This sounds worth it. But only for a one shot or something.

Yeah, I looked through this, but I can only get up to 34 DV vs structures. I need about 1,500 DV to do what you are suggesting.
structure rating = boxes to destroy 1 square meter chunk about 10 cm thick
-> reinforced concrete rating = 15
-> human walking rate = 10 m
-> 10m/10cm = 100
-> 100 * 15 = 1,500.

Indeed you did, since thrown weapons are a simple action. My Throwing Master starts around 10-11P in damage and just gets better.

And now for the kicker: use grenades as throwing weapons. do damage from the thrown projectile, then it goes boom.
grenades make EVERYTHING better!

I won't repeat it here, but don't forget to to apply everything *else* to that grenade, including anchored spells (money is no object!).

Only for the Corps.

Drone body, no recoil. Problem solved.

Why stop at grenades?





-k

can not watch, am in germany, sony is a dick.

I don't have the book on me right now, but IIRC, it takes a simple action to "throw a weapon". Is throwing all of them for one action a house rule?

I see a lot about anchoring spells. Doesn't that cost karma?

Sony in Germany = Chinese "government" in China?
What are they doing?

Or MGM if it's not Sony.
This Video contains content of "insert dick here" and is not watchable from your country

Ah.

Well....you did the calculations for one initiative pass....
And Bear was getting 42s pretty regularly, and it might have only been normal concrete.
I'll see if I can find Bobson's post on it.

Thanks, that would be awesome.

Turns out he hasn't posted it on dumpshock. Requested it from him directly, although he is offline and at work.

No problem. Thanks for asking for it.

[07:47:37 PM] Bobson: You can calculate it: I had 12 strength, 6 ranks in unarmed combat with a specialization in claws,
[07:48:47 PM] Bobson: Martial arts to give me +1 DV unarmed and +1 to called shots, the full offense maneuver, and +6 to DV from adept powers, double damage against barriers, and -2 AP.
[07:49:07 PM] Bobson: Also gloves that were a 4-strength weapon focus.
[07:49:12 PM] Bobson: Calculate away.
[07:50:35 PM] Bobson: House rule was that the gloves would also work in bear form.

While this has been shot down, I decided to take this idea to its natural conclusion. Unless I am grossly misinterpreting the elemental damage rules, or things that look like they stack actually don't, I have an adept who can take down the Cuanmitzil with a single kick. (btw what sourcebook does that come out of? I can't find any vehicle with over 20 armor)


Night begins to fall, and the MET2000 assault team is growing tired. They retreat to their encampment, comforted by the knowledge that no one would dare take on the monstrosity keeping watch over them: a fully decked out Aztechnology Cuanmitztli with 36 body and 30 armor. Well, no one except a troll with a bow, too much 'ware, and access to military grade software. Then again, what are the chances of encountering one of those in the middle of the Bogota rainforest? Suddenly, a creature bursts out of the jungle and rushes the tank! The entire camp watches, speechless, as the flaming troll taps the tank once to line up his strike, then unleashes a blinding kick ripping straight through the armor, and continue to watch in horror as the tank bursts into flames, and they all begin to cook inside. The commander on site kneels to the ground in tears; "Damn you trolls! Damn you all to power gaming hell!"


Punchy McEpic, Tankslaying Troll:
Base 10(12) str, 5 (6) Agi, 6 Magic

Qualities:
Adept [5]
Class 1 Surge (+10/-5) [5]
-Bone Spikes (+5)
-Elongated Limbs (+5)
-Critter Spook (-5)
Restricted Gear (Heavy Military Grade Armor) [5]
Martial Arts 4 [20]

In Debt (30,000) [-30]
Addiction (Mild) [-5]


Martial Arts:
Boxing: +2 DV Unarmed
Kickboxing: +2 DV unarmed

Maneuvers:
Full Offense
Set-Up
Finishing Move
Kick Attack
(4 others don't matter)

Bioware:
Muscle Toner 1 (Alpha)
Muscle Augmentation 2 (Alpha)
Reflex Recorder (Unarmed Combat) (Alpha)
Bone Lacing (Aluminum) (Beta)

Total Essence Cost: .7 bio, .56 Cyber, .98 total. 5.02 essence/magic remaining

Adept Powers:
-Critical Strike 5 (1.25)
-Penetrating Strike 3 (.75)
-Killing Hands (.5)
-Elemental Strike (Fire) (.5)
-Improved Combat Ability (Unarmed Strike) 3 (1.5)
Extra .5 to be put wherever.

Skills:
Unarmed Combat 6 (Martial Arts Specialization)

Gear:
Heavy Military Grade Armor, Modded with Strength Upgrade 3
Force 2 Weapon Focus Gloves


This is all doable within 400 bp, with some to spare to increase other stats and get a few other skills.


Before combat, Troll shoots up with Kamikaze, and uses a simple action to activate his flaming fist of doom. +1 Body, +1 Agi, +2 Str, +1 Will +1 Initiative Pass.

Troll has effectively 7 Agility, and 10+2(augmentation)+2(kamikaze)+3(armor) = 17 strength.


Unarmed Strike base DV: 9 (str/2) + 2 (bone lacing) + 2 (kick boxing) + 2 (boxing) + 5 (critical strike) + 2 (bone spike surge) = 22 base DV.

He is attacking the tank with Fire Fists, using the maneuvers: Set Up, Full Offense, Kick Attack, and Finishing Move.

He has 3 Reach (1 troll, 1 elongated limbs, 1 kick attack).

So he rolls: 6 (skill) + 7 (agility) + 1 (reflex recorder) +2 (specialization) + 3 (adept power) +3 (reach) + 2 (all out attack) + 2 Weapon Focus = 26 dice average 8 hits (trunctuated rather than rounded up here) on his set up.



He then transitions into finishing move, adding the 8 hits from setup to the finishing move. This finishing move is a called shot, sacrificing 4 dice for +4 DV. Now rolling 30 dice, he gets an average 10 successes, for a DV of 36.

Tank has 36 body and 30 armor. Since the attack is an fire elemental attack, it is resisted with half impact armor. Tank's effeective armor against the attack: 30/2 - 3 = 12.

Tank rolls 48 dice to resist, resists on average 16, leaving 20 damage unmitigated.

Tank then rolls twice it's armor against the fire to avoid catching on fire. 60 dice vs DV 36, 20 successes, failure. Tank catches on fire for 16 base fire damage. That 16 damage adds with the 20 damage from the initial hit, causing 36 total damage. Tank has (36/2 + = 26 boxes of health, and is now scrap.


Note: If you want to argue the tank has fire resistance (which would take us just outside of one hit kill range), with that extra .5 power points, pick up Acid Fist instead, does the same damage, but rather than doing the secondary attack instantly for a little less damage every extra turn it does the full 36 DV again, for a full 36 turns, or until they can wash off the entire tank, which is going to take more than the 3 seconds they have for it to be eaten through completely, because the second round's hit has enough damage to kill it.

And with 10 boxes of overkill damage, we could honestly take out the aggressive assault/set-up/finishing move, and be able to do this every turn without the no defending penalty.

so that's... an average of 44 DV?
STR = 12+4 = 16
unarmed DV = (16/2)+2(claws)+1(martial art)+6(adept) = 17
average roll = 6?(AGI)+6(unarmed)+2(specialization) = 14 = 5(average)
44 DV vs 15(structure) - 2(AP) = 44 vs 13 = 30 centimeters per attack. Much better than I had. The most effective approach would be to somehow reduce the rating further. Armor debonder?

Most tanks aren't made from Bondo. Also, WAR! seems to be full of crazy stuff.

Oh. Huh. Well, it was a clip of Liberty Prime from Fallout 3 hucking nuclear bombs like they were footballs. The American kind, not the round type.

Does this link work?



-k

I don't get it, what does Bondo have to do with anything?

And I take it that means the tank is in 'WAR!'? I really should get my hands on that :/

Wow Seerow. That is proper power gaming in all its glory.

I'm just waiting for someone to tell me some of those modifiers don't stack, or elemental strike doesn't work that way.


I'm pretty sure I played it by the book (nothing in the book says any of the modifiers I picked up don't stack, even the dual martial arts talents explicitly stack, which surprised me), but I don't read the errata/faq, which could ruin it. Also I'm not 100% positive on the elemental effects, because it seems like elemental strike is -really- powerful for a .5 cost (especially compared to say distant strike which is a full 1 point for a far worse if flavorful effect). I was tempted to pick up the "walk through walls" power, but that one was also a full point, way too cost inefficient, but would lead to an average 72 DV vs walls. Maybe after initiating once or twice it'd be worth it.

I haven't had a chance to look this up yet. It looks awesome though.

Martial arts can only get you up to +3 DV (an errata). You can't have betaware at character creation. The interpretation of elemental strike is a liberal one, but one that a lot of the people here espouse. Most GMs would question how the bone spikes would work in conjunction with weapon foci gloves or military armor, though. Combining two maneuvers is not specifically disallowed, but re-read the description of set-up. How exactly is this troll maneuvering his opponent here?

-The bone spikes can be explicitly be used with armor, as long as you get it custom made. I assumed that custom made was assumed of any gear at char gen, like racial mods, but the char has the bp to spare to afford it.
-The weapon focus I considered sketchy from the start, and only included it when I saw someone else mention weapon focus gloves. It's really only +2 dice.
-I was honestly more curious about the kick working with the weapon focus. But again, that's just +1 die.
-Combining two maneuvers is actually encouraged. If you read set-up it specifies it's usually combined with finishing move. As to how the troll maneuvers his opponent there, he's got 17 strength, I'm sure he can think of something. In my flavor writeup, rather than maneuvering it, it was more of a lining up his strike



So let's see, take out weapon focus, 1 DV from martial arts, 1 die from reach, and 2 dice from weapon foci, this gives us 21 base DV and 23 dice.

Really, since I rounded down for my original damage calculation, if there's a 5 point quality (since I'd drop Martial Arts from 4 to 3) that gives me just 1 extra die, I can still have the on average 8 hits, and in the end only lose 1 DV and the ability to explode spirits as effectively as tanks.

If you don't count adept towards your quality limit you can grab aptitude for the extra die.


edit: actually, can you take adept power increase up to +4 if you have specialized skill? If so that gets the extra die pretty easily, just give up the flexibility of a second elemental strike.

Yeah, setup works in conjunction with finishing move, but they are separate actions. I am talking about using full offense and kick at the same time as the other two maneuvers. But like I said, it isn't explicitly disallowed.

Yeah, you're right. I pondered how a glove weapon focus would combine with the bone spikes, and didn't even think about how it would combine with a kick. Easy enough to change it to a boot focus instead, though.

And sorry, but even with a 17 Strength, this troll won't be maneuvering a tank around.

Even with aptitude, you can still only have 3 points of improved ability, and magical qualities do count towards the cap (also, I missed it before, but a reflex recorder also counts towards the modified skill limit - you can only have two points in improved ability).

But you could raise your SURGE to level two and spend the extra positive quality points to get biocompatibility for either cyberware or bioware. And since losing a point of improved ability would leave you with a full point of Magic to spend, you could get smashing blow, although since it works on static barriers, it would have to be a parked tank. Nothing says it can't be combined with elemental strike, though.

Awww. I think I know the answer, but if you were my GM, would you let me have 30 dice when using a sniper rifle?

-On the combining maneuvers:


I read that as saying you can combine as many maneuvers as you want in one action phase unless the maneuver explicitly disallows it. In some cases this would be rather useless (say combining evasion with all out attack. Sure you get +2 to all defenses, but you unfortunately don't get any defenses), but for most cases it works fine. An all out attack kick is pretty easy to envision, as is one as a finishing blow.

-As to book focii, yeah we could do that, and that adds 2 dice back in, getting us back to just 1 DV shy of where it was before, still easily in tank killing range. Can afford to lose up to 10, this costs 2. Honestly even giving it fire resistance 10, which is as high as it goes unless there's something in WAR!, will reduce by 6 more, still leaving 2 damage to spare. This of course hinges on the foci and the spikes working together, could say there's some spikes on your feet as well (it does say they're all over), the boots are custom made with holes where the spikes are, you still kick with the boots, but the spikes are available to add some extra damage.

-I still think you're being really nitpicky with the flavor text on set-up here. If the tank is rushing along at full speed I could see the point of arguing it wouldn't work, but we're looking at a tank going at sedate speeds, or not moving at all, which is easy to imagine having a quick set-up, even if you can't physically move it. (That said I am curious what the physical lifting/moving capacity IS for a troll with 17 strength, hydraulics in the suit...). If you'd prefer, this could be done as a normal attack with finishing move, then it's just two kicks instead of one. I thought it was way more impressive to get it in a single kick.


-Bio/Cybercompatability wouldn't really do a lot of good here. The cost is already at only 1 essence, those traits only take off 10% of the cost, not the full thing. To get another point of magic, I'd have to be magic free. Also to clarify I only had 3 points of improved ability, I was wondering if upgrading to 4 was an option to get that extra die back.

-That reminds me, I didn't address the earlier comment of no betaware at char gen. I wasn't aware of that, and thought it was based on availability and cost. That betaware costs a pretty big chunk of change. The cyber compatibility would make up the difference here, and could go that route if needed. But it wouldn't gain any extra magic points to play with like you were implying.


edit: Wait I just saw what you meant with the reflex recorder. So take the improved combat ability down to 3, and instead of an extra elemental attack, pick up the walk through walls power.

So I dropped another die there, but picked 2 more back up via the weapon focus coming back in, so I'm at 24 dice/8 successes, right where I want to be.


the die pool is currently:
7 (agility) + 6 (skill) + 2 (martial arts spec) + 1 (reflex recorder) + 2 (increase combat skill) + 2 (weapon focus) + 2 (reach) +2 (all out attack) = 24


This gives us 8 successes on the initial attack, giving us 32 dice, sacrificing 4 to bring DV up to 26 leaves us with 28 dice, or 9 successes, giving us a DV of 35. Tank mans 16 damage bringing it down to 19. Fire damage goes from 35 down to 15. Total damage: 34, tank dies.




Alternative: Attack->Finisher, instead of using setup.

Same deal, but with only 24 dice, goes down to 20 with called shot. 20 dice gets us 6 successes, giving a DV of 32. This gets manned by the armor, and the tank takes 16 damage, then takes 12 fire damage. Holy crap the tank goes down even without the second hit.

If the tank is fire resistant, then the second hit should be enough to kill it with some to spare.

Betaware is what I said is disallowed at char-gen, not bioware. Biocompatibility would let you keep your 'ware within that 1 Essence threshold.

Did I say bioware in my post? Meh. Either way I had thought beta or even delta -was- available, as long as you had the money for it. That stuff gets pricey fast.

But in my edit I went with your advice, dropped a point of martial arts, picked up surge 2 and biocompatability (cyber), which with alpha lacing got me -exactly- 5 essence. Took off the extra rank of improved combat skill and replaced it with Smashing Blow, so he can literally hit walls for 60 damage.

Also redid all the math with the new by the book numbers.

Okay stepping this up to a new level of silly.

We're no longer a troll. We are now a Sasobonsam Cyclops. Base str 15, everything else the same. The stat boosts are actually so high bp almost breaks even on this upgrade.

The upside: 4 more points of strength for even more siliness
The downside: Apparently being infected caps magic at 5 instead of 6. So we re-lose the barrier
Upside: If we progress the character a little bit further, his potential is even sillier. While we only have 18(21) str, his cap is actually 21(24) even without any genetic optimization siliness.

Actually... do multiple drugs stack? If so we can shoot up with some more drugs than just kamikaze to take advantage of this higher cap. [edit: Or I guess I could just switch to K10 even if they don't stack, getting us up to the cap 21 (24) str]


Anyway, str is up to 24 from 17, raising base DV by 3 more. Everything else stays the same. So with no set-up, but doing an all-out kick, we're looking at a DV of 35, or damage actually done of 19+15 fire damage, or 34 damage, against a tank with 26 boxes of health.



note: This is a case of me just pulling stuff off the character builder spreadsheet. The infected/cyclops thing may have something that prevents it from working with surge that I'm unaware of, at this point I'm just throwing stuff out to make this unarmed damage even sillier.

Bobson would like to remind everyone that Bear Who Walks Through Walls also had very good armor values and could have pushed his damage a few points if he'd exchanged some survivability.

14 dice (before armor). 6/4 lined coat. Regeneration.

He also had 3 IPs. So ~90 cm of rubble every 3 seconds.

Just shy of 1 mile per hour, not too bad. Not quite walking speed, but an impressive speed to be burrowing through reinforced material regardless.

Bobson would like to remind everyone that Bear Who Walks Through Walls also had very good armor values and could have pushed his damage a few points if he'd exchanged some survivability.

Due to 44 / 13 being slightly more than 3, Bear actually gets a full 1x1x1 m cube in 3 seconds (101 cm on average). So 0.75 mph.

So yes, not walking speed, but a fair clip.

*nods*
the highly demanded street level characters . .
with these characters, everything else becomes level with the street pretty fast ^^

What are you talking about? Throw a Shuriken (Simple Action) and Deal Damage starting at 10p.
Throw all of what?

You can make 2 Simple actions a turn (throw 2 Shuriken, grenades, knives, whatever). More if you split dice pools to throw multiple weapons in a simple action.

Please clarify your question, as I am not sure where you are going with it...

I think he's asking, where does it say you *can* "split dice pools to throw multiple weapons in a simple action"?

What is this elusive "Walk Through Walls" power you keep alluding to. No such power.

True, but if you can KICK two tgarget with a Split pool, and you can SHOOT two target with a split pool, why would you NOT be able to THROW two objects with a Split Pool? Simple Logic there. I will admit that it is a table call, however.

It sure is. Sneaky of you to imply that it's not. Haha.

It's not really walk through walls, but Smashing Blow doubles base DV against barriers and structures, which is what we're referring to.

Gotcha...

Because it is explicitly stated that you can split your pool to shoot two targets with pistol sized... Oh, thanks for saying that. I had two rules mixed up in my head. I can see throwing two weapons with one action now. The issue is though, the with 12 AGI the game will allow you to ready up to 6 shuriken. How can you throw all those with a simple action?
Also, if someone says "six arms", then let's just say the character has 14 AGI (7 ready shuriken)

It is a step that you will not have to perform later (Prepare Weapons)... So what if you can't divest yourself of all of them immediately.

Ready 6 Shuriken/Knives. Throw 2/3 with First Simple Action, Throw 2/3 with 2nd Simple Action. At that point, you have thrown withe 4 or 6 Thrown Weapons in One Pass.

Where is the Problem?

Because you might as well just shoot a gun then.

First pass:
Ready 6 Shuriken/Knives with first Simple Action. Throw 2/3 with 2nd Simple Action. At that point, you have thrown withe 2 or 3 Thrown Weapons in One Pass.
Second pass:
Throw 2/3 with First Simple Action, Throw 2/3 with 2nd Simple Action. At that point, you have thrown withe 6 or 9 Thrown Weapons in Two Passes.

For a gun:
Don't ready. No need to ready. Shoot twice with first simple action, shoot twice with second. At that point, it's 4 shots in one pass.
Second pass:
Shoot twice with first simple action, shoot twice with second. At that point, it's 8 shots in two passes.

Add AP or DV or incendiary or toxins or whatever floats your boat and sinks the other guy's.
(pic of Bill O'Reilly)
You can't explain that.

Imaginary Bill O'Reilly demotivator aside, I prefer to use one weapon and not split my dice.

On the other hand, if you can throw once per hand per simple action, I guess that isn't as bad as it sounded. It just doesn't scream "Death from above" to me.

Sure, except that my Ninja Throwing Adept does more damage with Shuriken than a gun has any hope of putting out, unless it is an Assault Cannon or Barrett (or a Fully Automatic Weapon with Full Long Bursts).

Did you miss that I was also throwing 4-6 Shuriken per Pass if I so desired? Generally do not have to do that more than once per ready action for my targets to be down.

And they are totally silent...

And I can use ANY thing I can pick up as a Weapon for throwing purposes (yes, even the paper clip), even in situations that you will never have access to a gun...

It is a niche build to be sure, but it is definitely viable.

And for a single weapon with no splits, The NJTA will generally do more damage than the Gun Bunny...2 Shots = 2 Simple Actions = 2 Throws.

Untill they hit.

Yep, Until they Hit...