Not the perfect example I was looking for (there are better ones if I can only remember), but how about a high level Knowledge softs for say: Gang Territories
Gang Territories change all the time due to wars/wipe outs ect, so unless the soft gets periodic updates, it can't be correct all the time.

I believe there is a rule for degradation of skillsofts in Unwired unless legal (over-the-matrix updates from the publisher) or equivalent.

Congrulations, you just made the most useless technomancer ever, with zero complex forms to start with, this character fill never be an effective at any matrix tasks

And you think the goal of such a build is to be good in the 'Trix, rather than to get 4IP at no Essence cost?



Find me a quote for that rule. I checked SR4A, and Unwired. There is no such rule for Resonance.

Not a good argument to use unless you also have a rules quote supporting negative attributes and gaining karma by raising them.

You are just using the fact that going outside the normal boundaries and applying the 5 * New Rating gives you a negative karma value for the Character Improvement cost.

Like I originally said, going outside the normal range of operations in a build is a problem with any character build, not just TMs.

For discussion you might want to look at the effects of a 0 Physical and Mental attribute.

From Decrease Attribute spell
"The target resists the spell using the attribute affected. If the caster
wins, the attribute is reduced by the spell’s net hits. If a Physical attribute
is reduced to 0, the victim is incapacitated or paralyzed. If a Mental
attribute is reduced to 0, the victim stands about mindlessly confused."

I haven't found one, but this bit from latent Technomancer implies you need resonance of at least 1 to be a TM.

"Once the gamemaster had decided that the character’s abilities
have fully manifested, the character gains a Resonance attribute
of 1. If the character has an Essence of less than 6 at this point,
she still receives the Resonance attribute, although her maximum
Resonance is reduced accordingly. If her Essence has dropped
below 1, then she has no chance of ever being a technomancer."

BTW, you forgot all the free karma for all the negative complex forms. While you are at it, you might as well get all your karma for all the other negative karma stuff

All that gives you is a rule that is not applicable (as it pertains to a particular spell effect) and reducing the problem down to being able to Increase the resonance attribute back to 1 for measly 5 Karma, while still having 4 points worth of Essence in Enhancements. The main problem is that 0 Resonance does not mean you lose your technomancer abilities as opposed to Magic, where it is stated explicitly. Regardless of how you look at it, the rule is still fishy.


Implications give a hint at intentions. They have no impact on rules, though. While I completely agree with the intention, I am arguing the rule here. After all, this thread IS about rule pitfalls.


No Complex forms were purchased in that excemple. What other "negative karma stuff"?

Nope, there's a paragraph that says Resonance works the same as Magic, so it's all implied. As if we needed it and this weren't all a silly thought experiment.

Where? I asked for a rules quote before. Give me one and I am a happy camper!

I forget. It basically says, 'As Magic, Resonance …'. That's not the point. The point is that you don't need one, and neither does anybody else.

I'd just like to point out that this thread is about 'Rule Pitfalls', i.e. situations where there is actually a danger of a GM ending up in trouble due to badly written rules. Whatever D2F has been arguing for is something that every GM would ban the instant he heard it, and it is therefore quite irrelevant.

That's not a valid counter, though. If you can't produce it, it doesn't exist. I've been looking for anything like that like crazy, but I couldn't find it, for the life of me. To my knowledge, and unless I see a quote that says otherwise, all that reducing resonance to 0 does it to limit all technomancer skills and abilities to a rating of 0. It doesn't say that you also lose your technomancer abilities.
It does so for Magic, not for Resonance.

If I am wrong and you can show me a oproper rules quote, I'd be very grateful!


I praise your omniscience, to know what every GM would do....

If I were GM I'd make you take the common sense quality.

I don't have to produce it, because I don't care. Not even a tiny bit. But, it's there, cuz I read it.

Every GM in history, present, and future, did ban, is banning, and will ban it. Omniscience IS nice.

I'm going to side with Yerameyahu, here: saying "Resonance works like Magic" just makes sense. Actually trying to argue that the zero Karma Technomancer build is legit makes no sense at all, even in a missions game. It's absurd.

Congratulations, you found a hole in the rules that is really easy to close by making a basic logical assumption. Have a cookie.

1.) Of course you don't HAVE to produce it. Neither would I want to force you (as if I even could). I was ASKING you to produce because I would like to read it for myself, to verify your claim. Which, to this point is nothing but conjecture.
2.) It's not "there because you read". You think you know you read it. Dissonance effects are a bitch. aren't they?
3.) Your assumption about omnisciene is unproven, unproveable and worthless. Hell, I am inclined to allow it, just to prove you wrong!


Is there any particular reason you are patronizing me? The build would be legit. It would also be absurd. I would not allow it. Whether or not I or you would allow it is completely irrelevant, though. How about you simply say "yes, D2F, you are right" unless you can actually prove me wrong, instead of turning to personal insults?

In cases as these, I take the 'reasonable person' standard. One doesn't need to be omniscient to apply this. Your rules wrangling isn't going to convince anybody. In some cases, rules lawyering can convince people. This isn't one of those.

LOL and after how many points of karma is that.
I can do the same at chargen quite easily.

And hes patronizing you cos you act like a 5 year old,i'm sorry to say that but you really do.

And man i could maybe understand you if you were rules lawyering for a munching build, but this isn't even something that will ever be a desand character.

I suggest the task at hand be tabled until the hymnals can be consulted, rather than have this useful thread degenerate into poo-flinging.

It stinks, even on the Internet.

I'm going to say one thing and one thing only


"dont feed the trolls"

Even those if you dont think your trolling we can all see the horns and dermal deposits

I am not trying to convince anyone. Why do you think I would?


Because I ask for an actual rules quote rather than simply kowtowing to conjecture? Because I think the possible rule interpretation is absurd? Because I answered a request that has since been barraged with no actual counter-argument (with the sole exception of negative attribute values, which is a draw)? Because I questioned the nescessity for personal attacks?

Explain yourself! How am I "acting like a 5 year old"?

This is ridiculous! You can't prove me wrong and instead of simply saying "You're right, D2F, that possible, yet legal exploit is stupid", you resort to patronizing and personal attacks. And I don't even expected to be right. I don't even WANT to be right, because I think that rules exploit is retarded, which is why I was asking so often about a rules quote that would prove me wrong. And your answer to that are personal attacks? And you are calling ME "acting like a 5 year old"?

Sick and tired of this, don't care, moving on please.

So guys: Hardened armor. Controversial, yes?

It just means you need a nuclear bunker buster instead of your run-of-the-mill.

It's not that I don't understand your point, D2F, that RAW is occasionally (accidentally, meaninglessly) wrong. After all, you're the crazy person who argued contacts block Astral Perception. I just know how far to take a joke.

Yeah, I remember that

This time it's not a joke, though. I wouldn't even be arguing, if I hadn't been asked for an excemple and subsequently attacked after providing one. I am not even DEFENDING the exploit. I said repeatedly that I find it absurd. Yet, I am labeled a troll, I am patroniized and I am personally attacked. Neither of which by you, mind you. As far as I am concerned, we can all drop the argument. I still expect an apology or an explanation for the personal attacks, though.

A starting Dronomancer can thread his Command CF up to 12. Command takes the place of any attribute used when doing tasks through RC (not jumped in) operation, other than perception. The Tutor Sprite (which Dronomancers can naturally access) can add half his level as an equivalent skillsoft to any technical or knowledge test. In addition to that, the aid task bonus can be used as well. So, a starting Dronomancer can whip up a few R6 sprites, register them, and then use them to roll 17 (for defaulted actions) to 21 dice (on technical skills) for pretty much any task in game which one could accomplish by Remote Operation. So, shooting a mounted gun with gunnery or a regular weapon in the hands of a droid becomes just as easy as if a Street Sam were doing it. Infiltration? Hits are limited by handling+piloting skill, but you're still throwing 17 dice with no training, so he can out ninja a ghost, just using a joystick.

Point is, 'Mancers are everywhere they want to be.

So the OP did say he didnt want to debate any of these pitfalls, so can we move off this ridiculous example and contribute something that isnt mindless drivel?

Overcasting, oversummoning.

It just stays at 0 thus you burn out so yeah.

There is no burnout rule for Technomancers. I mentioned that already. It would be extremely kind of you not to "present" me with "information" that I already explained to be erroneous.

I'm gonna drop it from this point on. I don't even care much about it and I just keep getting flak for something that's not my fault. In case you wondered, why I did reply (again): I get irritated by replies to my posts that contain factually incorrect information.

Can't we move on? There is nothing in RAW that says so, we know that by now. Jesus.

What exactly keeps you from moving on? I am only responding to replies to my posts. Had no one replied to any of them, how would things have unfolded? Don't blame me.

Like I said Sithney, great at their specialty. Being limited to remote control is exactly what 'specialty' means.

I'm blaming everyone who replied after it got clear that the quote you demanded doesn't exist. And I'm blaming you for replying over and over again.

Fair enough. I can accept the responsibility for replying.

Sorry Grinder... Had to do it...


How about this... In the Latent Technomancer description...



Looks like you use the Same rules for a Magician's Magic applied equally to a Technomancer's Resonance...

or how about this one, from the SR4A book... Page 239 under the Topic: Resonance (Paragraph: Implants and Resonance)



Seems pretty evident that you treat Resonance Ratings exactly like Magic Ratings. At Less than 1 (Unless Initiated/Submerged) you lose your Abilities completely... Any Initiations/Submersions would allow you to raise your Special Attribute above your cap, and as long as you initiated/Submerged before losing that final point of essence, you could keep your abilities... though with a Maximum for your Special Attribute equal to your Initiation/Submersion Grade, rather than your Essence + Initiation/Submersion Grade.

You can argue that that is not so... but in my opinion (which is supported in at least 2 places that I can find, though not explicitly spelled out in excruciating detail) it IS just like that...

Keep the Faith

Thank you so much very much for taking that burden.

At least I made you laugh

Oh god yes, as a GM this one really cheeses me off. There is nothing more annoying than a magician using edge to oversummon a force 10 spirit that I am now obligated to find a polite way of destroying before it murders most of the facility they're trying to infiltrate. I tend to use house rules capping force on things so that people don't suddenly put pieces into play so much more dangerous than the situations is tailored too.

Just have the spirit use it's edge on the summoning test as suggested in Street Magic. A Force 10 Spirit has 10 edge so it'd be rolling 20 dice, rerolling 6's. The Mage can likely still win the test with a high base dice pool and rerolling failures, but now he's facing ridiculously seriously drain, 12-14 physical damage.

SR4A, p.68:

"Characters with Magic or Resonance attributes are subject to penalties if they have an Essence lower than 6. For each point or partial point of Essence below 6, the character loses 1 full point from her Magic or Resonance and the maximum for that attribute is reduced by 1. The maximum rating for Magic is 6 + initiation grade (see Initiation, p. 198); for Resonance the maximum rating is 6 + submersion grade (see Submersion, p. 243)." (emphasis mine)

This rule also appears on SR4, p.62.

I can take no credit for this quotation of rules, as it was edited into a reply somewhere on page 2. Coming late to the party gave me the opportunity to notice the reference.

Why is Seattle such a powerful setting?











Because the weather's always Overcast.

BADUM-CHISS

But Control Weather is a critter power...?

I knew that already. The question was not about reducing the max rating, but Burnout.


Just use lagos as your campaign setting. A BC of anywhere between -2 and -5 all over the area will limit overcasting and it's effects dramaticaly =)

This isn't a problem with overcasting, it's not even a problem with oversummoning. It's a problem with spirits in general - they are either way too easy or way too powerful. I'm getting the impression that the GM needs to be very strict on what counts as a service; maybe the stronger the spirit, the stricter the spirit is about what it will do - that makes sense and is how other games with summoning rules have worked, even if it's not how shadowrun technically operates.

BobChuck -

And now we get to the can of worms that is spirits. I've been wrestling with it in my own game - thank Ghost the mage in the team isn't abusive with his spirit summoning.

I've been considering working on re-jiggering the hardened armor aspect of Immunity to Normal Weapons. Since the hardened armor makes them immune to shots that are less than (or equal to) 2 times their force, you run into a weird problem with spirits of moderate to high force - they are immune to most shots, but if anything gets over their hardened armor, they are pretty much toast.

Consider a force 5 spirit with immunity to normal weapons. Has 5 body, 10 armor. Shot has to do at least 11 damage to affect it. An 11-box attack, rolling 15 dice the average number of hits is 3-4. So it goes from taking between no damage at all to 7-8 boxes of damage. There's next to no middle ground. And from experience, PCs faced with a spirit pull out all the stops, burn a bunch of edge, and get enough hits to flat out kill the spirit in one shot.

It gets worse with higher-force spirits. Force 8 (a serious badass), with 8 body and 16 armor. To pierce the armor you have to get up to 17 boxes. On 24 dice to resist, you have an average of 8 hits, resulting in 9 boxes of damage.

The way the Immunity thing works, it makes the spirits...brittle. I'm not sure how to fix that, or even if I should, but it bothers me.

Oh, and the other thing to keep in mind when dealing with spirits (and sprites) is their insane Edge rating - equal to their Force. Means lots and lots of rerolling (particularly on those defense tests above), and can really bog down the game.

ItNW is still subject to AP. I find that lessens the impact quite a bit.
Also, consider that the higher the Body, the more damage boxes the Spirit has. That F8 Spirit would have 12 Boxes, for excemple, so the 9 boxes of damage wouldn't kill it. There are also other powers, like Concealment that help to avoid the players notice the Spirit in the first place.
Also: 10 damage is not exactly hard to come by. My Troll does that with his bare fists.

Well spirits are a problem in general but at the force 1-3 area they are fine for utility roles, force 4-5 they can stand up fairly well in a fight, above force 6 they are hard to deal with, and even below force 6 some of there powers are a pain in the ass. Things like fear that work on forcex2 vs a single stat just wreck things. Though you can wreck the spirit at lower levels so you at least can fight it.

So while spirits can pose some problems in general it is when they get into the overcast levels of power that they become a real hassle for the GM.

And overcasting causes problems with spells as well, or maybe its better to say the low drain of some spells creates an overcasting problem. I have never understood why they make stun spells easier to resist.(all the way from 1e on) Heck I wouldn't even give a discount for mana spells since willpower is the generally weaker that. If stunball was f/2+3 drain it might get overcast at force 9 a bit less. Not sure about that thanks to the next and tied in issue GMS should look out for.

First Aid. If you want to have lasting damage on the players due to how easy it is to wrack up first aid dice and then have the mage throw a heal spell(not for drain though) you kind of have to knock the players into death door land. A serious wound(6 boxes) will not be there for the next encounter.

Sure but for many players and more importantly sec forces 10 boxes is hard to come by. They have to pull out the APDS or other issue mentioned stick and shock for it. An assault rifle needs I think 4 net hits with normal ammo to hurt a force 5 spirit, which is a absurdly easy to summon spirit.