First spell cast in SR4A last week end.

It was a massive FOR 8 Powerball(?) (Type P, Damage P, Direct, Area)

Caster roll 3 aditionnal success.

Everyone take 11P resisting only with body (and one spell-lunger with counterspell 4).

Caster took a large drain hit, physical. Opposition lie in wreck.


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That feel really, really strong to me.

Especially as I could have dual cast the spell and be nearly assured to have them all dead even without using Edge.

Am I missing something or is Direct magic really that strong ?

Yes, magic is strong.

Which is why you always geek the mage first.

Actually, you did miss something, though your conclusion (spells are strong) is correct.



They don't resist the damage. They resist the casting itself. The opposed test is Spellcasting + Magic vs Body + Counterspelling. So if any of them got 3 hits on the resistance test, they should have been unaffected (with the way you were playing, they would have still taken 8P).

I just had a beautiful dream... I was playing Shadowrun, and every PC was non-magical. They had automatic weapons, cyberware, Trolls, Orks, drones, and crazy vehicles. The enemy corp facility had cold, professional mercs with a sweet security net, and when the opposition finally noticed the heroes, the fight was epic. Just as the team is dusting itself off, there is ... silence. No helicopter HTR teams, no Citymasters full of Cyberzombies...the night is quiet. They look around, suspicious. The cybersam's augmented hearing picks up a scraping sound, and his onboard systems ID it as a stick match being ignited. He whirls around to see a small, elderly man, lighting a pipe. The man smiles, benignly, and the Samurai hesitates. The man drops the match, and the grass below erupts into a column of flame...which HOWLS. The samurai empties his magazine into the raging Elemental as he screams "Fall back! Get to the truck!" The team's Troll turns to help him, but the Samurai curses at him. "RUN, Rodriguez! That's a fragging order." The samurai slams a new mag into his assault rifle and charges at the mage and his monster.

The dwarf swallows the rest of his brew as the young razorboy nods, eyes wide. "What did you do?"

"We ran."

The razorboy is shaken. Shadowruns aren't supposed to end like that. "Why...why are you telling me this?"

The dwarf dropped a credstick on the bar and stood up. "We're putting a team together. Gonna get some payback." He slid his thick AR shades on and lit a cigar, watching the match burn ruefully. "Mages gotta die."

That Sir, is awesome

And that's why that second magazine should have been SnS ammo.

Thanks for the clarification.

So if they score 3 hits they suffer nothing, if they score 2 hits they suffer 10P or 8P ?

that topic is wrong. it should say 'Direct Combat Spells are strong'. So we banned them

9P i think. Force+net hits

You could also use the SR4a optional +1 drain per net success....If you die casting that mighty spell,
then it really did not help that much...

Trouble is that sometimes you dont really care if you are going to die or not... especially if you are going to get screwed anyway. Perhaps adding a Willpower test in order to get the nerves to take the drain.

But I am thinking Direct Physical spell are in effect more too much efficient combat wise... make you wonder why to use indirect spells at all.

Yes, magic is strong in general. That's the point of it, though. Shadowrun isn't a balanced, tactical game. It's a roleplaying game, and in the setting, magic is feared and respected for its power.

Fortunately, there are defenses. And your best one is to have a mage on your side. You know, the whole "fight fire with fire" mantra. Counterspelling, whether done by a mage or a conjured spirit with Magical Guard, is very effective against spells courtesy of the way they're defended against. As others have already said, you're not defeating the Damage Value of the attack; you're defeating the Spellcasting Test.

That said, if you still don't care for how powerful magic is, there's two easy solutions. First, don't allow overcasting. That's where most of the brokeness comes from in my experience. Nearly every example you see of people demonstrating how powerful magic is, it's from an overcast Direct Combat spell. Second, allow characters to use another attribute in the Resistance Test. For example, Body or Willpower + Edge (+ Counterspelling). If you do that, you should probably also change it so that casters don't suffer as much drain from spells that fail to work, since it makes the Spellcasting Test more of a 50-50 shot in a lot of cases.

But that's just my opinion.

Well, force 8 is a massive spell. I think I'ver never cast anything above 6 in all these years of playing magicians. If the Troll-Sam gets out his Panther, to do cry "firearms are way to strong"?

Couple of things were missing in that statement:

1- Like said before, the was badly resisted for 3 reasons:
a) The victims must resist the caster's hits (Body vs 3 hits in this case)
b) Use Edge
c) And most importantly, why did the opposing mage didn't use CounterSpell to protect his teammates ??

2- Situation: was this the last fight of the run ?? 'Cause after casting that spell, you're probably out for the rest of the run (or almost). First Aid could help you, but not Heal.

3- Multi-cast ?? I doubt it. One drain per spell, each increased by 1 per extra spell, not sure your mage could live that. All in all, see point 1.

4- Is magic strong ?? Oh, hell yes !!! But it's not invincible.

5- GMs must also learn how opposing forces would work against mages. Even if security forces don't have a mage with them, they surely had training in case they would face one (that's how I play it in my game). Use cover to protect yourself from bullets and spells. Spread the forces so that a grenade, or an area of effect spell, don't hit everyone. Etc.

1c - Well the Mage is a newbie as much as I am and she just forget to cover her friends. They also mistook the ennemy orc mage for a hacker (racial prejudice I suppose) so they weren't expecting him to start lunging spells.

2- It was a NPC that overcast.

3- The point is the Orc didn't expect to survive if not ressorting to extreme mesure, in the previous round they have dispatched his teammate with short burst of exploding bullets, even thoses lying on the ground or the one they petrificate. He was cornered so I supposed he had no choice but to ressort to maximum effect.

4- Didn't say so. I just wasn't expecting this kind of efficience.

5- How to protect from Area Direct spell? I understand the spreading comment but it need a lots of place to do so and so much spread they lessen their defence against mundane.

I have an idea about overcasting: how about you generate the drain normally and then add +1 DV per point of overcast. Example: Joe the mage is casting Powerbolt, he has a magic of 6, but is going to overcast at force 8. That means his DV is Force/2+1+2=6 (yes, it is physical also). This way the overcasting drain isn't divided like regular drain, enforcing the fact that it is more serious/dangerous.. How's that?

I fail to see how this is any worse thana grenade.

Except Mr mage had to resist hell's drain.

Duh, grenades are dangerous. On the other hand, they're F to carry around. Oh well.

You only need to speard out so the mages can only get a LOS on a two or less of you simultaniously, Drect spells can only damage targets the caster can see.


Pepper punch gas ones are actually completdly legal and still quite nasty unless the opposition is wearing gasmasks.

And has no exposed skin.

Yes, but I meant the ones that act as a Force 8 Powerball (i.e., High Explosive).

I like the "extra drain by the amount of overcasting" rule. The other one I thought of for Direct Combat Spells was:

The target's hits on the resistance test get added to the DV of the drain of the spell.

This is an identical mechanic to Summoning: where the Spirit's hits add to the Drain of the Summoning. The rule above would not affect Indirect Combat spells. The theory behind it is: Direct Combat spells work but "shunting" mana directly into a target's aura, when trying to that the aura "pushes back" along that mana link between caster and target thus causing a mana backlash that results in the extra drain.

For area spells I would go with the highest number of hits from a single target.

I've tried it out in a couple sessions and it does work well for making a Mage think twice about pumping out those really high-force spells, especially overcasting. ("Wait, this is going to be base 9P drain... if they roll a lucky 4 hits I could be facing 13P in drain..."). I also have a house rule (since the beginning of 3rd edition days) that a magician must stay conscious from the drain in order for the spell to take effect. If they fall unconscious from the drain they can spend a point of Edge to have the spell activate anyways (kind of like a Dead Man's Trigger).

I just don't understand the irrational fear of magic here, is this some kind of meta-roleplay?

Two shots from a firearm are just as much, if not more, damage than any direct damage spell. Explosives again do as much as area spells. The tradeoff is in having to buy and carry the gear around vs. hurting yourself with drain. If you bother to properly equip yourself you can do just as much damage as a Mage with no risk to yourself.

I've only played a little Shadowrun so far but IMHO the only thing really crazy about magic is binding spirits. If you really want to min/max then an elf mage with a charisma based tradition who walks around with a full menagerie of spirits is the way to go. You can still cast all the spells you want with a nice and high drain resist dice pool, with a simple action you can summon a fucking zoo to decimate the opposition and as a bonus you're a great Face in any social situation.

This is pretty much it. Any particular problems of magic by individual GMs are exactly as you said: irrational.

The problem comes from the lack of a defense against it. There's lots of ways to protect yourself from a bullet or a grenade or a drone. The only way to protect yourself from a spell is to take out the mage first, which is totally dependent on initiative and awareness, and is no more of a defense than it is against anything else. Once the mage casts his spell, though, you're screwed unless you happen to have a capable mage on your own side and/or get really lucky on your resistance roll.

Say you're in a one-on-one duel against a mage. He gets lucky and goes first. He overcasts a Stunbolt at minimal risk to himself. You get to roll Willpower against his Magic + Sorcery + Foci + Specializations + Other Bonuses. You may as wel not even bother, you're as good as dead. If you had gone first instead, and your only viable attack is the use of your Agility + Pistols + Smartlink, he gets to make multiple rolls to defend against your relatively feeble attacks, using Body + Armor plus whatever else he has at his disposal (including sustained spells like Armor, Barrier, and/or Deflection). The mage actually has a chance to survive. You pretty much don't.

Meta-roleplay? If anything, it's *more* roleplay: magic is scary.

You're assuming the mage and the sam are both standing in the open in a well-lit (but not overlit) space. If there's cover available, the sam runs for cover. Break LOS, and the number of ways the mage can kill you goes way down. Pop smoke, dive for cover, circle around, shoot the mage in the back. Sure, if you're dumb enough to just stand there and let the other guy kill you, you're gonna die. Doesn't really prove anything.

He also assumes that firearm attacks are "relatively feeble", which they arent.

That's cool. All situational. It's actually a good one. Still, it bears to say that the caster almost died for trying to cast that spell. He might as well take a few enemies at the same time. For me, this situation is the same as being surrounded, dropping a grenade at your feet, and hope for the best (either with better armor, that you're a troll, or anything that might give you an edge). Of course, that's assuming you don't want to be taken alive...


Direct spells have, usually a 6m radius from a valid living target. Try to be around 6m from your nearest friend. Also, the mage has to be able to see you. These are examples of mundane ways to 'defend' against AoE spells. Other then that, there's Counterspell.

For Inderect spells, the range is 'wider' because the mage can target anything and doesn't have to see you. However, Counterspell still works.

IIRC, he still needs a "primary" target in order to cast the spell. If he's trying to catch a sammy around the corner with an acid wave, he must be targeting someone or more likely something at the corner...so don't forget the OR table.

Reading this reminded me of what a newbie magician did in a run of mine. Overcasted a force 10 lightning ball spell at point blank range. Rendered everyone unconscious (including himself, he's a lousy counterspeller), and nearly killed troll meat shield in the process due to overflow. He himself lucked out on the drain (spent edge) and didn't die.

No, he is just assuming that you are in LOS of the mage and the mage is going first. A well built starting mage can one shot with relative ease any other non-counterspelling character (even with counterspelling a one shot is likely since most mages focus on casting first and counterspelling second) and do even worse with mind control magic (which is pretty much the most OP thing in the game).

Um. You also need LOS for those bullets. And the mage can see through the smoke, whatever kind it is.

The point is that, all other things equal, magic has fewer defenses than bullets. A lot fewer.

Firearms are pretty feeble when compared to magic. Mind magic is an "I win" button and direct spells are almost as bad.

If the mage goes first, there's nothing else you can do except stand there and let him kill you.
You need actions to do all of those thinks you said and the mage killed you in first IP, before you got yours.

C'mon, you're not even pretending to make a fair comparison here. At the very least the gun bunny could use burst fire and pretty much garuntee hitting the mage. Plus, mages don't exactly have the best reaction, body and armor scores. Your explosive bullets will defeat that armor even with an armor spell being sustained, and physical barrier, are you kidding me? It requires a complex action to move it, it's ridiculous to expect anyone to e walking around with a bubble up around them. Oh and the mage won't have a ridiculous number of condition boxes either, so you're going to kill him with those rounds. The Mage is not some fully cybered walking tank with armor in the high 20's.

Plus I'd like to point out the ridiculous difference in expenditure and prep time involved in this match up. We've got a mage who has multiple foci active each worth tens of thousands of nuyen and dozens of karma. He's taken complex actions before the fight began to put spells into those sustained foci. The gun bunny can be naked with a gun and ammo worth a few thousand nuyen. The point being, the gun bunny has a lot more options in terms of gear and skills he could be applying in an equal matchup.

Your making a wierd assumption that the mage is a human/elf, he can just as well be a troll and will as such have a quite high damage resistance pool especially if he actually has a armor spell sustained.

Actually, a fair comparison would be a mage with Improved Invisibility and Increased Reflexes.

Definitely agreed that there are fewer defenses, the game clearly wants to reward a diversified team that brings a mage for magic defense and a hacker/technomancer to stop tech or your team will be at a great disadvantage. IMO that's a good thing, makes for more fun than all troll cyborg gunslingers mowing everything down.

I'm just saying let's not pretend guns aren't excellent. Armor just happens to be something you buy rather than something a PC must provide.

Let's ALSO not pretend there aren't numerous tech camo and IP equivalents, ok? And ultrasound defeats Invis more effectively than astral perception would defeat camo, since there's no drawback to running the ultrasound whatsoever. Are we going to have the mage sustaining Stealth now too? At least there's nothing the mage can do about his scent =P

Seriously folks, you're not even arguing against anyone by saying "the mage can do many things". Everyone can do many things. The whole point is "when shot in the face with a decent firearm a Mage will die in one IP". The game is a world of glass cannons.

this

And how wonderful that is. The idea behind a system like SR's is not to get shot.

I am not saying that there aren't tech equivalents (and I won't go into the whole stealth/astral debate) but the average starting mage will have Improved Invisibility and Reflexes - they probably won't be sustaining Armor, Barrier, or anything else that was listed. I was just saying that would be a more likely scenario.

The point is that the mage will rarely be shot in the face, but the street sam will often be hit by a spell. A good mage will beat a good street sam 9 times out of 10 unless you are just having an initiative roll off.

If somethink is still alive after you have spent an IP shooting at them, your not using enought of a gun.

*Sigh* I should know better by now, but:

Firearms: Attacker rolls his pool. Defender rolls to Dodge. Defender rolls to soak.
Magic: Attacker rolls his pool. Defender rolls his stat.

The pool of dice the defender gets to put into play are going to look a lot like this:

Firearms: Reaction+Dodge+Armor+Body
Magic: Willpower

Now, I agree that from a DV point of view, the direct damage spells are similar to a lot of what you can pick up at Weapons World. I concede that the Drain mechanic (especially with the optional rules in play) means that the Mage can't wipe out an army the way a cybersam can.

However, I feel my fear of magic is not irrational because of the pools above. When I go up against a pack of mercs, I'm ready for it. I have spent a lot of money and installed a lot of upgrades to make sure I can hold my own in a firefight. When one of those guys in identical armor and gear chucks a stunball at me, I will get KO'd, because although the damage is similar to his buddies' small arms, my options for defense are, pardon my Elvish, piss-poor.

Well the situation another poster outlined was exactly that, a "one on one duel", which he contended the mage would always win, regardless of who goes first. I contend that it, in fact, is just an initiative roll off as you put it since both characters are packing crazy lethal capabilities.

I just don't understand the OP and most replies in this thread. In the situation the OP outlined that NPC could have thrown an explosive with the same result. And yet we get two pages of replies with people designing their personal system to "punish" direct damage spells? Why? IMO it's all balanced because everyone has that kind of incredibly potency for damage.

The only thing unbalanced is the availability of defenses since anti-gun defense is store bought and anti-magic defense is provided by a PC. But I think this was deliberately done by the developers as a team building mechanic so...?

Yes, I make no claim to the contrary. But I imagine that the system is intentionally designed in that way so that teams have a Mage providing his Counterspell skill to that defensive dice pool.

If magic were just a different type of grenade/shotgun then it's pretty silly. By playing a mage you'd just be limiting your cyberware and bioware selections.

Right, so we all agree: magic is scary, harder to defend against, and requires active (instead of ubiquitous, store-bought) protection.

Glass cannons, geek the mage, consequences, and bullets cost 2 nuyen and everyone can get those.

I'd also add that any mage who wants to live isn't going to make himself readily identifiable as such, they don't walk around in robes while carrying a staff. Mages can wear regular armor (which adds to their defense pool) and carry a gun (even if they're unable to hit the broad side of a barn with it).


And correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it in Shadowrun to cast a spell you don't need to utter an arcane phrase or do any arm/hand gestures, correct?

My friend, I share your feeling. Mages gotta die.

Not as simple as that, in a combat spell vs gun comparison:

Firearms: Reaction+Armor+Body + dodge (if you sacrifice your next action)
Magic: Willpower + Counterspelling (which can incude Conterspelling foci)

Firearms: Affected by cover
Magic: Affected by background count

Firearms: Armor>DV, P is now S
Magic: S is less drain than P

Firearms: DV is reduced by 1 per hit
Magic: DV is reduced by 1 per hit, and entirely negated if the resistance check equals or exceeds the number of hits the mage gets.