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General Pax
It seems to me that they changed it so that you simply have to find an appropriate clinic, which has its own availability, and then supply the implant, which uses the base availability but with a significantly increased cost.

I don't understand why betagrade implants arent availabile during chargen though. Clinics that can install it are well within the available limits and the costs arent particularly high, but high enough to keep it in check with the limited amount of resources allotted during chargen.
Stahlseele
Because Beta-Ware is basically just a bit better alpha.
While Delta-Grade is something else entirely.
The device in Beta is basically alpha, which has been specifically altered and adapted a bit to your specifications. Still a complete device implanted
The device in Delta is you telling them what you want, they taking what's needed and building the device directly in your body. A new device being build and built inside your body.
General Pax
How is that a response to anything I said?

I am saying that it is odd that beta cannot be gotten during chargen despite the fact that it appears to fall within the availability limits. Its only Avail 6 to find a clinic that can implant betaware, and the cost multiplier is only x4.

I am also saying that delta clinics, the only place you can have deltaware installed by the rules, are well outside those limits with an Avail 24. So yeah OK you cant have deltaware at chargen. But it seems as if they changed it from previous editions so that instead of having an avail hike on deltaware, you have to instead just find a clinic and then pay the price hike. So basically all deltaware has two Avails, one to find a clinic, the other for the implant itself, which is the same as alpha or standard. Only the price changes.
Stahlseele
Wait, you can't get Beta Grade Stuff in Char Gen in SR4? O.o
I thought that had changed?
General Pax
No the rules say only alpha and standard as well as rating 6 and avail 12. You can get up to avail 20 for a 5BP edge though, but the other limits remain.
Stahlseele
OK, my bad, i thought that had been changed . .
In the fluff of SR4, Beta Grade is said to be kept in stock by most of the better clinics.
whereas that was only alpha in SR4.
General Pax
Yea its an arbitrary limit that doesnt seem to be founded in common sense, just a rehash of the same arbitrary limit of old.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ May 29 2010, 05:08 PM) *
I'm of the opinion that delta clinics themselves will be able to lay hands on just about any implant; when you reach the delta clinic, the ordinary availability (and buying game) is irrelevant.


Indeed... it is the holy grail of Augmentation, and should not be handed out on a whim...

Keep the Faith
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (General Pax @ May 29 2010, 05:51 PM) *
Yea its an arbitrary limit that doesnt seem to be founded in common sense, just a rehash of the same arbitrary limit of old.


Why does everybody complain about the limits?
I am really curious about that...

Keep the Faith
Yerameyahu
You can't chargen with Initiation either (no, I don't wanna hear it nyahnyah.gif ), or Availability 13+, etc. It's just rules. Ask your GM to let you buy Beta grade at the beginning if it's that important. All rules are subject to house modification.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 29 2010, 07:09 PM) *
You can't chargen with Initiation either (no, I don't wanna hear it nyahnyah.gif ), or Availability 13+, etc. It's just rules. Ask your GM to let you buy Beta grade at the beginning if it's that important. All rules are subject to house modification.


Indeed...

Keep the Faith
Karoline
I don't even know why someone would want to get beta ware at chargen. I find myself buying second hand much more often than alpha (Actually I'm not sure I've ever had a character start with alpha) because when first starting cash tends to be more of a limiter than essence with perhaps the exception of wired reflexes, in which case the devs might have specifically not wanted people to be able to pay the fairly low cost for beta wired reflexes in order to get a huge boost in free essence.

As the others have said though, if it is that big of a deal, just talk to your GM. Starting with a delta datajack might be a cool point of background for a hacker or something, or maybe having a character that feels strongly about the evasiveness of 'ware, and so will only get deltaware because it is so much more compatible with the body.
General Pax
For starting with deltaware, that deltaware datajack is a rating 6 device, meaning it has a built-in Firewall 6, not to mention System 6, Response 6, and Signal 6. That is worth the price of admission alone.

Beta is nice if your concept requires a lot of Essence expensive ware that you cant fit into 6 points of Essence. Its also nice for characters who arent cheapskates and come from more sophisticated origins. The price of the implants is balance enough. There really is no reason why betagrade ware should be banned at chargen, especially since its relatively common in the 70s.

And yes everyone knows you can talk to the GM to get permission. You can do that for anything. That is not even a point worth discussing as a solution because it isnt a solution at all.
Yerameyahu
It is when there's not a problem. smile.gif
General Pax
There is a problem. Theres no reason for betaware to be banned at chargen. Or really any gear as long as it is appropriate to the character. Its all arbitrary, moreso than even the skill limits of only one 6 or two 5s. Why shouldnt a former Ranger sniper start with a high quality sniper rifle?? Why shouldnt a former company man start with beta or even delta skillwires?? etc...
Karoline
And then you get into things like restricted gear. It is all about attempting to keep things balanced, and likely trying to enforce the possibility of character advancement. The game would likely be less fun without the 'one 6 or two 5s' rule, but people would get alot of 5s and 6s if it wasn't for that rule. Basically the game is looking out for its own enjoyability. This is why invulnerability is a cheat code in most games, instead of simply an option, because it tends to make the game very unfun, so why include it as an easy option? If people want to circumvent that because they get a high out of being invincible (or maybe they're just more interested in the story or are working on a guide or something) then they have to do a bit of extra work to circumvent things.
Yerameyahu
I feel like the Rangers don't let you keep your gear. smile.gif For the vast majority of characters, starting with Alpha is perfectly fine. For the special cases, you ask the GM. Done. It *is* the solution to that tiny need.
Whipstitch
I really don't have a problem with it. Characters are created by arbitrary decisions, so they're subject to equally arbitrary limitations. nyahnyah.gif
Ascalaphus
It might have been cleaner to just have an availability modifier for alphaware and betaware yeah.. meaning you can get some betaware at chargen, but not everything.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 29 2010, 10:07 AM) *
The D&D reference is *from* the show. smile.gif


Specifically the show Let's Make a Deal, hosted by Monty Hall.

Personally, I'm all about limiting access to Deltaware by offering it specifically as tempting rewards and one-time only access for certain jobs, but, at the same time, I don't like restricting access all across the board. If a player saves up the cash to buy something that crazy-expensive, then they're making it a high priority. When a player decides to making something their #1 priority, it's poor taste to deny it to them. Because they've obviously been working towards it, so the only thing keeping them away would be you, as the GM, purposely withholding the opportunities they need.

As to the point that all delta is custom made by masters of the cyber arts, yes, that's totally true. However it's still custom made from already existing parts. It's like making a stained glass window. They have all these different pieces, but they have to organize them to fit the form at hand.
imperialus
QUOTE (The Lorax @ May 28 2010, 02:34 AM) *
The availability rules in sr4 are terrible. Availability used to mean something in the pass. If an item had a high Availability, there was a very real chance you would never get your hands on it. In sr4, you will eventually get it. Extended tests always succeed unless its either some ridiculous number, which no piece of gear in the game has, or your very terrible in social situations. Like cha 1 and no influence skills terrible. And even then if you have enough money and access to a fixer or other appropriate contact its not going to matter. Even at 24/1 week. You WILL get the item or service your after.


Easy fix.

Each time an availability test is made the GM rolls a number of dice equal to the items availability (with a plus 2 modifier for restricted gear and a plus 5 for illegal). This too is an extended test with a target number equal to the items availability minus the runners notoriety. If the target number gets reached then someone (bad) has found out about the deal the runner is trying to make. Might spice things up a bit if the runner goes to the meet where he is supposed to pick up his new toy and gets raided by an ATF counter-terrorism unit.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (General Pax @ May 29 2010, 08:37 PM) *
There is a problem. Theres no reason for betaware to be banned at chargen. Or really any gear as long as it is appropriate to the character. Its all arbitrary, moreso than even the skill limits of only one 6 or two 5s. Why shouldnt a former Ranger sniper start with a high quality sniper rifle?? Why shouldnt a former company man start with beta or even delta skillwires?? etc...


But I can write a background that would allow absolutely anything that is printed in the books, regardless of Availability... Does that mean that the GM should let me have it? I would say no... Especially with a 400 BP starting game...

Just because you can argue for it well does not mean that the game should cater to your whims above anyone else's... As for the Sniper Example, there are Sniper Rifles that you can start with... at character creation... But there is no one living today that can take an optimized Sniper Rifle and use it to its fullest capabilities, always, everytime... the breakdown is not the weapon but the person... so your argument about high end sniper rifles is a bad one... any Sniper rifle is good enough for even the best of the best, the only differences are in the options, not capability. And you would still have to purchase the weapon itself, as the military does not let you take it with you when you leave...

Keep the Faith
Mongoose
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 28 2010, 09:47 PM) *
Ah, I see what you mean. I didn't think about datajacks, because that's not what anyone's talking about for Delta. smile.gif


I think that's actually the best stuff to get as Delta. If you minimize the essence cost of all those little gadgets, you can usually fit in whatever big-ass gadget you need (if its worth having in the first place). Plus, you won't have to let Lofwyr hang onto your left nut to get it.
Karoline
QUOTE (Mongoose @ May 30 2010, 01:03 PM) *
I think that's actually the best stuff to get as Delta. If you minimize the essence cost of all those little gadgets, you can usually fit in whatever big-ass gadget you need (if its worth having in the first place).

Yeah, the idea is that it is really cheap to get delta. It's like delta synaptic boosters are nice, but they cost 2.4 mil for .75 essence. Delta datajack is already .05 essence for a pittance of 5k.
Yerameyahu
It really depends on the item. Some of the little things aren't worth Delta-ing, and some of the big things really are. It's just a matter of cost/essence ratios.
Karoline
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 30 2010, 03:19 PM) *
It's just a matter of cost/essence ratios.


Yeah, that's basically what matters. Wired reflexes for instance are a good thing to get delta except for the fact that you can get synaptic boosters. Though if you have things like bio compatibility and adapsin then it might actually be better to get delta wired than synaptic boosters.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 30 2010, 10:19 PM) *
Some of the little things aren't worth Delta-ingn […]

In the long run, they all are, both crunch (squeezing the last perks out of the point of essence) and fluff wise (better quality implants means higher quality of living).
Especially if using Cluster nodes.
Yerameyahu
In the long run, everything is true. smile.gif
General Pax
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 30 2010, 10:17 AM) *
But I can write a background that would allow absolutely anything that is printed in the books, regardless of Availability... Does that mean that the GM should let me have it? I would say no... Especially with a 400 BP starting game...

That is just the way it has been but that does not mean it makes sense or is justifiable in a game that revolves around roleplaying. Limits on characters resources be it karma or build points should do the job of keeping characters balanced in the beginning.

Explain why a ranger arms sm-4 sniper rifle is not acceptable through normal means but an ares desert strike is with room to spare??? They are all but identical weapons. Any why is it suddenly perfectly acceptable ten seconds after the game starts but not a moment sooner??? How about apds ammo over ex-ex ammo??? The hk xm30 assault rifle vs the areas alpha where the latter is a superior weapon all around???

It is not limited to weapons but thats the easiest comparison to make. Theres no reason for these options to be cut off from characters during creation but then turn around and become easypeasy to get as soon as the game begins. Why is it so easy then but not for the years and years you had prior to the starts of the game??????? Thats not a balancing issue. It is completely unecessarry. Like thac0 in early dnd.
Yerameyahu
???????? biggrin.gif
Whipstitch
QUOTE (General Pax @ May 30 2010, 04:33 PM) *
Like thac0 in early dnd.



Actually, thac0 worked fine and was the cornerstone of the combat system. Previous systems frankly aren't even all that much different. It's not Dave Arneson's fault that some people are too dumb to use integers.
Karoline
13+ availability is easypeasy? I mean if you're a face or something sure, but if your most other characters with a charisma of 2-3 and maybe a 4 in a social skill, then you're going to have trouble getting the thing, and it'll still take a couple months (Six tests on average, and glitches or even critical glitches are fairly likely near the end) or so depending on what the item in question is. It is entirely a balancing issue.
Ascalaphus
I wonder if it would make more sense to have the time interval between tests be based on Availability, instead of money cost?
Mongoose
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 30 2010, 09:19 PM) *
It really depends on the item. Some of the little things aren't worth Delta-ing, and some of the big things really are. It's just a matter of cost/essence ratios.


If you can afford hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of nuyen worth of deltaware, you've got a huge pile of money you could put towards retirement. THAT'S why I don't like big ticket deltaware items. Its easier to justify a small incremental improvement (maybe 10-20K for minor dletaware that frees up room for something else that you wanted as alphaware).

Really, if you make deltaware a multi-year, once in 4-lifetimes goal, what's the point? After a certain cost, cyberware simply isn;t worth buying, since you can take the same money, invest it in retirement, and ensure you'll never need to use said cyberware.
Karoline
Providing of course that retirement is an option, which it generally should be. Even being wanted or having an enemy or being a criminal can be circumvented with those kinds of millions.

Other wise though I do agree that in general, I think most people would take that few mil, buy a luxury or high lifestyle, and simply retire.
Yerameyahu
I guess it depends on your motivation and your goals. I'm talking about 'worth it'. I think we can agree that shadowrunning is not a very smart first-choice vocation if you just want to retire nicely on a couple million Nuyen, so I'm not too worried about it. *shrug* Anyway, it's not an argument for making it cheaper or easier to get, just one for never 'bothering'. Just like you probably won't be a cyberzombie, or own military vehicles.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (General Pax @ May 30 2010, 02:33 PM) *
That is just the way it has been but that does not mean it makes sense or is justifiable in a game that revolves around roleplaying. Limits on characters resources be it karma or build points should do the job of keeping characters balanced in the beginning.

Explain why a ranger arms sm-4 sniper rifle is not acceptable through normal means but an ares desert strike is with room to spare??? They are all but identical weapons. Any why is it suddenly perfectly acceptable ten seconds after the game starts but not a moment sooner??? How about apds ammo over ex-ex ammo??? The hk xm30 assault rifle vs the areas alpha where the latter is a superior weapon all around???

It is not limited to weapons but thats the easiest comparison to make. Theres no reason for these options to be cut off from characters during creation but then turn around and become easypeasy to get as soon as the game begins. Why is it so easy then but not for the years and years you had prior to the starts of the game??????? Thats not a balancing issue. It is completely unecessarry. Like thac0 in early dnd.


If you absolutely have to have a piece of gear (most Gear is Availability 20 or less), then take a Restricted Gear Quality and buy it... you are allowed to do that... however, the rules are in place to promote a semblance of balance between characters at play start... what happens afterwards will balance all on its own, as it is all about how you spend your Karma and Resources...

If you don't like the idea of limiting character creation, you are free to alter that at whim... I, however, think that it is okay for limits to be in place... If there is gear that I absolutely MUST have, I either purchase it with the Restricted Gear Quality, or ask My GM to make a ruling, or wait and get it in play... However it works out, I will eventually get the equipment that I am looking for...

I guess my question to you is this... Why do you not like Limits?

Keep the Faith
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Mongoose @ May 30 2010, 05:53 PM) *
If you can afford hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of nuyen worth of deltaware, you've got a huge pile of money you could put towards retirement. THAT'S why I don't like big ticket deltaware items. Its easier to justify a small incremental improvement (maybe 10-20K for minor dletaware that frees up room for something else that you wanted as alphaware).

Really, if you make deltaware a multi-year, once in 4-lifetimes goal, what's the point? After a certain cost, cyberware simply isn;t worth buying, since you can take the same money, invest it in retirement, and ensure you'll never need to use said cyberware.


Sure you could do that (retire)... But retirement means that you are making a new character; I am not about Retirment, and most of my Characters do not run the shadows to amass enough money to retire; there are often many Other reasons for running the Shadows, and the money is just a side benefit... I like playing a favorite character, and access to Delta Ware extends my longevity in the game... without significantly increasing the level of BadAssness; it is afterall the exact same ware you had previously (though better quality)...

Sometimes the point is the fact that you have a customized, integrated Delta Grade Cyberware Suite... It is a mark of distinction, if nothing else... And it could open up a significant Essence Hole that you can add additional 'ware too, which is its own reward at that point... Besides, who would want to give uyp the adrenalin rush of the Shadows... it is a high that is often better than the newest street drugs, though no less addicting...

Keep the Faith
Saint Sithney
Some small stuff is better to get as deltaware if only because delta is harder to detect with scanners and Assensing. That makes it doubly important for bio-adept Infiltrator types.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ May 30 2010, 09:40 PM) *
Some small stuff is better to get as deltaware if only because delta is harder to detect with scanners and Assensing. That makes it doubly important for bio-adept Infiltrator types.



The benefit of being Harder to detect by Assensing and scanners is also a nice thing...

Keep the Faith
Whipstitch
I got a delta data jack once just because.
Whipstitch
I mean, c'mon, it was DELTA.
Mäx
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 31 2010, 05:23 AM) *
If you absolutely have to have a piece of gear (most Gear is Availability 20 or less), then take a Restricted Gear Quality and buy it... you are allowed to do that... however, the rules are in place to promote a semblance of balance between characters at play start..

Except it really does a terribad job at that,as especially the guns availebility number are mostly just completdly arbitrary.
Becouse really whats the balance of some AR:s being unavailebul at start when alpha is.
Whipstitch
It's not as arbitrary as you're making it sound. Let's go through, shall we?

Guns that you can't start with:

BBB:

Ranger Arms SM-4: Designed to be completely disassembled or reassembled in 3 Complex Actions with no test, deals HMG damage, fits in a standard sized briefcase AND has a silencer and imaging scope. Clearly, that is perfectly legal, not intended for assassinations or military use at all and I'm sure you can buy them at K-Mart (did I mention that it costs 6 grand? It costs 6 grand). It's available competition is available because it's produced in number for the CAS or Desert Wars and because they're not silenced weapons that hit harder than an HMG and can be broken down in 9 seconds by people who don't even have Armorer. Hell, 3 seconds if they've got Wired 2.

HK-XM30: Easily becomes a sniper rifle or light machine gun due to being the core of an easily stowed modular weapon system. Of dubious practicality, but in a screwed up way that helps explain why it's rare and likely limited to gunshows and highbrow paramilitary forces.

Ultimax HMGD-2: It's a freakin' heavy machine gun. Load this bad boy with APDS and it's truck hunting season-- 7DV, -7AP. This makes police uncomfortable and it's just a wee tad overkill for your average gang banger. You know, since the recoil is beyond obnoxious and all.

Panther XXL: It's a Panther Cannon.

Mitsubishi MLR: It's a fancy-ass smartlinked semiautomatic missile launcher. Sure, you can still get a rocket launcher at chargen if you really want to, but it's single shot and more akin to the RPGs that governments have tried to keep out of the hands of gun runners and terrorists for decades with only partial success.

Aaaand that's it. What we learned? The authorities don't like things that can be quickly broken down into a briefcase, fire depleted uranium rounds, missiles or don't even need such fancy ammo to punch through 10 points of hardened armor. I cannot imagine why.

Arsenal is really just more of the same. There's actually a fair amount of consistency with what'll break the 12 availability threshold. Basically, things that are designed to be pricey modular weapon systems, or have biometric systems standard are going to have a high availability. Same deal with the stuff that can break down into toys or jewelry to bypass the authorities or is made entirely of composites that beat MAD scanners. Really, the big area where it seems like they just threw stuff at the dart board was with machine guns, where often one is really just as good as another, with the corebook Ingram White Knight being crazy good yet available at chargen. Still, you can at least count on the HMGs being unavailable. Grenade launcher availability is also a bit of a head scratcher, since they're pretty easy to get a hold of. But overall, I think the majority of it makes about as much sense as you can ask for. The over-engineered expensive stuff is rare, while the stuff that is really just a rehashed descendants of guns we already have today are easy to find. I can live with that easy.
General Pax
The point is theres nothing about those weapons that makes them so worth blacklisting to new characters. So what is the point in blacklisting them??? There is no balance issue there and trying to point one out by pointing to other items that are also arbritrarily blacklisted is absurd.

Looks also at cyberware. Why is muscle augmentation 2 and muscle toner 2 okay but a superthyroid gland isnt??? Why can an adept get improved reflexes 3 but a street samurai cannot get wired reflexes or synaptic booster 3??? Why cant a troll within their racial limits get a cyberarm that matches their natural stats??? A troll with bod 11 agi 4 and str 11 would have a cyberarm that has an avail of 21.

The other rules are where the balance takes place. Essence loss, legality issues, etc. If you walk down main street with a panther assault cannon your going to find yourself in a whole mess of trouble. Thats what keeps a panther assault cannon balanced. Not being able to buy it until the game begins is just silly talk if that is someones response.

Artificial limits is not game balancing. And trying to say that even a character with cha 1 and no social skills can't get that avail 24 item is also incorrect. All it takes is a single appropriate contact like a fixer or arms dealer or street doc to get it for you. They use their own stats for getting gear not yours. But they only seem to be able to do that the day you start playing. If they try before that well its apparently all but impossible!!!
Whipstitch
QUOTE (General Pax @ Jun 2 2010, 06:34 AM) *
The point is theres nothing about those weapons that makes them so worth blacklisting to new characters.



You can say this as many times as you want but that doesn't necessarily make it so. The numbers themselves are somewhat arbitrary. I don't consider the arbitrariness to be a bad thing. You point out that an appropriate contact could get things for you. That's true. But things that an appropriate contact can get you that are above 12 availability are not trivial to get and as such they require rolls to acquire, and rolls aren't made in chargen, they're made in play and sometimes they hit snags along the way. You can consider that a flaw of the chargen system if you want, but ultimately acquiring items is not something I want to see something streamlined any further than it has to be. I don't like my players getting all the tools they need out of the hammer space that is chargen, thank you very much. I don't need a samurai build with restricted milspec cyberware and one 3 point bartender contact saying "It's cool dudebrah, I got the Move-By-Wire during my time in Firewatch or some other outfit that would actually laugh a 400 bp character right out of the building." Because if you want to talk arbitrary, character backgrounds is where all the real action is. I have better things to do as a GM than go through and line item veto half the crap on the character sheets I see, and the restricted gear rules do a good job of paring things down to a manageable level and they do so with a fair amount of consistency.
Mäx
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Jun 2 2010, 08:07 PM) *
You can say this as many times as you want but that doesn't necessarily make it so. The numbers themselves are somewhat arbitrary. I don't consider the arbitrariness to be a bad thing. You point out that an appropriate contact could get things for you. That's true. But things that an appropriate contact can get you that are above 12 availability are not trivial to get and as such they require rolls to acquire, and rolls aren't made in chargen, they're made in play. You can consider that a flaw of the chargen system if you want, but ultimately acquiring items is not something I want to see something streamlined any further than it has to be. I don't like my players getting all the tools they need out of the hammer space that is chargen, thank you very much.

What the difference between me buying one those guns at chargen and my connection 6 armsdealer contact finding me one immidiatly after chargen with my starting money.
Oh right nothing.

PS:could you write you post in one piece.
Whipstitch
I could but I don't and I won't.


Oh, hey, look, I'm at it again!


Anyway, here's the thing:

1. Many builds don't have high rating contacts. In fact, in my experience, plenty of builds go off the plan that someone else in the group will have a high Connection Fixer. Either way, you need to pay points for privileged access, be it through qualities or through who you know.

2. A high connection Fixer isn't the foregone conclusion people make it out to be. Getting items can still take time, and 6 Connection fixers are busy people who by the RAW get back to you immediately about 16% of the time.
Yerameyahu
You shouldn't have a connection 6 arms dealer anyway, but at least you had to spend BP on that.

The availability reflects both balance and fluff: the fact that a troll can be X strong doesn't mean cyberarms for that level are easily available, and yeah, I can see how an automatic rocket backpack might not be available either. smile.gif

No, it isn't perfect for the availability system to be based just on social and charisma, but there's no real alternative. Ebay? If it's ruining your game, house rule a change.
Mäx
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Jun 2 2010, 08:25 PM) *
2. A high connection Fixer isn't the foregone conclusion people make it out to be. Getting items can still take time, and 6 Connection fixers are busy people who by the RAW get back to you immediately about 16% of the time.

Maybe not immidiatly, but i think its not unresonable to excpect to at leasst get a short phone call from my loyalty 6 contact in the next 24h
What do you mean every street sam doesnt have a 6/6 arms-dealer contact, i thought that came with the archytype wink.gif cyber.gif
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