Well, hopefully the game I have with Pup the Dog Shaman will be a good experiment in this question.

Let us know how it works out...

Maybe I'm just tired, but I can't think of anything to beat this at creation. Looks like MysAds can beat mundane in damage even at creation.

Ok, how about this? Mundanes can get their AGI 2 points higher than any spellcaster.
Elf agi 7 + meta attrib 1 + enhanced attrib 1 + genetic opt 1 = 10 -> 10/2 = 5
max modified = 15 AGI

Huh? Do you mean just at chargen? I can't keep track of the switches from 'chargen' to 'high karma'.
Oh, because of the quality limit?

Sorry about that, you're right we keep changing back and forth. Actually I mean that spellcasters can never get 15 AGI except with latent awakening (you won't benefit from being awakened until really late in the game, and it's a gamble since the GM chooses your awakened quality). Dormant Metagenetics will not do the trick since it costs 10 BP for non-humans.
That ends up being a 20% chance of becoming a MysAd with 15 AGI at some point in the game, provided you are willing to powergame like crazy, wait an undetermined amount of time, and take that risk.

And it's not worth it, for a measly +2 (not even a net hit), especially when they can more than make up for that other ways. Assuming their purpose in life was to waste all their potential and be a sniper. And don't even get started on Channeling mages…

They also get that bonus on all their AGI based skills, and mundanes can perform this same trick for any physical attribute.
Where's the crying emoticon?

For any one attribute, yes. I think it's equally inefficient for all attributes, but you're right: the peculiarities of the quality limit do result in this. I'm just saying that the bonuses brought to bear by any given kind of awakened far outweigh +2 to one attrib's *max*. I think you're miscalculating anyway, although I forget if you're over or under.

Miscalculating on what? The quality limit?
It should be 10 BP for SURGE II (which gives you just enough for metagenetic improvement AGI), and 20 BP for enhanced attribute AGI.
That leaves 5 BP, which is enough to be an adept, but not enough to be a spellcaster.
Genetic optimization is 45k in nuyen, so whatever there.

Not that. The maximum.

Genetic Optimization is worded funky, so it might mean that it raises the max by 1; but I assume RAI that it's just funky wording, and it's actually 1.5. (I've mentioned my general 'round against the player' rule, but I'm only saying there's a minor ambiguity).

Metagenic Improvement explicitly raises the max by 1, not 1.5. Augmented max rounds down, so it'd be 14 (regardless of the interpretation of Genetic Optimization).

I'm not saying this is very important, just pointing out a tiny error for you.

I think I'm misunderstanding. It shouldn't matter whether these boosts raise anything by 1.5, since augmented maximum is derived from natural maximum in all cases (both RAI and RAW).
elf max is 7 for AGI, each of those three boosts stacks explicilty on the natural maximum, raising the max to 10. if natural max is 10, augmented max is 1.5*10=15.

Genetic optimization:
"may raise his maximum natural attribute rating (and consequently
his maximum augmented attribute rating)"
"This adjustment is compatible
with Exceptional Attribute."

Enhanced attribute:
"one attribute with a natural
maximum one point higher"
"This also increases the augmented maximum
for that attribute as appropriate."

Metagenetic improvement:
"minimum and maximum values for one of
the character’s attributes (as listed in the Metatype Attribute Table,
p.73, SR4) are both raised by 1."
"cumulative with the Exceptional
Attribute quality (p. 78, SR4) and genetech such as Genetic
Optimization (p. 89, Augmentation)."

This has got to be the first time that the important bits of each of these has made it into one post. Hope everybody likes it.

Could you also post a bit on channeling mages? I don't know what you mean by that, but I doubt it will derail the thread.

Besides, this thread is barely hanging on by a thread anyway.

What the hell are you talking about?
Those 3 thinks all raise the natural maximum by one, in case of an elfs agility to 10, so augmented maximum is 15

But you can't actually get to that augmented maximum(unless you want to use drugs), because you only have enought points left for one restricted gear quality, so your mundane also won't have a barret out of chargen.

The mentions of 1.5 strike me as odd, but when I'm this blown away by what one of the guys with over 4k posts says, there's usually a good explanation. For now I'm just waiting for Yerameyahu to come back.


Yeah, I guess I should mention again that I can't find any way to beat that MysAd from chargen, so MysAd's really do beat mundanes for combat damage acros the board.

That said, I decided to continue my adventure into the things awakened/spellcasters can't do that mundanes can.

A channeling mage takes a bound spirit with the possession power and lets it posses him, but thanks to the channeling metamagic maintains control of his body. He picks up immunity to natural weapons doing this as well.


So a typical 3s across the board mage summons a force 6 spirit and channels it, and now has 9 in all physical stats.

I'm not sure if this follows normal augmented maximums or not, but either way it's powerful. (And if it doesn't it's just silly broken)

The spirit originally added it's Force to the augmented max. That got errata'ed and the old maximum stays in place now.

Jeez, that is crazy.

Ha, oh geez. I'm sorry, I was reading G.O. as 'augmented maximum' is raised by one. There is no reason, I just was. Mental lapse.

lol, thanks.