Level 1 Rigger Mage

He kidnaps non-runner victims. Summon low-force spirits to inhabit the victims. Which will give you additional magic-casting characters free of charge.

The free spirits learn on their own too as they are available as player characters which will allow them to earn karma on their own.

Say you get 10 low-force spirit/non-runner victims at first. Then as these initial 10 mages grow in power by earning karma, start capturing real runner victims and forcing higher-force spirits to inhabit them.

Also start building drones and force spirits to inhabit the drones.

Pretty soon, you have an army of inhabited drones and inhabited runners under your command numbering in the hundreds.

Except you cant summon spirits with inhibition power, only ones with materialization or possession.

Possession is not the same as inhabitation. But you can make a lot of low level ally spirits, but I don't think they get karma on their own. Free spirit characters can not take the inhabitation power. Even then free spirits need a friendship pact to gain karma on their own. Possession does work almost as well as inhabitation.

You could have a spirit you have a pact with be a loyalty six contact but they would still just be a contact.

No they can't. That's pretty much the whole idea of free spirits and why they engage in pacts. Free spirits PC earn karma through a special pact: the Friendship pact. And no matter how you turn it, spirits cannot summon. How about you learnt the rules before trying to break them?

No.

Just no.

you can always use ally spirits to inhabit people, conjure up other spirits and use energy drain to leech karma

and use friendship spirits to possess people and earn karma on their own which can be channelled into ally spirits

i believes it states that it is only free spirits who can't summon, never said anything about ally spirits..

furthermore free spirit PCs earn karma by virtue of them being PCs and not because of the friendship pact

hmmm i visualize the mass-inhabitation strategy to be like this..

use ally spirits to inhabit the shadow runners with better stats/skills as inhabitation will prevent disruption and inhabitation gives better bonuses than possession.. let ally spirits use energy drain karma to drain karma from allies and enemies alike..

use normal spirits to inhabit low-level gangers and low-level runners so that they can earn karma which can then be channeled to ally spirits.. THERE ARE NO RULES WHICH STATE THAT NORMAL SPIRITS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO GAIN KARMA .. normal spirits exist besides ally and free spirits..

you know what i will just skip the free spirits directly as i am sure some GMs will use the rule that since those free spirits are not PCs, thus PC free spirit rules do not apply to them.. besides those PC free spirit rules are just irritating.. what? no inhabitation? wtf is that?

so i am pretty sure you guys are wondering.. how do i ensure the loyalty of a normal spirit?.. in my next post..

Nnno, I'm really not. Away from my books at the moment, but I thought there was an upper limit on the number of spirits one could have, as well as no spirit being allowed to gain karma through normal means.

Fortunately this kind of limburger is easy to spot and I don't have much of an issue having a shoggoth come through the summoning circle (since it's being abused so harshly) and eat this 'rigger mage' for his insolence.

We just had your whole thread about why drones are a bad idea. Sigh.

I'm telling you, he's going to jump out from under the bridge and demand livestock for his meal.

That's what I'm saying, Doc Chase. Cheers.

Damnit, now I need to get some more coffee.

And a new keyboard.

So how do i ensure the loyalty of a normal spirit? easy..

firstly summon the spirit..

then bind the spirit in a long-term manner with a specific set of services (namely two services) .. this type of binding will not count towards your charisma limit for bound spirits.

then ask the spirit to fulfill its first service which is to inhabit a runner..

second service is to ask the spirit to join your magical group.. that's right.. a magical group created by you and where you are the leader..

that magical group has the following strictures .. fulfillment of deed for the group, fraternity to help your group members whenever it is requested of you, obedience, service to the group, oath..

once all 2 services are fulfilled, then that spirit is freed.. but is it really free now?

it has joined your magical group with all those obedience and service to the group strictures so how is the spirit free to disobey you?

it has inhabited the vessel so it can't be banished or disrupted so the spirit can't leave!

damn, i guess that spirit can only stay on earth and serve as your servant afterall.. hehehhe

What is your justification for this not counting towards the limit?

Magic group rules are not binding, and that's not a valid service. Spirits can leave a possession willingly. Once again, you can't summon spirits with Inhabitation.

pattyhulez is talking about Long-Term Binding, where you pay karma for the spirit to perform a service for a year and a day. It doesn't make sense, though, because you could just make normal, summoned spirits 'join your magical group forever' if such a thing worked. It doesn't.

I think our livestock was just demanded.

this is the point though.. are ally spirits still subjected to that "no karma" rule once they inhabit a person?.. bearing in mind that they are no longer just spirits after inhabitation..

long-term binding doesn't affect the number of spirits which one could have..

also when an ally spirit inhabits a mage, it gains the skills of the mage.. skills which include conjuring.. are you saying that an inhabited mage can't use conjuring skill?

as far as we know, only ally and free spirits are not allowed to gain karma through normal means.. never said anything about other types of spirits though..

check out the rules for long-term binding in street magic

I'm having serious trouble believing that you're not trolling at this point. If you're not, you need to go back and re-read the spirit rules a few more times. Every one of your questions is clearly answered in the material.

This is vaguely entertaining, though, so I'm going along with it.

No spirits can gain karma normally, regardless of where they happen to be residing.

it is not possession.. it is inhabitation..

and i would say that strictures are very effective for commanding inhabited spirits to stay in place.. otherwise it might be punished heavily for breaking the oath..

where does it show that you can't summon spirits with Inhabitation?

I can summon an ally spirit who possess inhabitation.. it is in the rules in SM..

Because no spirit aside from one you design (ally) comes with inhabitation, either as a base power or as an optional.

Nope, you're wrong. Punished how?

It's not feasible to have ally spirits, and none that you can summon can have the Inhabitation power. It's in the book, you can find it.

you are assuming that one can only summon an ally spirit or a free spirit.. but there are no rules which state that you can't summon other types of spirits..

i read the rules over and over again, matey..

No one's assuming that. You absolutely can't summon a Free Spirit, for example. Other types of spirits are *all* that you can summon, and none of them can do what you suggest.

i find it really ridiculous to assume that ally spirits are the only spirits in the universe which possess inhabitation

if it is not written in the book, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist..

UNLESS you explicitly state the rule that inhabitation powers belong to the sole domain of ally spirits and no one else, can you point out where this rule is?

Think of the aphorism "Just because we can do a thing, does not mean we should do that thing."

What you propose is a mildly diverting thought experiment that would be, in all cases of actual play, *not fun.* I don't often accuse people of having 'wrong bad fun' but I'll make an exception for you.


Edit: "Tosses chunk of meat under the bridge."

Ally spirits are a very specifig think and cost a largish buch of karma to make.
They are also only for of spirits availebul to PC:s that can have inhibition.
Ally spirits are created in a very specifig manner, hence why where saying you cant summon inhibition spirits.

Your really need to read the spirit rules a couple of times before posting again, as you obviliously have some big missunderstanding about how the rules work.

Character can only summon the 5 spirits of his tradition and PC:s can only be of materialisation or possession tradition.

I can explicitly state that nothing else that you can summon does.

Insect Spirits also have it. You can't summon them either, and theirs is only for Living Vessels.

Spirits have the powers they're listed as having.

ok so where did it say that you can only summon free spirits or ally spirits?

if you have a tradition which embraces insect spirits, are there any reasons why you can't summon them?

Don't you need a free spirit's true name to summon it?

(and it'd be pretty ticked when you called it in, too)

so i create or join a tradition which includes spirits with inhabitation powers..

if the GM only allows spirits found in the books, it would be a very boring game indeed..

The rules also don't state that I can't just suddenly decide to go Super Saiyan 14 and start shooting nuclear missiles out of my butt.

What you propose is not covered by the rules. Period.

Therefore it falls into the area of "your gamemaster has to allow it and come up with rules to make it work".

Meaning, it would be a House Rule. House Rules can do anything.

Therefore if it pointless to debate the legality of any given House Rule.

You might talk about whether or not a House Rule is a good idea to add to a game, but if you are doing so you really should make it clear you are talking about House Rules. Otherwise people will automatically assume you are talking about the rules as they are written in the books.



-karma

The fact that insect shamans arent an allowed PC option.
Me and 99% of dumpshock would kill that character on sight if the GM had a brain fart aand let you have one.

You'd kill the GM too, don't lie.

Again, no one said that. Again, you absolutely can't summon Free Spirits as a normal option, and Ally Spirits are unreasonable in any quantity (hell, even 1). PCs can't use Insect Spirits. This is all in the book that you said you read 'over and over'.

If you want to house rule this stuff, feel free. It's not covered by the rules though.

edit: What KarmaInferno said, basically.

Possibly, the whole set of corebooks is pretty heavy now days.

What does a Ally Spirit do with that karma?
Also, Ally spirits can only gain powers from the spirits your tradition can summon.

so no inhabitation for normal Ally spirits.

Not true for form - for ally you can choose one of the three types, irrespective to tradition spirit powers.

sorry guys..

first of all ally spirits have inhabitation power so it can inhabit runners..

If the ally spirit has the Inhabitation power rather than
Materialization, the conjurer must have a previously prepared
vessel on hand (see Vessel Preparation, p. 86). Immediately after
the ally spirit is bound, it must immediately use its Inhabitation
power on the prepared vessel.

secondly, ally spirits gain access to conjuring skills if the vessel is a mage with conjuring skills and ally spirits achieve flesh form inhabitation..

Flesh Form
A spirit which attains a good merge with
its vessel becomes a near perfect flesh form.
The combined entity retains all of the memories,
abilities, and skills (both Active and
Knowledge) of the host, and its appearance
is virtually indistinguishable from that of the
original vessel.

the only problem is the gaining of karma for power advancement which an ally spirit can achieve on its own..

this is where energy gain karma comes in..

When you figure out what you're trying to say, let us know. (and you left out the "with the exception of conjuring skills" nice troll though)

Obviously, *all* Ally Spirits don't have it, or it wouldn't say "If the ally spirit has the Inhabitation power rather than
Materialization,". But anyway, that's not really the point. The point is that Ally Spirits are pretty resource-intensive to get, and certainly won't fulfill the plan stated in the original post.

So, now you're Inhabiting mages and crossing your fingers for the best Inhabitation result, just to be able to summon normal spirits?

in summary an ally spirit can inhabit vessels, conjure up other spirits but it must depend on karma drain in order to gain karma .. how hard can it be?..

Nope, they can't summon.

Even if they could, it wouldn't help. That's the hilarious part.

But yes, they can't:

one rigger mage wouldn't be able to conjure up that many thousands of spirits in a short time..

if he has like one thousand ally spirits in human mage vessels, then it would be pretty easy to conjure up another ten thousand ally spirits which are ready for inhabiting human vessels...

talk about a SYNDICATE of Inhabited shadow runners ... lol

An' I'll grind yer bones ter bake mah bread!

...Wait, no. That's giants.