If its an attack on a group of people, is it a personal attack?

Worst of all I agree, the spellcaster should be slinging spells. Some of us however get tired of the spellcaster knocking out two Citymasters a turn. And not even using specialized spells.

While your examples carry some validity for a well funded corporate facility, thats only one class of location in the game.

And no, I will not attribute something derogatory your direction.

BlueMax

There's a difference between have access to powerful magic, and using it constantly. If you don't know why casting constantly is a problem, there isn't much anyone can say to explain it. Even the bunnies use up ammo.

I said that doubling the drain on spells because you feel like it is lazy GMing, and I stand by that assertion. If you consider that a personal attack I don't know what to tell you.

In fairness, that's not the only thing you said. I think I saw the word 'fascist', as well.

Wow, cool man. Not only are you throwing about some nice insults and blanket "personal attacks", but you also threw it out at a moderator. Very nice. Good form.

Guns are regulated. They're illegal and easy to spot. They also run out of ammo. They also have a set damage value. Oh, and you can wear armor. Hard to do against a mana bolt. Oh yeah, and just about every other guy can get a gun and shoot back. Sorry for the snarky tone, but fascists get that way.


There's a lot you can do with magical security and countermeasures, sure. You're assuming that's the only place shadowruns take place.


No, its a matter of preference. I'm not right. Neither are you. It's just opinions.

Hahahahah! Magic fascists.

I recommend some of you buy a dictionary, "magic fascists" was in quotes for a reason, I wasn't saying you thought Benito Mussolini was a great leader I was referring to this aspect of fascism:



And certain GMs are like that about their pet causes, say their apparent stance towards magic at their table.



And yet despite all that they still can drop grunts in a heartbeat and they (and their ammo) barely cost anything. It's a game of glass cannons, why do you hate this particular one?!



Maybe those gangers live in a warehouse with a background count that drops your caster's magic a point or two and makes things a pain all night.



And in my opinion the changes you all propose reduce fun for no apparent reason. Why not have people manage the heat buildup of their guns? It's so realistic and if they "overshoot" you could have their LMG's barrel melt.

What if you double it because it's an optional rule, suggested right there in the rulebook?

Well, the mages have to constantly resist Drain if they keep casting spells. Sure, most of the time, Drain isn't an issue if the mage has enough Drain resistance but the more they roll, the more they risk not resisting the Drain completely.

If your mage can constantly cast powerful spells and soak the Drain, then the player must have designed his character to do so. If he hadn't want his character to be able to do so, the character wouldn't be likely to be able to do so.

Yeah, see, I don't actually have much of a problem with the magic rules. Like Toturi, it doesn't particularly bother me a lot of the time when a character is capable of doing something outside the bounds of other characters or archetypes. I just think that drain as a limiting factor is largely a polite fiction in regards to spellcasting.

Even if it were an optional rule, it's still a bad and lazy idea. But FYI I just checked SR4A and SM and neither has this optional rule. SR4A has Simplifying Spell Drain which still use F/2, it just has you precalculate the values for max normal force and modify from there to speed up gameflow. Street Magic has Optional Rule: Acquiring Gaesa During Play, Optional Rule: Learning Metamagic, Optional Rule: Aid Enchanting, Optional Rule: Exotic Reagent Requisites and Optional Rule: Corps Cadavres and Living Dolls.

I even tried searching for every instance of the word "drain" but that quickly grew tiresome and I started skimming, let me know the book and page number if I missed it. While there are certainly some (IMO) bad optional rules suggested in the rulebook since they are, of course, just semi-popular houserules not considered good enough to be part of the core gameplay, I would be genuinely surprised if this was one of them.

Toturi, it's hardly a question of the player wanting to be able to constantly cast powerful spells. Obviously, they'd want that.

It's a simple fix:If you don't like it, don't use it. That's the point of this thread. Someone has a problem with the way it is. We proposed some solutions. If you don't like them, don't use them. That's what you should do.

What you shouldn't do is go railing off on how everyone else is wrong and you're right because you feel 'x'. That's cool. Feel 'x'. Feel 'XYZ'. Don't come in here saying that the collective posters on the thread are all wrong and fascists (which is generally accepted as at least an impolite thing to say to a person) because they don't do or think the way you do.
*snip*


Goes both ways.

There's this idea out there. It's called "game balance." It's an obscure, rarely mentioned idea, I know... but it does indeed exist. And under this idea -- a crazy notion though it may be -- is the concept of making sure the primary options in a game are relatively balanced amongst each other. Unfortunately, magic isn't very well balanced, particularly against the amount of resistance a target can muster against it. There's two major ways of correcting for that imbalance; either giving defenders more ways to resist those types of attacks, or reining in the attacker so that he has to think twice before going all out.

Personally, I think it's a far better idea to go with the former than the latter. Magic is supposed to be strong and powerful and feared. When you can barely match a 35-nuyen grenade without causing major arteries in your body to burst, that's a BadThing™. If you just allow people to resist those attacks a bit better, however, you get an end result where magic is still as potent as it should be, but people can actually have a chance of surviving the assault. There is no magical Armored Jacket or Magic Dodge skills in the game. And that's where the problem lies.

Not any more *Goodbye spell locked mana barrier*

Okay, it's late and I'm tired, so if this doesn't make sense, chalk it up to fatigue. But what is the difference between magic that you cannot defend against and a narcojet pistol? With the pistol, if the needle penetrates the armor you get stuck with 10S. Same with a stunball... if you don't resist the casting, you take the damage.

Well "magic dodge" is counterspelling and "magic armor" is "be a highly processed object". I'm saying that PCs using magic against NPCs is balanced, the Mage may be throwing out combat spells while his menagerie of spirits rampages about but that's cool, this is a game where the other characters have enough firepower to solo a platoon or are almost-cyborg ninja assassin or control a small army of robotic death machines. Despite all this over the top lethality can you still challenge your players? Certainly, many tools have been explicitly created towards that end. If security is being hammered by a spellcaster maybe the standard operating procedure is to pump FAB III into the room and dispatch the drones. There are options to let players have their fun, feel powerful and yet still have proper, well thought out in game defenses for such scenarios.

I completely agree that NPC vs. PC magic is very powerful, even with counterspelling if you have a Mage NPC with 6 magic say "Oh what the hell" and overcast a Force 12 Powerball, it would be dangerous and you would have no real defense. But there are so many other things that are in the same category, at the very least:
- Snipers. Firing from long distances in unseen positions and easily dropping characters with their high powered rifles, ammunition and aim. It's perfectly realistic and there's zero defense against it. You might as well say "As you're running to your vehicle a sniper drops you" because the dice will be a formality.
- Explosives. With the abundance, quality and "chunky salsa" there's any number of "and that drone that flew through your fire into your midst was a kamikaze full of explosives" or "the room was rigged to explode if the alarm was triggered". TPK

At least you can geek the mage.

I just don't understand what is supposedly so unbalanced here. All character styles are powerful. As the GM you can defend against them all with the tools provided. All those same player character abilities when turned against the players are FAR too effective, and it's up to you to refrain from murdering everyone just because you can. Are your games featuring some kind of player vs. player combat? Because as addressed earlier that's also a matter of "who wins initiative". So I don't get it, why not let the mage play like a mage?



It's a forum, the whole point is discussion. I'm going to tell the OP I think his problem is a non-issue. I'm going to tell everyone who agrees with him that, in my opinion, they're wrong and the game is fine. I eagerly await counter-arguments, posit theories, concede points or provide new arguments. I think you're wrong and I'd like you to explain your reasoning, I want to understand why you think the way you do. Currently all I'm seeing is a lot of vague "magic SHOULD be dangerous!" that seems to be typical tyrannical GM prejudice fucking with mechanics. There's been no serious reason provided what-so-ever, everyone agrees that there's no magical defense that a player can independently acquire, and even with counterspelling they're nowhere as protected as when they twink out their 20+/20+ armor builds. Why does that mean a PC playing a Mage shouldn't be able to be amazing in combat? Everyone else can. Trying to make a caster refrain from casting seems to me to be as balanced as trying to force the gun bunny from shooting his guns, and for no other reason than "I don't like it".

Oh and if you don't like it? Don't reply. What you shouldn't do is try to tell me that I can't say that someone is wrong. That's the "suppressing opposition and criticism", btw. What I'm doing is a little thing called "debate and discourse".

P.S. If an analogy written in air quotes truly offended you then I pity you.

Lanlaorn, let me first start by saying that if you read my previous posts you'll realize I agree with you fairly completely. I see no reason to nerf mages or the system as written. That being said, I think the issue some of the other folks on this board has had with you isn't your content, but your tone. Swearing isn't called for and, although you are absolutely correct in its definition, using the word "fascist" was probably unwise as it does have a certain social negative quality. It would be like me calling someone ignorant: by its very definition it simply means, "lacking in knowledge or training," (a fairly neutral word in and of itself) however socially most people take it to mean "stupid."

I like your arguments, however I'd caution you (as well as anyone who may get heated on this board) to not fall to the easy temption of social callousness the annonymity of this board offers.

Mostly that with a Narcoject you can attempt a dodge against the initial attack, the needle has to penetrate armor, and you get to make a Toxic Resistance test against that damage.

With a Stunball, there's no dodge attempt, there's no armor that can help you, and then there's no damage resistance test. You and all your buddies match a single attribute against a mage's favorite attribute plus the mage's favorite skill, and then he stabs you all in the brain with his ego.

Now, do I think the problem is as bad as some folks make it out to be? Not in the slightest. In fact, I think recent rules have gone a long way towards helping the issue, and I can fairly say that in-character I've never felt overwhelmingly threatened by an enemy mage, in any edition of the game (if they were sustaining a slew of defensive spells, their offense doesn't hurt so much...and if they weren't, I shot them in the face until they were dead).

For those that do have issues balancing their game, however, a frustrated GM should be able to come to an internet message board and ask for advice without being called a fascist.


If you can't see the irony in typing those lines of text that close to one another, I really don't know what to say.

edit to add: For those that are continually poo-poo'ing the "using magic should be dangerous" thing, I'm just genuinely curious here, but how long have you been playing the game? This isn't some silly e-peen thing, of "I've been playing longer than you have, so I know better!" or some sort of post-count contest, I'm just really wondering when you were introduced to the game. Personally, I know a lot of my "casting spells should kick your ass" mentality is a holdover from previous editions, where it really did take a whole lot out of a mage to sling mojo very often, at least until you snagged Centering or a good couple of Foci to ease the pressure a bit. I feel like that's not the case so much in 4th Edition any more, so it seems like folks that are just getting into the game more recently may not have the same emotional holdover towards the good ol' days of passing out after a good Fireball.

Obviously there is another problem in assessing Magic power :

What the GM expect it to be at their table. Reading the full thread (that quickly derailed as if you carefully read my first post you will see that my comment was "Magic is strong, did I miss something", definitely not a call for nerf of anguish cry for overpower, just a basic constat ) I think there is basically 2 kind of people talking here :

1- Magic is powerfull, and it should be that way with no need to any modification.

2- Magic is powerfull, but it need additionnal defense or cost because currently some spells are quite over what the other players or the opposition can sustain.

Interestingly the premise is the same and everyone agree on it.

More interestingly is that in my original example it was the PLAYERS that were wipped out by a single and basic NPCs wich make me think if there is something wrong in my ruling (and it was, in part).

There is definitely some gray areas in the spell definition: how could something be direct then area ? I need to be able to see anyone into the spell area or not ?

The players were careless and not used to fighting magic user, but I still had to cheat on them because I said the ork blow his mind with the casting while in fact he did survive. This basic NPC overcast twice in a row and survive quite neatly and with his Energy Condition Monitor unscatted.

I thing the people that dont feel that changes are not needed in the way magic behave (specifically Drain and Overcast) should still admit that Magic have advantage over other Combat system (basically no armor, and lower resistance roll, anyway to defeat magic usually defeat other methods too) but this is fine for them.

The people that feel it need change should admit Magic work correctly now and isn't too powerfull, it is just lacking enough drawback or cost in their opinion.

IMDNSHO, I feel magic is too strong too easily, a bit like my opinion on wireless Matrix, that doesnt go with the idea I have on Magician feed from the novels and sourcebook. I think the magician could cast a lots of their smaller spells at no cost, and only suffer drain from bigger spell (bigger not massively overpowered). I think that when a magician try to cast a spell largely above his level he put his very own life into it (sustaining it by Life Magic) wich is corroborated by the way magic work (Great Ghost Dance). Every time I read a magician ressort to Overcasting it basically take him out of play and often nearing death.

This isn't really what I get from the current rules, Phys Drain from overpowered spells doesnt exactly replicate massive exhaustion and I think it need tweakings (some E Drain should be added by example). The way Drain is mitigated now make it too easy to control/expect/sustain, you now what you will face and handle, you are not just pourring everything you have and pray.

So in conclusion :

I am fine with the current spellcasting power. I feel the standard drain is basically OK. I feel there need to be harder/different rules on Drain from Overpowered spells.


P.S. Calling a GM a Fascist is very rude, unpolite and silly. Of course a GM is some kind of autoritarian and dictatorial figure, he is the one in charge of the rules and making all the decision about what is or not possible into the game and the world he is creating. You cant expect a gaming session to work as a Democracy, because with one vote each I fear the players would hardly ever encounter any opposition nor trouble...

Can you please tell me which of the canon stories (English fiction, I can't read German) does this happen?

Here's a wacky idea... what if instead of net hits increasing the DV of the spell, the DV was simply the Force the spell was cast at? It would certainly encourage more overcasting, but then that means more potential for a mage geeking himself!

I am currently reading 2XS, in wich the Elvish magician basically burn himself to shoot out the Bug Spirit in the first fight, he drop unconsious but is still alive. It was the only spell he casted of all the fight.

In "Choose Your Ennemies Carefully" last fight Hart goes very close to die, but she use other magic before, same for Hart and Sam's Sister in "Find Your Own Truth".

In Novels nearly everytime a Magician cast a spell he suffer from obvious drain, the drain suffered being directly in touch with the spell power, combat spell seeming far more draining that basically utilitarian ones.

Of courses thoses novels are back from SR1 era, but it is what I expect at my gaming table. Someone talk about a Glass Cannon and I think Mages should be just that : Tremendous power in very vulnerable package with the potential to very hurt themselves when ressorting to maximum power.

In my opinion as long as you refrain from ad homiem tactics then it's perfectly polite. I didn't say anyone was an idiot for believing what they did, just that I'm not a fan of the stereotypical arbitrary houserules GM that's as much a RPG persona as the min/maxing powergamer.



No, I'm saying GMs that wield their houserules with an iron fist based on their whims were the "fascists". Let me know which part isn't analogous.



Do I really need to specify "don't reply telling me to shut up"? Because I'd love a reply that didn't consist of "lol you said 'fascist', not cool dude, that has negative connotations".



You're probably correct with this theory, I've literally only been playing for weeks. We played a few sessions to get a feel for the mechanics where I played a Street Samurai and now going for a real campaign and I'm playing a Mage. While I love the Mage for it's versatility as I'm operating as the team medic with a high Logic (hermetic mage) and the Heal spell, carrying lots of utility and support buffs with spells like Levitate, Influence, Imp Invis, Armor etc. and still able to hold my own in a fight with Stunbolt, etc. But that Sammy I made? That was a combat monster and I probably didn't even min/max it correctly, 4 cyberlimbs and some martial arts left me with extremely high armor, tons of physical condition boxes
and called shot "kicks to the face" annihilating anyone, even pistol shots from my humble Preds were incredibly potent simply thanks to the high agility. So yes I have a high dice pool for my Stunbolt/Powerbolt and can cast it safely even at relatively high levels of Force, and it's remarkably effective. But so what? Everyone's a badass it's just a matter of what style badass you want to be. I didn't really feel like my gymnastic cyber skating kickboxing waif was any less a potent character than my booksmart reserved Combat/Manipulation Mage.

I literally cannot understand a proposal like "turn F/2 into F" as that would leave me taking complex actions for less than pistol damage or ramping up the damage to what everyone else was doing at the cost of giant fractions of my health. Why?

I remember having trouble with my shaman in SR2, but the GM wasn't using the magic dice pool so I don't know how it really was. But in SR3, most spellslingers I've seen could cast most spells all day long without getting more than a L wound (which the most munchkinized PC ignored thanks to a trauma dumper).

Short answer: the rules. Show me another example where the attacker rolls 2 stats and the defender only 1. Counterspelling should not have been factored as part of the main spell defense dice pool, because it means you cannot defend against Magic without a mage on your side. This is bad for the game, see my explanation after.



To add a bit to this,I think the differences between SR3 and SR4 archetypes have a big influence here. For thos who don't know: in SR3, gunbunnies NEEDED a smartgun, and the smartgun did not work without an implanted smartlink in the middle brain. Cyberdecks (the equivalent of commlinks) costed several hundred thousands Nuyen. Riggers needed a VCR (Vehicle Control Rig) implant with the same Essence cost as Wired Reflexes. This was a specialist game: no matter what path you chose, you had to invest too much in it to digress. Were mages more or less powerful in SR3? I don't know, and I don't care, because the mage needed the rest of the team to watch his back as they needed him.

Now in SR4, smartlinks don't have to be implanted anymore, so anybody can shoot. Commlinks and programs are dirt cheap and the VCR disappeared, so anybody can hack and rig. Of course not with 20+ dice, but 8-10 are enough more often than not, and Edge is there when you need it. On the other hand, everyone falls to magic unless they have Counterspelling available. This makes the mage the only mandatory member of any team, and this is bad for everybody around the table except the mage: nobody wants to play a mere sideshow.



Not just dealing damage. Also flying, healing, mind controling, stealthing, calling expendable buddies out of thin air,... Combat is just one of the areas of magic, it just so happens that it is also the area of expertise of other archetypes. One could reverse the question: why should the mage claim to just as efficient in combat as a specialist who spent half his points in it, and be able to do so much more aside?

A little late, but whatever.


Lets try this again.

Firearms:

• Samurai rolls Attack Test. Target rolls Defense Test. Defender rolls Resistance Test.
• Samurai rolls Attack Test. Target rolls Defense Test. Defender rolls Resistance Test.

Magic:

• Magician rolls Spellcasting Test. Target rolls Defense Test. Magician rolls Drain Resistance Test.

Magic has Overcasting.
Firearms have Burst / Full Auto fire.


Resource cost:
15: Magician quality
40: Magic 5
15: x5 Spells

vs

30: Augmentation & firearm.

Skill costs are roughly comparable.




Who wins in a straight fight depends entirely on who acts first - ~70/30 in favor of the samurai.
Who wins in an unbalanced fight depends entirely on who acts first - in favor of the samurai.


Magic is indeed powerful. Direct Combat spells are, in fact, overpowered Rules as Written. Direct Combat spells are not, in fact, as powerful as people seem to think; their power comes from the lack of a Resistance test, and is not so extreme as to make any true impact on gameplay - it is simply noticable because it stands out. The only reason I included an alteration to how Direct Combat spells work in my House Errata (which is built around balancing the game) is to streamline the system - not because they needed to be rebalanced.

A well geared Rigger can ruin anybody's party, so long as he can get an invite.

Can a mage can fire 5 long bursts from a GE Vanquisher Heavy Autocannon in a single 3 second pass?

You want a mage killer? If you leverage the tech correctly, you can build a rigger that kills whole cities.

No, they don't. I have made characters lacking any specialized magical defense that are easily capable of defending against & taking out magicians. There are a few ways to do so.


I have played in games where the magician is the sideshow. I have played in games where a magician is redundant &/or unnecessary. I have never played in a game where the spellcaster overshadows the entire team. Such magical characters are almost entirely limited to summoners, and even then often require heavy rules abuse, drugs, &/or augmentation.


They don't. My samurai or bioadept builds always outclass the magician in combat potential - including those that specialize in combat magic.

Please do share

Unless it's going to just be what we've already read 6 times.

Well, what I think is at issue is the fact that drain seems to be a no brainer. But that has alot to do with the build of the NPC's and PC's. With 400 BP you can build up to shrug off most drain.
I mean a force 8 wreck spell, (basicall a powerbolt that is specific to vehicles) causes 5P damage to the caster. So in theory the caster needs 15 dice to shrug it all off. Getting 12 dice is difficult, but not impossible at 400 BP. So more than likely you will be taking 1P of damage.

Does this balance mages vs gun bunnies? That is a matter of opinion. The fact that mooks can be blasted by the truckload with no drain--not much different than if the street sam went at them.

Sadly, close combat can really only hold its own with combat magic if the GM decides that none of the NPCs can't fight their way out of a paper sack and/or never use Full Defense vs. Melee. It's simple math, really. Full Defense vs. melee is Reaction+Skill+Skill and attacking is Agility+Skill. Combat spells, by contrast is Magic+Skill vs. Attritibute+Counter Spelling, and most characters won't have counterspelling. Further, I would argue that not every character is a bad ass. You can build a utility mage who also can toss around Force 8 Stunbolts quite safely with nothing but the spellcasting skills they already have and the price of the spell. A Technomancer, Adept or a Hacker, on the other hand, would need a firearm skill and the Agility to back it up or at least have to figure out a way to sneak a drone in with them. Ultimately, what bothers me about magicians isn't how much firepower they bring to the table so much as it is how little they sacrifice for it, which hits me as a bit off given how hard magic is to defend against.

Willpower 5, Tradition stat of 5 and a fetish will get you those 12 dice. If RC is available then hermetics can get 15 dice by adding to the mix Cerebral Booster 3 and Restricted Gear.

Sad, but that is an actual in game example.

Mages can and do effectively pull out Gauss Rifle level attacks with a much bigger battery pack.

While your Sam might have that same weapon or a canon he isn't carrying it most places. And then the mage can turn people invisible, levitate, heal, summon spirits for combat, concealment, movement etc.

I'd check that player's dice & charsheet calculations if I was you. OR4+, and still getting enough hits to overcome the 16 Body? (Or 16 Body + 20 armor for indirect?)



And the sammy can have high willpower, astral hazing and/or arcane arrestor. Funny how when the odds get stacked on one side, it comes out ahead, eh?

Since I was the mage in question, I'll put up the stats.

Magic 6, spell casting 6, power focus 4, specialization combat spells, mentor dragon slayer. 20 dice.

Oh and a sustaining focus for 4 actions a turn. All that was at char gen. At the citymaster incident he was a grade 2 initiate with masking and extended masking but otherwise the same.

Powerbolts 4 of em. Average 6-7 hits a turn which made my force 9 powerbolts go to 11 damage, 2 shots and a citymaster blows. Though in the specific case where it occurred I got 8 hits on the first spell and 9 on the first spell at the 2nd citymaster. Lucky rolls what can I say.


On a side note,we were trying to build powerful characters for a specific reason. Normally my mages aren't quite that specialized in magic. Though given the breadth of spells and spirit powers it did not seem to hamper my versatility too much.

Yeah, that's why I've never been a big fan of Sensitive System, especially on Hermetics. Taking advantage of essence reductions for mixing and matching is quite strong. Reaction Enhancer 1, Cybereyes 3, Cerebral Booster 2 and a Trauma Damper will put you back exactly 1 essence. Not a bad deal for nuyen progression.


Oh, and for the record, non-living objects targeted by a Direct Spell do not get a Resistance Test, so the 16 Body doesn't do any good. A direct spell vs. a non-living target is just a treated as a Success Test by the caster with Object Resistance serving as the Threshold, with net hits serving to jack up the damage. So why yes, it IS just as easy to start doing raw damage to a Citymaster as it is to a Steel Lynx, and in both cases it's actually somewhat easier than Power Bolting down a big troll (which is why you keep Stun or Mana Bolt around). Direct Combat Spells are stupid like that, hence the topic.

Well said. In some ways magic seems cheaper than technology in SR4.

Someone up thread mentioned going back to the SR3 rules for Force and learning. I think I might do that for my upcoming game (makes it closer to ED style magic too). Not being able to increase the force willy-nilly may go a long way towards fixing things. Also makes the mage and TM closer rules wise. Maybe give both a number of free force/complex forms equal to Willpower or Logic.

Hmm...20R and 16R availablilty items costing 140,000:nuyen: at chargen? Tricky - 30 of your max 35 positive quality points right there?
Over 150 bp for one stat + one skill + a few toys.

Even so, with those kind of rolls, a sammy could have pulled the same thing off (2 shots per pass, destroying 2 vehicles) and with much less cash & fewer bp spent. AND without splitting his dice pool.
(Hell, before 4A gave trollbows a needed nerf, I saw a guy 2-shot a T-Bird with less impressive rolls.)

So it's proof that magic is overpowered why again?



(In those games I've run, I disallow sensitive system UNLESS cyber is actually bought as well)

And body certainly does still have a point - it defines how many boxes of damage the object can take - in the case of a Citymaster, that body 16 means it gets 8 + (16/2) = 16 boxes.
So you need either 5 hits on a force 15+ spell, or +1 hit per -1 force to pull off a one-shot.

Since he was multicasting, he's was actually betting on getting those 5+ successes multiple times (and increasing the drain as well.) Petty damn difficult to get 5+ hits on (12 split)+6 dice reliably. Getting 8-9 is VERY unlikely.

I figured someone might bring up the extra boxes thing, but the rest of it still stands (except for the troll thing, I dunno why I said that) because I was talking about resistance primarily. Once you can beat OR, the damage is still coming in, and you're doing a helluva lot more damage to a city master with one upstaged power bolt than you'll do with most other attacks, much less ones you can easily smuggle around. I won't comment on the multi-casting, because it isn't what I would have done without Edge. You're already doing some severe unresisted damage, after all. Being able to maim a Citymaster with an attack you carry around in your head is good enough for me. I mean, hell, a stock Citymaster rolls 36 dice to resist damage under normal circumstances. I'm guessing the Drain thing you're talking about is another Anniversary change I've never bothered checking out or implementing. I'm more or less done buying Shadowrun products and have been for a while.

Oh, wait, I've looked that one up before. The changes PDF says it was an optional mechanic. Does the print version say otherwise?

Let's get some comparative numbers out here because the gut feeling thing is getting dumb.

A combat mage rolling 18 dice (6 skill, 6 magic, 2 specialty, 2 mentor, 2 power focus) throws a Force 9 (for drain purposes) Powerbolt at a NPC, who we'll say has Body 3. Assume 6 successes for the mage, 1 for the grunt, 5 net hits and the NPC takes 14 DV physical damage and explodes into red mist. The 9 force results in 5 Drain to be resist by a 12 dice pool (say logic 5, willpower 5, fetish 2) and the average 4 hits have the mage taking 1 physical hit.

A gun bunny rolling 19 dice (6 skill, 2 specialty, 9 attribute, 1 smartlink, 1 Reflex Recorder) fires a called shot (-4 dice +4 DV) with his Pred filled with EX-Ex (6 DV -2 AP) at the same NPC who we'll say has Body 3, Reaction 6 and Dodge 6, and he goes on Full Defense. According to the skills chapter, this is the Micheal Jordan of Dodging working as a guard or whatever. He's also wearing his 14R full body armor and helmet with 12 ballistic armor. Assume 5 successes for the gun bunny and 4 for the NPC, then 11 DV of damage vs. 10 modified armor + 3 Body, averaging 4 hits for the NPC who then takes 7 Physical Damage. Since this was a simple action the gun bunny fires again and does 14 DV physical damage and the NPC's brains are splattered against the wall.

Notes: Used a 350 nuyen Pred instead of something serious with burst fire just to really stack the deck against the gun bunny. I didn't use any gear over 12 availability for either and a spellcasting focus is so horribly inefficient I imagine no one gets one (it wouldn't make a difference anyway). An attribute of 9 is pathetically easy to get with a cyberlimb, it'll cost far less than that power focus. I opted against cyberware for the mage but it would just lower Magic by 1 and give him a larger drain resist dice pool from 3 cerebral boosters so change the results to no drain sustained if you are so inclined.

Results: So the same NPC in two situations, who had no counterspelling, not standing behind a Ward with top-notch dodging ability going full defense in fully body armor takes identical damage in 1 IP. It's the best case for the mage and the worst case for the gun bunny and it didn't matter.

The difference in defenses did not make a difference in the end result. The game is balanced, everyone is a badass.

If we were using Drain = F instead of F/2 that Mage would be resisting 10 physical damage, taking 6 of it. And for what, to match the damage of a pistol?!

Regarding role versatility, the gun bunny in this situation actually invested fewer BPs and nuyen into his gun ability than the Mage. Equal skill, equal specialties, but that's 1 attribute at 6 and 2 at 5 for the Mage when the gun bunny could literally have 1 agility base as long as his cyberarm (3) is customized (+3) and enhanced (+3). The gun bunny's nuyen expenditures are also cheaper since Power Foci are incredibly expensive. If this gun bunny wants to be a hacker or a rigger or CQC guy as well? He will have an easier time of it than the Mage. The gun bunny will have a 160 BP headstart (155 for the attributes 5 in the nuyen). You don't even use attributes in matrix actions so the logic doesn't even double dip for the mage =/

Regarding utility versatility with lots of spells, I don't consider that a problem either honestly, it's what you get in exchange for the 15 BP of the quality, the potentially 75 BP you spend in the magic attribute and the 3 BP per spell. Those are costs that others do not pay, and they should yield some perks.

I apologize for the constant use of bold and increased size fonts, I personally think it's a fairly obnoxious practice, but I desperately want to get these points across. I'm new to SR but I know a few other RPG systems and frankly this seems elegantly well designed to me! I love the glass cannon aspect compared to other games where people take ridiculous (by real life terms) strikes and don't blink, and I think the different character aspects are fine. IMO Bound Spirits with a high charisma are crazy, but combat damage? C'mon now.

So, in terms of damage and build points and not nostalgia and gut feelings, tell me where the imbalance lies. I am genuinely extremely curious about your reasoning, because I truly just don't see a problem.

When you say the Sammy could have pulled off the same thing, what do you imagine he is using for a weapon?

Please do both extremes
* Wide open ZZZ carrying massively illegal hardware
* after a pat down on a AAA street corner

Also denote the costs in ammo. For the mage, we can deduct 50 nuyen per scene for the eventual first aid.

BlueMax

You're kidding right? The Sammy could do it with an assault rifle firing APDS in 4 long bursts, 280 nuyen in ammo. There are numerous options for concealing an assault rifle, but I have to ask how the hell are you being patted down when on a shadowrun? Alternatively why do you feel the need to destroy a citymaster when you're out clubbing?

Well technically a rating 4 power focus probably raises some alarms as well so before it is masked you can have trouble, but even without that I'm rolling 16 dice.

And for the record there was no multicasting. The issue was 2 citymasters in a combat turn. I had 4 passes, 4 spells 1 for each pass and 2 citymasters blew up. Most Sams can not pull this off because they don't carry around the artillery to do it. Mages are always have heavy weapons on them.

And yes a Sam can obliterate a guy just as well as a powerbolt. But a Sam can't handle the same range of threats, and the same numbers of threats easily. For the same drain as a powerbolt I can stunball a big ass group of people down. And again this is stuff you have with you at all times. I am sure if a Sam is loaded for biodrone drop bears he can handle a lot as well but how often are you geared up like that? But then when it comes time to help the entire party sneak, the Sam is doing nothing, when we need to probe a mind the Sam is doing nothing, when we need to run at mach 4 the sam is doing nothing, when we need fly across a gap the sam is maybe slowly setting a rope and hook, when we need to poof heal the party nback to full health the Sam ends at first aid skills, and the mages versatility hasn't ended in the pure magic arena yet. And the mage can still hack, shoot, rig etc.

Highly unlikely. A Sam would need 11 net hits with APDS ammo to have a chance to scratch a citymaster with an assault rifle. And the citymasters were being rigged so good luck getting any net hits unless that was a wide burst. And while if you are assaulting an X yeah you might have an assault rifle, you can't exactly conceal them while walking down the street. Even a SMG would be hard to conceal from anyone who is trained.


Edit to add: In a AAA neighborhood you get patted down if you look suspicious in the slightest. Also in this case we were conning our way through security and the con failed after we were inside or maybe as soon as we tried it and they let us in to trap us, as a player I don't really know end result we had to shoot our way out. You don't really take your anti vehicle missiles with you on a con unless you are impersonating arms dealers.

First off, you can't do two called shots in a round. In fact, if you perform a called shot you can't take any other shots in a round (EDIT: I misread the FAQ on this you can take a normal and a called).

Now, by RAW (I haven't seen any errata) the mage can actually cast multiple spells at the same target without needing to split the dice pool (the description of multiple spellcasting says for each target... not each spell cast). Most games people still split the pool though. Either way, the mage can hit multiple targets unlike the street sam with a called shot.

Also, something as simple as Mob Mind can take out an entire group of fully chromed street sams without much difficulty - the player street sam won't be nearly as well off against a group of guys like him.

It was not. Called shot takes a free action so it can only be done once (is multitasking still around? Now that would be useful ). The second shot has a modified DV of 8 (-4 raw damage and 1 more net hit compared to your example). After soaking, the grunt suffers 4S and is still standing.

EDIT: beaten to it But I don't think you have to take aim before calling a shot. Maybe you are refering to this line:



All I understand is that calling a shot does not break the aim chain.

Just put it in a bag to conceal it when walking down the street, heh. I'm not that well versed in firearm combat but AFAIK the vehicle is rolling Reaction + Handling, getting net hits seems pretty simple, the biggest obstacle here is all the various recoil reducing accessories since a long burst is -9 dice +9 DV, but there are enough of them to make this, upon cursory inspection, quite feasible. The 15 DV -6 AP per IP is serious damage, 18 body 20 armor would be a 33 dice pool, 8 hits if you just buy them at 4 a pop instead of rolling that many dice, 7 damage taken.

Edit2: Ah I see the confusion, I meant a Full Auto Burst not a Long Burst. Which an Assault Rifle can still do. Deferring to Mr. Unpronounceable with regards to long burst feasibility, although upon cursory inspection that too will work out.

Edit: Let me spell out the dice pool so you can check the mechanics here too, but a 19 Dice (6 skill, 2 specialty, 9 attribute, 1 recorder, 1 smartgun), -9 Dice for full auto burst, means 10 dice against 5 (6 reaction, -1 handling) for the Citymaster, you're definitely going to hit him. And that's with no recoil compensation. Areas Alpha is 6 DV -2 AP base, APDS is -4 AP, Full Auto Burst is +9 DV, it holds 42 rounds so you have the ammo, so 15 DV vs. 14 Armor means you're doing damage. Body 16 (not 18 as was mentioned above, oops) + armor 20 (modifed to 14) damage resistance means a 30 dice pool. You'll do 8 damage per complex action if the GM doesn't bother rolling the body + armor dice and just buys it and about 5 damage per complex action, on average, if he rolls them all out. That vehicle is going down, 140-280 nuyen in ammo.

Regarding one called shot a round, my mistake but you should definitely still go with free action -> called shot for one of the two shots because trading Dice for DV on a 1:1 basis is incredibly efficient. It and bursts are pretty crazy mechanics for firearm users. If you really want I'll put a Burst Fire weapon in there because you can do multiple bursts in a round.

Er. No...7 base damage -2AP, -4AP = a whole 3 net hits required to "scratch the citymaster."

A long burst doesn't help bypass the armor, but once it does, that +5 damage more or less counters the entire body roll of the van.

Assuming the above, you need, on average, to do about 32 damage between two long bursts to take down a citymaster. i.e. about 4 net hits per burst. Which you can do in one round. Without splitting dice pool.

Not all that difficult, really.

Easier than the 5 hits you need to do the same with "overpowered" magic's split dice pool, anyway, with the bonus of not suddenly dropping to NO damage if you rolled slightly poorly.