When under TORTURE, you don't normally think that far ahead - you are caught in 'right now, this moment'. Of course, for most people, if they do know information, they will give it (nestled among lies), or at least give information which can lead to the information you want. The problem is telling truth from fiction. And that in turn can be greatly eased with some special, sci-fi hardware.

Well, you would find me hard pressed to ever have a tone that wasn't adversarial towards torture because it simply doesn't work, hell, its counter productive: http://www.newsweek.com/2009/09/21/the-tortured-brain.html

And as entertainment, torture porn doesn't interest me in the slightest.

But if you are finding my tone to in some way be personally directed, please don't take it that way unless you happen to be Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove or any number of the other tinpot despots this world has who get off on torturing people.



Actual job? Sorry if you thought that was the implication, it might be in some cases but it could very well be the case that it is just different jobs that end up being mutually beneficial. Are you denying that big explosions and larger than life displays of bravado and stunt work with accompanying gun fire wouldn't be a decent distraction that a Ice Cold Pro could take advantage of? What would be fairer than that, both sides of the coin get what they want. And come on, don't give me that crap about not reading the fiction, you read the BBB, correct? Its all right there:



Come on, read that. You can't seriously tell me that doesn't sound like one team is Pink Mohawk and the other is Ice Cold Pro. And that is before we even get into the setting there, so don't feed me that condescending line about fiction vs playing SR.

Where you would have me agreeing is if you are talking about Pink Mohawk and Ice Cold Pro being characters on the same team, its exceptional cases where that works out well for both play styles but it is possible the distraction/sneak can work within a team on the micro scale as well.

To me torture in Shadowrun is mostly useless. You've got drugs, spells or software that will do the job better than any torture.
It's only useful when you want to get some information without spending too much time and money, for example beating up a ganger to know where he hides his stolen BTLs.

Yeah, we have a game going where the Ice-Cold Pro (The Ninja) has to put up with the 2 Pink Mohawks in the group (The Troll Mercenary and the Mr. Lucky Racer)... Big Explosions and Media Grabbing attention does not do them justice. Fortunately, they do provide exceptional noise for the Ninja to move clandestinly within, though that is never their plan, to be sure.

I meant that you sounded really mad at someone, and I couldn't figure out who. You've explained, and now I understand.

No one's being condescending. Well, I'll amend that: *I'm* not. I simply said that I don't read the fiction. I play the game. You can project onto that insults if you want.

You've re-illustrated my point: in a world with Mohawk and Pros together, it sucks to be the Mohawks. Their job is to be the distraction and get *murdered* when the consequences arrive. That's *not* 'fairly coexisting'. That's the Ice Cold Pros playing the game, with some Pink Mohawk patsies (poor bastards). That's all I'm saying, not attacking anyone or their playstyle.

Or, as I said before, the GM can run the game so that Pink Mohawks *don't* suffer the 'realistic' consequences of their crazy actions. In that case, again, an Ice Cold Pro will have wasted all his resources on armor, antidotes, dead man's switches, etc. Because the consequences aren't (can't be) there, it's now unfair to the Pro.

I still agree with Glyph: SR4's sweet spot is somewhere in the middle, maybe a bit on the Pro side.

Bah, need to get better sleep, seeing insults where there are none. Sorry about that, I was projecting since reading that my post had a tone I was inferring a tone from yours as well. Oh well, peace be with ya IRL and punks be with ya in SR.

Other than that, you are wrong.

If you have 20 to 40 years to befriend your enemy and get him in debt to you and save his life 10 or 20 times, and marry him and give him amazing sex and children and maybe grand children.. then sure. That route to get your information is fine.

The shadowruns ___I___ Play in (( go on with my character)) don't have -------anything------- like that sort of time frame.

Do my char's instantly go to torture? no. Of course not. It's rather messy. To say it "NEVER' works. Is a lie. It works PLENTY. The times it doesn't work is when you have a counter intelligence trained person (( Or balls to the walls fanatic)) and in that case, it's not going to work no matter what you do. (( Well it'll work but you'll mess um up too bad before your done and it's not reliable))

It's NOT humane. It's NOT nice. It IS sadistic. It's NOT something you want to do.

But getting huffy and puffy and saying it never works is like saying "Violence never solved anything" I assure you. Violence stops ALOT of things. Very very effectivly. You just need to use enough of it. lol

I'm not even 'advocating' the use of torture. But don't fool yourself and act like your shadowrunners (( Who kill for money or less)) are some how above it across the board.

I think an episode of Burn Notice showed this best... torture is best used when time isn't a factor and your subject isn't a professional or a fanatic. In cases like that, it can be effective and works. The rest of the time, it's not something you want to use as it's messy and there are no garauntees.

As for Pink Mohawk... honestly I thought it had something to do with the dwarf with the red/pink mohawk on the cover of those old Warhammer Fantasy RPG books. Some inside joke I wasn't getting. Now I know better.

"And knowing is half the battle."

The other half is killing those Commie SOBs.

GEEEEEEEEEEEE EYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYE JOEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

Blind kids can help find kittens too!

I think that a part of the problem is people being unwilling to accept that both "stages" can exist in the game.

At the Pink Mohawk level of runs, going after the runners after the fact just isn't worth the corporations time or money, because the runners really don't matter. The corp that hired them will just hire another bunch next week. As long as the runners break contact and get off the grid, they're basically safe.

At the Black Trenchcoat level, the runners are going after much deeper and darker things. Not just the latest prototype or sabotaging some equipment, the run can change the face of the political landscape. At this scale of run, the runners' biggest threat becomes his employer, because he knows secrets his employer must keep under wraps.

I think a Pink Mohawk group that doesn't personally step on any toes can consistently survive, while a Black Trenchcoat runner can have much bigger ambitions, as long as they're careful.

The thing about Black Trenchcoat is, that it can get tedious, depending on the 'level of detail' that people put into it. It also lends itself to game masters that try and 'defeat' their players and players having to constantly outsmart their gm. It makes the GM/group roles confrontational sometimes.

Because just as deep as you wanna get, the other side can just go deeper. In prep for or against the run. It can get stupid complex fast.

Some people like that and some black trench coat games dont' go that deep.. but some do. You gotta remember we're playing a game. if it's too tedious or "Real life like" the fun goes right out the window.

This.

Black trenchcoat lends itself more to significant heists and hits, and, well, doesn't pink mohawk sort of scream street-level?

And, I have to place emphasis on the point about knowing secrets, especially when you factor in things like recording with cybereyes. For example, say, you don't actually still -have- some sensitive data, a visual copy of it might be sitting buried there in your eye film somewhere if you ever looked at it.
Pink mohawkers would run into this kind of stuff a lot less.

Contradiction in terms: "a Pink Mohawk group that doesn't personally step on any toes".

You're right, Pepsi Jedi. We were talking about balancing fun and realism earlier. I don't think anyone considers either Pink Mohawk *or* Ice Cold Pros to be independent goals or ideals for the game.

How about a Pink Mohawk wearing a Black Trenchcoat? Cool and collected most of the time until the "Coats come off" (I'm not linking it this time, don't worry), and the Akimbo Monofilament Chainsaws come out!

They fit under the coat, after all. That's how you *know* it's Pink Mohawk.

I like to let my PhysAd players keep their armor bonus for a while even if they have contemptuously thrown their armored longcoat aside prior to showing someone whose kung fu is best.

Sounds like a Friday night at our place, honestly.
And Saturday night. .
Sometimes Sunday, as well.


Our runs (unlike the porno run) start off full black and always, always end up full Pink with dual-wielding monowhips, jury-rigged rigged forklifts, surgery with a cougar fineblade (and a skill 6 Biotech) and a Troll mage wielding her force 6 weapon foci versus a F10 earth elemental greatform guardian...
"You...shall not...PASS!"
/pause
"For frag's sake, stop playing with it, we're trying to hack into a console here!"


It all works - you just have to adapt



-Tir

"Ok, it seems these guys were wired up with a loyalty personafix thingy. Subdermally implanted in a skillsoft jukebox"
"Ok, so..?"
Cougar Fineblade
"Allright, stuff it, we'll be over here away from the arterial spray."
"Hey, that guy had a cranial bomb! This one's different! And I'm better now!"
"You've got Biotech 6, I've just specialized in "smart enough to stay the hell away"

*nods* sounds like the perfect game to me ^^

Speak for yourself, I could read his stuff all day. It's pretty tame compared to what I write. What does that tell you about me?

That you are at least as disturbed as Canray? It's okay though, never said your (or his) stuff was bad, just worrisome...

I fully confess that I can be considered a scary person at times. I'm imaginative, fairly well-read (For my generation at least), and after some mental abuse (I have mentioned my history in Tech Support) can go to some quite dark places. Oh, and a supporter of Firearms Ownership, and even know someone who owns a Cannon to defend Canada against US Aggression. (No, I'm not joking. Yes, he's serious. He's fired it off every 4th of July at the US, loaded with paint, to let them know he has it. So far, it's worked.). Edit: Oh, and grew up in a mining town. Explosives knowledge comes through osmosis to us, where even the High School Cheerleaders know about the proper handling of dynamite and blast cord.

Flipside, I'm about as non-violent a person as can be (Raised by Hippies!), will never likely be able to personally own firearms, and is the second listed item under "Mostly Harmless".

Also, I'm far from quiet. It's the quiet ones you really have to worry about.

Pictured somewhere at the beginning of SR4A

hehe - thanks - hadn't found that before!

pg 19, SR4A

Us quiet ones play for keeps.

I consider that unfair to the pink mohawks. Now the pro doesn't need to waste his resources on armor, antidotes, dead man's switches, etc. That's more points towards stats or more other equipment.

--



Why the 4th of July? That just doesn't make sense. I would figure you would fire it off on the the day that Canada tacitly gained more independence from England while still revering the monarchy.

You know... show the US that you guys are independent too. Firing it on the 4th just seems like you're supporting our independence and wish to be part of the United States.

Is this the thread where I claim to be pink mohawk for being a former soldier, having killed a deer with a chainsaw, and owning more weaponry than I should probably admit to?


PS: The chainsaw thing was... not my fault, some idiots sent a deer running through camp, I had my chainsaw running anyway...

You know how those crazy Canadians are. Deep Down inside, they really do wish that they were part of the United States...

Wow... that is... Actually, I am not really sure what that is.

anybody would have to be crazy for wanting THAT . . *runs*

Heh...
You cannot run, nor hide, Stahlseele.... You will just die tired...

*looks at belly*
'fraid you might be right mate . . eh . .

Heh...

Like I said, the chainsaw thing was not my fault, some idiots who probably had never hunted before spooked a deer bad enough if ran through my camp site and I was still cutting wood so...turned in to it and put blade to neck... The arterial spray was stunning.

You quiet ones aren't watched as closely. Makes the action that much more surprising when it does happen.

Lots of quiet folks that just are that. Quiet.

Quiet Pink Mohawks, OTOH, are the creepiest, scariest buggers on the block!

Did that count against your hunting limit for the season? What did the officials say when they found out?

"only an american would go hunting with a chainsaw"

Heh... Use what you got I guess...

The game officials did count it against my limit, the chainsaw didn't go clean through so I had to finish the poor beast off with my colt python. The chainsaw was for constructing blinds and cutting down a tree for firewood... Funny thing is mostly I bow hunt, the python was for anything to big to be dropped by my bow and with the 8 inch barrel and the right ammo a .357 python can be a life saver.

"Quiet Pink Mohawks"?! Isn't that a oxymoron or something? How is that even possible? Even if you remove their larynx, I guarantee you a Pink Mohawk would still find a way to be loud as MOAB ... if they aren't just using one

So if you had finished it off with the chainsaw would it still have counted against your limit?

That must have been trippy as all get out, especially if you had a running chain saw, most deer, even these tame things that wander around towns wrecking people's gardens to avoid predators and generally have seen a huge population explosion, would never let themselves get within lunging/pouncing distance of humans (I know, I tried, tracking deer when you are bored teen is fun and I had no intention of harming it for sport, only wanted to see if I could get my hands on it) unless you have a well camouflaged (all senses), silent hide. And you were running a chain saw... Maybe the deer just wanted to end it all and you obliged, I hope you dressed the carcass well, used as much as you could for sustenance and utility (hide, bones, etc) and offered a prayer of thanks.

They didn't tell me, Stealth, likely fearing I would actually try to hunt with a chainsaw if it did. one of them was friends with my uncle so... I was not an unknown quantity.

Oh, further example of my pink mohawkness, we converted my friend's station wagon to a tracked vehicle and built a removable-mount potato gun on to the roof.

I'd be happy for sane firearms laws...

Actually, I'd be happy for some sane laws, period. The Import License for Airsoft is the same license for importing Weapons-Grade Nuclear Material.

Yeah... I can understand that...

Does that mean you can import weapons grade nuclear material? I can just imagine one of those FBI guys that are watching this site being startled out of his chair shouting, "Holy shit, we got one!"

yah, when instead they should be going:"holy shit, we have to block off any traffic to and from canada!"

All of it?

SHUT!
DOWN!
EVERYTHING!