He can't have 1000 Ally Spirits. He can barely have *one*. His minions can't have their own Ally Spirits, either.

Obviously, we're also ignoring (for the sake of argument) the fact that the 'rigger mage' would be instantly vaporized by the many other vast magical powers in the world.

The fact that he cut a key (to his mind) sentence from the flesh form description is enough to convince me this is an outright troll.

3 pages though, impressive I guess.

great here comes the name calling

Psh, Mooncrow, we knew that pages ago. I, for one, am just bored enough.

If you have a reasonable, alternate explanation, I would love to hear it.

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, Yera^^



edit: how on earth did I miss that this was the "deformity" question guy too?! Now I feel silly.

What name calling, that your a troll is only logical explonation for how you can miss understand pretty much every rule coverning spirits the books have and still claim with a straight face that you have read the book multiple times.

To recap:
*PC:s cannot summon any spirits with inhibition
*You can create ally spirits with it, but that cost a big chung of karma
*Ally spirits cannot use conjuring skills
*Spirits dont earn karma like metahumans do.

PS: What are you guys talking about pages, where only litle over halfe way trought first page

Inhabitation!

It's like you were expecting it, and I have no idea why that would be.

Here's a summary.

1. You cannot summon spirits with the Inhabitation power per normal summoning rules.
2. You can summon ally spirits with the inhabitation power with the Ally Spirit metamagic, but it is not realistically possible to be able to summon an appropriate number of ally spirits with a high enough force to do what you're talking about.
3. You can summon and bind free spirits if you have their spirit forumula. Getting a spirit formula is very difficult, and if you get the spirit formula of the wrong kind of spirit, it may kill you outright. If you do manage to bind and use it, it is very likely that it will kill you outright after its' service is over, regardless of the type of spirit.

Inhabitation is a horridly powerful spirit power, and there is a reason there are no "Inhabitation" traditions (Save Bug Shamans, but that's another story).

So if you somehow manage to get even 5 spirits with the inhabitation power under your control, more power to you. But more likely than not, they'll all band together to kill you when they figure out what you're doing.

EDIT: Oop, didn't see you there, Max.

It's time to bet: what was pattyhulez' previous pseudo here? You don't come trolling ike without holding a certain amount of grudge against the board in the first place.

I bet on Loren Coleman

Well, seeing as how the Ally Spirit Rules state that the only way that they can increase their ratings/abilities is for the MAGE to spend that Karma for Him, along with teh attendant ritual and redesign of his formula, I see your attempt to circumvent that as a failure...

Just Sayin'

First of all, according to SM, it says that an ally spirit which performs a 100% flesh form inhabitation of the vessel will retain ALL of the vessel's skills, abilities and memories.

Which means that it can use the conjuring skill if the vessel has such a skill.

A flesh form spirit also gains all of the vessel's natural and augmented abilities.

Since a human vessel has the ability to gain and spend karma by itself, it is only logical to deduce that a flesh form spirit can gain and spend karma by itself too.

The part where it says an ally spirit cannot spend karma or gain karma by itself only applies when that ally spirit is not inhabiting a vessel.

Peace, I ain't trolling.. only pointing out how to make the best use of certain techniques.

If a group of mages conjure up the ally spirit together, then any single member of that group of mage will be able to spend the karma for the spirit and redesign that formula.

Nothing in the rules which say that the ally spirit must be allied to one conjurer only. We can always conjure up ally spirits which are allies to our magical group.

No it applies always, just like the part that says they cant use skills from conjuring group.
If the host had a conjuring skill then the good merged spirit has it too, but it still cant use it the inhibition doesn't change that part.

Read it again: "...retains all of the memories, abilities, and skills (both Active and Knowledge, with the exception of Conjuring skills) of the host." SM pg 100 (emphasis mine)

Seems pretty clear.

And to clear things up, this isn't a game where "everything forbidden is permissible", most games aren't in fact. If the rules don't say you can do something, then you can't. (Unless you want to house rule it, in which case, knock yourself out)

Inhabitation.

I can see someone is explicitly lying in here. The words "with the exception of Conjuring skills" clearly does not appear in my version of Street Magic where it talks about the Flesh Spirit Form.

You can always use your own house rule that says that spirit can't use conjuring skills or earn/spend karma on its own but I will stick to what the books say which is the merged spirit retains the vessel's skills and abilities, (including the conjuring skills and the self-expenditure/earning of karma)

Street Magic, Second Printing, Copyright 2006-2008, page 100.

I'm holding it in my hand looking at it.

edit: Ah, errata from First Edition:

http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/sr4/sm_errata_v141.pdf

Someone should get the newest printing of the book, or atleast read the errata before accusing others of lying.

I pulled out my First Edition so we could be on the same page, and it neglects to mention where spirits magically break core rules when flesh form. Spirits can't earn karma on their own. Period. Even PC Free Spirits are given a handwavy pact to explicitly explain how they do it. If it's not in the book, you can't do it by RAW.

Please let me point out other methods of using this tactic.

WILD SPIRITS -

For game purposes, wild spirits are handled as free spirits,
though their unique statistics, abilities, and personalities are left
to the gamemaster. Though all have a Force and various powers,
wild spirits can possess any form or any combination of powers
the gamemaster deems appropriate and balanced.

So it seems that a free spirit can obtain the in-habitation power after all.

TOXIC SPIRITS

In Shadowrun, Fourth Edition, gamemasters
are free to design their own toxic spirits as unique
entities, fleshing out their appearances, attributes,
and powers fitting the particular beliefs of the toxic
summoner. The simplest way to do this is to use
the stats of one of the ten basic spirit types as a
template and swap out attributes, abilities and
powers, replacing them for abilities with appropriate
flavor listed in this chapter. As toxic spirits
are diverse, gamemasters should not shrink from
modifying existing powers and rules when it fits
the flavor of the toxic spirit type in their games.

So if you are a toxic mage, you can twist the spirit to whatever combinations of powers which you like including the inhabitation and karma drain powers.

Yep, when GMs are specifically told "you can do this" they can... however, Wild Spirit =/= Free Spirit, and PCs can't be Toxic Shamans either, so it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Except you rules of wild spirits dont ably to free spirits.
Also you cant summon wild spirits either.


Read my post numbered 36 in this thread.
That aplyis to Toxic mages too.

No worries.. in that case.. just use spirits with possession instead of inhabit to possess mages with conjuring skills.. also those mages should have the channeling meta-trait as well.

"The channelling magician can use her own skills and has fine motor control
over her body while enjoying the enhancing benefits of the
Possession power (see p. 101)."

This means that a possessed magician can use conjuring skills and earn/spend karma on its own.

I see a two-pronged strategy then.

Possessed mages would be kept in the HQ conjuring up limitless number of spirits to inhabit other warriors or possess other mages.

While those warriors and technomancers and riggers would have their bodies inhabited as there isn't a need for them to use the conjuring skills.

Beautiful..

You can summon wild spirits if you have the wild spirit formula.

"a
wild spirit may not be subsequently summoned and controlled
unless the conjurer possesses its spirit formula (assuming it has
a spirit formula … )."

Also there is no rule which state that PCs can't become toxic mages.

Both in street magic.

They wouldn't actually earn any karma for just staying home summoning, or atleast not enought to make ally spirits(that you need if you want inhibition)

Also if the mages are on your side why do they need to be possesed and if their not, why on earth would they be summoning spirits for you and not just sommun a couple and tell them to kill you.


So you "only" need a GM created wild spirit with inhibition and its spirit formula and then you can summon that one spirit with inhibition power.

Yes they can, but I thought the point was to kidnap mages - if they have control (and they do with Channeling) it seems like it would be easier just to recruit them to your cause. Otherwise, you've just got a pissed off mage with some extra spirit power gunning for you...

edit: well, I admit you found a way to get a second inhabitation spirit. (at least until you glitch a re-bind roll) Though since it still can't conjure or earn karma, I'm not sure why you would want one.


"...the magicians, spirits and critters in this chapter are intended to provide a formidable selection of foes for any Shadowrun game." SM pg 136 referring to Toxic Shamans, Insect Shamans, Shedim, etc. It has rules for playing Twisted mages, though with a host of caveats and comments like "Though not as deranged as Toxic Magicians..." etc. It's 100% clear that Toxics aren't allowed as PCs.

which is why you have to kidnap mages before they possess that channeling talent.. kidnap those mages.. get a spirit to possess them.. force them to join your magical group with all those obedience and service strictures along with the penalty of death if the mages dare to defy you

after his soul belongs to your group, then the mage should learn the channelling talent which will allows him to conjure up spirits for u

Thats really not how the game works.
They cant join your croup while being possessed.

there are no rules which explicitly state that a PC isn't allowed to become a toxic mage..

besides what a wonderful game your players might have..

running a syndicate full of toxic blood mages and runners inhabited/possessed by toxic spirits.. lol..

oh really? point out a rule that says a possessed mage can't be forced to join a magical group

besides, a possessed mage has the ability to use karma drain in order to drain karma for his own advancement.

House rule away; but if something isn't explicitly allowed, it's not RAW. You might as well argue that PCs are allowed to be Dragons.

Maybe the part where someone possessed by someone elses possession spirit cant do anythink, the spirit can do what ever it wants, the host not so much.

But if your gonna incnore all the rules in the books anyway, why not just say that your character is an allpowerfull god and be done with the sillines.

there are no rules which allow PCs to be dragons.

there are rules however which allow PCs to be toxic mages..

all found in SM and those are hardly house rules.

No, there aren't. They're treated just like dragons, given rules for running them as NPCs. Again, there are rules for running as Twisted, but that's a different thing.

Quoting myself since you seem to have missed it in the edit.

Actually there are

You seem to miss the point.

In the SR universe, any metahuman has the possibility of becoming a toxic mage.

However, there is no possibility of a metahuman becoming a dragon ever.

in fact, if I want a toxic free spirit which has the ability to gain/spend toxic point on its own, why not? it is perfectly within the game's rules

that is not official mate..

really if u think about it, there are no rules which allow a possessed mage to go to the loo.. so does that mean he can't go to the loo?,,

your theory that a possessed mage can't join a group just because there are no rules to do so is very flaky

Yes, but the PC arent allowed to play as one of those.
Also if you were playing with me and the GM allowed you to play one for some bizard reason i would quee in joy and collect my self a nice big paysheck by truning you in for the bounty.


Yes, the possed mage cant do anythink without channeling(except give command to the spirit if it's his) the spirit is in total control of the body.

That would be a heck of a thing to use a service for^^

My team has code words for Toxics and Blood Mages - Green Extractions and Red Extractions. They make our rigger very very happy^^

But back to the point - even if you were right about playing Toxics (and you aren't), "since it still can't conjure or earn karma, I'm not sure why you would want one"

Or let's say you could force a possessed mage to join a group - the only penalty for breaking strictures is to lose your group link, so it would be easier just to hold a gun to their head, or better yet, cranial bomb.

We're arguing over tiny details here, but your grand plan died a while back.

It was never alive to begin with.

Well sure, I was just pointing out that even what he's trying to argue now doesn't get past the rules he did finally concede.

This has been fun to read and waste a few mins

I feel sorry for the poor GM who has to say no to all this and offer him the the only advice we can give. Orbital cows solve many bad PC concepts

I still think the funniest part was the idea that a magical group gives you control over people. We used to have a guy in my RPG group who would always triumphantly reveal the stupidest ideas, secure in the knowledge that he was being brilliant. Classic.

Brain: Are you thinking what I'm thinking, Pinky?
Pinky: I think so, but if they call them 'Sad Meals' then kids would never buy them!

I'm going to say this one more time before hitting the eject button I installed into my Dodge Scoot.

This will not work.

1. You can have a maximum of 8 CHA, which is a maximum of 16 spirits bound to you. No hundreds of spirit-slaves.

2. Inhabitation is a power only available to free, ally and bug spirits. You will never be able to bind more than two or three free spirits at once. As soon as you force them to inhabit a vessel (Inhabitation is PERMANENT), they will do everything in their power to either kill or maim you horribly. You will never be able to realistically summon more than two or three ally spirits, as they take large chunks of karma. You are not a bug shaman. If you choose to play a bug shaman, the other PCs will likely shoot you on sight. If you are a bug shaman, and you somehow manage to survive long enough to summon a queen, she will likely eat you once the hive is well-established.

3. Posession/Channeling mage-slaves will not realistically work. Binding and re-binding spirits on that scale will cost you hundreds and thousands of nyuen. Also mages usually know banishing, and are likely to just magically banish the spirit out of them in the event they are given control of their bodies.

Dude, you installed an ejection seat in a scooter?

That's hardcore.

You don't even wanna know what I did to my garbage truck.