I've gmed for a few dozen people over the last 3 or 4 years and I've never seen it. I do a lot of one shots for college students. Only done a couple real "campaigns."

Do you now how contacts work??? They just use their own CHA and social skills for the tests. Connection is a bonus to those rolls, not the rolls themselves, and the bonus gets bigger if you are willing to throw extra money at it. Which is a laugh for inexpensive things like guns and ammo. Even your connection 1 contacts can get stuff. And if you have really bad social skills and really low CHA and absolutely no worthwhile contacts then how did you get any of your gear??? What is so special about avail 12??? This argumint works both ways I guess.

If your GM is letting you sheet up Connection 1 contacts with the social skills to march out there and practically pull an Ares Alpha from out of his ass with little delay or chance of glitching the rolls (and many of these items ARE illegal, after all), then well, I'm afraid that's your GM's problem, not mine. At my table, you're not getting someone who has that kind of pull for 2 build points. I'll be quite happy to come up with a Negotiation pool for your contacts for you. So, hate to say it, but you'd be better off just having the Face make the rolls. And if getting a hold of this gear is so easy past chargen, then why don't you just go out and get it? Oh, right, because you can't buy raw nuyen to take into play at chargen, which means availability ends up limiting what you start with and so some things do in fact end up effectively off limits if you don't want to pay the premium. Like I want them to be. So, yeah, is the cut off on availability somewhat arbitrary? Sure thing. But it's a handy and internally consistent sort of arbitrary that I like to have around in my games.

What??? So now you are ignoring the actul rules for contacts to justify it??? And are you really saying that even if you have the proper contacts, even if you have good social skills, and heck even if you are the face of the group, there's still no way to get gear above some arbitrary number either before or after chargen???

I also dont understand why you obsess about it being immidately after chargen. Yes I said that in hyperbole earlier on but even if it takes you a month or two to get it........ why couldnt you get it a month or two before the game??? Especially if you do in fact have the proper contacts, social skills, or archetype???

WHY does the super suave elf with cha 9, negotiation 6, empathy 5, kinesics 3 with mulitple connection 6 fixers limited the same way the cha 1, no skills, no gear, no powers, no edges troll??? WHY is avil 12 so magical and special???

None of your arguments hold any water no matter how many times you keep saying them yourself.

Should the GM not be the one sheeting up your contacts?

And a connections 1 contact.. should have lousy social stats.

No.

This would be a lot easier with less extra punctuation and wild conclusions though.

Why? Honestly, a connections 1 contact is just a contact who doesn't know many people (people who matter anyway).

Connection rating is not only a rating of how many people they know, it's a rating of how much pull they can exert and how much resources they can bring to bear on a problem (which is why higher Connected contacts agree more readily to higher rated favors). As such, I do not consider someone with Face level ability or better in Negotiation to be a good candidate for being a 1 or 2 Connection rating contact, given the way moving goods and influencing people works in SR4. That's not to say that low level contacts are all crap, mind you. I'm very open to people having Contacts who are chock full of knowledge skills or who have good technical skills, can loan you some nice gear or simply let you hide out at their place for the night. Just don't expect all of them to roll 6+ dice when looking for items outside of their area of expertise for you. If they can perform like a Fixer, I'll be sorely tempted to rate them like a Fixer, in other words.


Oh, hey, I missed this earlier:



That's sort of my point though. At chargen, you need neither of those. At all. I dislike that, and I find it encourages people not to worry too much about having a contact that can get them things. After all, they already somehow got that stuff in their make believe pasts. But short of starting players off naked or coming up with an even more convoluted system, I don't see many better alternatives than letting them buy things at chargen. And I'd like it even less if people just started off with whatever they wanted without any restrictions at all. Being able to get whatever you want before play even begins is just another disincentive to have appropriate Contacts and Negotiation, as far as I'm concerned.

Generally, your gear from your background is not necessarily "Purchased," it has been bought, stolen, borrowed, or even given to the character in the course of his background.

The availability sets a limit to what you can get before play starts... some things are just not available easily or quickly. Sure, you CAN attempt to get said gear immediately upon starting the game, but it will take some time, and some money... But that is okay, because you are now playing the game, and making some moves in the Shadows...

It's All Good...

Keep the Faith

I think my question mark filter overloaded, jesus.

If your contacts, whether insane 6/6 or 'useless' 1/1, can get you what you need *after* chargen, what's anyone whining about? In my games, we lower the starting gear limits to Avail 10R, because we thought 12 was already too high. If your games aren't fun without Avail 18 to start, house rule it.

You know, I was wondering that myself...

Keep the faith

OK, so you don't want to retire, because you are about social benefit, adrenaline, whatever, and don't need the cash? Take those millions and pull a "Dunklezahns Will" type move. Hire some contract runners of your own, wreck somebodies finances, set up a non profit corporation, invest in some radical new tech development, or even just buy a hell of a party. Much better investment than sinking it into your cyber-bowels, and just as distinctive. To me, big ticket delta cyber doesn't say "distinction"; it seems more like character bling that looks good because its put in the book because something has to be "the best of the best". You want distinction? Why not try running around with plain old wired 3 your whole career- that's something people will remember and talk about. I don't see why you'd need new cyber to "keep your character in the campaign"- if you can't hack the power curve, aren't there other ways to adapt?

But it's better just to play it straight. No need for crazy wills or things. Faster, better, stronger… It *is* an RPG.

I was just asking whats the difference between getting a panther assault cannon at chargen and buying one with my starting nyuen.
And i still havent gotten a real answer, Whipstitchs answer seems to be that the difference is that he can use his GM powers to stop me from getting it after chargen but not during chargen as he apparently lets his players to get what ever they want in chargen as long as its arbitraly chosen avaikebility is under the limit.

I don't understand the question. Either you can or can't get it. If you can, there's no reason to complain; if you can't, it doesn't matter either way.

Every number in the game is arbitrary at some point. It's a game. If starting availability's *suggested* number is no good for *your game*, change it.

That seems like an awfully convoluted way of saying I follow the chargen rules.

At some point you just have to draw a line.

There are a lot of other things you could conceivably want at chargen, based on your stats. You could buy a shop/facility and through that try to justify having any number of other possessions. Heck, Data Search and a nanoforge probably suffice to justify anything.

There's stuff like software; with enough skills you could plausibly program 7+ programs, but you can't start with them.


It goes on like that, but if you want to take all that into account, it becomes far harder to balance the chargen rules. Also, creating a character becomes even more work than it currently is (and it's already a lot of work.)

And you apparently skip the GM aproval stage at the end and then bitch about the gear your players got out of hammerspace of chargen.

Kinda funny that you're making baseless assumptions and implying that I'm a whiner while flouting that sig. Classy.

In the vernacular, ZING!

Thats mostly based on what you say in post 108 and nobody's perfect, one can only try his/her best to follow a credo.

I kinda regretted making my last post the second I made it, but I was kind of in a hurry to get out the door; my sister's getting married in a couple of days some I'm pretty busy. Sorry about the snippiness.


Anyway, I guess my thought is that I like the availability rules because they take some of the work of deciding what is and isn't easily acquired out of my hands and provides me some context as to what kinds of things are every day items in a low magic dystopia cyberpunk setting. Thanks to an experience I had in high school back in the late '90s, I have a somewhat dim view of my ability to figure out what kind of things everybody carries around with them. You see, our history teacher talked about how one of history's blind spots was simple every day context since by necessity you can't really record everything and then teach the majority of people about every detail. To prove the point, he once brought in a bucket of household things from his parents' house. Much of this stuff was from the 30s and 40s was roughly 60 years old or better at the time. The funny part was, we only had a 50% success rate when it came to guessing what everything was for. It makes me think that I probably don't know what things will have staying power and what things won't in such a different setting, so as imperfect as it may be, I like having Availability rules (and thus a baseline) over not having a cut off at all.

Its okey and i understand waht you like abiut the chargen availebility rules, its just kinda funny when you go "i could get a rating 2 tacsoft now, but why bother when i can get a raing 4 one few days after the game has started, possibly even before the first run" its maybe the worts with some of the thinks thats availebility changes with rating(like the fore mentiond tacsoft) and your character kinda should have one but having only rating 2 one doesnt make any sense.
Other bad offender ofcource are the cyberlimbs, troll not being able to get one that matches his natural stats just doesnt make any sense.

How do you buy a rating 4 tacsoft after char gen?
who comes out of chargen with 12,000 nuyen available?

High lifestyle and being smart and leaving 1200 unused gives you starting mnaey of 8000 -18000 to have 12k you only need to get 12 with 4D6.

We always use Karma buy builds. No unspent Nuyen allowed. That seems like alot of work just to get a tacsoft 4.

Where does karmagen say you dont use the normal rules for starting nuyen.
That tacsoft was just the firs example that came to mind, as i just yesterday thought that my Sasha(an armed escort) should probaply have one and then i looked it up and noticed the availebility of 5*rating
and desided not to get one as the rating 2 tacsoft just didn't make sense to me for her to have.

Besides, you pirate it.

Or just get it as freeware

All freeware is GM-approval, and I'd never allow TacNet freeware. But, who knows.

Get a Level 4/4 Pirate-Network as a Group-Contact
Get all soft including Skill-Soft for 10% of the List-Price.

Mongoose... You really have some odd ideas about my charactrer's motivation to run the Shadows...

There is no power curve with Delta Ware... the only thing it does is cost you less Essence and a Crap-ton of Nuyen... after receiving Delta Ware, you have exactly the same abilities as you had with Alpha or Beta Variants of that ware... as for the "Distinctive" comment, none of my 'ware is distinctive, so that is a dead end... it is now just less obvious when it comes to scanners and astral assensing...

AND, If I wanted to be a Philanthropist, I would not run the shadows... Sheesh... You want to see a Philanthropist, Have your character go and donate his cash to a needy orginzation...

As for the Party, Did that... spent 120,000 Nuyen between the 6 characters prior to the run on the Zero Zone... it was a hell of a party indeed... Lots of Drugs, Booze and Women, as well as a large number of the respectable Underworld Criminal Element...

And again... what is it with the negative comments about Keeping the Character in the Campaign? My point is that several millions is a LOT of money... I could retire on that and never run the Shadows again... or I could invest it in myself and continue to run the Shadows... I chose to Run the Shadows, and spent that money on something that would benefit me, while not going so overboard that the character is no longer fun to play; thus the purchase of the Delta Ware that has been a focus of the game (at least for me) for 2 years...

Too Each his own I guess...

Keep the Faith

Mongoose, sometimes the character can't retire.

My Chaos Mage has the "Lost Loved One" flaw. By all rights, even if I had all my 'Ware as Delta, plus a VTOL aircraft, and enough equipment to outfit an army, if I haven't found my "Loved One" then I should continue running the Shadows until either I got proof she is dead and I can't get her body for burial, or I find her.

Besides, how exactly would you like to live, retired?

All clonal replacement for your implants, completely bereft of any edge, should your sins catch up to you? Certainly not.
With your off-the-rack implants that wheren't exactly smooth before they shared the same abuse as you did over the years? Certainly neither.

Of course you want custom ware, celluar repair and possibly leonization before you retire – enjoying life is much easier if your body is in shape.

But ignore the rules after chargen so why bother with them at chargen??? Everybody seems to think its ok to have this limit but nobody seems to actual say why its the same for everyone. Why does the dimwitted hyperbole troll with CHA 1 and no social skills and no contacts have an easy time getting an ares alpha as the smooth hyperbole elf with CHA 11 and negotiations (bargain) 7 and optimized empathy 7 and 50 BP worth of high connection contacts??? And why cant the hyperbole elf get anything above that during chargen???

Also why cant a basic troll w/ bod 8 agi 4 str 8 get a basic cyberleg equal to his natural attribs (avail 14) during chargen while a weird old satyr or changeling with six legs can with ease (avail less than 12)??? Why ignore the other questions I posed earlier like why can an adept get improved reflexes 3 but a sammy cant get wired reflexes 3???

Its dumb and it doesnt balance the game at all. The actual gear and legality thereof does/should. Unless youre of the mind that the game spontanisly explodes after chargen as soon as someone gets anything above avail 12.

But ignore the rules after chargen so why bother with them at chargen???
Well If you don't like 'em, change 'em.
There Is no Rulespolice knocking down the Door,confiscating all Dice and Arresting you for "not complying to the Rules " !

Its dumb and it doesnt balance the game at all
Well SR4 is still a Roleplaying GAME and a Game needs Rules and a Frame (specially a RPG )
The Frame is (ImO) OK, not perfekt but OK and when I (My Groups) discover something wrong we change it

with a Dance in the Frame
Medicineman

Uhhhh when talking about the rules just saying ignore them and do whatever is kind of pointless, no???

I'm not Saying "Ignore Them"
I'm Saying If you don't like a particular Rule go and change it.
The Developers thought that a general availiability of 12 is OK for most of the Games
and it's ok for Me & my Groups and a lot of other groups I'm in contact with.
They're OK from my Point of View but that won't change yours
So the best Advice I can give is for You to change whatever You see as wrong

Hough!
Medicineman

I have an easy answer for you there...

The Troll did not buy the Ares Alpha, He acquired it from the Corporate Security Guard that he killed in his backstory. And complaining that Customized Cyberware is not available at character creation is a bit like me complaining that Bill gates has a Billion Dollars and that is wrong because I don't have a billion dollars. It Makes no sense when you actually examine the statement. If I want a Billion Dollars, well then I have to go earn it.

You have to remember that the character's starting equipment is not necessarily BOUGHT... it has been acquired in the course of his/her backstory... If you want something that is rated higher than the normal availability (Like the Leg in your above description for the Troll), then you pay the premium of a 5 Point Quality, which you can do up to 3 times, and Allows Availability up to a 20.

It is not DUMB, as you so eloquently pointed out... It is how it is... Since you don't like it, you are free to change it to the way that you like... The avalability cap is there to provide a framework for character development, and nothing else.

Keep the Faith

They can. There just happens to be a disincentive and a few limitations involved. The fact of the matter is that archetypes and races are intended to be different from each other, which means mechanically they'll have advantages and disadvantages when pursuing different progression paths. Apparently trolls are at a disadvantage when it comes to acquiring items that are tailored to them. It doesn't particularly bother me, since Shadowrun fluff indicates that trolls are a minority that still occasionally gets arrested for the crime of having horns and dermal bone deposits on a Saturday night.

And while it's never explicitly said, I'd figure that a Satyr with cyberlimbs would lose their Satyr Legs advantages unless they went with Raptor Leg modular cyberlimbs.