I know this isn't what you are talking about and this is ghetto low light but these seem optical to me. But maybe I am wrong.
http://www.backcountry.com/store/review/51...w-light-goggles

Is it that big of a stretch to say they improved on it in the next 60 years?

The goggles you linked to are not "Night Vision" or "Low Light Vision" enhancers. They are ski goggles which, supposedly, give better clarity than other, similar ski goggles in poor lighting conditions, such as one finds during night skiing.

The lens is made of "Plutonite", a brand name plastic which blocks UV light on all major frequencies. That's it. Maybe, maybe they provide better clarity in snow conditions at night than other ski goggles, but they sure as heck don't amplify the light. They may filter out some glare and whatnot, making it easier to process the low light conditions, but they aren't what you think they are.

~Umidori

I have a piece of cyberware that is made of Pure Fail™ and that is the Smartlink eye mod. Now before everyone calls out for my blood, hear me out. It costs 1000 and .1 Essence when taken as a standalone system, and THREE capacity when put into a cybereye. When put into a pair of contact lenses it costs 675 *, no Essence, and gives EXACTLY the same benefits.

I could see if putting it into an eye gave you full cybernetic control of the weapon, and a contact lens only gave the targeting bonus, but you had to manually control fire mode, eject the clip, etc, etc... but if you have it in a skinlinked contact lens then you have full control.

Also, think about this, Technomancers have a complex form for smartlink (that is only rating 1)... that means a hacker can make a rating 1 program that is an emulator for the smartlink display hardware and control interface. The ballistics calculation and the weapon functions are done in the weapons hardware. Sure you have to have an imagelink and a commlink to use this software, but who doesn't have those.


* == The lenses cost 100, the Image Link costs 25, the skinlink costs 50, and the Smartlink costs 500.

I wouldn't go so far as call it pure fail but I agree with you that you get nearly the same benefits with an external version.

Just because Technomancers can do something does not mean a hacker can do the same. so no Smartlink calculations on the commlink, just like there are no sprites for hackers.

A skinlink is not a DNI, it just allows the device "to send and receive data transmitted through the electrical field on the surface of metahuman skin" as opposed to radio waves or FO cable. So you would additionally need skinlinked commlink with DNI.
There are actually prototypes of such systems in RL, like this, though the proposed use cases are not file sharing, but things like exchaging business cards with a handshake or transferring music to your earphones


Not every Resonance handwavium can be emulated by technical means.

Nearly? What can't you do with an external version that you can do with a cyberware version?



Sorry Sengir, you don't need a commlink to run the smartgun via DNI. The Smartlink hardware in the contact lens does all the interfacing for you. The only reason I included the skinlink is that I was "hardening" it verses hackers. Turn off the wireless in the gun and the lenses and your gun can't be hacked.

-------------------------------------------------------



Actually if the Technomancer was using a Sprite to do the smartlink interface then I would agree with both of you 100%, but since it is only a complex form program then a hacker could do the same thing.

You mean to say, that a hacker can't cobble together a program to take the existing ballistics information fed from the weapon and translate it in such a way as to appear on a standard device like an Image Link overlay? It's not like Smartlink is a proprietary tech, everyone uses it and has for years.

The only reason to say that this couldn't be done is because of rules balancing. It certainly makes sense that one could just keep an emulation program running on ones comlink to serve the purpose of the hardware.

Also, can't you just use a trode net to send mental commands to the weapon? Just a neural to digital interface should be all that's required..

Actually there have been cases of optical low-light binocs, they were used in the 2nd world war for example. However they were much much weaker than Image Intensifiers and thus normal lights were preferred.

But in SR4 rules you can get Low-light vision in cybereyes and they work just fine for the mage, electronic or not. The Rules are simpler than reality. Binocs with vision magnification can specifically be optical, but not the same with low-light vision.

So when building a mage you're better off picking an orc, dwarf, elf or troll... or simply sacrificing some Essence.

in the long term high grade Muscle replacement + synaptic booster costs less nuyen and less essence than muscle toner + muscle augmentation + high grade wired reflexes

Which is your own assertion not supported by the rules at all. Just because something cna be emulated by a complex form does not mean it can be emulated by a program. Complex forms are complex forms which can emulate a large number of technical functions, however that's not to say that these technical forms can be emulated by other technical means.

Personally the more 4th edition progresses the more I despise trodes and their use. Someone with skinlinked goggles but no trodes or AI gloves has no ability to manulate the link whether it is for their smartgun or their AR interface, too many people see skinlink and totally misunderstand what it does and what it allows.

To support Makki claim, I did the calculations. I used Betaware because runners can get Betaware, but getting Delta...

Muscle Replacement 4 costs 80,000 and has an Essence cost of 2.80. Synaptic Booster 3 costs 480,000 :nuyen and has an Essence cost of 1.3125. The total cost is 4.1125 Essence and 560,000

Wired Reflexes 3 costs 400,000 and has an Essence cost of 3.50. Muscle Toner 4 has an Essence cost of 0.56 and costs 128,000 . Muscle Augmentation 4 costs 112,000 and has an Essence cost of 0.56. The total cost is 4.62 Essence and 640,000

With Makki's setup you save 80,000 and 0.5075 Essence.

Lurker, I didn't put the skinlink on to make the DNI, I put the skinlink in to make it hacker proof. All you need to control a smartgun is a pair of 675 contact lenses. The smartlink hardware in the contact lenses does the DNI.

You want to blame someone... blame Catalyst.

As for the Technomancer and complex forms being "handwavium", I'm sorry but I throw the bullshit flag. Sprites are Handwavium Unobtainium. Complex forms are just another way of saying programs.

Still, there is no point in claiming that for every Complex Form a similar Program exists. It's not even the other way round, see Biofeedback Filter.

Ah... How do you get software to make a DNI connection?
The hardware (i.e.: contact lenses) is not a DNI device so there is nothing in them that can read brainwaves. So how do you get a bunch of 1's and 0's to make DNI?
You need an actual DNI device (internal commlink, datajack, trodenet) to make your system work. The smartlink software does not allow DNI in any device it is installed in.

Where is the DNI on a contact lens? Or for that matter, on a commlink the character is holding in his hand?
also notice how the description of the smartlink vision enhancement only mentions various displays projected into the user's FOV. If you want DNI, you need implants or a trodenet.



Complex forms are far more than programs, see the simrig for example.
If you want an IC explaination, a TM's neural structure is different from that of a metahuman so he can do the stuff that is normally hardwired into a chip.
OK, I admit the OOC reason makes more sense: If it was a simple program everybody would have it (with trodes) and the rules could as well give a flat +2 to every firearm dice pool.

You know, a +2 AR-Bonus for a smart firearm woulnd't have been that bad. The SmartLink is a bit of an antique.

IIRC the AR bonus for driving is only +1. Why would an AR bonus for shooting give more? Yes, the variables for shooting (gravity, wind, etc.) are pretty well known and could be compensated for easily. However, you would thing that with the interconnectivity between cars that the AR bonus would be much greater.

Because the information provided by the SmartGun and displayed by the SmartLink is nothing but AR.

I think you missed the first part of my post.
The information provided to a driver from Gridguide (if installed) and the vehicles own computer (sensors, pilot and WiFi connectivity to the surrounding cars) only provides a +1 bonus for driving. (Again, IIRC, I am at work and lack books.) Why should an AR smartlink provide more? Why should a regular smartlink for that matter? (Other than the established +2 bonus, which does not make sense when looking at it from a driving point of view.)

*EDIT* Then again... This is way off topic. More of a rant really... Sorry.

The bonus for driving in AR could be bigger, indeed.

Well, the variables in driving involve a lot less certainty. Bullet dynamics are easy compared to the sort of predictive algorithms needed to figure out what's going on on the road. However, the Tacnet bonuses for tracking enemy movement giving up to a +4 bonus to hit on top of that +2 from a smartlink, now that's over the top.


As to hardware emulation being a personal ruling, completely unsupported by the rules, I can't argue against that. I've actually got a system for hardware emulation that I developed for an AI character to give him access to the sort of advantages his meat counterparts have for hacking.

OK, Mikado, how does a contact lens smartlink system control the weapon without you saying anything or DOING anything other than think it? By rules mechanics, the slot wearing a pair of smartlink contact lenses can control his weapon as well as some dumb bastard with the cybereye mod.

Now about the simrig complex form... I say that can be a complex form for technomancers and not a program that can be made by hackers because the "hardware" already exists in the technomancer himself. Without the "hardware" a simrig program would do nothing. Same thing with smartlink, the hardware is in the gun, you're just making an interface so that you can control the weapon.

Finally, Biofeedback filters not existing for technomancers... it comes built into their "system". Like a hacker can't run two versions of a program and have them stack (ie Armor program), hackers can't run biofeedback filters twice and have those stack.

"Look at the ammo indicator and blink three times to change ammo types."

By rules mechanics someone with contacts gets the same bonus to hit a target as someone with cybereyes because that requires no input from the user. It just shows where your bullet will go automatically, no need to tell it anything. Might even pick up on movement automatically and provide a lead image to aim at.

In order to make the smartlink actually do anything actively like eject a clip or change ammo type on multifeed weapons or revolvers or whatever else, you need to have some means of controlling it. That could be by hitting a button on your commlink, by some kind of special blinking or eye movement, or by a DNI, but smartlink doesn't provide DNI.

Simsense, internal commlink, data jack, and trodes are the only means of obtaining DNI (And I could be wrong about the simsense, it might require a DNI). Smartlink in no way provides a DNI on its own.

By RAW, the smartlink vision enhancement "interacts with a smartgun system (p. 322) to project the weapon’s angle of fire into the user’s vision, centering red crosshairs where the user is pointing and highlighting perceived targets. The smartgun’s laser rangefinder also calculates and displays the distance to the target. Additional data from the weapon, such as the ammunition level, heat buildup, and stress can also be displayed".

Cyberware, on the other hand, can be controlled via DNI (change linked device mode action).

A few people already answered your post but I just wanted to point out that one word.

"Control"
Under no circumstances does your device allow DNI control over the weapon. While I would agree that you would get the +2 bonus (just like smartgoggles) you would not have the ability to change device modes and such that a true DNI smartlink allows.

OK everyone, in SR4A, pg 333 refers to the smartlink vision enhancement, pg 340 says this about the cyberware eyemod "An implanted version of the smartlink enhancement (pg 333)"

ON pg 322 it talks about what you can do with a smartlinked weapon. In NONE of the three parts that I looked at does it say that you need to have cyber to control the weapon. Here is the passage that tells me that the smartlink vision mod does it's own DNI (pg 322 SR4A):

"It allows a smartlinked character to mentally switch between gun modes, eject clips, and fire the gun without pulling the trigger. The camera allows for targeted shooting around corners, without exposing oneself to return fire."


The text does NOT change from SR4 to SR4A. Now everyone, please tell me that I misread this and that I'm wrong. Go ahead. Point out to me where it says that you need cyber to control the weapon mentally. In fact the description of the smartlink does NOT refer to the cyberware version, but to the VISION ENHANCEMENT version. So how am I wrong?

Did I say you were wrong?

The vision mod one just mentions that it interacts with the system explanation on pg. 322. In the vision mod description it only states what the vision mod does, and says nothing about the proposed abilities of a DNI linked device.

The vision mod section also mentions that they are wireless capable, and may be wired directly into someone. This supports lack of DNI on any of the vision devices.

Also, in the description of proposed DNI only functions of smartweapons in the combat section, (like dropping a magazine) it states that they must be linked, and use a mental command. So unless you have somewhere for the wireless signal on that contact to go (trodes, datajack) it will only interact with the gun for targeting purposes.

No, you didn't, but others have.



Wrong! On pg 323, it says that if you have the smartlink receiver hardware (a vision enhancement that is in some vision device [contacts, glasses, goggles, cybereyes]) then you can mentally control the smartgun. Read it yourself. I gave the pages as my proof. YOU have anything to disprove the text?

Edit: I also did put a skinlink on the contacts so that I didn't need to have a wire to the gun... the user's body acts as the wire.

The only thing I have to disprove you is the same examples you are referring too

Obviously we have different interpretations.

Under my understanding:
The Skinlink is good IMO, but would still need some manner of DNI to communicate with the users brain. As it stands it can relay the signal from the gun to the contacts, allow vision of its AR compnents, but to send mental commands, like dropping the magazine or changing weapon modes, you need some form of mental connection. There are basic rules for this concept throughout the book, even if it does not specifically refer to smartlinks.

I know you disagree with me, and i respect that. But can you provide any evidence that smartgun vision mods provide a DNI? And if so, why would people bother with Datajacks or Trodenets?

The word "implanted" is important here. Implants have a DNI which allows them to be switched on and off or otherwise controlled with a free action.


A standard trigger allows you to fire a weapon by moving your index finger. However, if you have no way to reach the trigger with your index finger, you won't fire the weapon with a standard trigger. Now replace "index finger" with "mind" and "trigger" with "smartlink".

Okay, lets read shall we?



This is the description you get under the vision mod. Notice that it very specifically states exactly what it does. It states that it projects the weapon's angle of fire into the user's vision. It displays the distance to targets. It shows various bits of weapon information such as ammo level and heat buildup. Nowhere does it say anything at all about giving you any form of direct control over the weapon what-so-ever.

What you are going off is the mention under the smartgun system of:
SR has plenty of rules for how it is possible to do things mentally. I'm 99.9% sure that this was intented to be read 'if you have a way to control something mentally, you can do these things mentally, instead of having to do them manually' not 'this equipment (on your guy) gives you mystical brain control over your weapon'.



"Smartlink system" seems conspicuously absent as a form of DNI.

I suppose if you really really want to stretch yourself, you can read RAW to say that your smartlinked binoculars give you a DNI, but don't expect any GM to ever agree with you based on the arguments you've come up with.

Uh, Karoline, I gave the page numbers from SR4A... On pg 311 (of SR4A) it talks about concealing gear and adapting gear to non human sized people.

Please re-read the pages that I gave. and then get back to me. I gave the pages because I know that people would want to make sure I'm not pulling a fast one on them.

=======================

@Sengir: The smartgun system refers to the vision enhancement system as the receiver. The Cyberware eye mod refers to the vision enhancement system. The cyberware system does NOT say that you have anything better because you have the cyber version. It fact it only says that it's an implanted version of the vision enhancement system.

The smartgun vision enhancement says that you can MENTALLY control the smartgun. It's on the page that I gave. It is in black and white and is RAW. If you house rule it otherwise that's fine, but the rules are there.

As a GM, I would. Because a smartgun system does not differentiate between the implanted version of the smartlink and the vision enhancement version. In fact by its very description for the implant version, I would say that it is mechanically indistinguishable from the vision enhancement. Whatever functionality you choose to ascribe to the implant should apply to the vision enhancement and vice versa. For SR4A, I have not found any reference that states that either versions of the smartlink perform differently from the other. For SR3 and before, I would be inclined to agree that there are mechanical differences but not for SR4.

For SR3 and earlier* there was an induction pad in your hand that linked you to the weapon and if you were not holding the weapon in THAT hand (or had a optic cable connecting to your datajack) then you did NOT get the bonus. In SR4 you use wireless (or skinlink) to communicate with the weapon and THAT is why I think that a hacker (in SR4) can make a program to control the smartgun... all the hardware is in the gun, and none of it is in the person.

* == this is if I remember correctly.

I don't have an SR4A book, just regular old SR4. AFAIK what they say hasn't changed between books, just where they say it. So, going off that, the vision mod (As I already said) Makes no mention what-so-ever of being able to mentally control anything, or of granting DNI, or of having the ability to do anything at all other than display a HUD of your weapon and where it is pointing.

The only place mentally controlling anything appears is in the smartgun system, which as I said before, I believe makes the assumption that you have some means (DNI) of doing mental manipulations in the first place. Now, if you'd like to quote me where in SR4A they've changed it to say that the smartgun vision modification directly allows for mental control of the weapon, then you might have a point, but otherwise your argument is flimsy at best.



You are correct, but as I'm pointing out, the smartgun vision modification doesn't make any direct mention of mental control over the gun. Thus neither the implanted version or the contacts version give you direct mental control over the gun. However, cybereyes do give you a DNI, and that DNI (Or any other form of DNI) in combination with the smartgun system and the smartgun vision mod (Cyber or contacts) allow you to mentally command the gun.

Simply put, you need a DNI to communicate with devices mentally. That is like everywhere in the main book.

So, you either have one of two arguments:

1. You still believe that vague wording means that for some reason smartlinks are magical and don't require a DNI.

2. You believe that smartlink systems bestow DNI.

Of which there is an abundance of evidence all over the place against both.

In everyone's defense, though, in previous editions, the Smartlink System DID indeed provide that DNI Interface... as to whether or not it does so now, I do not believe that it does intrinsically, though you could make the argument that if it is installed (ie. you have the Cyberware version), it interfaces through DNI and Wireless communication protocols...

Keep the Faith

And the fact that it is an implant is what makes it better. SR4A p. 338: "In addition to wireless functionality, most cyberware devices are equipped with a direct neural interface (DNI) that allows the user to mentally activate and control their functions."


The smartgun system in the gun says it allows you to mentally control the gun.
The smartlink vision enhancement says it allows you to display all sorts of status information.
The implanted smartlink is the same as the vision enhancement, except that it is an implant and thus has a DNI (which is limited to control the implant).

So by the way I am reading this, the smartgun system can accept mental commands. However you need to be able to issue those commands, and contacts alone can't do that. If you have a trodenet and both the contacts and the trodes are linked to your PAN, on the other hand, you can issue mental commands to the smartlink as a linked device, and the smartlink will relay it to the smartgun.

Exactly. Somehow, I would have thought with all the changes to SR4A vision enhancements rules, that they would have made this a little clearer. I have a feeling that they are still struggling with "cut and paste" problems from old editions, rules by committee, and trying not to step on other writers' work. I myself don't see a simple answer.

It would be nice if someone came out with a table of what cyberware/bioware/nanoware was compatible with what, but I certainly wouldn't want to do it! As it is, it mostly works. There are some gaps in making people understand how DNI is supposed to work, especially with smartlink/smartgun systems, and Initiative and Reaction enhancements. Unfortunately, these are probably THE most used pieces of 'ware in mundane character builds!

As a GM, trying to get these concepts over to new players is a headache, as the book is not a lot of help.

In any case, back on topic!

I like MBW for power-gaming, but I am DEFINITELY looking at bringing TLE into the mix in my campaign, since two of my four players have it now. To tell the truth, it is the implanted skillwires I have the most issues with...

Worst 'ware: hm, there are a lot of bad choices out there, but I have to say Boosted Reflexes is pretty bad.

Uh, Squinky, didn't the fact that I pointed out the pages and the passages that specifically say that a smartlink vision enhancement system (NOT the cyberware system) allows for mental command of the smartgun mean anything?

I understand what you and the others are saying, but by RAW, I can use those contact lenses that I detailed and control my smartgun mentally. It is written in the rules.

As people pointed out, the vision enhancement does not state control. The weapon accessory does.

The confusion stems from the fact that people confuse the SmartLink with the SmartGun all the time.

Instead of pointing out the pages of a book that some people don't own, how about you just quote it? No one else seems to be able to find reference to mental command under the smartgun vision enhancement, only under the physical smartgun system that goes on the gun.

And even if it does say that under the smartgun vision enhancement, that is still contingent on being able to give mental commands in the first place.

It says you can control the gun with mental commands, it does not say that it gives you the ability to make mental commands. That is reliant on something else (a DNI).

Q.E.D.

Har, but dude, those pages you refer to don't state what you say it does!

We've gone over this to death, your interpretations are different than mine, and I have used other examples to help demonstrate my point.

If my examples don't sway you, and you bring nothing new to that table beyond those page quotes, our debate is pretty much at a stalemate.

Edit----

It has been fun though, I love digging into the rules on cyber and finding out others perceptions on things. It's why I made this thread.

Honestly, I don't see the huge deal. Either get a set of trodes for FIFTY (that's five, followed by a zero) and link them up to a vision enhancement to mentally interface with the smartlink, or just assume the vision enhancement already has DNI.

Fifty. Nuyen.

Yes, it is not a big deal for 50 .

It is an incredibly large deal when you start adding up all the "little" copy/paste, poorly worded, incomplete descriptions (etc... etc...) that have gone continually without revision, errata or FAQ'ed.
Then the Dev's say things like don't use the FAQ anymore because it is outdated is beyond... something...

Well yeah, I can't really defend the devs. They're on their own there.

Does this mean that any amount of cyberware provides the function of a DNI? Like, your Wired reflexes can wirelessly interface with a sim module to give you VR access? Or do you suppose they mean a limited DNI?

If you wanted to say that the eyeware version of a smartlink provides DNI, I don't have a problem with that, I'd just have to assume that it provides that DNI through a trodnet included in the pricetag. Still, the char is going to have to wear that fugly headband like everyone else.

And this is why we wear helmets. The +1/+2 armor bonus is a nice side benefit, but they're really just there to keep you fashionable.