Anyone know what the 'mind over matter' power is? It's mentioned as being one the speaker's way adept can get a discount on.

WAR page 178

I'm sorry, what book again? I don't remember any book titled "War!".

As i mentioned earlier, when walking the ways was being mentioned, there's no restriction to walking more than one path at once.

How many powers have overlaps between the paths?

Hey now, thats from the good 50 page part of the book.

1.75 is about 2, that's pretty good I think.

In regard to Mind Over Matter, I see it causing the same problems Weapon Trickery does in d20. One stat shouldn't do two unrelated things equally well. That leads to some really ridiculous circumstances, imagine what it would do for a mystic adept shaman face melee fighter.

Well, maybe it isn't as bad as all charisma casters being melee powerhouses.

No, but I could see a problem with the hermetic equivalent with cerebral boosters. Throw in genetic optimization and the surge quality and just maybe exceptional attribute... that's 12 max logic which would equate to 12 max agility which is kind of scary.

Pretty much nothink, melee combat skills are linked to agility

Not really considering that with those same tricks you can have a 15 max Agility.

Yes, but you wouldn't also have a 15 logic with which to do logical things and resist drain.

I have to admit, it does seem quite powerful as it is basically 1.5 PP for carte blanch to put leave a physical stat at 1 but still have it particularly high.

Well, I was thinking base damage, but yeah. Weapon Trickery was a "Use Charisma to hit" feat somewhere in d20. I remember having to ban it after the Sorcerer became a one man army. I still have nightmares about it. What Ghost says is a bit scarier.

Mind over matter doesn't help with that at all, as it's not a test.

Ooo, interesting. That makes the strength replacement even more useless because there is all of... 1 test that uses strength and it is never used? Body isn't all that useful either because you'll have decent body soak but you'll have sucky armor. Reaction is mixed bag because you'll have low init but high defenses. Looks like once again agility gets all the love.

Not to derail, but I hardly see how a couple extra To-Hit points makes a sorcerer an army (as if he wasn't already, of course).

In any case, remember the rule: War! sucks.

And this is what I get for commenting whilest sleepy.

Don't have a ton of time to comment, I'm in the middle of a study abroad trip at the moment, just have a bit of free time and thought I'd check my email and a few forums and whatnot. So I'm just gonna toss this up instead of replying individually. No offense to anyone! I'm not ignoring, I'm just mass-replying.

I appreciate the comments (both positive and critical), and all in all the fans have reacted favorably to Way of the Adept which makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. I had to make a few compromises and adjust a few things along the way that ended up changing how efficient the discounts were (based on playtest feedback), but I was still happy with the end result and most fans have been, too. The playtest issues raised were that in my early drafts Ways didn't cost anything, and that they were too broad (as I just initially allowed people to pick their own powers, subject to GM approval, based upon each individual character's interpretation of the Way they were walking). Alterations were made to (a) make Ways cost something, and (b) have "built in" limitations placed on which Ways discounted which powers -- so parts of the final product don't necessarily line up with my earliest visions, but if I didn't still think it was a cool little book I wouldn't have signed off on it as bein' finished.

So for the folks that dig it and think it adds a little crunch to go with the fluff of Ways, cool! I'm glad you're enjoying it, and hope it gives you a little extra magical "oomph" to stick it to those sammies and their stupid grades of 'ware and biocompatability and packages and junk. In case it's not immediately obvious when one reads most of my fiction prior to signing on as a freelancer, or those that just flipped through Way of the Adept, I'm a fan of the character type, and I'm thrilled for the other fans that are liking the book.

For the folks that wish it offered a bit more of a discount, or that are more concerned with the math/efficiency...cool! I kind of agree with ya, but we write what we can write, we listen to playtesters and line developers and as many other people as we can along the writing process, and that's that. I told a fun little story, had a good time writing up some Shadowtalk, tried to level the playing field in a few places with Way-specific powers, picked out some of my favorite artwork from 20+ years of Shadowrun gaming, and tried to cut adepts a little slack. I'm sorry if you didn't like how things fell out in the end, but I hope you still feel you got your $5 worth. Since it's all optional rules anyways, if you really think adepts are still getting the short end of the stick in Way of the Adept, chat with your GM or something and tweak the costs however you think they need to be tweaked. It's your game, not ours.

Nah, WAR first 126 pages mostly suck, the last 50 contain a lot of nice additions to the game, ofcource there are few bad eggs there too

There are maybe one or two good rules there. Most of the gear is just overpowered crap. Of course you may have rifles, which are superior to any other rifle.
Monofilament granade darn it. And so on and so on.
There are some good rules, like the degradation rule, which took care of I write my on raiting 10 Programms with a lot of options on them.

Well, and the arial chase rules might sometimes be interesting leading a smuggle run.
The technomancer Echo is bugged, because you do not know the raiting but therefor the range is much higher than the cyberware. Sucks.




But back to

As I first glanced on it I though: WTF.
Yes, it may be abused by social adepts, but hell.
It does not work on reaction, since you get bonus dice for reaction for any kind of passiv initiative improvement. (Well, exept the increased reflexes spell)
It does not work so well on agility since agility augmentations are dirt cheap.
So strength is the only really usefull attribute and maybe body. (But since you are just using it for test (still no armor or additional boxes) it is not that good after all)
And strength would not get you any bonus damage.
So yeah it burns down to agility. Well, it aint't that great.
(Exept of course a hermetic mage could be taking it as a metamagic, which he can't. Wasting two points of magic and the whole astral cake does not seem worth it. Get some muscle toner and be happy, since magic lost through essence is easy bought back)

Back to topic:
First: Mind over matter seems horrible broken on the first glance but it ain't that bad. Even with way of the adept.

Critics to way of the adept:

VERY BAD RULING. You may choose increased reflexes or increase skill. The amount of points saved all around the book.
Still it is not saying if I am able to pick increased Reflex 3 and it counts as one power.
Better ruling would be like


Well, this rules sucks too:
But it is from Street magic, so it would be barkin at the wrong tree.

I like the special powers for the different ways. (By the way in the first one is (I guess) a typing error. The max level is missing. Since every other power has one...

I thought the "one power per two points" thing was very clear. Every two points of magic you get you get to pick anther power. since Increased reflexes is a power no matter what rating it is, you can use your discount power on any level of increased reflexes you want. If you have six magic then you can still pick two more discounts, and if you have four magic then you'll still have another, no matter what rating you picked.

If you're arguing from a perspective of balance, I can't speak to that as no one's ever made an adept in my games.

The thing Irion caught very well and where he's right is, only two classes have access to a reduced Improved Reflexes and therefore a high absolute discount, while the percentage is the same for all ofc. All other ways don't really get a good absolute discount.

@ggodo
Well, both.
First of all: It is not obvious if increased reflexes 3 would count as 1 or as 3 Powers. (There were discussion about stuff here, which even I thought were obvious)
(But granted it is a minor point for sure)

As for balance: You do not need an adpet to judge that just ask yourself: Is it fair that person A gets 1 Powerpoint discount, while person B only gets 0.125 Powerpoint discount.
I guess thats not hard to judge.

@Makki
As a matter of fact I just found the Warrior to have access. But thats not a bid deal since they get a good set of powers anyway.

It's quite powerful because most of the powers that other ways can select are between .25 and 1 PP in total cost with an occasional one going up to 1.5

The warrior way however has a huge concentration of all the most expensive powers including improved reflexes, combat sense, and Improved Ability (Combat skills).

Yes, for the warrior it means cutting all his cost by 25%. Compared to the Speaker where it is only about 50% or even less.

IMHO there are lots of good stuff in there:
Leadership rules, composure rules, suppressive fire rules, new grunts and contacts, Ares Bravo/Sierra assault rifles, the nice addition of battle rifles(except HVBAR) and Mines,Cluster and Gecko Grenades, Millspec commlinks and software, Wingsuit, both of the new ware's(should have had more ware in there, but i take what i can get), combat aircrafts that can actually perform their intended function, more vehicle weapons, new adept power and propaply few other think that don't come to mind right now.

*wince*

Thanks, and fixed that for you. Sorry about that. Typing faster than thinking.

Seems we're still dealing with the rounding question, which Critias answered in this thread over on the official SR forums. Basically, he's of the opinion that you're making it way more complicated than it needs to be. Pay particular attention to reply #4.

Some of you might have seen this already, but it seems to have gotten lost for others, so I'm pointing to it to make things easier for all involved.

My overall thought process was twofold:

1) Those who have the most expensive powers need the most help by comparison. Because so many (IMHO) overpriced powers are central to the ability of a Warrior to do his job and murder people right in their faces (Improved Attribute is criminally overpriced, Improved Ability for combat skills just happens to cost twice as much as Improved Ability for everyone else's areas of specialization, and Improved Reflexes is, practically speaking, good for about half your Power Points on any given character)...well, the Warrior ended up with some very efficient discounts. Guys that are paying half as much for their Improved Ability are already paying half as much for their Improved Ability, and in and of itself that's something of a discount Athletes or Speakers are getting by comparison.

2) Again, Walking the Ways would have alleviated this issue somewhat, by allowing those outside the Warrior's Way to choose some of those pricier powers -- powers they don't necessarily require outright to be good at their jobs, but that are good for most Shadowrunners -- and getting a more versatile discount. If an Athlete or an Artisan or whoever really really wanted a discount on Improved Reflexes, they could've gotten it (and a few other powers, besides), so that for those characters who felt it really fit their concept and their needs, they'd have been able to go ahead and pick it up. For whatever reason, the quality didn't make the final cut, so the end result wasn't quite what I'd initially had in mind when selecting the discounted powers lists.

Thanks for clearing that up, makes alot of sense. The Improved Reflexes is a tad pricy even after the discount given out in 4a, and the improved attributes have always been trumped by muscle toner (In initial investment, potential future investment, and going over normal maximum costs).

It is a shame that the 'extra powers' quality didn't get added in, though I do notice that nothing in the supplement says that you can't walk more than one Way, so you could get access to more powers that way potentially.

Thanks for understanding

No need to thank me (though it's appreciated), Ghost. The chance to offer up a clarification, particularly when it's a book I wrote, are why I hang out here (well, okay, I hang out here right this second because I'm waiting on the rest of a student group to get ready for a second go-through of Edinburgh Castle, so I've got a few minutes to kill).

I'm a big feedback guy, and I'm a big fan of writer interaction (when I'm not the writer, just another fan) -- so the whole reason I still have Dumpshock in my favorites is the opportunity to chat about products and try to offer up reasoning for stuff folks have questions about. As frustrating a place as the internet can sometimes be, I value that it gives me the chance to get near-instant feedback on books I've worked on, just like when I was a fan it offered me near-instant opportunities to ask for clarification or get a writer's reasons for doing something. All in all the feedback to Way of the Adept has been positive, and I think I've been able to clear the air a few times in various threads...so the intertubes are working as intended, as far as I'm concerned.

Someone's gotta do it.

Maybe you could release Walking the Ways as a free followup document?

This would be fantastic. Even just a the draft-text of the quality.

Was there any other cut content, or was that it?

I, too, agree. From what I have inferred, Walking the Ways seems like it would be a great optional rule.

So in effect an optional rule to an aoptional rule book. Now if this was math, optional would reverse optional, and we would end up with an official rule

Teacher:
"Two negatives make a postive, but two positives never make a negative!"
Student:
"Yeeaah . . suuree!"

So I couldn't finde a definite answer. Do you get a cost reduction for every level of a power or for the total sum?

If I have imp. reflexes 2 would that be

a) 2,5-((2,5/4)+(1,5/4)) = 1,5

or

b) 2,5-0,625 = 1,875
?

Me:
"And positive to negative equals burned hair."

You get the reduction from the final cost ofcource.
Your other option makes absolutely no fraking sense at all.

As does sth. like 1,875 on your sheet.

You total up all the power points you spent on powers you've got a discount on. Then, you give yourself back 25% of that, or as near to 25% as you can give yourself and still have something to spend. For a power costing 4 points, like Improved Reflexes II, you get back 1 point. It's the same rounding used for Adept gaesa in Street Magic, or (going back an edition or two) previous methods of discounting Adept powers.

Ahhh... But what is the final cost of a 0.25 Power with 25% Discount? I use 0.18 as the final cost.
But... I actually use fractional accounting, becauase it is easy, and makes a bit of sense.

For simplicity's sake, the final cost of .25 at a 25% discount is just .25...wait and re-tally the discount once you've got enough powers worth bothering with. You can't do anything with .07 power points, so I'd just as soon avoid having to keep track of them. It's not like cyberware where there are teensy little datajacks or what-have-you that you can slip in with that last little bit of power; since .25 is the smallest practical measurement of the cost of an Adept power, I, personally, just keep .25 as the smallest amount I keep track of.

Uhm you're sure its 4 Points? Always thought the table does reflect the total cost. Imp. Reflexes III costs 4 Points then. In your example it would sum up to 8 Points.

Besides that I like your intention and will go with that. Many thanks!

It should have said III, not II. That was just a typo on my part, sorry.

To clarify: Improved Reflexes do not "stack" in terms of cost. You don't have to pay for level I, and then pay the full price for level II, and then pay again for level III. You only have to pay the difference between the costs, if you save up karma and buy new power points to upgrade.

Improved Reflexes 3 costs 4 points.
Make sure you are using the last errata (alhtough it really is outdated A LOT).

Right. I just (for some reason) decided to use the I, II, III route, and then "decided" to fuck up and not type the third I. Sorry for the confusion.

Just got a heads-up that Way went gold-level on sales over on drivethrurpg, earlier today. Something like half of one percent of their products hit that level, and Jason tells me it's just the second Shadowrun pdf-only to ever do so.

So thanks, fellas! I know some folks have had questions about why certain things got written like they did, some aren't fond of a few powers, and that sort of thing, but over all the feedback I've received has been positive; and the mixed reviews are even more valuable, because it tells me things I may have overlooked, shows me other ideas the fans like, or gives me the chance to explain why I wrote what I wrote. The feedback's always tremendous, but going gold is a big help, too, to show my bosses I'm not a total nincompoop when the time comes for my next e-book pitch.

Gold Level equates to how many Sales Critias?
Keep up the great work.

According to a comment on http://adamjury.com/2011/pricing-for-niche...ctronic-titles/ gold is 500 sales for RPGNow.com, now Adam also says that the metal counts are different for RPGNow and Drivethroughrpg, its not clear, to me, if he just means the two sites dont aggregate numbers, or if gold on one site means something different than gold on the other.

Thanks, At least I have a Ballpark Figure now...