Thanks. There really just needs to be a spirit sidebar to lay all that stuff out.

Here's a possible pitfall: The Martial Arts rules. Overpowered or something to give (arguably) underpowered physads an edge? The biggest ones would be adding up to +3 to their DV and using abilities like Feint, Riposte, and Finishing Move to essentially give up all their actions in a turn to utterly one-shot an enemy.

Depending on how you interpret the rules of stacking bonuses, you could get up to +8DV through various martial arts. The question is how much you cling to the casual mention of "dice pool bonuses" afterwards. Personaly, I am in favor of not alowing DV bonuses to stack, leaning towards a VERY literal interpretation of the stacking rules for martial art bonuses.

The errata clearly limits it to +3 DV. But it adds to other modifiers such as bone lacing/density augmentation and the critical strike power. And some of the maneuvers add to the power creep. If you combine full defense, the riposte maneuver, and the counterstrike adept power, you can get a huge dice pool bonus to an attack.

The most potentially powerful maneuver, though, is two weapon style. Full defense without sacrificing an action? For a weapons master adept, that can mean 9 dice added to their parrying rolls. And if you combine it with the aforementioned riposte/counterstrike combo, the character will have a huge bonus for offense, too.

Yes Please...

Underpowered physads? I've got a gunslinger adept who's going to be double-fisting heavy pistols like he's in a John Woo movie with no recoil penalties because he's ambidextrous and going to be firing left gun/right gun each pass, with three passes, rolling seventeen dice per shot! BEFORE edge!

(Breakdown: Pistols: 7 (6 plus Aptitude quality), Improved Ability (Pistols): 4, Agility: 6... 7 + 4 + 6 = 17)

I'm actually getting a little bit scared of what he's going to be doing once he gets an initiation grade or three under his belt...

Why switch guns? The same gun keeps shooting if you pull the trigger again.

I agree.

Recoil.

SR4 (Don't have the anniversary edition yet) for Semi-Automatic Mode:
"The first shot is unmodified; the second shot, if fired in the same Action Phase, takes a -1 recoil dice pool modifier."

First shot from Lefty, then second shot from Righty. No recoil modifiers, no need for anything expensive like custom grips. He can pick up any HP off any guard or ganger and get the same benefits.

EDIT: Also, twice as many shots before he has to reload. With two Colt Manhunters (the guns he bought), that's 32 rounds fired before he has to think about reloading. If you're firing more than 32 rounds at something and you didn't kill it, you should start thinking about a new profession while you run away screaming from whatever it is that took 32 rounds and didn't drop.

Personalized Grip costs 100 Per gun man. That's dirt cheap! Easiest 1 RC for ranged or +1die for melee ever.

Recoil from one hand is shared with the other.

Edit: Also, if you have Str of 6 you get no recoil. Also, if you insist on shooting only once per simple action, you can't beat the Ruger Super Warhawk, that thing is beastly.

Indeed, of course it is. And he has to pay for two guns, and mod them up…

Give them melee hardening, personal grip, smartlink (in case you lose one), custom look:2, fire selection change(So you can go burst fire), and maybe self-propulsion?

Ha! Custom Look, most vital.

Of course! +2 Intimidation! It's amazing!

Can't find the recoil goes for both hands in the rules. Do you have a page number?

Also, Str 6 is pointless for the character...he's an elf first off and a gunslinger with face as a secondary "class". He'd be far better off maxing out Agility at chargen (which he didn't to save a few BP).

And crap, I forgot about the +1 die for the laser sight, so 18 dice.

Recoil is per character, of course.

I'd still say split the dice pool, unless you're running into adepts with combat sense or some other heavy hitters like HTR squads, you're almost always going to hit with 9 dice to cap someone.

Don't you have to split the dice pool when firing two weapons as well now?

What do you mean, 'as well'? That's what they're talking about.

Yeah. So take your 17 dice. (Because laser sights and smartlinks don't work when dual weilding because your brain tryin to processes at once my cause an aneurysm. ) Then split them. So 9 dice in one hand, 8 in the other. Works for me.

Laser & Smart don't give a bonus if you're shooting akimbo !
if You're switching Left-Right, they do give their bonus
(and even if you shoot akimbo ,they still work,they just don't give a Bonus )
And since I'm allready "Nitpicking" (I hope it's the right Word)

@Abstruse
(Breakdown: Pistols: 7 (6 plus Aptitude quality), Improved Ability (Pistols): 4, Agility: 6... 7 + 4 + 6 = 17)
improved ability is max 3 (must be 1/2Skill rounded down) so it's just 16 dice , but thats marginal
A specialisation would add if You shoot akimbo
so It would be (pool 16 /2 = 8 ) 8 +2 (Specialisation) 10 Dice per Single Action per Weapon
so 4 x 10 Dice(Akimbo) or 2x 18 dice per inipass (Left-Right)
MINUS any situational mods (distance,visibility,wounds,etc )
shooting akimbo rules are no pitfall (for Me )


He who dances Akimbo
Medicineman

Its a great place for an answer in the FAQ or an Errata to make the in game penalties clear.

Game Systems need Bug Trackers.

BlueMax

Where does it say you can shoot or do anything but flee in terror?

It is a mind control style effect that says you have to do something. If it does not take up any actions, allows you to act freely other than moving away from the spirit don't you think it would mention that.

RAW says you are fleeing in terror, RAW never says you can do anything else while being forced to by a magical compulsion. My RAW interpretation says you can't do anything, yours is saying you can. I think your interpretation is trying to pull in a separate basic rule to override the specifics here where it says what you are doing. You are fleeing in terror and only fleeing in terror. Not fleeing in terror but otherwise in control of your actions.

Until a FAQ deals with this neither can conclusively be said to be RAW. You think if you couldn't do anything else it would be specified, I think RAW shows that all you are doing is fleeing and if you could take other actions it would have specified.

That's a ridiculous argument. It has to explicitly list what the power does or the power doesn't do it. RAW it says you move away from the critter, out of LoS and a "safe distance" away. That's it. Anything else is you adding into it, if fear was meant to incapacitate the target it would say "and taking no other actions".

The errata needs to either give "overwhelming terror" an in game effect or remove the section. As its in the powers description , I am assuming ie was not fluff.

Till such a time, I consider the character overpowered mentally.

BlueMax

I say it's written fine with "overwhelming terror" being fluff. If I was combat trained (and even if I weren't) and I saw something that scared the everloving hell out of me enough to make me run away screaming, I'd do it while unloading my weapon at it. Sure, it'd be blind panic fire, but still...

So. -2 to everything (like Disorientation), or -6 to shooting ('blind' panic), or forced use of Sprint actions, or … ? Make those all 'and/or', actually.

An errata would be needed for that to be canon, but I'd house rule it that you'd take -4 penalty to hit or you'd have to use suppressing fire rules since you're firing in panic.

Suppression fire is good... assuming that your weapon is capable of performing said suppression fire that is...

Is sleep defined in the rules?

If the power was sleep and not fear and it put the target to sleep for force combat turns would you be saying you still get all your actions while you are sleeping because it is not defined in the rules?

This is the same thing, they are telling you what is happening. You are running away in overwhelming terror. Not a controlled movement away where you have all your actions. You are fleeing in overwhelming terror and that is it., no more actions at all. If fleeing in overwhelming terror meant you move away but otherwise can act and take all your actions they would say that.

The only ridiculous arguments are the ones where you blindly stick to a idea with an unwillingness to listen to other points of view. Some how I think that's only you here.

Lol, pot calling the kettle black? Your example is also horribly flawed by the way, as sleep has a solid definition with limits to actions while "overwhelming terror" is a damn mood. The only part of this:



that's relevant is the "running away" part. I don't care if the spell causes them to flee while feeling "overwhelming shame" or feeling "overwhelming anger" or feeling "overwhelming disgust". The key point is that they're running away and won't face the critter willingly, it's the only aspect that's actually defined in game terms.

You need to let go of your preconceived notions and read what's written, not what you want to see. The very fact that you're trying to say that "terror" is as agreed upon a condition as "sleep" when a) we have pages in this thread debating what the modifier for that should be and b) each person reacts differently to fear IRL should be a big sign of the folly of this line of argument.

I agree with the "no other actions than fleeing" interpretation. I think the books wording spells this out pretty well: (4a, p.295)



"Overwhelming terror" and "race in panic" mean that your brain is now in animal mode. You don't tactically retreat or plan your escape route or consider how to retaliate, all you can do is oh f*ck oh f*ck oh f*ck get away get away get away...

Now, if the monster chases you and you become cornered and can't flee anymore, then you can be the proverbial "cornered animal" and fight back. Maybe even get some berserk bonuses or something

I'm afraid not.

Ba-dum *ching*.

No no no.

Ba-dum *tshh*

And also: Wah-wah wahhhhh

I like it when they let the cymbals ring (*ching*) instead of damping it (*tsh*).

Personally, I feel the *ching* strikes the wrong kind of chord. A *tsh* allows better resonance for the canned studio audience laughter.

Well, I am a frayed knot back

BlueMax

To qupte me "It also heavily implies you are not shooting behind your back, not dropping grenades etc. But I can see letter of the rule fans allowing it.

RAW says you are fleeing in terror, RAW never says you can do anything else while being forced to by a magical compulsion. My RAW interpretation says you can't do anything, yours is saying you can. I think your interpretation is trying to pull in a separate basic rule to override the specifics here where it says what you are doing. You are fleeing in terror and only fleeing in terror. Not fleeing in terror but otherwise in control of your actions.

Until a FAQ deals with this neither can conclusively be said to be RAW. You think if you couldn't do anything else it would be specified, I think RAW shows that all you are doing is fleeing and if you could take other actions it would have specified."

Notice how I say I can see how some would allow it, how nothing can conclusively be said to be RAW but this is my interpretation. That implies I am keeping an open mind. Hmmn, and you just attack and make snide comments. So no its not the pot calling the kettle black. And no I think "overwhelming terror: has a fairly solid definition on it limiting actions. It being overwhelming and all.



Sure the overwhelming terror part might be pure fluff and have no meaning what so ever. But it is written in the description of the power, and you are just ignoring it. If it is fluff, sure you are correct you just move away not even at a sprint, with no loss of actions but the free action for movement. If it is a descriptor for what state you are in, then no you can't do anything because you are overwhelmed by terror.

There's a difference between fleeing in fear and paralyzed with fear. You'd be keeping an open mind if you stopped insisting that "terror" is a state that the game defines. It's not, we have no idea what rules-wise being terrified entails and if we default to examples from reality you should openly admit that terrified people can fight back, there were even youtube videos linked earlier in the thread demonstrating this.



It's a magical compulsion to run away. Your own words keep expressing this point, look at what you wrote in this quoted text, the verb is always "fleeing" or some synonym and "terror" is just the reason you're fleeing. The power could be called Disgrace instead of Fear and could cause you to run away in shame instead of terror and it wouldn't make a difference mechanically.

As I've said over and over, if you want to add on extra penalties to be realistic then go ahead. But they're not in any way written there and this critter power seems quite balanced.

This is the part that gets me. The word "Overwhelm" is there , in the rules section. Others are using the word provided. Right, wrong, or neutral, to do so, they are reading it in the rules section. What "race in panic" means is also stated. Neither of these quoted sections have clear rules associations.

Some of us can't imagine someone's mind losing all control, and some of us can't imagine even remotely shooting over ones shoulder while running away. Heck, don't even get me started on "Safe distance".

How to selectively read the rules is an exercise left to reader without a FAQ or ruling.

BlueMax

Yes. In one case you're racing away from the spirit...

Thank you Phlapjack77 for the quote. The word "racing" implies not a tactical withdrawal but the use of all your "run faster" training. So what can you do while using Athletics to run faster? Can you shoot a gun and jump hurdles?

...Not that I would enforce that interpretation... at least not strictly.

Actually it's a magicall power that fills it target with overwhelming terror and causes them to race in panic for the nearest point of apparent safety.
Nothink of that impilies that you can actually just casually move away while taking your normal actions.

Different characters will react to it in different ways.

Let your players decide what terror means to their character.
Roleplaying isn't a recipe nor is it a science.

Players can't be trusted with that, that's why there are rules. The group should decide this ahead of time.

Or, and I am just spitballing here, the game could use well defined and clearly written mechanics.

/me shrugs

BlueMax

Or, the GM could adjudicate what happens based on the circumstances (and not necessarily in the same way in different situations and with different critters).

How does this work in a shared campaign like Missions?

BlueMax

BlueMax, we're discussing an absence of those clear rules. Which is more likely: the group decides ahead of time, or the Errata are published?

I try to maintain a hopelessly optimistic view. If its a problem for Missions, the missions director could post a Missions only ruling.

The group can't really decide anything. This is why the world has rules and structure.

BlueMax
/that last line may have sounded pessimistic
//but its not