Right. If a SINner and a SINless both leave incriminating evidence while running on a fake SIN, they're both going to wind up in a database somewhere regarding that fake SIN, any biometric data involved, etc. The only difference is that the SINner may also have their SIN 'updated', and any known associates, relatives, etc connected to it might get questioned, or, in the case of really nasty people, threatened, or whatnot. Whereas the SINless won't have any records of such connections to harass. So, advantage SINless, but SINner IS a negative quality. It's supposed to provide some trouble.

On the other hand, I don't see how being a SINner is actually going to make it any easier to identify you in the short term, on a run or just after one, and I doubt that a fake SIN failing is going to automatically alert someone along the lines of 'Oh hey, here's their real SIN'. If they actually CATCH you, yes, the SINner may wind up with various agencies/groups/corps already having interest in you, increasing your legal liability considerably. On the other hand, if you're SINless, but have had the same number of fake SINs fail or wind up needing to be burned, those same people will likely have built their own composite of your information, and might just track you down while you're in 'processing', which can last as long as whoever holds you feel like it, since you have no legal rights.

SINner and Criminal SINner are supposed to be largely hooks for story, not some sort of magical database-fu for you to be (much) more easily caught in the first place. I mean, assuming you're living a generally runner-friendly lifestyle, rather than living a double life and still making everyday use of that SIN in the first place. That's a bit more risky, but that's more of an RP choice than anything.

mage goggles, fiber optics

those sunglasses you can buy in any toy store, in RL, that have the outside edge, on the inside, mirrored; so as you can see behind you. spy glasses

boar rounds

flash-pack, ultrasound goggles; disco-Physical adept

Irish giants that dress like leprechauns.

killing blue eyed, blond hair children, before they have the chance to become a plot device.

Mind Probe, Control Mind, Divination, Psychometry, UWB Radar, etc.: These can so easily ruin any attempt at telling a story or presenting a challenge. Anything that effortlessly removes my ability to keep central plot elements hidden is banned.

Ridiculous amounts of soak dice, Spirits' IMtNW as Hardened Armor: If you want to not be threatened by small arms fire, you have to bring a power suit or an armored vehicle. Most types of power gaming don't bother me, but when I can't realistically throw anything at a PC that threatens him, and things that merely scratch him instantly mincemeats his team members, things just stop working.

How do you deal with a Spirit's IMtNW then? Are they just totally immune to anything that isn't magic? Or do you ignore IMtNW entirely and they just have normal armor?

They just get it as regular armor.

Is there a particular reason for this major nerf of spirits.

So in your game high force spirits get laughed at. Gotcha. As Max asked, any particular reason for this?

In the game I have just started running, I haven't disallowed anything, as long as it's in the core book - first time with new system = keep things basic.

Stuff outside the core is case-by-case: chameleon coating on car = OK, tradition from Street Magic = OK, absurd optimizations from Unwired = Not OK (they do not make your character better, just force me to do more prep, as anything you have, they would have).

I've also reduced the effectiveness of certain things:

Spirits - Immunity to Nonmagical Weapons = Force, not Force x2
Spirits - An "overcast" summoning spell will have the spirit automatically use Edge to resist

Dice Pools - at the moment, everything is capped at 20. Note that this is dice pools, so before splitting / applying modifiers.

Electrical - Players simply asked not to use SnS, Stun Baton, etc, due to the rules complications that result.
So far, no issues with above; should it come up:
Electrical - Threshold for stun/penalty is "net hits on attack roll", not "3" (not realistic, but easy)
Electrical - Damage for SnS, Stun Baton, etc is halved

You can't do anything to my un-hardened spirits that you can't do to hardened spirits with Stick-n-Shock by RAW.

I didn't want SnS to be the be-all-end-all of ammo, so I houseruled them to fit a less-than-lethal role. Then spirits couldn't be countered by mundanes. So I removed their hardened armor.

Going by RAW, where everyone just loads SnS to effectively remove their hardened armor anyway, is really no different with regards to balance, except people without guns can fight spirits too under my houserule.

You are aware this makes immunity worthless, right? A heavy pistol (without special ammo) has 5P damage and AP of -1, this means that it can damage an F6 spirit without any trouble (AP reduces armor to 5, and have to get at least 1 net hit to hit the spirit anyway, so automatically breaks immunity).

Throw some APDS ammo into the pistol and it can take on an F10 spirit without flinching.

Well, I don't believe you're supposed to hurt high-force spirits with anything short of milspec weaponry. A Force 8+ spirit is the magical equivalent of a MBT. If you're expecting to fight those on a regular basis, bring some weapon foci, magic support or Gauss/Laser/Elemental weapons.

I do agree that SnS is absurdly effective in fighting off spirits, but that is more of a problem with SnS than with spirits. Spirits are supposed to be big bads. SnS took that away, but simply weakening SnS would give it back to them.

What kind of uber spirits are you throwing at your players, if mundanes cant harm then without S&S. Simple heavy pistol loaded with APDS can take out force 5 spirits quite easily.
A douple barreled shotgun unloading both barrels with APDS can take out force 7 ones with relative ease.
And the hunting rifle of doom unloading both barrels of APDS can do the same eaven easier
Sniper rifles can also make shrot work of spirits of relativly high force.

The only thing I disallow is teh emotitoy. I think those things are goofy and a good way to break the game. Plus, they are not very Shadowrun like in theme.

Other than that, I am usually fair game. My group is new to Shadowrun so I have basically restricted them to the Core Book for now. As tehy gain experience, I will throw new stuff at them to mess around with and introduce new rules. It lets my players slowly become acclimated to the game and allows me to take it slow and resist the temptation to screw them too early!

Oh yeah, Stick N Shock does not work on spirits like most would like it too. It is not a spirit killer in my game. Nope.

That is what an attack of will is for and has always been for. If you need to deal with a spirit, have a mage around for maximum spirit killing or make an attack of will.

I find that a HMG on a gyro mount with EX-EX works wonders for manifested spirits

I'm not talking about what I throw at players, I'm talking about what the players throw at NPCs. By RAW a few 3 agi 3 pistols guards with heavy pistols can't even touch a force 6-7 spirit unless they have SnS ammo, in which case they easily gun it down. I don't like everyone having to carry SnS, and I don't like a mage with no visible weaponry or armor being able to summon a spirit that is effectively invulnerable.

Rule #1 of Lone Star
If there's a guy running around with chromeboys, and he has no visible armor or weapons. Kill him first.

S&S does jack shit at helping agi 3 pistols 3 guards at taking out spirits. those spirits have lot more dice to dotge then those guys have to shoot, so their very raraly even gonna hit and S&S doesn't help with that.
Grunts are SOL if PC.s summon relativly high force spirits S&S or no S&S.

Spirits, even force 8+, are very easily taken down with SnS ammo. Spirits are not some big bad invincible things.

By RAW, spirits are easy to take down. I preferred to keep spirit survivability at the RAW level while nerfing SnS rounds.

If you think that spirits aren't powerful enough by RAW, go ahead and nerf their only easy counter.

Spirits have an easy counter. It is called magic/banishing.

PCs doing anything with personafixes has also been banned in our game, and the GM stated any use of them would bring a THOR shot.

Not really. Even 3 grunts with SA weapons gets 6 shots total, by the last shot the spirit is down 5 dice for defense, which will give the grunt a larger dice pool. Statistically, even a high force spirit will take a few hits, and even against a force 7 spirit the guards only need 2 net hits to penetrate the hardened armor (or a +1DV called shot to penetrate the hardened armor every time). If it gets in melee, its defense pool goes down -3 dice, making hits even more likely, plus the grunts can move in to point blank range for another +2 dice on their attack.

They really aren't a problem to take down in open combat, even for a few grunts.

Aside from the ITNW and the fact that the other RUNNERS are not gonna ignore the grunts.

Those grunts have 6 dice to shoot that spirit, before modifiers probaply -2 from visibility and maybe -1 or even -3 from range(spirits powers are LOS range, no need to get close) leaving them with 1-4 dice most likely, i doupt their getting in 2 net hits even if there are 3-4 of them shooting that spirit.
Also if they're in point blank range then thy'r most likely in melee with the spirit meaning -3 dice to shoot compined with the bonus thats effective -1.
And ofcource what Stahlseele said about the runners also beign there.

Why are they not doing wide bursts?
Why are there only 3?

Your guards are out manned, and out gunned, and you're complaining they're going to lose?

Wait, what? Since when does being in melee give you a defensive penalty against ranged attacks?

Yeah, sure, if three of them take turns firing single shots at the spirit, it might be a bit of a problem, and if there is no one else they have to worry about, and if the spirit is just standing there waiting to be shot at, and if the spirit doesn't dodge to double its DP.

If a spirit is getting taken out by mooks, then the mage is doing a very bad job of using their spirit, SnS or no SnS, IMtNW or no IMtNW.

So what's the solution then? Give me a good fix that isn't the even more broken alternative of by-the-book Stick and Shock. One that lets basic shadowrunners who aren't min-max builds deal with a rank 3 spirit. One that let's non-mages fight off a spirit when it goes after them.

Because I've checked the forums, I've asked several times, and no one has a good answer to this problem.

Bring a Mage or an Adept? Is this really that hard? I'm pretty sure Stunbolt will do a fine job here!

You've heard of someone drawing a gun, aiming it at a runner, squeezing the trigger, not killing the runner and living? That I don't believe.

I believe it. As long as this is happening about 500 yards out.

That is the general solution. In the words of Uncle "Magic must defeat Magic!"

Mundanes have terrible defense against magic in general. They can't resist anything beyond a F1 spell with any real likelyhood, they can't see even a weakling 1 magic mage that casts invisibility, they can't take down a spirit.

That said, it isn't so horrid. An F3 spirit is injured by 1 net hit on a heavy pistol, an F4 spirit by 2 net hits on an assault rifle, an F5 spirit by 1 net hit on a heavy pistol loaded with APDS, or 1 net hit on an assault rifle with EXEX rounds. An F6 spirit only needs APDS rounds in an assault rifle to make it an easy 1 net hit target. And once you get past that you have to start looking at heavy weaponry or skilled opponents, but once you get past that, you really shouldn't be looking at mooks having a hope of doing anything except annoying the spirit.

BobChuck -

I think the solution is to modify the Immunity to Normal Weapons power. I'm toying with changing it in my game, mainly to deal with the egg-shell problem that spirits have (e.g. once you pierce the Immunity, they tend to die instantly).

My first idea is to go with Immunity meaning that damage against them is immediately reduced by their force. Against a force 5 spirit, an 8P attack immediately becomes 3P, and then they get to roll Body + Force to soak the remaining damage. I'd have to noodle it some more to see if there are any problems, but I thought I'd toss it out for general consumption.

Again, mundanes shouldn't exactly have a defense against spirits. If your group is mostly mundanes, your GM should be running mostly mundane opposition. Mundanes have an option called an attack of will to damage a spirit, that is about it. If you can get some good dice rolls and get past the hardened armor then congrats but otherwise, hire a NPC mage or something.

Just to clarify, attacks of will bypass ITNW/hardened on spirits.

I find that everyone has options against spirits. High STR characters bypass the ITNW just by overdamaging - gunbunnies are the same way. Mages have the quickest and easiest option, whereas Faces and other high-Charisma/middling Willpower characters have the attack of will option to disrupt the spirit with their cult of personality.

The options aren't great, but there are options nonetheless.

I disagree with your claim that this is a problem.

I think we are pretty much agree on all counts about this subject. Mundanes have options but they don't have easy options. Magic should be your best counter against spirits. Stick N Shock just does not work how people want it to.

Okay fine, nerf SnS. Now all runners carry tasers for spirits. Now what? You're just going to get into an endless cycle of problem and supposed "fix".

Funny you don't look in your book first, but anyways:

SR4A p. 160 / SR4 p. 151

Defender in Melee Combat
A character dodging and weaving in melee combat with another opponent
has a more difficult time dodging attackers coming from a
distance. The defender suffers a –3 dice pool modifier against ranged
attacks, regardless of how many characters he is in melee with.



That's not the argument here. I don't have spirit ItNW act as hardened armor, people ask why I nerf spirits like that, I demonstrate that by RAW even grunts with SnS in SA weapons can easily bypass the hardening, from which it follows that removing the hardening isn't a nerf to spirits.

People are simply mistaken in their belief that hardening does much for spirit survivability - all it does is cause people to equip themselves with SnS ammo to counter it. Removing the hardening isn't a nerf, it merely opens more ammo options (and allows me to nerf SnS without upsetting game balance).

Who says tasers work? Same reason Stick N Shock doesn't work in my campaign. The needles will never get past the hardening. To me, it kind of kills my suspension of belief that a little hook can totally frag a spirit with hardened-like armor. The taser does not send out an electric arc; a taser shoots a wire that hooks into you that delivers an electric shock. To think that a hook could latch on to something that is suppose to be able to bounce bullets and regular melee attacks off of it is just ludicrous in my opinion.

My plan for my game is to identify which items I take issue with (Stick n' Shock, Control Thoughts) that I think 'break' the game and cause more problems then they're worth, talk with my players, and see if we can come to an agreement. The list isn't endless. Getting rid of things like Stick N' Shock for the purpose of everyone having fun is partially to prevent an endless arms race between players and GM (i.e. making as a GM having to use Force 10 Spirits because all my potential players are loaded out with Stick N' Shock or what have you.) If you as a GM or a player feel these types of house-rules are too restrictive, that's fine, I doubt I'll see you at my table anytime soon anyways.

Personally I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with tasers being required to take out spirits for mundanes. It is an extra weapon that has to be carried, it is an extra weapon that someone needs to be skilled in, it has a short range and extremely limited fire rate and wonky ammo that can't be changed out for anything else. All in all, I'd say that is a fairly decent compromise for being able to injure spirits.

As for fixing hardened armor, I've seen several suggestions for how, but my favorite remains that hardened armor soak dice are automatic hits. Should still be left at F*2 rating though, otherwise any weapon with APDS will make all but the most powerful spirits cry as they lose their armor.

Actually, by fixing the real problem - the hardened armor in ItNW - people aren't dependent on -half AP weapons to counter spirits.

The problem is that the game uses the same armor system for a variety of different types of armor. I don't think a spirit's 'natural' armor is a 1:1 analog with a 2070 kevlar vest. But because certain items exist in the game (APDS ammo, which is specifically designed to penetrate metahuman body armor and makes perfect sense), it also (by way of game mechanics) penetrates the etheral natural defenses of a magical creature.

No, you're still in jail, it is however an erase all digital copies of any evidence or reports related to your character. Also its not 'free' you did pay 10 BP for the 'good' version of it, but those are likely the 10 best BP in the game.

Why not have the immunity do something like Force+3?

And they specifically say:
You're still in jail. Just now no one knows why

But you're a SINless, so they don't really care

In that case maybe, I was more thinking across a table.

I think that is a nice solution. It does however mean that uber spirits will really need anti-tank grade weapons to effect them. No so much complaining about that, just stating a fact.