realistically. A professional security guard could have a Perception of 3, as well as fighting skills in the 2-4 range, depending on his experience. I find that to be very convenient.

A normal result of qualified trait levels, is trait caps. I don't see a problem with that; there are limits to how good or strong someone can be.



I personally also apply the rule that your dice pool can't be more than double your Attribute+Skill. It helps to prevent the ridiculous stacking of modifiers and bonuses, and it also makes sense to me. The better you are at a given skill, the better you're able to combine the beneficial effects of modification and circumstance. An untrained klutz can use only so much of potentially advantageous effects.

That's hardly a limiter though. I mean Joe average without weapon skills can still get the full bonus from a smartgun. And in honestly most huge DPs that you see are mostly from a high Attribute + Skill in the first place anyway. Sure, the pornomancer can't get to 40+ DP, but if you use the 'max DP of 20' it doesn't really matter anyway.

I like the optional rule where you are limited to 2x your skills. This makes a big difference between skills levels. As for the really high attributes and skills I don't see a problem. A shadowrun team is usually a small group. There biggest advantages are superior skills, stealth, surprise and heavy firepower. The defenders biggest advantages are defense in depth, reinforcements and home turf. I don't need a final boss, I can throw reinforcements and have the opponents baton down the hatches.

Tactics and information mean more than high dice pools. High dice pools allow more flexibility and they do give a bigger cushion for mistakes. They however do not mean guaranteed victory. This is why I have always like skill based systems as tactics will bring down even the toughest character.

That depends. You could get tactics and information with high dice pools in the necessary areas. Good tactics and accurate information should stem from having high dice pools, unless you are willing to allow players to skate on their own knowledge and handwave it with good roleplaying.

This is why I believe it important for the first few missions with a group of players to run easy missions. Let them get used to each other, etc. I don't so much handwave as advise what is the most probable course of action by the opponents or possible defenses. However, it is still up to the players to use it properly and the more legwork the more information they can garner. Just like I can give them all the hardware, but it is up to them to figure out how to use it to maximum effect.

However, if they don't do the legwork then they can get burned very easily. There is a reason contacts and other non combat skills are so critical.

I don't get it. You'd limit a sniper with high skills to a smaller benefit from Take Aim than Joe Average? Because that's what you're doing. Someone with skill 7 and attribute 7 couldn't benefit from a smartlink, Taking Aim, or other dice pool modifiers.

Additionally, information wars are won by deckers. You're still handing that war to whomever has the highest dice pool. As for tactics, I don't like to reward player ability when character potency should be the driving factor. If you've got a player with good tactical skills, better than your own, then things are going to go their way regardless of what their character knows. That player becomes the team superstar, and you start to have spotlight time issues.

I agree. Information warfare is still a battle of having more successes. I do not like to reward poor roleplaying, using player knowledge in place of character stats. Even the player doesn't hog the spotlight, you'd still end up with the other PCs becoming that player's sock puppets.

I agree here, 2x skill alone is simply not enough. Not only will the legendary sniper™ have no use for circumstantial modifiers like aiming etc., you would also nerf security guy bob with pistols 2 and agility 3, who's just bought himself a smartlink (going from 7 dice to 4).

It will also encourage players to lower their attributes tremendously and just put it all in skill, meaning you will have guys who'd rather have pistols 6 and agility 2 than agility 5 and pistols 3 - the former means they can actually benefit from smartlink, adept improved ability etc.

Also do you (Omenowl) let specialization dice count in the skill*2 rule?

Personally I think the dice cap of 20 OR skill+attribute*2 (whichever is higher) is ok. Armor and vehicle body is an exception to this of course.

I am limiting a characters hits by his skill not the dice pool. Your sniper is limited to 14 hits and Joe blow is limited to either 4 or 6. This is a huge difference when especially when I use the range modifiers as thresholds rather than dice negatives.

I am handing the information to the person with the most knowledge. If you have the skill Corp Security specialization Ares then I think that player should get the benefit to know the tactics of an Ares HTR team. However, this does not invalidate legwork. If you expect an HTR team to protect a small corporate getaway and suddenly you find out the HTR response is 3-5 times what it should be then alarm bells should ring. The person who usually is good at tactics is called the leader. Unless you know a facilities function, blueprints and actual defenses there are still a lot of surprises for a poorly prepared group. A general knowledge only gives you an idea of how a facility would handle a situation it does not tell you all about the facility. I don't believe in blindsiding the players if their characters would have the knowledge. Otherwise those points are relatively useless if you don't at least benefit the players who take such skills.

It is still up to the players to determine their tactics, responses, etc. A character can have a knife, a grenade launcher and an assault rifle. It is up to the player to decide how to use them. And even with a good tactician the other players still have to follow the plan else Mr. Tactics is relatively useless.

My point from my post (Which seemed to get misunderstood) was that you will basically never see someone having to worry about anything if you max out the DP at (Skill+attribute)*2 because most people will already have most of their DP coming from Skill+Attribute anyway.

Essentially if you limit DP to (Skill+attribute)*2 you will never see the limit actually hit, and thus it is a meaningless limit.

I do however like the Skill*2 = max hits limit. Someone with a 4+ skill (A professional) is only very rarely going to have to worry about butting up against max hits. It also still allows for 'talented novices' in that they will basically always get their maxed two hits, but not be able to do any better because they just don't know enough of the basics or whatever.

And before anyone asks, 0 skill = 1 max hit.

As for when using edge... I don't know. I suppose you could just blow out the limit, but I kind of like adjusting it to skill*3 (max hits for no skill) when you use edge, so you can't have Mr talented lucky outdoing the grand master X with his non-existent skill in X.

And I would still limit DPs to 20 (Not soak), just because anything beyond that and you're getting ridiculous. I don't have problems envisioning that as being the point where you can't really improve any more. You're bullets already find their targets like homing missile. There is just an upper limit of what can be achieved, not just humanly possible, but physically.

Ok, that changes things. Still, I don't like the fact that joe average simply cannot kill someone in one lucky shot, no matter the circumstances. Also, how do you handle Edge? If it doesn't ignore this rule then it's often a waste of time. Exploding sixes is supposed to mean something.

Also note that by having penalties from range etc. increase threshold instead is pretty much the same as tripling the penalty, except chances of glitching/auto fail does not increase. For range it could be appropriate, since Sr4A changes them to -1/-3/-6. Otherwise it should work fairly well, although to not make penalties too bad I prefer to add bonus dice to the enemy in opposed tests instead. Thus a long-range shot would give give an enemy bonus dice for defense. Hmmm... it gets a bit tricky when the opponent is suprised thoughm ah well.

How do you work bonus dice? Would you need 3 aim actions just to make up for medium range penalty? Or do you only increase threshold if negative dice exceeds bonus dice?

Let me throw this out there: would y'all still be bitching if the maximum skill available at chargen was 5 instead of 6/7?

I think I'll use that, it sounds much neater.



I'd say there's an upper limit to what bullets can physically do, yeah. If you need more, perhaps time to switch to a different weapon.

This also fits with the idea of keeping numbers tied to meaning; i.e. letting a particular dice pool size be worth "amateur", "professional" or "elite" for such an undertaking.





Well, he could kill someone in one shot. However, if joe average tries to kill a ninja with one lucky shot, he better hope the ninja is unlucky in his Reaction, too.




I'd let Edge bypass this limit, but I'm somewhat stingy when it comes to people regaining Edge. It's precious, so it can be powerful.

I'd think it is possible to see that limit hit for characters who rely on equipment alot.

First Aid: Logic 3, Skill 1, medkit rating 6= 10 dice... 2 over the limit. (Not counting negative modifiers which are common).

Of course not an issue if you allow up to 20 cap in addition. The rule is only a point if A: it allows attr.+skill*2 or 20 cap, whichever is lower. Or B: High Force spirits and Dragons with insane stats. Force 12 Spirits comes to mind (and are allowed almost right after chargen). So although it seems redundant, it's an ok additional cap.

Actually the only reason I would like a cap at all is because it is possible to get obscene amounts from dice OTHER than attr+skill. The former has natural caps already with augmented maximums and skill cap 6/7.

Ok, that changes things. Still, I don't like the fact that joe average simply cannot kill someone in one lucky shot, no matter the circumstances. Also, how do you handle Edge? If it doesn't ignore this rule then it's often a waste of time. Exploding sixes is supposed to mean something.
Edge Dice Ignore the Limits.That means Joe Average with Skill 2 ,Attr 3 and Edge 4
could have 4+4=8 Successes even with the optional Rules
that means a Light Pistol could make 12 Hits = Exitus

whose Dances know no Lmit
Medicineman

Notably having a medkit avoids this issue because the medkit's rating over-rides the skill with regards to capped hits. Under the skill caps hits rule you could not heal some one unless you had a skill of 2, regardless of where your dice were coming from. But the skill itself has a limit on how many boxes you can heal (equal to skill) so beyond skill of 2 (e.g. 3+) it doesn't matter that your hits are capped at skill*2 because your capped even lower at skill+2 (which if you have a medkit, the medkit's rating is used instead, if higher).



I actually wouldn't mind that.

Well, if using the (Skill+Attribute)*2 or 20DP you would need to take the lower of the two. I think you'd have to try very hard to make a character that could ever hit the higher of the two (Even pornomancer gets a large portion of his pool from Cha+Con if I recall)

And as someone else pointed out, medkit allows you to use its rating as your skill, so you don't even have to worry about capping out with that either.

I think if I ever try running a game again I'll use Max Hits = Skill*2 and Max DP = 20(Except soak (And possibly full melee defense) and edge lets you break the cap, though possibly only adding up to a max of Edge DP to the cap or Edge*2). Skill 0 = 1 max hit. Edge use raises max hits to Skill * 3 and Skill 0 = 2 max hits.

I think this does alot of good things. It stops crazy 30+ DPs which make the game mostly pointless because you'll always succeed unless GM tells you you fail. It gives some more importance to skills while still allowing for talented novices, and it doesn't unduly hinder any kind of professional. It also allows for edge to be meaningfully used without making it an instant win for someone trying to do something they have no idea about.

We'll always be bitching. You know that




Fairly neat, yes, and can prevent the pr0n-o-mancer with 15 hits on negotiation.

He could kill someone in one shot if it was a dying toddler with body 1 already on fire....(although with the extra threshold from shooting at a small target...

Let me see...ares predator, regular ammo, unhurt target with body 2.

No matter how many dice he shoots with, with pistols 1 he cannot get more than 6 damage in one shot.. not enough to kill anyone (minimum 9 wound boxes).

Even a neotiny (or whatever it is called) has minimum 7 boxes. So yep, can't even kill a child with one shot from a gun. Still, people are much more resilient to gunfire in SR than in RL anyway.

..unless he spends Edge, of course. It makes sense or a rookie shooter in a bad situation to use Edge to shoot his way out.

Maybe some houseruling makes sense here; civilians aren't prepared to be shot, and are likely to go into shock. If they glitch their damage resistance test, they start taking damage as if in Damage Overflow mode. If they glitch critically, they also lose consciousness immediately. (Not too unlikely with 2-3 dice on a damage resistance test)

This applies to civilians not hardened to violence; PCs, gangers and cops are somewhat less fragile.

Yes, but unlimited potential hits means that even someone untrained can kill with a gun, if he gets enough bonus dice from circumstances (aim, point blank, smartlink etc.) This house rule makes that less likely or impossible without edge. I think compared to say D&D SR is fairly lethal even if a single bullet from a pistol is unlikely to kill (which isn't that far from RL).




Well I'd like an alternative to edge. Joe average is likely not to have any personal edge and may have a professional rating of zero (non-combatant), which essentially means, he's out of luck.

And by RAW there is no need to houserule this as the system already allows for unlimited number of hits on everything but magic. Sure, dice pools limits but they can be improved by circumstances.

Also keep in mind that combat experience by RAW does not limit the ability to survive wounds, only body and armor does. It may cause people to have to make Composure checks but thats it. Also, if you're gonna nerf civillians not hardened to violence, you should nerf hackers, riggers and (non-combat) mages as well. In my experience this is not necessary.


PS I use optional rule from Augmentation so anyone can die from taking 7 damage in one shot, and people without edge may do so automatically. I haven't really found a use for "mook rules" in SR yet, although I might consider it if I'm running large fights, in which case it will be gangers and low-level security that has limited number of wound boxes.

Draco: I didn't even think about this cap actually nerfing the First Aid skill itself (which by default requires 2 hits to stabilize and 3 hits to do anything else). Even if you can use kit as skill, it means your normal security guard with first aid 2 and medkit 2 (cheap small one) cannot heal any damage and can just stabilize. Someone with basic first aid skill of 1 (which is still more than most people have) and a rating 1 kit wouldn't be able to do ANYTHING. While per normal rules, with a decent Logic he would still be able to stablize and maybe even heal a box if lucky.

So to sum up - the problem with this rule is that it nerfs average joe more than it nerfs mr super shadowrunner. And really poor joe is crappy enough as it is. If we want to nerf mr. superrunner then we should think of a better way - the 20 dice cap seems much better here.

First:

Medkit rating does not replace the skill. You still get the dice from both.

Second:

The limit is on "boxes healed" not "hits." A medkit rating 1 can get up to 3 beneficial hits (healing 1 box), as can skill 1. What I was saying that even if you're calling hits at skill*2, the medkit rules text would override and supersede those general rules with this specific rule. All I was saying was you have to keep this in mind or you're seriously taking away the ability for "light" medics to do any good.

So, if you have a high skill then it just acts as a DP bonus, if you have no/low skill then you get to make the medkit's rating as you're skill. This means that Joe average at home can use a low rating medkit (1) with no skill to manage very basic care. This makes sense, a rating 1 medkit seems to me like a box of band-aids with picture instructions on how to use them, you shouldn't be able to reset bones with something like this unless you have the personal training to know to grab a nearby stick and use the bandaids to bind the stick in place and so on.

This also means a fairly clueless person with a decent set of medical supplies and a half-way decent AR instruction booklet (Say rating 3) can bind a serious wound, and maybe even set a broken bone or something.

And of course if you are a trained medic, then having the latest and greatest in medical tech handy along with a dedicated auto-doc program that reminds you not to forget to do X before you do Y is just icing.

Sounds like it works out fairly well overall even leaving the Skill*2 = max hits alone. And honestly who has anything less than a rating 6 medkit?

NPCs....


Hmm somehow I was thinking hits=skill/rating, not *2. It makes sorta sense but I don't mind the fact that average joe with a rating 1 first aid kit and logic 2 actually gets lucky once and heals a single box of damage.

In real life, a lot of people. A rating 6 medkit would be like a backpack (even this I'd say would only be a rating 4*). In shadowrun, everyone.

*Four pounds, 15 x 9 x 7 inches, intended for hiking (reduced supplies volume).

Well yeah, IRL most people have the equivilent of Rating 1 (Boxes of bandaids and bottles of rubbing alcohol) or Rating 2 (An actual medkit with some gauss and such). But in SR times you're literally looking at the difference between a box of band-aids and a personal doctor for a few hundred nuyen. I would think even poor people (Perhaps especially poor people) would have high rating Medkits. The real question is if you have a Savior Medkit or a regular one. Not that the Savior actually seems to give any sort of actual benefit over the much cheaper rating 6 medkit.

As pointed out, this nerfs medkits and Edge rather severely. You literally cannot get a lucky roll, even with the best equipment and Edge.

I don't know what the roll is to resuscitate someone would be; but in real life, you can do that with an AED, which requires all the trained skill of a monkey. All you do is apply pads and press a button. Assuming a Rating 6 Medkit, an average Intelligence, and a moderate Edge, we're talking 12 dice to push a button. Saying that they cannot score even a single success under those circumstances seems a bit harsh, don't you think? And don't tell me that you have yet another exception; a rule, house or otherwise, with a pile of exceptions is ludicrous.


Yes. That actually makes the problem worse, because the distance between "aware" and "Best in the World" is even more compressed.

Right. There's really no reason not to spend the 500. I almost think that medkits should be more along 1-3 * 100, 4-6 * 500.

3000 for a R6 medkit isn't expensive, but it does mean that "most people" wouldn't have one floating around. Especially if they have "limited numbers of uses."

I think what he was getting at was a lower starting skill at character generation (0-5 with 6 and 7 available after character starts), not a lower total skill (0-5)... This would actually work well for me, as this is generally the default for my characters anyways... Skill 5 is exceedingly skilled in Shadowrun by the Fluff... hell, I am still trying to get all of my currebt character's skills (almost 300 karma acquired) to a 3, let alone anything higher than a 5 (1 have 2 fives and a 4)...

So yeah, I like it myself...

Keep the Faith

That still wouldn't help.

Using the current (4.5) rules as a guideline, that only subtracts 1 from the already-oversized dice pools. That wouldn't even make a dent in the pornomancer, and would only mildly inconvenience a Mr. Lucky or other maxed character. What it would do is increase the value of min/maxing out a single extra die. That makes the problem worse, not better.

Well, the Medkit can use it's rating to replace (nonexistent) skill. So that means hits limited to Medkit Rating * 2 or First Aid * 2. In such cases I'd let the highest total count.

In your example, you'd be either limited to 12 successes (Medkit), or some alternate limit (Edge). Not too harsh, I'd say.

In roughly the order of the thread title. BP lets them get the most customization out of their characters - and since I get to veto anything I don't like, or add/remove neg qualities based on their sheets, it makes for the most interesting characters. Karma tends to make better rounded characters, which are great for a quick creation when you just want to get down to brass tacks. I just don't like priority. TOo solid and inflexible for my tastes.

Which doesn't matter.

Medkit ratin 6 will only let you heal 6 boxes worth of damage, which you need 8 hits for, which is less than your proposed "rating*2" number of 12 hits.



That "fix" wasn't an attempt to reduce inflated dice pools, it was an attempt to alleviate the issue of "having no room to grow" in a character's primary occupation.

Most of the rules I mentioned are part of the optional rules given in the book.

Several different issues came up:

One is the limit on successes makes Joe blow even worse. Yes, this is somewhat intentional. He is not doing aimed shots and most are firing at medium range as extreme range just is not going to happen. To me this is more realistic when you think of the average soldier in combat. Most of his bullets are not going to hit. This is why I use the ranges as thresholds. I do however make the shooting unresisted. Dodge and gymnastic just subtract from the die pool or add to the threshold depending on what action the player decides. There are situations where I am not going to worry about the limits (I am shooting at a barn in front of me), but for combat where moving targets and confusion reigns I would put the limits in.

Edge can bypass the limit, but I use the optional rule where each time you use your edge it goes down effectively by one until the whole edge pool is refreshed/replenished.

Dealing with a pistol won't kill someone in one shot if you limit the hits based on skill. Few bullet wounds kill instantly. Most of the people shot die from shock and internal bleeding not from the initial shot itself. This is more a roleplaying choice rather than a die roll. In this case said antagonist will bleed to death without first aid rather than instant kill. I also believe most people don't fight until their last breath they instead flee. Most combats with the exception of wetwork is about neutralization rather than killing. If players want to go up to someones head and shot I don't need to roll graphic description is plenty.

I am thinking about limiting hits to the skill based upon the rating for such things as skillwires or task spirits. Maybe 1.5 for hits. Again not a limit on dicepools, but rather the number of successes.

Possibly, but really, how prevalant is this issue?

I have been playing a good long time, and have yet to see any obscene dice pools (and nothing along the craziness of the Pornomancer) in any of the 4th edition games that I have played in.

Set the understanding early and you won't ever have to deal with something like this ever. Honestly, the only time that I have ever seen Uber Level characters has been when I was a Conventions... and they were entirely ludicrous (back in 2nd and 3rd Edition days), and would have never flown at any of the gaming tables I have ever played at. I do understand that there are some people that like this style of play, but really, how prevalant is it at most peoples tables?

Keep the Faith

I would as it would do very little to solve the problems I have with it. Sure this allows a smidgen of character growth in your skills but not much.

!. There should always be room to grown in your preferred skill.
2. There should always be a way for the GM to say this guy is better at X skill than you, this is something to strive for.
3. The weight of usefulness of skill to attribute value should be roughly equal, right not attributes are ridiculously more important and better. allowing attributes to apply dice for a multitude of skills could be balanced by skills having unlimited potential.
3a. I always like the stories about the experienced old dude vs the young amateur with natural talent, in SR4 that story is dead they already answered it, talent and attributes is what matters experience and skill don't.
4. Magic is unlimited in growth even if it is expensive, mundanes should be allowed to have unlimited growth as well.
5. At the high end too few dice in your pool come from skill, attributes will probably provide more and all the +X dice from cyber and magic provide and even larger pool. Cyber and magic are cool to add a few extra dice, but when they provide more than the skill it gets lame IMO.

The problem with skills is that, as Cain said, they are too compressed for the range they are supposed to cover, and also, they are hard capped at a level that can be reached at character creation. The first part is the real problem - I would rather see skills limited to 6 at char-gen, but capped at 9. Being able to reach the top level of skill at character creation used to bother me more, but the system in actually fairly ingenious at making those last few points disproportionately expensive. But if you are dead set on being one of the best marksmen in the world, that option is open to you.


Regarding the discussion of dice pool caps:
I don't like the dice pool caps, because they are too vague on how to handle things like full defense, using Edge, or things such as the adept power Cool Resolve which only affect resistance rolls. Also, it is vague on whether conditional modifiers should be computed as a net bonus/penalty and applied to the dice pool, or whether the dice pool cap is after all modifiers have been applied, etc. Like many of the SR4A rules, it seems ill thought-out, a sloppy bandage rather than a good fix.

I think it would have been simpler to make a number of modifiers not stack with each other - that is the root of dice pool inflation. Although I also believe the "problem" has been blown out of all proportion by people looking at dice-pumping exercises that were never intended for serious play. I think high dice pools should be an integral part of the game - it is a game of transhumanism, where augmented people are supposed to walk all over mundane humans.