A modified handheld Tesla Coil once used for quack medicine and now used for things that are against the Terms Of Service to talk about. Since I enjoy tesla coils, quack medicine, and things against the terms of service, it made sense for me to obtain one awhile back.

Heh... But a Skinlink is NOT a Violet Wand.

This is a modern RPG with huge sections on firearms where the writers didn't know the difference between the difference between a clip and a magazine. Anything they write with electronics or metabolism I'm assuming they have an even lower level of knowledge.

And you're right TJ. A Skinlink is NOT a violet wand. A skinlink is a made up object that can do anything and behave in any way whatsoever, including being better than implanted cyberware in every way. Does making skinlink and trodes BETTER than 'ware make your game better?

Which is still somewhat irrelevant. Whether they know their stuff or not, the rules tell you EXACTLY what they do, and there is no ambiguity there.

Congratulations. You win. Do you mind if the rest of us get on with discussing the problem with the rules and proposing changes to them?

I'm fairly sure that if two people using skinlink touching would cause some kind of problem, it would have been brought up. Just because you assume that skinlink works in some particular way that would have particular effects, doesn't mean that it does, especially when it is contradicted by what is in the books.

I thought this was about ways to improve cyberware, not turn skinlink into joy buzzers.

If you want to limit VR to implants and wires, you can do that. It's a massive change (reversion, really), but many people just loved deckers. Removing skinlink (which roughly exists in 2010 tech already) merely forces people to be covered in fiber; no real reason for that hassle. Increase the skinlink price, if you like.

You'll also have to mess with AR rules a little too, because AR is about 90% as good as VR already (exceptions: rigging, slow-hack, datasearch…).

It is not about winning Suoq. I though that you knew that. As others have said, if there were the drawbacks present that you indicated, they would have been listed in the device use/description. They were not, so they did not exist in the first place.

The inherent problem with cyberware is that it, unlike everything else, comes with disadvantages and limitations.
Now we could remove the disadvantages (throw out essence cost and the first aid rules) and the end results would be predictable. I wouldn't mind an SR campaign like that honestly although I'd throw out the cap on starting as well in such a campaign.
The other option is to start adding the disadvantages back into everything else. Add the glass back into glass cannons. Place limitations on devices. Cripple everything the way cyberware is crippled and has been crippled since day 1.

Interesting... I have never thought that Cyberware has ever been crippled. Oh well...
Oh, it can be more useful, to be sure, but that comes with Time, Money, and Grade Upgrades.

Skinlinks have their own functional profile. Devices must remain in contact or on your person (it works through clothes), and every device must be upgraded with the skinlink (nothing comes with it). Skinlink is cheap, so raise the price a little if it helps your table. It's a convenience issue, though, not a power issue. It's exactly the same as wiring everything together, except without the (boring, unrelated) effort.

You can have an implant that's expensive, hard to change, and costs essence or a skinlinked device that's easy to change, replace, or whatever, costs much less, and does exactly the same thing and you don't see an issue.

That's an implant vs. device issue, not a skinlink issue. At all.

It's just how things are. It makes sense, too: many implants are just implanted versions of 'normal' gear. It's only things that are unique to cyberware that should be… unique to cyberware (and/or bioware). And those items are, by definition, in no danger of being replaced with a device.

Can you give some examples? With all these generalities and obscure quack medicine gadgets, you're coming off like a jittery conspiracy theorist.

Yes. It is. Because it's the skinlink that makes the device better than the implant. Without it the implant is better vs jamming, hacking, etc. The skinlink gives a device ALL the advantages of an implant at NONE of the costs.

You're right. I'm wasting my time and energy trying to talk to people who have a vested interest in the system remaining broken. My bad.

But as Yerameyahu said, skinlink can be replaced with a wire, so no, skinlink really isn't what is at issue.

If you want to handwave all the issues with wires away, from their being obvious to the time taken to plug them in to their ability to catch on things, be broken, etc. you are absolutely correct. Remove all disadvantages and yep, they're just as good as skinlink and better than ware. I agree with you completely. You've convinced me.

Don't pout and spout sarcasm, just give me a couple—hell, a *single*—examples, man!

Honestly, your argument is that wires might catch on things? Oy. I specifically said 'wires are a big, boring hassle', but that's not the same as being mechanically balanced.

The advantage of cables is that they can be used as lanyards.

No. You're right. Clealy datajacks and nanopaste are equal. Clealy cybereyes and skinlinked goggles are equal. Cleally an implanted gun and a skinlinked gun are equal. Clearly an impanted commlink and a skinlinked commlink are equal. I'm wrong. I take back everything I said. A character has no reason to choose the skinlinked items and nanopaste over the implanted items.

A skinlinked device can always be taken away, an implant...well I have to get medieval on you with a damn big knife to take it away, of course you are probably dead at that point. Pretty big deal especially when dealing with more subtle cyber.

Let me give it a try, Yerameyahu...

How about a Smartlink
Glasses with Skinlink, Smartlink, and an Image Link in the Glasses, Linked to a Skinlinked Smartpistol.
vs.
Internal Smartlink/Imagelinks in Natural or Cybereyes, Datajack with Skinlink (Maynot be necessary if you skinlink the CyberEyes), and a Skinlinked Smartpistol...

Cost variance is significant between the External Mods and the Internal Mods. External Mods can be lost, taken, while internal ones cannot. Seems balanced to me, but maybe Suoq disagrees?

Skinlink transmits via the electrical energy of the body right?

I can see some issues with that off the top of my head.

1. Don't wear any armor with non-conductive modification (that would screw skinlink).
2. Don't get hit by lightning (I can see where this might be argued, but think of a power spike going into your electronics.)
3. Don't get hit with water (water really screws up electrical fields by diluting it or something like that) ... and if you are playing in Seattle where it rains quite a bit ... good luck on not getting wet.

You want to find a disadvantage to skinlinks? Alright. The palming skill. Glitches/critical glitches. A pickpocket can still take the device off of you, unless you have it very tightly fastened. You can drop it (savvy GM's might even hold back the complete effects of a glitch or crit glitch until you look for the device on your PAN and realize it's gone, baring an alert that something has left the network, at least). Warez aren't affected by those possibilities, unless you are suffering massive damage and using those rules (which I always have). The Skinlink is helpful, but it isn't the be all- end all you claim it to be.

You want to find a disadvantage to skinlinks? Alright. The palming skill. Glitches/critical glitches. A pickpocket can still take the device off of you, unless you have it very tightly fastened. You can drop it (savvy GM's might even hold back the complete effects of a glitch or crit glitch until you look for the device on your PAN and realize it's gone, baring an alert that something has left the network, at least). Warez aren't affected by those possibilities, unless you are suffering massive damage and using those rules (which I always have). The Skinlink is helpful, but it isn't the be all- end all you claim it to be.

Anyone who can take away your external mod can take away your internal mod. It's MUCH more beneficial to the character to have the mod taken away be external. I'd rather it be taken away than removed with an ice cream scoop.

Do you characters lose your external mods? I can see that on a glitch, but on the same glitch the internal one breaks. It strikes me as a lot easier to buy a new external than replace/repair the internal.

And if you're going to bold my name, bold it right. The "s" is NOT capitalized.

Christ, suoq. Half of those aren't even equivalent (cybergun, really?), and the rest were too pouty to read. I'm going to talk to Tymeaus instead.

Smartlink is indeed one of the big SR3-to-4 changes. The skinlink *is* very handy here, because a gun is something you move a lot. Is it so handy that wired guns couldn't exist? No; wired guns existed in SR3… as a match to the *implanted* smartlink, no less. So, skinlink saves you the trouble of having a wire down your arm, but that's there whether your eyes are implants or not! Again, skinlink isn't the factor.

Maybe that's not the best example. If only someone would give some.

Let's do the implanted commlink. Now, obviously this is an external gadget that got an implanted version, so it's not exactly cyberware *losing* something. So. The implanted version gets the benefit of concealment, DNI, and inside-the-body-ness. The external version… could easily be wired, under your clothing and armor, secured with tape. No difference with skinlink, except slightly less hassle.

Ware doesn't glitch? That's a new one to me.

And as much as having to check in your gear is a pain in the neck. That's not nearly as bad as being denied entrance because your gear is implanted.

But you're right. It's balanced. There's no reason to not take implanted over skinlink.

Implants (at least, things like commlinks or Math SPUs) do not 'break' on a glitch, no. Ever. If the GM does that, he's screwing you on purpose. By the same token, external devices don't either! On a *critical* glitch, there's a small possibility of something breaking, perhaps. Maybe.

Indeed... No worries...

The point is, both gitch. Ware does NOT have a "doesn't glitch" advantage over gear.

No, the point is you claimed 'ware could glitch so that it required surgery. In addition, HunterHerne did not say 'ware didn't glitch. He said 'ware can't be pickpocketed from you, dude!

You might have a point, but for a glitch, I doubt I would break anything. For a critical glitch, maybe, but that would apply to both, as well. "Critical glitch? As you stumble back, your glasses slip off your head, and you end up stepping on them."

For a glitch with ware I would maybe cause it to reboot, losing it's benefit for a couple turns at most, but that does depend on the test, too.

You're right. I would rather have my external mods taken away, too. But, that is certain play styles, and sometimes, characters don't have the option, especially after character creation. Or they have a theme they are playing with. It really comes down to personal choice, which I prefer as a GM to powergaming (I actually tend to punish powergamers as a GM)

Next game pickpocket the skinlinked gear from your players and tell them they don't notice it going away from their PAN. Go on. I dare you.

What is wrong with you? I'm trying to be nice, but you keep literally making things up. I never said they wouldn't notice. HunterHerne suggested it as a *possibility* (not one I agree with). The key aspect here is that they take it away from you.

The fact is you said this: "I can see that on a glitch, but on the same glitch the internal one breaks." That's crazy. And then *no one* said the 'ware was glitchproof.

I also said there would be an alert on the PAN. But, if the device isn't currently in use, there is no guarantee they won't notice. let them make a couple perception checks (one to notice the actual pickpocketing, one to notice the alert as something worth reading) Even if they succeed, the pickpocket probably isn't readily identifiable. Although most runners should have some way of tracking their psuedo-legal gear...

Yeah, I dig. I feel like my 'item stolen!' alert would be un-ignorable, but yes.

Well, think about it like this, unless they specifically set up their system to alert them that an item left their PAN in big flashy letters, it'll be more like the small box in the corner that you ignore on your PC monitor when you take a storage device out of the computer without safely removing hardware.

I just don't agree there. This is anti-theft. I can certainly see how that could get annoying, just like car alarms. And normal people are lax about security vs. convenience. But a shadowrunner?

Hunter has a really good point. Even Shadowrunners don't always think of every possibility, and having their spare set of glasses stolen could be one of them. Or heck, even their gun. I mean, Shadowrunners are to at least some extent vain, and are unlikely to think someone is going to be able to steal their gun without them noticing. Also, not all runners are really technically savy, and may simply not think to set up something like that, or have the knowledge of how to do it.

You also have to remember that it would create a serious annoyance if every time they turned a device off or set it down and walked away, big flashing letters would appear in their vision.

It is only anti-theft because someone happened to steal it. In any other case it is just a major annoyance because you forgot to hit the 'remove this device from my pan' button. Also, thanks to the mesh wireless, something stolen may very well still be connected to your PAN, and setting something up that actually checks the location of all devices on the PAN in relationship to each other would be an enormous hassle (Not to mention require a dedicated agent I believe).

Furthermore, if you are running black trenchcoat, nothing points back at the runner anyway, and most of them get rid of what they used after a run too . .
So they have one more switch, big deal to them, if it wasn't too expensive or had still something pointing at them in big and angry letters . .

"Planned loss" Sounds like a good way to create a false trail.

Do you seriously say that anyone who is willing to either tell you to remove some gear or take it from you is also willing and able to perform operations on you? And in the same time those persons are not willing and able to kill you and drop you in a ditch possibly with some organs missing? This sounds like a very strange world to me.

Good point. A ganger mugging you in the street and a Tamenous guy stripping you of your useful pieces aren't exactly the same thing, and the mugging is a lot more common. I guess in that sense it comes down to play style of the GM, and whether or not it's more Pink-Mohawk or Black Trenchcoat

Much different Situation from you getting cought by lonestar or whatever corp you were running against.
Guard:"Give us your weapons"
Runner:"Built in, i'm afraid"
Guard:"YOUR Problem buddy"

Yeah... one of the reasons I wouldn't get a cyber weapon. And especially not a big one.

I doubt the conversation would take place that way. More likely:

LS/Guard: "Give us your weapons"
Cyberweapon Guy (with licenses, not sure if there are any for cyberweapons):"Here is my Ares Predator and I also have this and that weapon implanted. My commlink starts sending the licensedata now."
Cyberweapon Guy without licenses: "Here is my Ares Predator." *waits for the cops to come closer to rip them to shreds with his spurs*/*hopes that his betaware will not be detected*

I just checked, all cyberguns are restricted but all cyber melee weapons except for the shock hand are forbidden

Same goes for mages actually.
Since there is NO WAY to stop a mage from casting, he either gets a bullet to the back of the head or he gets drugged into oblivion and kept in a coma.

Magemasks are pretty good at stopping casting... can't cast at what you can't see...