Thats because the people using the bows are getting away with it.

Dun, dun, dun!
Beware the secret underground that's so accomplished that they've never been heard of.

They cost the same as standard grenades, unless SR4A changed that (I only have SR4).

I believe minigrenades are in the main book in the Gear section.

Most people don't use bows because they are harder to use than a gun. It's harder to pull back a bowstring than it is to pull a trigger and it hurts when it smacks them in the arm because they don't know to wear a bracer.

Yeah, the should be in the main book under "grenades, rockets, and missiles, but I can only find handheld grenades.

As for the bow, I've never had any trouble without bracers, but then again I don't quite draw to my ear. As for why they aren't used, we could add fire rate, range, penetrating power (arguably), and accuracy (shots fired from a barrel will be more consistent, and have less wind shear).

I agree, too: bows *should* suck.

I haven't had any problems without a bracer either, but some of my friends, umm yeah, tore up.

@Angelone Ouch.

Nope, You just soak that Grenade Damage multiple times. That is how I do it. That is how it should be done. None of this crazy adding overlapping areas to get a Grenade blast that has an area of 2 Kilometers. That is just crazy. As has been noted. Again, those who write rules for ordnance should have at least some idea on how it works.

Just bringing this back so we remember where we got the 1920 DV. can we ask the guys working on shadowrun to tweak the rules so that this actually works? It's already close enough that it doesn't really matter. Additionally, the looks on your team mates faces when they realize you did enough damage to destroy a battalion of tanks, AND used 240 grenades in 3 seconds? Priceless.

P.S. I think the resource cost for that combat turn would be about 4800 NuYen.

Just use the base damage of a single grenade compared to armor to determine stun vs physical (and by extension effect on vehicles) as you would with a burst from a firearm. Then you can fire a bazillion grenades at a tank and it will come out unscathed. Lightly armored personnel are fucked, as they should be.

And don't let your players use MRSI for multiple actions of full auto grenade bursts. The rules as written indicate that the system works for 2 projectiles (although the fluff for the MGL-18 seems to contradict this). I would also point out that MRSI works for weapon systems with Flight Time (which does not apply to grenade launchers because their range is less than 1000 meters) or weapons that fire twice in the same turn. In the second case (which does apply to grenade launchers), the damage is calculated and resisted at the time that the second projectile would hit. Thus even using the rules are written the most you could add is 2 consecutive full bursts (which is still a little ridiculous). Also note that the rules do not say you can coordinate fire (i.e. add damage) from multiple weapons.

Personally, I don't think multiple detonations should stage their damage up all that much. There is a point where adding another grenade in isn't going to make THAT much difference.

However, it certainly should make it harder to both avoid and resist that damage. Not sure how to model that, though, without requiring unwieldy amounts of dice tests.



-k

Those numbers were asuming that MRSI worked while you were on full auto.
Using only the grenade stacking rules, you would end up with 8+(4x59) = 244 damage per pass, 976 per round.
Also with the new rules from War!, you can configure a mini-grenade to detonate on contact, adding net hits to your attack to increase damage against that specific target.

About that. Can you really use a full auto long burst with each of your six hands once per initiative pass? That makes it sound like you get one complex action per weapon, rather than per IP.

If you have to ask, you're not munchkinning hard enough.

Suppressive Fire with them.

Suppressive FIre in a 360 Degree Arc around you... That would be imnpressive indeed...

Aside from you standing in the center of the blastwaves around you, if you're not lucky ^^

One more reason to be a troll! A limp wristed elf can't possably be awesome enough to stand in the middle of a ring of fire, and survive.

Heh... Too True...

True . . True . .

Longbow, stop giving your GM ideas. You guys should fear what lies behind locked doors, because now it might be this.

@ggodo Speaking of which, take a look at my most recent post on the "Building Binky" thread.

Been watching that, just know that it's far less fair to you guys if binky comes out than is hexasuppression shows up. Hex at least needs to reload.

They don't have a separate entry, just a note in the text under GRENADES, ROCKETS, AND MISSILES, that they have the same cost and effects as standard grenades.

Don't worry, we're developing countermeasures against Binky. Now I just need to build a countermeasure against those countermeasures... Can I have 10k BP?

Lol.

No.

Force 12 control thoughts.

Yeah, at this point its kind of a OKO world out there. Hopefully I get first initiative.

Actually, I just read that the natural max for any of a free spirit's is equal to their magic rating. Unfortunately, it costs karma to initiate, so that can only be done after I've used up my BP and started the game. Is there any way around this?

Karmagen, but for the sake of the rest of the party's sanity it never leaves this board.

Aw, foiled on two fronts. Isn't KarmaGen a house rule sorta thing though?

Also, it looks like running isn't a complex action. It's a free action, and imposes penalties while moving.
Sprinting is a simple action that allows me to roll my run dice on top of running.

Everything about Free Spirits is pretty much house rules, because it requires them to make any of it functional.

Functional is in the Eye of the Beholder, Yerameyahu... Free Spirits are functional using the basic rules in Runner's Companion, they are just not POWERFUL by those rules.

I recall a few people disliking the troll archer because destroying tanks with arrows is unrealistic. I finally took the opportunity to read up a bit on the magic system in shadowrun, and I believe I have a build they will like even more.

Night begins to fall, and the MET2000 assault team is growing tired. They retreat to their encampment, comforted by the knowledge that no one would dare take on the monstrosity keeping watch over them: a fully decked out Aztechnology Cuanmitztli with 36 body and 30 armor. Well, no one except a troll with a bow, too much 'ware, and access to military grade software. Then again, what are the chances of encountering one of those in the middle of the Bogota rainforest? Suddenly, a creature bursts out of the jungle and rushes the tank! The entire camp watches, speechless, as the troll adept shoves his hand through the tank's armor and rips out its control system. The troll retreats before anyone can react, too cool a guy to look at the exploding tank behind him. The commander on site kneels to the ground in tears; "Damn you trolls! Damn you all to power gaming hell!"
There's no limit on critical strike, and it costs 0.25 per level.

Ranks = Magic.

Do you mean ranks take magic? Because I can't find anything about the upper limit for ranks being equal to my magic score, even in the post-errata book.

By "no limit" I meant that you could invest all 6 power points to get 24 ranks in critical strike, and THEN you could initiate.

Nope. To quote the relevant rule, "The maximum level an adept may have in any power is equal to the adept's Magic Attribute." So you could start out with a maximum of 6 levels in critical strike if you had a Magic of 6. But there is also the smashing blow power, which doubles an adept's base DV against static barriers, so there are still canon characters who can at least punch through doors and walls.

Searching... Where is that? I could use some help.

The rule I mean. Not smashing blow.

Oh. It was just in a weird spot. Still, you could get 14 DV on unarmed with a little finagling.

Actually, this rule is arguably limited to mystic adepts. It may seem like a stretch (okay, it IS a stretch, but I'm almost finished writing this now, so I might as well post), but that entire paragraph builds on a distinction between normal adepts, and adepts that use spells.
Adepts:
"Characters who take the Adept quality during character creation get a number of Power Points equal to their Magic attribute. Additional Power Points can be gained by increasing the character’s Magic attribute through the expenditure of Karma (1 Power point per Magic point)." And that's all that is said about PP in that section.
Mystic Adepts:
"Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character one point to use with Magic-based skills. For all other purposes, including the determination of the maximum level for adept powers, the character’s full Magic attribute is used. Such a character will not have as many adept powers as most other adepts, nor will they be able to cast spells with the same skill as true magicians. Mystic adepts may use their adept powers normally."

Ugh, I feel like I butchered that section, but they really should be clearer. Thanks for the Smashing tip though!

Turn and turn about. I should read the rules more completely before posting: I found it.
"The maximum level an adept may have in any power is equal to the adept’s Magic attribute."
Still, that means my above post was right (oddly enough).

Was that a quintuple post? I'm glad you're here, longbowrocks. The forum was getting boring.

Thank you.

I mean, you seriously are hitting the greatest hits (golden oldies?) of unclear/abusable rules questions, but that's okay. If you build an unarmed adept to break tanks, that's just cool. Unarmed has serious drawbacks and *style*.

Yeah, I thought of playing a troll tank with no weapons skill. His offense would be to shove the butt of a 0 RC minigun into someone's stomach and fire a full burst. Then I realized that the rules for taking stun damage from wielding heavy weapons were just optional material from Arsenal. Optional material that DID NOT work the way I thought it did.
Anyway, I've noticed a few of these ideas have come up before.

• Dual wielding TrollBow.
• MRSI TrollBow.
• Use sniper rifles instead of assault cannons because the snipers are so much less prohibitive for the same/even more perks.
• Binky, of course.
• Troll tank, which I haven't posted yet, because I've finally realized that almost everyone here has seen these things many times before.

But unarmed tank killer? I thought that one was new.

Well, IIRC, you only take that stun damage if you don't brace guns that should be, or if you're not a big strong troll.

Nah, that's your basic unarmed adept. Next stop for you, btw, is Throwing Mastery master. You'll skip the 'pornomancer', tour the Command-Rigger-Technomancer exhibit, and then cleanse your palate with the multicast/DP-mod-abuse mage (also known as… 'any SR4 mage'). Thus prepared, you'll be ready for rigger-adept-pixie-in-a-motorcycle-mecha. Ugh. Er, I mean… Enjoy.

You're on your way to making Bear Who Walks Through Walls.
I don't recall how high his damage vs. barriers was, but it was high enough that (even with the melee attack = complex action RAW rule that some people don't like) he could dig through reinforced concrete as fast as a human's walking speed (assuming a 1m x 1m hole).

Troll Bearshifter Adept with Smashing Blow and Critical Strike and tons and tons of strength.

1) I cracked up reading this. Seriously, IMMD.

2) That was pretty much the plan: I wasn't interested in a pornomancer, since he had zero potential in proper fights; I already made a street samurai who uses guns; I've never seen anything like the technomancer, so I wanted to do that next unless a hacker would do the job better; mages would be my last resort since I was never a fan of the whole big showy fire blast deal; after all that, I might know where the advantages were in "rigger-adept-pixie-in-a-motorcycle-mecha".

3) I saw that you could ready a large number of throwing weapons per round, but damage wise, and actually throwing them, they seemed to be a waste of time. Did I miss something?