QUOTE (Johnny B. Good @ Aug 19 2010, 01:55 PM) 
You don't even wanna know what I did to my garbage truck.
Yes I do. My players tick me off from time to time.
Yes I do. My players tick me off from time to time.
QUOTE (Johnny B. Good @ Aug 20 2010, 12:16 AM)
I'm going to say this one more time before hitting the eject button I installed into my Dodge Scoot.
This will not work.
1. You can have a maximum of 8 CHA, which is a maximum of 16 spirits bound to you. No hundreds of spirit-slaves.
2. Inhabitation is a power only available to free, ally and bug spirits. You will never be able to bind more than two or three free spirits at once. As soon as you force them to inhabit a vessel (Inhabitation is PERMANENT), they will do everything in their power to either kill or maim you horribly. You will never be able to realistically summon more than two or three ally spirits, as they take large chunks of karma. You are not a bug shaman. If you choose to play a bug shaman, the other PCs will likely shoot you on sight. If you are a bug shaman, and you somehow manage to survive long enough to summon a queen, she will likely eat you once the hive is well-established.
3. Posession/Channeling mage-slaves will not realistically work. Binding and re-binding spirits on that scale will cost you hundreds and thousands of nyuen. Also mages usually know banishing, and are likely to just magically banish the spirit out of them in the event they are given control of their bodies.
This will not work.
1. You can have a maximum of 8 CHA, which is a maximum of 16 spirits bound to you. No hundreds of spirit-slaves.
2. Inhabitation is a power only available to free, ally and bug spirits. You will never be able to bind more than two or three free spirits at once. As soon as you force them to inhabit a vessel (Inhabitation is PERMANENT), they will do everything in their power to either kill or maim you horribly. You will never be able to realistically summon more than two or three ally spirits, as they take large chunks of karma. You are not a bug shaman. If you choose to play a bug shaman, the other PCs will likely shoot you on sight. If you are a bug shaman, and you somehow manage to survive long enough to summon a queen, she will likely eat you once the hive is well-established.
3. Posession/Channeling mage-slaves will not realistically work. Binding and re-binding spirits on that scale will cost you hundreds and thousands of nyuen. Also mages usually know banishing, and are likely to just magically banish the spirit out of them in the event they are given control of their bodies.
1. As in SM,
"Note that ally spirits do not count towards the initiate’s limits
on bound or unbound spirits."
so theoretically, you can have thousands of ally spirits if you want to.
2. Ally spirits inhabiting/possessing vessels are your allies. Period. They do not maim or kill you unless you did something to piss them off.
Ally spirits possessing vessels with channeling can use conjuring skills and their own karma to conjure up spirits.
3. Which is why possessed conjurers stay back in HQ while inhabited warriors stay on the front line.
double
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 19 2010, 11:51 PM)
I still think the funniest part was the idea that a magical group gives you control over people. 
We used to have a guy in my RPG group who would always triumphantly reveal the stupidest ideas, secure in the knowledge that he was being brilliant. Classic.
We used to have a guy in my RPG group who would always triumphantly reveal the stupidest ideas, secure in the knowledge that he was being brilliant. Classic.A magical group with obedience/belief/oath/service strictures along with the penalty that you will suffer death if those strictures are broken aka those triad mystic oaths found in Ghost Cartels will guarantee you full obedience.
Also, the prospect of spirits giving people regeneration, immortality and other spirit powers will also ensure obedience from your group members.
If all else fails, a cranial bomb inserted into the subject's skull will work.
Please stop feeding the troll, people. He is growing fat and smug while feasting on your indignation and 'logical arguments.'
QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 19 2010, 08:27 PM)
That would be a heck of a thing to use a service for^^
My team has code words for Toxics and Blood Mages - Green Extractions and Red Extractions. They make our rigger very very happy^^
But back to the point - even if you were right about playing Toxics (and you aren't), "since it still can't conjure or earn karma, I'm not sure why you would want one"
Or let's say you could force a possessed mage to join a group - the only penalty for breaking strictures is to lose your group link, so it would be easier just to hold a gun to their head, or better yet, cranial bomb.
We're arguing over tiny details here, but your grand plan died a while back.
My team has code words for Toxics and Blood Mages - Green Extractions and Red Extractions. They make our rigger very very happy^^
But back to the point - even if you were right about playing Toxics (and you aren't), "since it still can't conjure or earn karma, I'm not sure why you would want one"
Or let's say you could force a possessed mage to join a group - the only penalty for breaking strictures is to lose your group link, so it would be easier just to hold a gun to their head, or better yet, cranial bomb.
We're arguing over tiny details here, but your grand plan died a while back.
the penalties for breaking strictures are instant painful death.. check out the triads mystic oaths found in Ghost Cartel..
toxic spirits possessing channeled mages can conjure and earn karma as the channeling mages are still in control
My group has code words for your team. New Vessels.
Say hello to your new master.
Psh, Semerkhet, we're having fun. It's like tapping the glass at the zoo.
Actually, ally spirits will specifically turn on you if they think they're stronger, or just feel like it. None of this 'period' stuff.
You can't have thousands of allies. Obviously.
While my point was that you can't force someone to join your group, it's also true that a Bleeding Oath wouldn't hurt a spirit. They don't bleed. The penalty for breaking strictures is not death, at all. It's a minor penalty to magic use, possibly for the whole group.
In addition, it costs 5 Karma to join a group, and your spirits don't have it.
If your mages are Channeling (where'd you find all the Initiated mages?), then *they're* in at least partial control, not yours spirits.
Actually, ally spirits will specifically turn on you if they think they're stronger, or just feel like it. None of this 'period' stuff.
You can't have thousands of allies. Obviously.
While my point was that you can't force someone to join your group, it's also true that a Bleeding Oath wouldn't hurt a spirit. They don't bleed.
The penalty for breaking strictures is not death, at all. It's a minor penalty to magic use, possibly for the whole group.In addition, it costs 5 Karma to join a group, and your spirits don't have it.
If your mages are Channeling (where'd you find all the Initiated mages?), then *they're* in at least partial control, not yours spirits.
QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Aug 19 2010, 04:30 PM)
the penalties for breaking strictures are instant painful death.. check out the triads mystic oaths found in Ghost Cartel..
toxic spirits possessing channeled mages can conjure and earn karma as the channeling mages are still in control
My group has code words for your team. New Vessels.
Say hello to your new master.
toxic spirits possessing channeled mages can conjure and earn karma as the channeling mages are still in control
My group has code words for your team. New Vessels.
Say hello to your new master.
I'd offer up another batch of mutton as a bridge toll, but people far better versed in posession and inhabitation(See Yera? I got it right!) have already deconstructed this argument down to nothing.
I politely ask you make this magificent rigger mage and send it to the GM so he can approve it for its proper integration.
Gerblik, Destroyer of Couches needs his nest, after all.
QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Aug 19 2010, 04:30 PM)
the penalties for breaking strictures are instant painful death.. check out the triads mystic oaths found in Ghost Cartel..
toxic spirits possessing channeled mages can conjure and earn karma as the channeling mages are still in control
My group has code words for your team. New Vessels.
Say hello to your new master.
toxic spirits possessing channeled mages can conjure and earn karma as the channeling mages are still in control
My group has code words for your team. New Vessels.
Say hello to your new master.
I call bluff
SM Page 65
Violating Strictures
When a member violates a stricture, the gamemaster
takes note. When the member applies for initiation or participates
in ritual magic with the magical group, any such violations
may cause problems. The group’s magical link is attuned
to the astral forms of members on a fundamental level, and
the breaking of a stricture causes disturbances intuitively felt
and immediately evident to other members when performing
magic with the guilty party. The effect of breaking the stricture,
however, may not be grave enough to disrupt the group’s
magical link.
If the violating member performs ritual magic with the
group, the “bad vibes” resulting from the broken stricture echo
over the link, disrupting the flow of mana and imposing a negative
dice pool modifier to all participants in the ritual group
equal to the number of strictures broken.
Please do not confuse Fluff how ever nice it sounds with RAW the two have at best a passing accquaintence but frequently do not see eye to eye.
If in your game you house rule this in that is up to you but it is not part of the RAW
Reading through the thread, I've concluded the disconnect is this:
pattyhulez, you're clearly of the opinion that "if the rules don't explicitly say I CAN'T do this, then I CAN".
The problem is, roleplaying game rulebooks, pretty much ALL of them, aren't written that way.
They are generally written telling you what you CAN do.
If whatever it is you want to do isn't covered by the rules, then you CANNOT DO IT.
Unless your GM makes up houserules to let you do it, of course. But then we're not talking about the game anymore, we'd be talking about the GM's custom houserules.
Additionally, most rulebooks are written such that a general rule always applies unless explicitly overridden by a specific rule.
If a general rule states, "all boxes are Blue", and the only other specific rule is "boxes with the Fnord quality can be Red", it doesn't matter how much you warp, alter, or change the box, if it doesn't get the Fnord quality, it has to be Blue. Even if it DOES get the Fnord quality, it can only be Red or Blue - boxes under this game system can never be Green, because that's not covered by the rules.
-karma
pattyhulez, you're clearly of the opinion that "if the rules don't explicitly say I CAN'T do this, then I CAN".
The problem is, roleplaying game rulebooks, pretty much ALL of them, aren't written that way.
They are generally written telling you what you CAN do.
If whatever it is you want to do isn't covered by the rules, then you CANNOT DO IT.
Unless your GM makes up houserules to let you do it, of course. But then we're not talking about the game anymore, we'd be talking about the GM's custom houserules.
Additionally, most rulebooks are written such that a general rule always applies unless explicitly overridden by a specific rule.
If a general rule states, "all boxes are Blue", and the only other specific rule is "boxes with the Fnord quality can be Red", it doesn't matter how much you warp, alter, or change the box, if it doesn't get the Fnord quality, it has to be Blue. Even if it DOES get the Fnord quality, it can only be Red or Blue - boxes under this game system can never be Green, because that's not covered by the rules.
-karma
QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Aug 19 2010, 04:30 PM)
the penalties for breaking strictures are instant painful death.. check out the triads mystic oaths found in Ghost Cartel..
toxic spirits possessing channeled mages can conjure and earn karma as the channeling mages are still in control
My group has code words for your team. New Vessels.
Say hello to your new master.
toxic spirits possessing channeled mages can conjure and earn karma as the channeling mages are still in control
My group has code words for your team. New Vessels.
Say hello to your new master.
Following thoughts
1) If the mage is in control it could not be the spirit summoning thus any karma earned is the mages not the spirits.
2) Anything the mage askes the spirit to do is a service and only ally spirits will last any real length of time in this situation. Long term spirits could last for a while longer but this would also remove any further services.
3) Channeling is not a metamagic which gives you as a outside force more options against the mage to imply this is backwards logic of the lowest order. Channeling allows a mage to be possesed and ride the wave as it were and fully falls into the possession path of magic and as such is under control of the mage himself he can use it or not at his choice, even if there was a way for you to possess him with your own spirit he could simply turn off the channeling and leave the spirit with a meat suit only.
3) NO SPIRIT CAN SUMMON - this is one of the most basic parts of the magic system along the lines of 'you cannot timetravel' and 'the speed of light is not for playing with'
You may not break these rules by the use of limited word play and general silliness without mass house rulling.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 20 2010, 01:34 AM)
Psh, Semerkhet, we're having fun. It's like tapping the glass at the zoo.
Actually, ally spirits will specifically turn on you if they think they're stronger, or just feel like it. None of this 'period' stuff.
You can't have thousands of allies. Obviously.
While my point was that you can't force someone to join your group, it's also true that a Bleeding Oath wouldn't hurt a spirit. They don't bleed. The penalty for breaking strictures is not death, at all. It's a minor penalty to magic use, possibly for the whole group.
In addition, it costs 5 Karma to join a group, and your spirits don't have it.
If your mages are Channeling (where'd you find all the Initiated mages?), then *they're* in at least partial control, not yours spirits.
Actually, ally spirits will specifically turn on you if they think they're stronger, or just feel like it. None of this 'period' stuff.
You can't have thousands of allies. Obviously.
While my point was that you can't force someone to join your group, it's also true that a Bleeding Oath wouldn't hurt a spirit. They don't bleed.
The penalty for breaking strictures is not death, at all. It's a minor penalty to magic use, possibly for the whole group.In addition, it costs 5 Karma to join a group, and your spirits don't have it.
If your mages are Channeling (where'd you find all the Initiated mages?), then *they're* in at least partial control, not yours spirits.
according to SM, I can have thousands of ally spirits if I want to. Cos ally spirits do not count towards your limit for bound/unbound spirits.
Hey if you wanna use the "ally spirits turn on you" excuse to prevent this perfectly legitimate strategy from working, why not? It is your game.
When a mage is first possessed, he will most likely not possess that channel trait. Thus that spirit is in control and can thus force the mage to join the group.
Once that happens, that spirit can use drain karma to obtain that 5 karma. The Bleeding Oath is aimed more at the mage himself than at the spirit.
We already know that ally spirits have a minuscule chance of betraying you, especially when they have taken the strictures and they are suppose to be ally spirits in the first place.
However, there is no guarantee that the spirit might possess that mage all the time. Thus the Bleeding Oath will take care of the periods when that spirit might not possess the mage.
The Channel Trait will only be gained by the mage after he is fully controlled and initiated by the group.
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Aug 20 2010, 02:04 AM)
Following thoughts
1) If the mage is in control it could not be the spirit summoning thus any karma earned is the mages not the spirits.
2) Anything the mage askes the spirit to do is a service and only ally spirits will last any real length of time in this situation. Long term spirits could last for a while longer but this would also remove any further services.
3) Channeling is not a metamagic which gives you as a outside force more options against the mage to imply this is backwards logic of the lowest order. Channeling allows a mage to be possesed and ride the wave as it were and fully falls into the possession path of magic and as such is under control of the mage himself he can use it or not at his choice, even if there was a way for you to possess him with your own spirit he could simply turn off the channeling and leave the spirit with a meat suit only.
3) NO SPIRIT CAN SUMMON - this is one of the most basic parts of the magic system along the lines of 'you cannot timetravel' and 'the speed of light is not for playing with'
You may not break these rules by the use of limited word play and general silliness without mass house rulling.
1) If the mage is in control it could not be the spirit summoning thus any karma earned is the mages not the spirits.
2) Anything the mage askes the spirit to do is a service and only ally spirits will last any real length of time in this situation. Long term spirits could last for a while longer but this would also remove any further services.
3) Channeling is not a metamagic which gives you as a outside force more options against the mage to imply this is backwards logic of the lowest order. Channeling allows a mage to be possesed and ride the wave as it were and fully falls into the possession path of magic and as such is under control of the mage himself he can use it or not at his choice, even if there was a way for you to possess him with your own spirit he could simply turn off the channeling and leave the spirit with a meat suit only.
3) NO SPIRIT CAN SUMMON - this is one of the most basic parts of the magic system along the lines of 'you cannot timetravel' and 'the speed of light is not for playing with'
You may not break these rules by the use of limited word play and general silliness without mass house rulling.
1) So what? The spirit can use drain karma anytime on the mage.
2) Yes which is why I am only using ally spirits.
3) This is where the group strictures, bleeding oaths and spirit power/benefits will come into play. If the mage refuse to play ball, he will be punished.
4) No spirit can summon but a mage with channeling can summon.
I am not breaking the rules but you are.
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Aug 20 2010, 01:52 AM)
Reading through the thread, I've concluded the disconnect is this:
pattyhulez, you're clearly of the opinion that "if the rules don't explicitly say I CAN'T do this, then I CAN".
The problem is, roleplaying game rulebooks, pretty much ALL of them, aren't written that way.
They are generally written telling you what you CAN do.
If whatever it is you want to do isn't covered by the rules, then you CANNOT DO IT.
Unless your GM makes up houserules to let you do it, of course. But then we're not talking about the game anymore, we'd be talking about the GM's custom houserules.
Additionally, most rulebooks are written such that a general rule always applies unless explicitly overridden by a specific rule.
If a general rule states, "all boxes are Blue", and the only other specific rule is "boxes with the Fnord quality can be Red", it doesn't matter how much you warp, alter, or change the box, if it doesn't get the Fnord quality, it has to be Blue. Even if it DOES get the Fnord quality, it can only be Red or Blue - boxes under this game system can never be Green, because that's not covered by the rules.
-karma
pattyhulez, you're clearly of the opinion that "if the rules don't explicitly say I CAN'T do this, then I CAN".
The problem is, roleplaying game rulebooks, pretty much ALL of them, aren't written that way.
They are generally written telling you what you CAN do.
If whatever it is you want to do isn't covered by the rules, then you CANNOT DO IT.
Unless your GM makes up houserules to let you do it, of course. But then we're not talking about the game anymore, we'd be talking about the GM's custom houserules.
Additionally, most rulebooks are written such that a general rule always applies unless explicitly overridden by a specific rule.
If a general rule states, "all boxes are Blue", and the only other specific rule is "boxes with the Fnord quality can be Red", it doesn't matter how much you warp, alter, or change the box, if it doesn't get the Fnord quality, it has to be Blue. Even if it DOES get the Fnord quality, it can only be Red or Blue - boxes under this game system can never be Green, because that's not covered by the rules.
-karma
we are not talking about boxes here. don't confuse the matter.
secondly, both your rules are in conflict with each other.
thirdly, if a rule is written in such a way so that a specific action isn't explicitly disallowed, and a gamer comes up with that specific action, it is because that gamer is pretty creative and using his brains.
GMs who use the silly rule "a specific action isn't allowed because there are no rules for this specific action to be allowed" are just plain lazy who refuse to use their brains.
Let me ask you again. Since there is no rule for a possessed vessel to go to the loo, does that mean he can't go to the loo?
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Aug 20 2010, 01:51 AM)
I call bluff
SM Page 65
Violating Strictures
When a member violates a stricture, the gamemaster
takes note. When the member applies for initiation or participates
in ritual magic with the magical group, any such violations
may cause problems. The group’s magical link is attuned
to the astral forms of members on a fundamental level, and
the breaking of a stricture causes disturbances intuitively felt
and immediately evident to other members when performing
magic with the guilty party. The effect of breaking the stricture,
however, may not be grave enough to disrupt the group’s
magical link.
If the violating member performs ritual magic with the
group, the “bad vibes” resulting from the broken stricture echo
over the link, disrupting the flow of mana and imposing a negative
dice pool modifier to all participants in the ritual group
equal to the number of strictures broken.
Please do not confuse Fluff how ever nice it sounds with RAW the two have at best a passing accquaintence but frequently do not see eye to eye.
If in your game you house rule this in that is up to you but it is not part of the RAW
SM Page 65
Violating Strictures
When a member violates a stricture, the gamemaster
takes note. When the member applies for initiation or participates
in ritual magic with the magical group, any such violations
may cause problems. The group’s magical link is attuned
to the astral forms of members on a fundamental level, and
the breaking of a stricture causes disturbances intuitively felt
and immediately evident to other members when performing
magic with the guilty party. The effect of breaking the stricture,
however, may not be grave enough to disrupt the group’s
magical link.
If the violating member performs ritual magic with the
group, the “bad vibes” resulting from the broken stricture echo
over the link, disrupting the flow of mana and imposing a negative
dice pool modifier to all participants in the ritual group
equal to the number of strictures broken.
Please do not confuse Fluff how ever nice it sounds with RAW the two have at best a passing accquaintence but frequently do not see eye to eye.
If in your game you house rule this in that is up to you but it is not part of the RAW
Bleeding Oaths are found in Ghost Cartel.
If a triad can impose bleeding oaths on its members, i don't see why a magical group can't do the same thing.
Raw? As RAW as you get.
QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Aug 19 2010, 04:09 PM)
according to SM, I can have thousands of ally spirits if I want to. Cos ally spirits do not count towards your limit for bound/unbound spirits.
No, you can't. You can only have one ally spirit, at great expense. Just because there's bananas in your ears doesn't mean it still ain't true.
QUOTE
Hey if you wanna use the "ally spirits turn on you" excuse to prevent this perfectly legitimate strategy from working, why not? It is your game.
Except it isn't legitimate, and it's been proven to not be legitimate. Again, bananas.
QUOTE
When a mage is first possessed, he will most likely not possess that channel trait. Thus that spirit is in control and can thus force the mage to join the group.
Except you cannot force someone to join a magical group, it still takes karma, and it's something that the spirit does not have. Bananas!
QUOTE
Once that happens, that spirit can use drain karma to obtain that 5 karma. The Bleeding Oath is aimed more at the mage himself than at the spirit.
Assuming the spirit has that quality, hasn't run out of services, etc. etc. More bananas!
QUOTE
We already know that ally spirits have a minuscule chance of betraying you, especially when they have taken the strictures and they are suppose to be ally spirits in the first place.
But you can still hack off your ally spirit to go after you, and it knows all your weaknesses.
Submit this character already so Gerblix can have his nest. No amount of ignorance is going to let you play this character, or let this limburger smell like roses. It's not even entertaining cheese anymore.
QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Aug 19 2010, 11:19 AM)
we are not talking about boxes here. don't confuse the matter.
It's an analogy. A fictional simplified example given to better explain the point being made. I could just as easily change the word "boxes" to "ally spirits".
QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Aug 19 2010, 11:19 AM)
secondly, both your rules are in conflict with each other.
thirdly, if a rule is written in such a way so that a specific action isn't explicitly disallowed, and a gamer comes up with that specific action, it is because that gamer is pretty creative and using his brains.
GMs who use the silly rule "a specific action isn't allowed because there are no rules for this specific action to be allowed" are just plain lazy who refuse to use their brains.
Let me ask you again. Since there is no rule for a possessed vessel to go to the loo, does that mean he can't go to the loo?
thirdly, if a rule is written in such a way so that a specific action isn't explicitly disallowed, and a gamer comes up with that specific action, it is because that gamer is pretty creative and using his brains.
GMs who use the silly rule "a specific action isn't allowed because there are no rules for this specific action to be allowed" are just plain lazy who refuse to use their brains.
Let me ask you again. Since there is no rule for a possessed vessel to go to the loo, does that mean he can't go to the loo?
By the game rules, no.
But that is why you have a GM.
He can override the rules.*
The point is, all these "exceptions" you are coming up with aren't covered by the rules. Therefore if you GM even allows them they are House Rules.
So at this point we aren't even talking about the rules as written anymore. So it's pointless to ask on Dumpshock, "does this work?" because only your GM can answer that - Dumpshockers will only tell you, "It's not covered by the rules as they are written."
And how are my two statements in contradiction?
One is "if something isn't covered by the rules, it's not part of the game".
The other is "A general rule is true unless overridden with a specific exception."
One statement refers to stuff that's outside the rules. The other refers to stuff INSIDE the rules.
-karma
* - in fact, if I was your GM I'd say that a spirit possessing a body might actually get confused as to what this weird pressure is building up in the body's abdomen, and it might pee on itself because it doesn't know what it's supposed to do.
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 19 2010, 11:22 AM)
Submit this character already so Gerblix can have his nest. No amount of ignorance is going to let you play this character, or let this limburger smell like roses. It's not even entertaining cheese anymore.
I'm leaning towards the standard Dumpshock response to weird pattyhules questions to be simply "Ask your GM".
I also don't think he's a troll.
I do, however, think he's a rules cheeseweasel.
And not even in a good way.
I direct you to an earlier statement I made:
"Personally? I'm a huge powergamer too. But I take exceptional pride in making obscene rules monstrosities that have no grey areas or questionable abuse of loopholes to do what they do. I want to be able to slap the creation down and have not a single person who sees it be able to question even the smallest part."
-karma
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Aug 19 2010, 04:44 PM)
I'm leaning towards the standard Dumpshock response to weird pattyhules questions to be simply "Ask your GM".
I also don't think he's a troll.
I do, however, think he's a rules cheeseweasel.
And not even in a good way.
I direct you to an earlier statement I made:
"Personally? I'm a huge powergamer too. But I take exceptional pride in making obscene rules monstrosities that have no grey areas or questionable abuse of loopholes to do what they do. I want to be able to slap the creation down and have not a single person who sees it be able to question even the smallest part."
-karma
I also don't think he's a troll.
I do, however, think he's a rules cheeseweasel.
And not even in a good way.
I direct you to an earlier statement I made:
"Personally? I'm a huge powergamer too. But I take exceptional pride in making obscene rules monstrosities that have no grey areas or questionable abuse of loopholes to do what they do. I want to be able to slap the creation down and have not a single person who sees it be able to question even the smallest part."
-karma
Meh. This generated some decent discussion on what a spirit could and couldn't do, but after looking at the 'Deformity Negative Quality as an Advantage' thread, I'm more inclined to think the other way.
Gets my GM hackles up, it does. Reminds me of the guy who tried to submit a Highlander-era Immortal to a low-power D&D I was running back in the WebRPG formative days.
QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Aug 19 2010, 05:21 PM)
so theoretically, you can have thousands of ally spirits if you want to.
Yes you can if you somehow have tens of thousands of karma
So kinda epic starting character build
QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Aug 19 2010, 05:21 PM)
Ally spirits possessing vessels with channeling can use conjuring skills and their own karma to conjure up spirits.
No they cannot, a mage who has channeling can use conjuring skills even when possessed, spirits can never use them.
QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Aug 19 2010, 05:12 PM)
1) So what? The spirit can use drain karma anytime on the mage.
2) Yes which is why I am only using ally spirits.
3) This is where the group strictures, bleeding oaths and spirit power/benefits will come into play. If the mage refuse to play ball, he will be punished.
4) No spirit can summon but a mage with channeling can summon.
I am not breaking the rules but you are.
2) Yes which is why I am only using ally spirits.
3) This is where the group strictures, bleeding oaths and spirit power/benefits will come into play. If the mage refuse to play ball, he will be punished.
4) No spirit can summon but a mage with channeling can summon.
I am not breaking the rules but you are.
You cant force someone intoa group as a loophole to get them to then summon for you.
a magical group is a binding magical union between people with a similar outlook on the universe you cant force them to spend their karma to join your group no matter how much you puppet master them.
nice try but I still call bluff to your plan and I hope you one day find a GM who will put up with your charecters for more then the time it takes to launch the bovine missile which is what would be the case in most games no matter how pink mohawk they get
Incidentally, a possessing spirit has *physical* control of the vessel, not mental. In case that wasn't obviously the reason you can't force someone to join a magical group.
In case that wasn't obviously the reason you can't force someone to join a magical group.
So if I have this thread straight in my head, the remaining questions have yet to be explained or answered clearly enough to pattyhulez:
1. How many ally spirits can one mage have at any given time? Is there a set, hard limit, or can you have multiples, provided you can pay the ridiculous karma cost. Out of curiosity, what is the minimum karma cost for the weakest ally spirit you can create?
2. How can an ally spirit improve? I'm fairly certain that it can only improve by having its creator pay his own karma to modify it. So regardless of whether or not it could acquire karma, an ally spirit could not use it for anything. I suppose it could hang onto it in the hopes that it became a free spirit...
3. Will an Ally spirit, if given the chance, turn on its master in order to break free? This sort of thing only happened when the Magician suffered major damage, or magic loss, I think.
4. A mage with Channeling who is possessed is in control, not the possessing spirit. Can ally spirits even have possession as a power? If not, the whole possessed channeling mage thing is crushed, isn't it?
5. Can a regular summoned spirit (non-free, wild, or ally) join a magical group with its master/summoner?
6. Can a magician be joined to a magical group unwillingly or unknowingly? Seems to me that if a spirit is in control, it is the spirit that is trying to join the group, not the meat puppet.
1. How many ally spirits can one mage have at any given time? Is there a set, hard limit, or can you have multiples, provided you can pay the ridiculous karma cost. Out of curiosity, what is the minimum karma cost for the weakest ally spirit you can create?
2. How can an ally spirit improve? I'm fairly certain that it can only improve by having its creator pay his own karma to modify it. So regardless of whether or not it could acquire karma, an ally spirit could not use it for anything. I suppose it could hang onto it in the hopes that it became a free spirit...
3. Will an Ally spirit, if given the chance, turn on its master in order to break free? This sort of thing only happened when the Magician suffered major damage, or magic loss, I think.
4. A mage with Channeling who is possessed is in control, not the possessing spirit. Can ally spirits even have possession as a power? If not, the whole possessed channeling mage thing is crushed, isn't it?
5. Can a regular summoned spirit (non-free, wild, or ally) join a magical group with its master/summoner?
6. Can a magician be joined to a magical group unwillingly or unknowingly? Seems to me that if a spirit is in control, it is the spirit that is trying to join the group, not the meat puppet.
QUOTE (IcyCool @ Aug 19 2010, 08:09 PM)
So if I have this thread straight in my head, the remaining questions have yet to be explained or answered clearly enough to pattyhulez:
1. How many ally spirits can one mage have at any given time? Is there a set, hard limit, or can you have multiples, provided you can pay the ridiculous karma cost. Out of curiosity, what is the minimum karma cost for the weakest ally spirit you can create?
1. How many ally spirits can one mage have at any given time? Is there a set, hard limit, or can you have multiples, provided you can pay the ridiculous karma cost. Out of curiosity, what is the minimum karma cost for the weakest ally spirit you can create?
By all rights, one. With ridiculous karma cost. I don't recall the minimum.
QUOTE
2. How can an ally spirit improve? I'm fairly certain that it can only improve by having its creator pay his own karma to modify it. So regardless of whether or not it could acquire karma, an ally spirit could not use it for anything. I suppose it could hang onto it in the hopes that it became a free spirit...
Pretty much! It advances by a karma pact with its creator.
QUOTE
3. Will an Ally spirit, if given the chance, turn on its master in order to break free? This sort of thing only happened when the Magician suffered major damage, or magic loss, I think.
Not really, unless you're a complete asshole/show willful disregard for the spirit's existence (see former).
QUOTE
4. A mage with Channeling who is possessed is in control, not the possessing spirit. Can ally spirits even have possession as a power? If not, the whole possessed channeling mage thing is crushed, isn't it?
Don't recall for certain, but I don't think so.
QUOTE
5. Can a regular summoned spirit (non-free, wild, or ally) join a magical group with its master/summoner?
No.
QUOTE
6. Can a magician be joined to a magical group unwillingly or unknowingly? Seems to me that if a spirit is in control, it is the spirit that is trying to join the group, not the meat puppet.
No.
Geez, I figured this thread was done.
Let's have a nice detailed explanation of how you plan on making this work now since:
1. Spirits can't gain karma
2. even if they could, they still can't conjure more spirits for you
Also, is this your porn star that's doing all this?
Let's have a nice detailed explanation of how you plan on making this work now since:
1. Spirits can't gain karma
2. even if they could, they still can't conjure more spirits for you
Also, is this your porn star that's doing all this?
QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Aug 19 2010, 08:21 AM)
1. As in SM,
"Note that ally spirits do not count towards the initiate’s limits
on bound or unbound spirits."
so theoretically, you can have thousands of ally spirits if you want to.
"Note that ally spirits do not count towards the initiate’s limits
on bound or unbound spirits."
so theoretically, you can have thousands of ally spirits if you want to.
Except that each of them is going to cost you anywhere from 8+ points fo Karma to 100+ points of Karma... I assume that you have been saving up this amount of Karma since the dawn of time, yes?
QUOTE
2. Ally spirits inhabiting/possessing vessels are your allies. Period. They do not maim or kill you unless you did something to piss them off.
Ally spirits possessing vessels with channeling can use conjuring skills and their own karma to conjure up spirits.
Ally spirits possessing vessels with channeling can use conjuring skills and their own karma to conjure up spirits.
No they can't, Spirits are barred from EVER using a Conjuring Skill... EVER.... let me say that again... EVER !!!
This is a dead topic, with absolutely no chance of revival... the rules do not suport your opinion or position.
In fairness, IcyCool, all of those *were* answered multiple times.
QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 20 2010, 06:26 AM)
Geez, I figured this thread was done.
Let's have a nice detailed explanation of how you plan on making this work now since:
1. Spirits can't gain karma
2. even if they could, they still can't conjure more spirits for you
Also, is this your porn star that's doing all this?
Let's have a nice detailed explanation of how you plan on making this work now since:
1. Spirits can't gain karma
2. even if they could, they still can't conjure more spirits for you
Also, is this your porn star that's doing all this?
1) They can use the drain karma power which is even faster
2) Refer to Max's post #120 in this thread
No they cannot, a mage who has channeling can use conjuring skills even when possessed, spirits can never use them.
Which is why I changed the focus from inhabition to possession.. As possessed mages can still use conjuring skills
It is my changeling porn star who is doing this. He is not just any porn star.
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Aug 20 2010, 03:32 AM)
You cant force someone intoa group as a loophole to get them to then summon for you.
a magical group is a binding magical union between people with a similar outlook on the universe you cant force them to spend their karma to join your group no matter how much you puppet master them.
nice try but I still call bluff to your plan and I hope you one day find a GM who will put up with your charecters for more then the time it takes to launch the bovine missile which is what would be the case in most games no matter how pink mohawk they get
a magical group is a binding magical union between people with a similar outlook on the universe you cant force them to spend their karma to join your group no matter how much you puppet master them.
nice try but I still call bluff to your plan and I hope you one day find a GM who will put up with your charecters for more then the time it takes to launch the bovine missile which is what would be the case in most games no matter how pink mohawk they get
This is a gray area.
If I can't force them, I can at least bribe them.
Hidden Life- a spirit power- offers immortality to human vessels.
Spirits also offer spiritual powers to human vessels via endowment method. Lastly, a spirit can offer magic to runners with no magical power at all.
That plus strictures and bleeding oaths and possession will guarantee a runner's loyalty.
QUOTE (IcyCool @ Aug 20 2010, 06:09 AM)
So if I have this thread straight in my head, the remaining questions have yet to be explained or answered clearly enough to pattyhulez:
1. How many ally spirits can one mage have at any given time? Is there a set, hard limit, or can you have multiples, provided you can pay the ridiculous karma cost. Out of curiosity, what is the minimum karma cost for the weakest ally spirit you can create?
2. How can an ally spirit improve? I'm fairly certain that it can only improve by having its creator pay his own karma to modify it. So regardless of whether or not it could acquire karma, an ally spirit could not use it for anything. I suppose it could hang onto it in the hopes that it became a free spirit...
3. Will an Ally spirit, if given the chance, turn on its master in order to break free? This sort of thing only happened when the Magician suffered major damage, or magic loss, I think.
4. A mage with Channeling who is possessed is in control, not the possessing spirit. Can ally spirits even have possession as a power? If not, the whole possessed channeling mage thing is crushed, isn't it?
5. Can a regular summoned spirit (non-free, wild, or ally) join a magical group with its master/summoner?
6. Can a magician be joined to a magical group unwillingly or unknowingly? Seems to me that if a spirit is in control, it is the spirit that is trying to join the group, not the meat puppet.
1. How many ally spirits can one mage have at any given time? Is there a set, hard limit, or can you have multiples, provided you can pay the ridiculous karma cost. Out of curiosity, what is the minimum karma cost for the weakest ally spirit you can create?
2. How can an ally spirit improve? I'm fairly certain that it can only improve by having its creator pay his own karma to modify it. So regardless of whether or not it could acquire karma, an ally spirit could not use it for anything. I suppose it could hang onto it in the hopes that it became a free spirit...
3. Will an Ally spirit, if given the chance, turn on its master in order to break free? This sort of thing only happened when the Magician suffered major damage, or magic loss, I think.
4. A mage with Channeling who is possessed is in control, not the possessing spirit. Can ally spirits even have possession as a power? If not, the whole possessed channeling mage thing is crushed, isn't it?
5. Can a regular summoned spirit (non-free, wild, or ally) join a magical group with its master/summoner?
6. Can a magician be joined to a magical group unwillingly or unknowingly? Seems to me that if a spirit is in control, it is the spirit that is trying to join the group, not the meat puppet.
1) You can have a million ally spirits if you want to. There are no rules which say that you can't.
In order to get the karma, summon 10 ally spirits, get them to drain karma and give it to you, summon more ally spirits.
2) Any mage can improve the formulae of the ally spirit.
3) If you abuse the ally spirit yer
4) Channeled mages and ally spirits share control of the body.
5) If the spirit is possessing the mage, why not? There are no rules against this.
Bear in mind that PC free spirits can join magical groups. So if free spirits can join magical groups, why not ally spirits?
6) Gray area. Depending on your GM.
QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Aug 21 2010, 04:09 AM)
1) They can use the drain karma power which is even faster
2) Refer to Max's post #120 in this thread
No they cannot, a mage who has channeling can use conjuring skills even when possessed, spirits can never use them.
Which is why I changed the focus from inhabition to possession.. As possessed mages can still use conjuring skills
It is my changeling porn star who is doing this. He is not just any porn star.
2) Refer to Max's post #120 in this thread
No they cannot, a mage who has channeling can use conjuring skills even when possessed, spirits can never use them.
Which is why I changed the focus from inhabition to possession.. As possessed mages can still use conjuring skills
It is my changeling porn star who is doing this. He is not just any porn star.
I am very familiar with the Drain Karma power, however let me quote some Ally Spirit rules for you:
"Each [Ally Spirit] also receives one additional power per point of force, chosen from any powers available to spirits the initiate may conjure. The initiate may give the ally extra powers available to the spirits his tradition may conjure at a cost of 5 karma each." SM pg 104 - emphasis mine.
In other words, since no tradition spirit has karma drain, you can't give it to your ally. Before you bother bringing it up, Form =/= Power.
QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 21 2010, 07:34 PM)
I am very familiar with the Drain Karma power, however let me quote some Ally Spirit rules for you:
"Each [Ally Spirit] also receives one additional power per point of force, chosen from any powers available to spirits the initiate may conjure. The initiate may give the ally extra powers available to the spirits his tradition may conjure at a cost of 5 karma each." SM pg 104 - emphasis mine.
In other words, since no tradition spirit has karma drain, you can't give it to your ally. Before you bother bringing it up, Form =/= Power.
"Each [Ally Spirit] also receives one additional power per point of force, chosen from any powers available to spirits the initiate may conjure. The initiate may give the ally extra powers available to the spirits his tradition may conjure at a cost of 5 karma each." SM pg 104 - emphasis mine.
In other words, since no tradition spirit has karma drain, you can't give it to your ally. Before you bother bringing it up, Form =/= Power.
I told you I am making a toxic mage. Toxic spirits can be any re-designed version of the current spirits with *any* powers.
QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Aug 21 2010, 04:37 AM)
I told you I am making a toxic mage. Toxic spirits can be any re-designed version of the current spirits with *any* powers.
Ah, so why are you still here then? You're so far from RAW that's it's not even funny any more.
(alright, it is a little funny still)
QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Aug 21 2010, 11:37 AM)
I told you I am making a toxic mage. Toxic spirits can be any re-designed version of the current spirits with *any* powers.
Then i want into same game with you, as collecting the bounty on your head gives a nice starting boost for my character
QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Aug 21 2010, 09:37 AM)
I told you I am making a toxic mage. Toxic spirits can be any re-designed version of the current spirits with *any* powers.
Redesigning existing spirits into toxic spirits is the GM's job. Even if, for some absolutely ludicrous reason, your GM lets you play as a toxic mage, IIRC you do not get to be the one to design your tradition's spirits.
QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Aug 21 2010, 01:44 PM)
Redesigning existing spirits into toxic spirits is the GM's job. Even if, for some absolutely ludicrous reason, your GM lets you play as a toxic mage, IIRC you do not get to be the one to design your tradition's spirits.
We hear you knocking, but apparently the door is still closed...
It has become useless to try and reconcile this topic in my opinion... It has gone way beyond ludicrous...
Dude, you are completely into custom house rules territory.
Once again now:
We can only tell you what the rules cover. So far, the rules as written don't allow for what you want.
So your GM has to allow it.
Go ask him.
We are just going to tell you No.
-karma
Once again now:
We can only tell you what the rules cover. So far, the rules as written don't allow for what you want.
So your GM has to allow it.
Go ask him.
We are just going to tell you No.
-karma
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 21 2010, 09:56 PM)
We hear you knocking, but apparently the door is still closed...
It has become useless to try and reconcile this topic in my opinion... It has gone way beyond ludicrous...
It has become useless to try and reconcile this topic in my opinion... It has gone way beyond ludicrous...
Touché. It has indeed become ludicrous - but a player is supposed to be a player, not a player and a GM. There are ways to accomplish what he is trying to accomplish (set up his own quasi-empire, apparently) that do not involve blatantly ignoring the rules and one's role as a PLAYER.
QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Aug 22 2010, 08:49 AM)
Touché. It has indeed become ludicrous - but a player is supposed to be a player, not a player and a GM. There are ways to accomplish what he is trying to accomplish (set up his own quasi-empire, apparently) that do not involve blatantly ignoring the rules and one's role as a PLAYER.
Very True Indeed...
Yeah, someone doesn't exactly know the spirit rules and then they want to twist them for their own uses.
Spirit rules do not work like this, no matter how much you want to twist it. By the fluff, Toxic mages are to be killed or captured on site. No Shadowrunner is going to pass up that bounty.
Yeah, what you want to do is not possible without totally twisting the rules. Now if your GM wants to make up house rules than no sweat. But this is not possible by RAW.
Sorry.
Spirit rules do not work like this, no matter how much you want to twist it. By the fluff, Toxic mages are to be killed or captured on site. No Shadowrunner is going to pass up that bounty.
Yeah, what you want to do is not possible without totally twisting the rules. Now if your GM wants to make up house rules than no sweat. But this is not possible by RAW.
Sorry.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.