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ravensmuse
I ran my players through parts of Chicago on Saturday and yeah, almost killed one of 'em.

Brief interlude: Feral Cities - specifically Chicago, though I will not speak ill of the rest of the book - is amazing. It is chock full of little tidbits that really add nothing more than pure flavor to the setting, enabling me to come up with all sorts of plots, locations, NPCs, the like. It is exactly what a location book should be - detailed, character oriented, with lots of plothooks that are spelled out but with lots of inconsistencies you can use to tailor interesting rumors to your needs. Just an all around awesome book.

Denver needs a good update like this. I know it'll be focused on some with the upcoming Spy Games line and all of that but frankly - and if you know me - that's not really on my radar. I'm thinking I'm going to have to do it, and it makes me sad. *sigh* I have the quick writeup Bishop and the Missions crew wrote up a few years back, and all of the Denver missions themselves, but...Denver could really use a nice slick writeup like Chicago. Oh well.

Anyway, my group is based out of Denver, working for the Big White Wyrm (whom they initiated a relationship with themselves), and they've been doing some...recruitment for him. This trip to Chicago is not only to add to the dragon's burgeoning roster of top tier spiritual researchers, but also their ticket into the big times with him.

They were sent out to find a research facility within the CZ called the Butterfly House and extract one of the researchers to bring home. Though my players were hesitant, the offer of writing their own check for payment and getting well within the dragon's good graces sweetened the pot. Though initially the most hesitant, my wife (who play the most trigger happy troll I think I've ever seen played), the idea of pretty much getting to do whatever she'd like in town was too tempting to pass up as well.

(Fun side story: we think our new neighbors downstairs brought roaches with them. I wrote this all up about two weeks ago, right before we discovered our lone roach. My wife, who's been going crazy trying to keep this place clean, was not amused when I brought up what lurks within the CZ.)

Anyway. So the group goes to Chicago, does some legwork, and ends up figuring out the location of the Butterfly House, which they then head out to. They get themselves in and they find themselves their researcher, but said researcher doesn't want to leave. See, they do all sorts of bug research here, and they just discovered this nymph...

While the players are trying to convince her what a bad idea it is to be playing around with bugs like that, the building rumbles as buggies show up to do what buggies do best (set to Hostile Abduction, a great little remix from the great Super Metroid remix album; seriously, go listen to that playlist). The players panic and run for their guns (having been relieved of them previously) when the buggies and them lock segmented eyes on each other. Awesome.

There's a little bit of a firefight, and my wife is tossing grenades left right and center. There's one big ol' true form and a bunch of humies that they can't see thanks to smoke from the explosions. As they're continuing on, a grenade lands in-between one of the character's legs...and he crit glitches. Thank you, GM'ing gods. I had been looking for a way to wrap up the night, and they just handed it to me on a silver platter.

With an obvious grin on my face I say, "the grenade goes off, and the structure goes down, down, down." The looks on the player's faces were priceless.

When next they roused - my wife and another player - they had dug themselves out of the wreckage of the building and found themselves minus one researcher. When they found the character that had glitched, they found her critically injured, with ruined legs. Now they have two problems: fixing the character, and finding the researcher.

The player isn't upset - "I get to be a real street sammy now!" was what he said when he realized that he could get a pair of cyber-legs - and they know that they can get the character medical aid as soon as they leave the CZ. However, doing so puts the researcher at risk, and thus the job at risk, as the White Wyrm pretty much spelled out that they can kiss the reward goodbye if she's killed...or worse.

So the current plan is to send the hurt character off with some people making for the Corridor while they go off looking for the researcher. The player of the broken character will make a new character (one of the folks that actually brought them into the CZ) and go along with them.

And later that night, I left on his Facebook, "Well, you're the one that wanted to play with grenades..."
Machiavelli
Now they learned two good lessons:

1) donīt f**ck with the GM
2) donīt go to a place where bugs lurk.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 11 2011, 06:48 AM) *
Now they learned two good lessons:

1) donīt f**ck with the GM
2) donīt go to a place where bugs lurk.

Three good lessons.

3) Never deal with a dragon.
Tiralee
Out of interest, where was the Adept with the double-figure weapon focus? And the Troll with the vibro-polearm and laser/assault cannon?

-You'll never leave Chicago without them:)

-Tir

ggodo
QUOTE (Tiralee @ Apr 11 2011, 06:27 AM) *
Out of interest, where was the Adept with the double-figure weapon focus? And the Troll with the vibro-polearm and laser/assault cannon?

-You'll never leave Chicago without them:)

-Tir

When I was first learning the system I made a starting adept with a force 10 weapon focus. I later saw the limitation on starting availability. Oops.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (ggodo @ Apr 11 2011, 09:03 AM) *
When I was first learning the system I made a starting adept with a force 10 weapon focus. I later saw the limitation on starting availability. Oops.

You are a bad man. Maybe we should add that to this thread: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=27766

I might have been clued in when I noticed that my weapon trinket was more difficult to attain than a satellite nuke. eek.gif (just by a hair though)
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Tiralee @ Apr 11 2011, 05:27 AM) *
Out of interest, where was the Adept with the double-figure weapon focus? And the Troll with the vibro-polearm and laser/assault cannon?

-You'll never leave Chicago without them:)

-Tir

What? These sound like characters that did a bit of finagling post-creation.
ggodo
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Apr 11 2011, 10:17 AM) *
You are a bad man. Maybe we should add that to this thread: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=27766

I might have been clued in when I noticed that my weapon trinket was more difficult to attain than a satellite nuke. eek.gif (just by a hair though)

The real trick there was not realizing that availability scales with force. Besides, Satellite nukes weren't in the books back then. Those are WAR!! gear, aren't they?

QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Apr 11 2011, 10:18 AM) *
What? These sound like characters that did a bit of finagling post-creation.

A bit of finagling is an understatement for leaving Chicago alive. Those absurd powerlevels are necessary.
CanRay
*Sings in the key of off* "I once shot a 'Runner in Reno, just to watch him die..."
ggodo
Note to self, find out if Folsom prison is still around in 2072.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (ggodo @ Apr 11 2011, 08:36 PM) *
Note to self, find out if Folsom prison is still around in 2072.


Because if they hear that whistle blowin', they'll hang their heads and cry.
ravensmuse
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Apr 11 2011, 08:23 AM) *
Three good lessons.

3) Never deal with a dragon.

QUOTE
...my group is based out of Denver, working for the Big White Wyrm (whom they initiated a relationship with themselves)

They started it smile.gif

No, seriously. I've been meaning to kind of talk about it on here actually - guess I'll take the time to do so now.

The original idea for my campaign was to have my players world hopping from place to place, Cowboy Bebop style. Working for the Big White Worm was supposed to be a one-time thing; something that might come back to bite them later on down the road in some other location, I dunno.

One thing lead to another, and more jobs started rolling in from him. Finally, one of the players just said, "screw it, let's just hire ourselves out permanently." And that's what they've been doing. They started their own "contracting" business, found themselves some abandoned territory, and started building themselves a home. All while working for the wyrm.

So, like I said, they're the ones that started it. I just went along for the ride smile.gif
Tyro
Dragons aren't so bad when you look at the alternatives for employment :-/
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Tyro @ Apr 11 2011, 03:19 PM) *
Dragons aren't so bad when you look at the alternatives for employment :-/

Then again, your employment opportunities skyrocket when you can put "dragonslayer" on your resume. ork.gif
Tyro
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Apr 11 2011, 04:49 PM) *
Then again, your employment opportunities skyrocket when you can put "dragonslayer" on your resume. ork.gif

As does your notoriety and the number and value of contracts on your head
ggodo
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Apr 11 2011, 04:49 PM) *
Then again, your employment opportunities skyrocket when you can put "dragonslayer" on your resume. ork.gif

It's already his totem, don't make it his goal.
Tyro
QUOTE (ggodo @ Apr 11 2011, 05:23 PM) *
It's already his totem, don't make it his goal.

I don't know, sounds appropriate to me
ggodo
QUOTE (Tyro @ Apr 11 2011, 05:25 PM) *
I don't know, sounds appropriate to me

The funny thing is that he really wants to work with S-K because he's a car nut, and loves their German Engineering.
ravensmuse
I can get away with this because its my thread.
Tiralee
Er, I tossed in those examples as there's no way I'd let new characters go play in Bugtown.
Or Australia.

-Tir

Crushing your player's will is fine, but I like to let them hope a little first.
Insect sprits sort of preclude that.

-T
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Tiralee @ Apr 11 2011, 08:49 PM) *
Er, I tossed in those examples as there's no way I'd let new characters go play in Bugtown.
Or Australia.

-Tir

Crushing your player's will is fine, but I like to let them hope a little first.
Insect sprits sort of preclude that.

-T

Can they survive if they're all powergaming?
ex:
Binky the centaur
FA grenade launcher elf
(properly done) street sammie w/barett 121
Bubba the love troll
and Bear Who Walks Through Walls
all in one party?
Tyro
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Apr 12 2011, 12:31 AM) *
Can they survive if they're all powergaming?
ex:
Binky the centaur
FA grenade launcher elf
(properly done) street sammie w/barett 121
Bubba the love troll
and Bear Who Walks Through Walls
all in one party?

Bear who walks through walls? Is that the adept with all the anti-structure abilities who doesn't bother with doors?
toturi
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Apr 11 2011, 07:20 PM) *
There's a little bit of a firefight, and my wife is tossing grenades left right and center. There's one big ol' true form and a bunch of humies that they can't see thanks to smoke from the explosions. As they're continuing on, a grenade lands in-between one of the character's legs...and he crit glitches. Thank you, GM'ing gods. I had been looking for a way to wrap up the night, and they just handed it to me on a silver platter.

So whose grenade was it? And what roll did he crit glitch?

Was he out of Edge? Was he denied the opportunity to use Edge? Why weren't they under Guard?
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Tyro @ Apr 11 2011, 11:33 PM) *
Bear who walks through walls? Is that the adept with all the anti-structure abilities who doesn't bother with doors?

Couldn't have put it better myself. Yes.
ravensmuse
QUOTE (toturi @ Apr 12 2011, 03:49 AM) *
So whose grenade was it? And what roll did he crit glitch?

Was he out of Edge? Was he denied the opportunity to use Edge? Why weren't they under Guard?

The character wasn't out of Edge, no. I ruled that due to the crit glitch Edge would only lessen the damage, not completely nullify it, and the player took the damage on his own volition. Guard?

Plus it was past our end time (I had work in the morning, and pulling doubleshifts sucks) and the players got a kick out of it, so.
Tyro
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Apr 12 2011, 03:40 AM) *
The character wasn't out of Edge, no. I ruled that due to the crit glitch Edge would only lessen the damage, not completely nullify it, and the player took the damage on his own volition. Guard?

Plus it was past our end time (I had work in the morning, and pulling doubleshifts sucks) and the players got a kick out of it, so.

Guard is a spirit power which makes glitches impossible. Higher level parties often have a spirit hang around just to keep Guard up on them at all times.
ravensmuse
Now that I'm thinking about it, I don't think I like the sound of that. Will have to watch out for it.
Tyro
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Apr 12 2011, 04:15 AM) *
Now that I'm thinking about it, I don't think I like the sound of that. Will have to watch out for it.

Yeah, in my games Guard is self-only (so the spirit can be immune to glitching, but it can't make others immune), and Edge works differently:

Edge rerolls affect all dice, not just the ones that didn't hit.
Edge dice added to a test are rolled separately. If this separate test glitches, the test as a whole glitches as well. If the edge test critically glitches, the test glitches AND loses hits equal to the number of 1's rolled with Edge dice. This can make the test as a whole critically glitch if this brings the number of hits to zero.

This makes Edge more of a "shoot for the moon" effect: potentially amazing results, but also greater risk.

Glitches are pretty rare; if one happens, I want to have fun with it, not have the player say "OK, I spend a point of edge".
Machiavelli
I really need another SR-group for checking if our group plays completely wrong or not. I always hear comments and see houserules for mages, edge etc. because the people think there could be something broken with them, but i really have to say that these problems never occured to us. Our mages donīt kill thousands of enemies with the blink of an eye while suffering no drain, our edge is usually gone after the first part of the adventure and everbody is keeping at least one point as part of the "safety first" rule, so that we can buy "gods-hand" if needed...and on top of that: we have a lot of glitches and a critical glitch is also not uncommon nor is it rare.
Tyro
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 12 2011, 04:36 AM) *
I really need another SR-group for checking if our group plays completely wrong or not. I always hear comments and see houserules for mages, edge etc. because the people think there could be something broken with them, but i really have to say that these problems never occured to us. Our mages donīt kill thousands of enemies with the blink of an eye while suffering no drain, our edge is usually gone after the first part of the adventure and everbody is keeping at least one point as part of the "safety first" rule, so that we can buy "gods-hand" if needed...and on top of that: we have a lot of glitches and a critical glitch is also not uncommon nor is it rare.

What are your dicepools like?
Machiavelli
Depends on character class (of course, you know that already).

Mage: spellcasting between 12-14 dice, drain-soak 12, summoning 12, physical soak incl. armor app. 12.
Sam: shooting appr. 18-20, physical soak around 18 (human) to more than 30 (orks and trolls).

With e.g. 12 dices you only need to be wounded (-2 or -3), bad weather or lighting conditions, cover, movement, background count etc. and you are in a 5-7 dice range. I donīt know the exact statistics, but a dice pool in this size is quite glitch-endangered.
A glitch or even a critical glitch for the sams while shooting is less common, but even these 20 dices are quickly reduced. Maybe the other groups forget about all the modifiers that exist? I donīt know.
Tyro
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 12 2011, 05:10 AM) *
Depends on character class (of course, you know that already).

Mage: spellcasting between 12-14 dice, drain-soak 12, summoning 12, physical soak incl. armor app. 12.
Sam: shooting appr. 18-20, physical soak around 18 (human) to more than 30 (orks and trolls).

With e.g. 12 dices you only need to be wounded (-2 or -3), bad weather or lighting conditions, cover, movement, background count etc. and you are in a 5-7 dice range. I donīt know the exact statistics, but a dice pool in this size is quite glitch-endangered.
A glitch or even a critical glitch for the sams while shooting is less common, but even these 20 dices are quickly reduced. Maybe the other groups forget about all the modifiers that exist? I donīt know.

If you're shooting at night while wounded, I think things should go wrong nyahnyah.gif

I like grit (within reason, of course).
Machiavelli
Of course. We play Shadowrun. Shadow implies darkness, mostly found at night. And shooting?....i would say this is everydays work. Because it is everbody elses work too, being shot is quite common. So this means to me, being wounded and shooting at night is what we basically play....ergo.....glitches are everything but NOT rare.^^

PS: you are located in Seattle? Great, just found sombody i am going to visit for a short round of SR when i come to the US the next time.^^ Always wanted to see Seattle.^^
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Tyro @ Apr 12 2011, 07:11 AM) *
If you're shooting at night while wounded, I think things should go wrong nyahnyah.gif

I like grit (within reason, of course).


This is why my shooter always character ultrasound, IR, and nightvision on him....
Tyro
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 12 2011, 05:19 AM) *
Of course. We play Shadowrun. Shadow implies darkness, mostly found at night. And shooting?....i would say this is everydays work. Because it is everbody elses work too, being shot is quite common. So this means to me, being wounded and shooting at night is what we basically play....ergo.....glitches are everything but NOT rare.^^

PS: you are located in Seattle? Great, just found sombody i am going to visit for a short round of SR when i come to the US the next time.^^ Always wanted to see Seattle.^^

It's a nice area. If my sister's in town at the time, that would be cool too - she's a German student smile.gif
ravensmuse
I'm trying to write this way too many times, so I'm just going to say -

I hate powergamers.
Tyro
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Apr 12 2011, 07:25 PM) *
My disgust at such a thing is less because of "oh my god my players will abuse that!" - though there is a slight worry of that - and more an eye-rolling, of course people are going to abuse that. And then claim its absolutely the thing you should pick up for your character, and if you're not doing it you're dumb, and other stupid stop having fun bullshit you see bandied about on roleplaying forums everywhere.

It's such a minor thing, but when combined with other hacks - and half-understood, much less contextual crap like Edge "abuse" - it just makes me grimace.

Such what thing? You neglected to quote, and the post wouldn't make sense as the subject of your issue.
Machiavelli
Besides that, edge is limited to maximum 7. This is really not so much that you could "abuse" it. Play a run that is split in 2 or 3 sessions, then even the player with 7 edge has to think exactly when he spents it and when not.
ravensmuse
QUOTE (Tyro @ Apr 12 2011, 10:27 PM) *
Such what thing? You neglected to quote, and the post wouldn't make sense as the subject of your issue.

Haha, notice that I went back and edited it Tyro smile.gif My wife had the television going, and unfortunately, it was distracting me.

My issue is that Guard is one of those things that when written looks innocuous enough, but in the hands of "creative" individuals, gets abused. Is having a spirit buddy save your bacon once in a blue moon cool? Yeah, it is. But to specifically underwrite one of the core elements of the game (hey, occasionally you fuck up really badly) because your character is an immortal elf puncher that can't be stopped, well, that smacks of viewing the game as nothing more than a single player video game, and that annoys me. It further annoys me that it's yet another thing I have to watch out for, because there are people out there that would specifically abuse it and then act shocked when I tell them that they're being dinguses.

The video game comparison is apt, by the way; the same people that would abuse this sort of thing are the same assholes who like to snake in Mario Kart.
Machiavelli
Which one? Super Mario Kart on the SNES?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 12 2011, 10:38 PM) *
Besides that, edge is limited to maximum 7. This is really not so much that you could "abuse" it. Play a run that is split in 2 or 3 sessions, then even the player with 7 edge has to think exactly when he spents it and when not.


Actually, a Human can have an 8 Edge. wobble.gif
toturi
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Apr 13 2011, 06:39 PM) *
My issue is that Guard is one of those things that when written looks innocuous enough, but in the hands of "creative" individuals, gets abused. Is having a spirit buddy save your bacon once in a blue moon cool? Yeah, it is. But to specifically underwrite one of the core elements of the game (hey, occasionally you fuck up really badly) because your character is an immortal elf puncher that can't be stopped, well, that smacks of viewing the game as nothing more than a single player video game, and that annoys me. It further annoys me that it's yet another thing I have to watch out for, because there are people out there that would specifically abuse it and then act shocked when I tell them that they're being dinguses.

Why would it be "abuse"? In the case of preventing glitches, I think it is simply being used as it should be. Deliberately diving under the surface of the water and not drowning would be abuse of Guard. One key feature of Shadowrun, I feel, is that there is always a counter. Glitching? Guard is a good counter, except when you Glitch calling up that spirit in the first place.

I hold a vastly different view of the issue. It annoys me that people see other people that use a game mechanic that specifically undermines another as smacking of viewing the game as nothing more than a single player video game. It also annoys me that they would view such people as "abusing" the mechanic; I'd probably say the same of that person if he were to tell me that using Guard in the manner as it is clearly written is being a "dingus".

I do not like rulebreakers. They are cheats. But using a clearly useful game mechanics as it is written is not breaking the rules; powergaming is just another style of playing an RPG. I suspect I hate people who have to houserule or otherwise feel the need to regulate the use of good and useful game mechanics to conform to their idea of "fun" as much as you hate powergamers.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 12 2011, 10:38 PM) *
Besides that, edge is limited to maximum 7. This is really not so much that you could "abuse" it. Play a run that is split in 2 or 3 sessions, then even the player with 7 edge has to think exactly when he spents it and when not.

Actually, I think it's 8.
7 from being a Human.
+ 1 from a feat- I mean quality.

You should take that quality. "if you're not doing it you're dumb". grinbig.gif
longbowrocks
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Apr 13 2011, 03:39 AM) *
The video game comparison is apt, by the way; the same people that would abuse this sort of thing are the same assholes who like to snake in Mario Kart.

Lawful evil and lovin' it.
http://gamerfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2...nment-Chart.jpg
longbowrocks
I'd like to add that it's a lot of fun to look through the rules and find interesting ways to combine bonuses. I try not to abuse loopholes, but then again, what other people would call "abusable loopholes", are what I see as "Nuances in wording cleverly hidden by developers as a rewarding sort of easter egg hunt for people that read their books thoroughly".
Probably not the reality of the situation, but hey, that's how I see it.
ravensmuse
QUOTE (toturi @ Apr 13 2011, 10:09 AM) *
Why would it be "abuse"? In the case of preventing glitches, I think it is simply being used as it should be. Deliberately diving under the surface of the water and not drowning would be abuse of Guard. One key feature of Shadowrun, I feel, is that there is always a counter. Glitching? Guard is a good counter, except when you Glitch calling up that spirit in the first place.

I hold a vastly different view of the issue. It annoys me that people see other people that use a game mechanic that specifically undermines another as smacking of viewing the game as nothing more than a single player video game. It also annoys me that they would view such people as "abusing" the mechanic; I'd probably say the same of that person if he were to tell me that using Guard in the manner as it is clearly written is being a "dingus".

I do not like rulebreakers. They are cheats. But using a clearly useful game mechanics as it is written is not breaking the rules; powergaming is just another style of playing an RPG. I suspect I hate people who have to houserule or otherwise feel the need to regulate the use of good and useful game mechanics to conform to their idea of "fun" as much as you hate powergamers.

I think longbow has the right of it - you and I have vastly different perceptions of gaming.

Purposely gaming the system annoys me. It's like you're trying to eliminate every aspect of failure so that you can get the best result, all the time. Glitches - critical glitches - are fundamental mechanics of the world. They happen. Walking around with a spirit buddy following you simply so that you don't trip and fall over something and walk into a glass wall smacks of - "this is my world, and fuck you, I'm a fsking god." Reminds me so much of listening to people talk about 4th edition D&D and why I left the community in general.

I get that the fun for you is to work the system and that that's the kind of gaming you like to do. But that's why I've got my group, and you've got yours. Different strokes, different folks.
longbowrocks
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
May I just point out that Guard also gives you a little opportunity for fun?

"The Guard power gives the critter the ability to prevent normal
environmental accidents and hazards (both natural and those induced
by the Accident power), such as preventing someone from succumbing
to heatstroke or saving someone from drowning. The Guard power can
also be used to prevent a glitch from occurring. Guard may be used on
a number of characters at once equal to the critter’s Magic attribute."

Your players will probably become quite confident in this ability, so any glitches will become that much more of a big deal, and to me, that sounds like a GM's kind of fun.
There are a few ways to do this:
  1. This power prevents normal environmental accidents and hazards. I'm pretty sure cooking off a grenade for too long doesn't fall into that category. In fact, most likely glitches I can think of don't fall into that category.
  2. Put some mana static in the mix so the spirit is no longer viable. The players may have forgotten how bad glitches can be at this point. Suddenly, the Sammie needs to default on an active skill. Poor guy.


Then again, critter powers can be pretty ridiculous. Just have fun.
Tyro
I hate mana static as an answer to anything. Like nuking mosquitoes at point-blank range.

Granted, the mosquitoes have automatic weapons, but still.
ggodo
QUOTE (Tyro @ Apr 13 2011, 06:53 PM) *
I hate mana static as an answer to anything. Like nuking mosquitoes at point-blank range.

Granted, the mosquitoes have automatic weapons, but still.

My policy with Mana Static is only in places where it makes sense. like Blood Magicky places and radioactive stuff. WHich reminds me, what sort of a background count would a toxic waste processing plant have?
longbowrocks
None. Zero. And whatever is there definitely won't harm a troll who carries his bow with him. Proven fact.
You know what would be dangerous and thrilling? Bunnies. You could send bunnies after us.

...Please?
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