Pretty sure from Context that Irion was talking about 8-10 Spells, Not Force. He did say that it was not worth Quickening any Spell of less than Force 6. Could be wrong though.

Still, Having to replace a Force 8-10 Spell each time it was brought down would get crazy expensive with Karma, Real Fast. Increasingly so with each additional Spell above the first.

Thanks for the support for mundanes. I can see how technomancers and hackers would beat magic users in the matrix. On the other hand, I'm pretty fixated on combat at the moment.

Also, aren't technomancers awakened? There's no way they count as mundane, seeing as definitively mundane people cannot replicate a technomancer's abilities.

Nothing Stupid about that rule at all. In fact, I quite like it. It makes the Hacker actually mean something, rather than having the Hacker (using the basic system) with the Logic of 1, which I have seen. There is no reason to have a Logic higher than 1 for hacking in the basic ruleset.

And an optimized Hacker will likely have enough ware in him to completely negate the benefits of the Adept's magic. I will admit to really wanting the ability to Multitask, that the Adept can acquire, but that is really about it. And though you cannot bypass that limit with ware (though you can come close, at least fluff wise), the Adept will likely not have 3-4 passses in the Meat, as well as 5 in the Matrix.

Can you buy the same quality twice to gain double the benefit? Feyware per Attitude is an item that grants a quality, I can't imagine a quality stacking with itself.



Latent Awakening gives you 1 Magic, and if when it activates you have used any essence at all, you're an instant burnout, unless there's something I missed.



I dunno, my group shies away from technomancers so I'm not particularly familiar with what they are capable of, but from what I've read they seem to be very hit and miss. Especially with that houserule, where you're just increasing your threshold, and the adept is throwing 3 extra dice



A straight up mage will be very versatile, with high magic etc, and has different ways to counter it that need to be put in just for the mage.

An adept on the other hand will basically always be better than a mundane at his specialization. Even if there is nothing else in the power list to support the specialization, the 3 higher skill cap will do it.



Really? The character in question has 10 initiate grades, this means he has 9 metamagics besides centering, and most of those also scale from initiate grade. Just being a grade 10 initiate is a pretty huge deal that does a lot more for you than drain resistance. And you still have nearly 200 more karma to increase magic further, or pick up more foci (for example a solid power foci could be more efficient than a straight up magic increasing. You have a ton of drain resistance so you can overcast to a relatively high force without worrying too much, thus lowering some of the benefit of higher magic).

The only karma spent ONLY on drain is the 10 karma on quickening 2 force 5 spells.



There was a choice between a low karma quickened spell for a situation where dispelling and high force wards aren't frequent, and high karma quickened spells if they are. High Karma quickened spells aren't going to be taken down by wards anywhere near as often. A Force 6 barrier has 12 dice to throw at it. Your force 5 quickened spell may only have 11+ dice to throw at it, by a force 16 overcasted spell has 22+ dice (the plus being any extra karma invested in it and any extra magic raising or force foci)

Feasible, but not as easy as you would think. I cannot remember the last time that a Focus was destroyed by happenstance (it is generally a plot element). I have seen many Quickened spells fall to the vagaries of implemented Wards, however. They are not equal in any fashion whatsoever. Foci are MUCH more valuable than a Quickened spell in my opinion.

Besides, using your logic, a human would never survive the effects of the Fireball either. If a Human can survive the effect, his Foci should have no real issue with it. Obviously, something is wrong with your example.

Any creature with a Magic attribute is Awakened, any creature with a Ressonance attribute is Emerged.

I think Mystic Adepts work out Great, even without any tricks...

I think he was going by the rules. Handheld object frequently have structure ratings of 1 due to their size, and as for armor/barrier rating, I hardly expect your focus to be made of reinforced concrete or diamond.

Yeah, I do not know. But you can get Qualities and gear that do the same thing and they stack. So...



Nope, you missed it. Your Magic is a 1, and your Maximum Magic is 6- Essence Loss, You can raise your magic from there, and Initiations will increase your MAximum MAgic Attribute as normal.



Technomancer can rule the School eventually, and and Adept will never keep up.



Yes, a mage is very versatile, No arguments.
An Adept, all other things being equal, will still potentially have +3 Dice.



But that Grade 10 Initiate MUST have a minimum Magic of 10 to go with it, otherwise he cannot be a Grade 10 Initiate. You can only have a number of Initiate Grades equal to magic rating. You may have a number of Metamagic techniques equal to your Magic + Initiate Grade. So, to get 10 grades of Initiation, you have spent HUGE amounts of Karma (minimum of 170 on Magic, Assuming you started at Magic 6, and an additional 164 for the Initiations: Total of 334 Karma Expenditure) on nothing else . Nothing at all. So you are really not all that much better than a mage who is fresh out of Character Generation. You will have more options, to be sure, but you will not be significantly more powerful overall.



Which all take MORE resources to get there, oppn top of your already ludicrous spellcaster, who is not much better than the newb off the street casting wise.

Not every delta clinic offers cybermancy. There's still only about a dozen institutions that include cybermancers among their staff, but the procedure has indeed become a good deal more common, more reliable and also more powerful than in previous editions.

I'd still require to call in a few favors to get the treatment, but it shouldn't be that much more difficult than getting into a standard delta clinic (which is only a Tr 24 Availability test away).

Tymeaus, if they have Latent Awakening, they're an Awakened character for our purposes; buying Magician later is pure GM houseruling. Technomancers are equivalent to Awakened. They're not mundane.

The mage doesn't have to worry about BC/Wards/astral threats if he doesn't 'go astral'. Again, he can have all the abilities and gear of a mundane… plus the magic, when desired. They do have unique drawbacks (thank god!), but hardly crippling.

Not that it's a major issue, but the question of 'who's the defender, spell or ward?' sounds far from clear.

Is cybermancy *really* that common now? :/ I don't think it's relevant, though. Cyberzombies are NPC-only, and they're a huge threat to everyone (mage or not).

Those 10 grades of iniation can alos give you +20 dice for counterspelling and allow you to absorb incoming spells completely up to about force 6 ( if they use higher force spells you just reduce it by 6 or so)
witch also allows you to reduce your next spells drain by 6, allowing you to cast pretty damm high force spells when combined with those 40 resistance dice.

They are not awakened until they actually AWAKEN. Come on Yerameyahu, you know that. And yes, Allowing purchase after the fact is a house rule. Not one we use, but I have heard of others that allow it. Technomancers are not awakened. Not sure why you would think so.

Mages always have to worry about Background Count and Wards. ALWAYS. Whether or not they are actually active in Astral Space. Not sure why you would think differently there Yerameyahu.

Cybermancy is more common than it used to be, but not really that common, no.

Sure, if you actually have any spells to cast with... The premise of the 400 Karma Character was eaten up by all of the Initiating. So, you just have your starting spells for the most part. Your target can only be so dead after all. And it is far easier to do with mundane resources than magical ones.

In my opinion, the mage spent that wad of karma for no reason, and I would never want such an inept character with my team. Give me the Magic 4 (Starting Character), Initate Grade 3 (29 Karma) mage with 50 (250 Karma) Spells anyday... He spent 279 Karma out of the ionitial 400, has 121 Karma Left, and will be infintely more useful. That monstrosity that is being hypothesized is useless as far as I am concerned.

I didn't say they were awakened, fullstop. I said they're awakened for our purposes. And I didn't say Technomancers were awakened. I said they were equivalent. For a thread specifically about awakened vs. mundane? Come on, Tymeaus.

No, they don't. Without active foci, quickened spells, etc., they can walk right through like anyone else. Are you thinking of Dual-Natured critters?

I don't understand why you're acting like I'm the crazy one.

Amen brother. 50 spells make you the christmas tree full of golf bags of utility. Wreck Drone, Urban Renewal (Guns), most Detection spells, most Manipulation spells, and some Illusion/Health to round it out. Booyah. You could get a Force 10 ally spirit with that 121 Karma and still have karma left.

Ahh...just checked Augmentation again. I thought that medical care table included Cybermancy in the footnotes. My bad. Delta is still ridiculously easy to get in this edition making it damn nigh infinitely more accessible for PCs to zombie. No more needing to roll 20's and 30's on you d6 for availability anymore. <sigh> Takes a lot of the wonder and fun out of the high end gear.

Is that an argument that awakened characters outshine, or not? The power of having many spells is a major asset of a spellcasting character (even with a more reasonable number, like 20).

Actually it's pretty hard to make a cyber zombie out of delta ware, becouse you need so damm many different pieces of ware to get into sub zero essence.

Just out of curiosity: Initiation cost 10+*level* x 3 doesn't it?
So you would end up with: 10*10+55*3=100+165=265 Karma (with all discounts you end up with 173 Karma (always round up!))
You might have already calculated the discount but for that you need to join a group for an additional 5 Karma.
So you end up with a least 178 Karma for initiation alone. Ad to this the cost of Magic 170.
You will end up with 348 used karma leaving you 52 for the rest.
Yes I know Initiations get better the more you got, because you get +1 to even more.
And you have no direct benefits. No ally spirit, not even a focus, no quickend spells. etc.
Sorry, but from a PG point of few there is nothing usefull in getting Magic 10 for 50 Karma.

Are you talking about deltaware in general? Because I have no idea how the 1 mil required for delta wired reflexes 3 counts as "easy".

Okay, point taken...



Actaully, the point being argued was that the spellcaster just had to buff his quickened spells to such a point that they could ignore any BCG or Wards. My counter to that was that that was Crap... Yes, if there are no spells active, and no Foci Active, then they are treated as a mundane. I Never actually argued that point. My contention is that the proposed character with the 10 Initiate Grades and the 8-10 Quickened Spells was ludicrous, because it could not function the way it was being presented. That is all...



Aren't you? Sorry if I was ruffling feathers.

I never use quickened spells in the first place, so that's someone else's argument to deal with. And no, you know well enough that you're the crazy one!

Full body replacement (6.25) + Move by wire 3(5) + Cybereyes(0.5) + Cyberears (0.5) and you are home
Together 12.25 divided by two is 6.125.
Well, but I have to admit it is harder to get lower. Because now the slots of the bodyparts need to be filled. This will be getting damn expensive.
(If you want some usefull cyberlegs you are paying hell)
Not to mention the maintance you would need to "function".
(If you use essence saving qualities, genetics and get the bio version of the implants too, yes then you won't make it without getting the hole damn two books . Using cyber suites is a no go too.)

While possible in theorie, it is highly inefficient. You get nothing you would not get cheaper with 4 Points of Bio and 3 Points of Cyber. (5.5 Essence)
Getting deeper than essence -4 I think it is not even possible if you use the essence saving stuff.

I did the math for each level individually, not as a group, which makes a difference.
8+10+12+14+15+17+19+21+23+24= 163, +5 (Group Cost) =168 (Group and Ordeal Discounts of 40%)... Added to the 170 becomes 338. So you are off by 10 points.

And yes... No direct benefits other than initiation... which is poor character crafting indeed.
And you do not get Magic 10 for 50 Karma... you get it for 170 Karma.

I never use them either... waste of points in my opinion.
And, I prefer the term Unique...

AFB right now, but I'm almost positive sure that all these metamagics you just quoted from the Street Magic are all from Street Magic, which means the book is only refering to the new metamagics provided in the book. Not the ones from the core book (which Masking is one of the few metamagics an Adept may take from the core book).

I wouldn't call them common, but yes, the number of clinics that do the treatment have more than doubled since the days of Hatchetman.
Not surprising, it's been 15 years ingame time between Beyond the Pale and Augmentations.
And once more, they aren't officially NPC only. I think toxics, insect shamans, dissonants, dracoforms and a few very obscure sapient critters are the only things in SR4 that still are NPC only nowadays.




You get drastically raised attribute maxima and you get to cheat death. You won't get fake immortality and Agility 15(22) with 4 points of bio and 3 points of cyber.
As far as getting below -4, i didn't double-check the math, but with lots of geneware and almost any compatible piece of cyber and bio in the book, you can still get to -6 or at least close to it even with full delta, biocompatibility, adapsin and a cybersuit.

Genetic Optimization for every Attribute would net you a Cool 3.2 Essence Loss all by itself, and there are no grades for such things. Throw in a suite of Gene-Tweaked Immunities, and you are almost at 6 Essence loss all by itself. With no further 'ware implanted. It is not all that hard to get to -6 Essence, even with Delta Grade Everything. One could argue that the Procedure uses the optimization of Suites as well, but Adapsion is only for Cyberware. Biocompatability, of course, can be applied to either technology.

That house rule is a bit unfriendly to technomancers. Even so, a technomancer with the appropriate Widgets prepared (they add their rating to all [insert specific category of matrix-related] tests, and last for eight hours) is going to wreck some face.

As a side note, I have no problem whatever with a Logic 1 hacker or technomancer. If you want to play an idiot savant, go right ahead. But such a person is not a functional human being, and is likely not smart enough to do complex tasks outside of the one area that he mysteriously excels at. Functionally, he'd be comparable to that Dwarf enchanter character from Dragon Age: "Enchantment?" "I like dogs!" "Doggie! Ruff ruff ruff!" "Can I have some salamanders, please?"

You are under a misaprehension. Logic 1 is Functional... Just barely, but functional.

Knew a guy in the Corps that would likely fall into that category in Shadowrun. Took orders really well, but had very little initiative. His ASVAB scores were the lowest I had ever seen, just barely above acceptable.

Yes indeed I somehow mixed up some numbers. The first is also incorrect.
The 50 however is correct. It meant from 9 to 10.

If you choose to interpret it that way, may I suggest the following?

Log1 Hacker: "Ok, so I found the node. Time to break in and get myself admin access."
GM: "Excellent. Roll a memory test."
Log1 Hacker: *rolls* "Two hits on five dice succeeds, right? This is an easy task?"
GM: "For you? No. You have logic 1. This is HARD for you. You forget what you were doing."
Log1 Hacker. "Frak me. Why did I choose to play a hacker with a logic of 1 again?"
GM: "Because you're a bad person."

Metagaming Bullshit.

Not at all. If someone is really prepared to play a character with stats at 1, they should accept the consequences of having done so. You have a logic of 1? This makes you mentally deficient. Not just a bit on the slow side but takes orders well - that would be logic 2 - but truly mentally deficient. Expect it to come up every single time you perform a logic related task, just the same as having a charisma of 1 would come up every time you opened your mouth in a social situation.

If a player is really going to try to be that kind of asshat and will not respond to reason (and, more importantly, is NOT intending to roleplay the deficiencies of his character), then it would be irresponsible NOT to let him suffer the full consequences for his poor decision. In this way, the player can serve as a valuable example to others. This is, of course, all you can hope for if a player is really THAT much of an asshat. Other options include telling him, "No. Build another character."

Whether it's a hard task or not depends on the task alone.
There is no "character has low Attribute level" penalty anywhere in the rules.

As far as the barely functional stuff goes, there's qualities specifically for that.
An attribute score of 1 only means you've got no talent at all for certain skills. Being a complete couch potato requires infirm, behaving as if you just ran out of your home forest for the first time requires Uneducated and/or Uncouth and there's qualities for being dangerously forgetful, oblivious, delusional or outright mentally handicapped as well.

Edit :
Look up Mental Handicap on p. 105 of Runner's Companion. Look up Oblivious on p. 107. Look up Uncouth and Incompetent in the core rules.
That's the stuff you're looking for in your examples.

Per default, SR4 assumes that the character is at least functional. Maybe not by a far margin, but to a point where he could make up for it by training (read : buying the appropriate skills) to peform at least slightly above average at a given task.

I agree with Rasumichin. There is nothing whatsoever in the rules that says that an attribute at 1 makes you mentally or physically handicapped. That is specifically what the qualities are for. In any case, Logic is NOT The Other Game's Intelligence. It is the ability to memorize stuff. You don't have to be autistic to be very bad at memorization.

If a GM is doing what you suggest to a character with an attribute at 1, they are doing so against RAW and through fiat. In that case, 'twould be the GM who is being a bit of an ass, not the player.

Most people have accepted that we have an excellent method for enforcing this, based on probability.
It's called dice.
The penalty doesn't need to be enforced by the GM, it's already enforced by the dice pool. They can still complete the task easily? Then it really is an easy task. Yes, even for them.

The problem is the logic 1 hacker can still have a hacking dice pool in the mid 20s.

Yes, in Shadowrun it really is as easy as pushing the big button labeled HACK.




-k

Before I start:

>>spending half as much as enhanced attribute needed for an (arguably) even better boost.
I have only one thing to say about that.

Sorry, I should have been more specific (damage vs. damage per second). Edge and IPs also play a role in damage, and whoever goes first will have an edge, so initiative has a little weight too. I didn't modify your MysAd in any way, so could we give this one more shot?


Elf:
stats:
Agility 9(13) = 75 BP
Reaction 5(9) = 40 BP
Intuition 5 = 40 BP
Edge 6 = 65 BP

Qualities:
Surge class 2 = 10 BP
Restricted gear*3 = 15 BP
Aptitude = 10 BP

Surge qualities:
Metagenetic improvement agility

Skills:
Longarms (sniper rifles) 8(+2) = 34 BP
34 BP

Recources 204k = 41 BP & 5.95 ess (wow, didn't realize I was that close until I did the math)
Ware:
Muscle toner 4 = 32k & 0.8 ess (0.4 ess due to cyberware)
Genetic optimization agility = 45k & 0.2 ess
Reflex recorder = 10k & 0.1 ess (0.05 ess due to cyberware)
Wired reflexes 3 = 100k & 5 ess
Reaction enhancers 1 = 10k & 0.3 ess

Gear:
Helmet with smartlink = 0.6k
Barret with external smartgun system = 6.4k

330 BP used

Dice pool to shoot the barret = Agility 13 + longarms 8 + spec 2 + smartlink 2 = 25 dice
Initiative = 14
IPs = 4

The mundane has 1 less die, and range penalties, but very high initiative and IPs.
I don't know if you can fit 4 IPs and 14 INI on a starting MysAd while maintaining all the rest of that, but we'll see.

At the very least it's clear to me now that adepts can invest for the long run, but whether they will take the day in a short campaign is still up in the air.

They didn't tell us in the book, but in the future, Turing complexity problems are old hat. Instead, Walt Disney complexity programs are used to write Turing complexity programs.
Anyway, yeah, enough aids will do it. Isn't part of that mad boost from skill?

Disagreements over interpretations of what it means to have an attribute rated at 1 aside, on the subject of Adept Hackers, is a mundane hacker left in the dust by adepts and technomancers? Widgets can make a technomancer's dice pools stupidly high. Adepts can easily get their matrix skills to +3 above mundane limits. Hmm.

Oh god no. We already have 8 pages on combat tradeoffs. Imagine what arguing this would do. As for that +3 bonus, can't hackers get any direct modifiers (the ones that count against your 1.5X cap) to their skills?

We should avoid rehashing the whole (subjective) debate over Logic-based hacking here. There are plenty of previous threads about it, or we can start a new one. Suffice it to say that the SR4 canon fluff is that there's *nothing* at all wrong with script kiddies; some *players*, like Tymeaus, disagree. That's fine, but it's a deliberate and personal *setting change*, not a rules issue per se. It is an optional rule in the book which alters the setting in this specific way.

There are also old threads on Technomancer v. mundane hacker, and almost certainly v. adept hacker; it doesn't bear too much on this thread.

As for cybermancy, it's NPC-only. Or rather, it's 'not for starting characters'.

Add these to my mysad
stats:
Reaction 5 = 40 BP
Intuition 5 = 40 BP
Edge 4 = 40 BP
Qualities:
Resricted gear 5BP
Gear:
Heath Sustaining focus force 4 8BP + 3BP to bind
spells:
Increase Reflexes 3BP


BP used 396 (yes he's not a working character but neither is really the mundane one)

With a force 4 Increase Reflexes spell with 4 hits active he has 4IP:S and 13 INI
So the Mundane sniper has 1 less dice, 1 more INI, 2 more Edge and 66BP more to spend.

The game makes no such claim of Logic 1 being mentally deficient. While I do think it is fair that the low attribute come up in play each time the character performs a logic related task, it does not mean that the character is really mentally deficient. Whether your character is actually mentally deficient or not, let the dice decide; success means no, failure means yes.

Whether your character is actually mentally deficient or not, let the dice decide; success means no, failure means yes.
Or You take a negative Quality !

Or the GM gives away a few more Points.

with a few more Dances
Medicineman

Why?
#1 If the guy wants to cripple himself, why do you want to penalize him further? Low Logic hackers are a bit stronger at chargen but fall behind the programming/hardware curve pretty fast.
#2 I'm sorry, no hacker is stupid (Hacker PC yes, hacker no). A hacker is genetically modified to be smarter, has a computer installed in his brain to help him think, and literally soaks his brain in intelligence-enhancing nanites. After that even a complete moron is at least an idiot savant and it just goes up from there.

I think the term you're looking for is script kiddie and no one expects them to be smart.

On the original topic, hackers are probably the archetype (besides Sams) that benefits least from Awakening. That just means that an Adept hacker isn't going to be much better than a mundane one, probably just some minor improvement, but if you absolutely have to be the best hacker you'd probably still go Adept or Mysad

I hate Script Kiddies.

As for the absolutely best Hacker? I would go Technomancer long before I went Adept or MysAd. But, then again, I see no reason to go either way. The hacker I have now is pretty damn good. And I still have 'ware I can get to make him even better. Not to mention increasing his skills to 6.

'I see no reason' != 'there is no reason'.

I do agree that hacker is only of the least desirable areas of specialty for an awakened, due to the existence of technomancers and to the opportunity cost: the awakened could do so much more, and the Matrix has crappy synergy with the astral, or even magic on the physical plane. *Not* because he's worse than a mundane.

True. But the emphasis was on the "I" part of that sentence. heh...

I imagine you could make a pretty good hacker with a Mage/Adept/MysAd theme to it. I have just never tried to do so. Using the optional rules set that we do, the extra dice obtained by the Adept for Increased Skill will generally not matter, due to caps emplaced by program ratings. Most adept abilities do not function in the Matrix after all. For the Mage/MysAd bent, the external Magic could indeed help to get a Hacker where he needs to be, but I have often found that the Technology available to a mundane hacker does that job just as well. Of course, a Face Mage/Hacker has all sorts of awesome potential in my mind, so there is that. Maybe I will have to look at designing such a character one of these days, though I have a much better idea for such a character using the Techgnomancer as a basis, that I am currently working on fleshing out now.