Actually quite doable , when you don't have to worry about essence.

second hand cyber is awesome really.

Oh it so is, i was gonna say that ware line-up is doaple with less then 200K and then i remembered the sad fact that you can't get cultured bioware as used

You can't cast magic though contacts/glasses. It's also nice to know that you have a displaylink and a camera without anyone being the wiser.

That character was clearly not a Mage. I can see the argument for a Mage.

Displaylink is easy enough to accomplish with contacts. It's also doable with DNI.
As for Camera, you have several options. Your commlink comes with a camera, you can have an attachable sensor package that has a camera, or Imagelink on your glasses gives you effectively a camera.

So none of those are real serious reasons.

Imagelink Does NOT give you a camera... It allows display services only, not recording services...

That's not really possible, because it has to be able to display things in the right position where you are looking. It displays medusa hair, or ARO enhanced clothing of people you are looking at.

ANd all you need for that is a commlink and imagelink.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein is right, an imagelink indeed is only capable of making data visible to the user. this data can be the videofeed of a camera. The camera is not included. In Cybereyes it can display the data from the cybereye camera, as a cybereye is a camera with a DNI so that your brain can process the video data. Glasses or other optical devices it can only display data from a camera as well. unless the device has a camera installed you need an externeal one. I don't know what you want to say with medusa hair. Displaying the AROs in the correct location is not done by a camera.

You can't display the AROS in the correct location unless you can tell where the correct location is. To do that, you need video input for the commlink.

Still doesn't mean that a camera has to be involved.

Think of it this way, your commlink is creating a map of various AR items based upon spatial data given to it from various external sources. Some of that data would be omni-directional broadcast but some of it will be overlays of specific objects or items.

The goggles, image-link, etc are just displaying that AR data in the right spatial location in regards to other fixed and moving points. All that you need to maintain relative positioning would be some sort of pointing device that indicates the relative position of the head or eyes.

That doesn't need to be a camera indeed a camera would be a bad mechanism (too much extraneous data) but could be done with a variety of low bandwidth mechanisms. Basically you just need to tell the commlink that my head is in a specific orientation and my eyes are focused on item X.

If you've some of Gibson's more recent stuff, he kinda covers a primitive version of AR style overlays with the locative art in Spook Country.

This may be one of my new favorite Shadowrun examples.

It's fascinating to realize that cameras can capture video (SR4A 332), cybereyes have eye recording units to capture video (SR4A 340) and you can implant an Eye Recording Unit (SR4A 340) to record video but goggles, glasses, contacts, monocles, binoculars, scopes are all unable to record video, even with the help of a commlink, despite all of them having video input, video output, processor, memory, and signal.

I think, technically, smartguns can record video through the installed camera, but that's it's own can of worms.

that has always struck me as weird Suoq, and I always play that Glasses, goggles, and the like have vido input.

The thing is, if Contacts can have Vision Magnification, and Vision Enhancement, (which are camera upgrades) how can they not capture video?

I assumed that everyone played that all the imaging sensors capture video. Cuz anything else would be willingly dumb.

I think that people would still get cybereyes/ears because of the built in capabilities. I mean, even if you only get rating 1 for flare comp and smartlink you can get a cyber safety so nobody can take and use your guns against you:




This is true. Here is something everyone: If you have smartlink contacts what do they do? I mean they can't have THAT much computing power. They take up 3 capacity in an eye, but only take up on slot in contacts.

I would like it if the following was possible: If you have a smartgun, ImageLink, and a commlink with DNI, then you can run a program on the Commlink to act like the Smartlink cyberware system.

An Imagelink is not a Camera...
I am pretty sure that you can put a Camera in A Pair of Binoculars, a Monoular, and a Scope, as these can all be Handheld Sensor Units. As for Glasses or Contacts... NO. Goggles, I can see, as they too can be designed as a Sensor Unit. Had a set of Goggle based Sensors in the Gulf War, in Fact, that were just that. But they were not goggles.

Why?
Is a Scope a Camera? Not Inherently...
Is a Microscope a Camera? Not Inherently...

They are not only Camera Upgrades though. They are also Vision Upgrades. You do not need a camera for either of them...

@sabs
You are right, it was my mistake. Sometimes there is this non powergamer in me who thinks a samurai should have those.
He will be taken care of...


@Brainpiercing7.62mm
I do not think the fall behind directly after chargen, but later on.
In Chargen they have all of ther 6 points of essence to throw arround, while an awakend character has to pay for every point dearly(unless you allow initiation and the workaround of getting ware before taking the qulity or ware/magic/ware/magic etc.


Right, lets make this list of stuff you should get through ware.
Agility bonus 3 or 4 through muscle toner (0.6 to 0.8 Essence), Platelet Factories(0.2), Cyberhand with nanohive(lower arm has a better essence to capacity raiting so 0.45)
This is the as less as possible. And even that goes over 1 point of Essence. (If you are not playing with way of the adept you have to get some room for the synaptic booster too.)
Of course you might play a character with only 1 point of ware and have fun, but this won't be better than a mundane soon. (Yes, after 600 Karma with the rule of take an adept power point for each initiation if you like)


I guess this would be a possibility. The other would be to enable mundanes to spend their Karma so it is usefull.

In SR, they are both inherently cameras, yes. Electronics are tiny, cheap, and ubiquitous enough that they'd have to be deliberately crippled not to record.

Or, you know, just do not pay the extra Nuyen for the Camera itself... Gee, No one would think about that...
And no, they are not inherently cameras... Here, Let me show you...



Glasses, Goggles, Contacts, etc are Sensor Devices which can take a Vision Enhancement... A Camera is not a Vision Enhancement (it is a Sensor or Imaging Device)... Thus you cannot put a camera into Glasses, Goggles or Contacts.

If you want a Sensor Device that incorporates a Camera, and you want to wear it, you must purchase a Sensor that will work for such things. Handheld Sensors work well for that Distinction (even if you can wear it)...

However, if we do as you suggest ("you can put a Camera in A Pair of Binoculars, a Monoular, and a Scope"), the recording from that Camera will only record the things seen with that camera's vision enhancements. If we go so far as to allow you to claim goggles are a handheld sensor and can therefore have additional sensors put in them (and personally, I'm not willing to go that far) AND the goggles have vision magnification, the recording will NOT have the benefit of vision magnification UNLESS you also install that vision enhancement in the camera. In short, if you want the camera to record what the device sees you have to purchase the enhancements twice.

Illogical as heck, but as I've already been accused today of trying to apply logic to the rules, that seems to be what the rules are saying.

Worse, if you claim that you can add a camera to glasses, that means you can get a bunch of extra enhancements in the camera's capacity. It's just easier to assume that it's the future, everything can record. The easiest thing is, of course, to assume that you're wearing trodes (in their incarnation as simrig), and you can 'record' literally every sense you experience (as well as pipe any sensory input straight into the brain).

Irion, if that adept goes with Alpha grade Muscle Toner 3, Standard Grade Platelet Factory and lower arm (though leg is the better deal, 2 more capacity for the same price, as compared to the lower arm) and he still has 5.095 Essence left over.

Agreed. If you're adding the camera to glasses the camera can actually have more capacity than the glasses could. If you're adding them to the goggles, the sensor channels of the goggles can be effectively tripled (assuming TJ counts the goggles as one of the three capacity in the handheld device).

Bwahaha - Just found this on SR4A pg 219Not sure if audio from glasses/goggles comes with them or is some mod I haven't found yet.

I'm not sure how (by RAW) you can record with trodes. It makes logical sense that a commlink or something does the recording, but again, that's a rule I can't find.

@KCKitsune
Depends on. A nasty GM might have an issu with footware.
Anyay. Still any further essence loss would cost you one point of magic. Better to get a little extra if something bad happens.

So. Cameras are also microphones, and glasses are also speakers. What a world!

Except that is not what I said Suoq...

I said you can get a Handheld Sensor (with Capacity 3 right?) and it can be a Scope or Binoculars by description, and yet, it is still a Handheld Sensor. I Did not say that an Actual Scope can hold a Camera. You need a handheld sensor for that.

You actually need a Simrig to Record your innate senses, but you can attach it with Trodes If I Remember Correctly. *shrug*

Why would they have an issue with Footware?

Cameras are not Microphones, They are Cameras that can record sound. Small nitpick distinction, but there you go...

I'm missing where the Handheld Sensor is still a scope or Binoculars. What I'm seeing is that a handheld sensor with a camera can be up to rating 6 and a set of binoculars can only go up to rating 3 (and is much cheaper). Binoculars (and scopes) however have video output and as far as I can see, a camera doesn't. Therefore a camera in a Handhold Sensor is NOT a set of binoculars and cannot do what binoculars do and a pair of binoculars cannot do what a camera does.

Note that in SR4A: Imaging scopes do not have a capacity that I've found so far, so apparently they seriously outshine sensors and eyewear such as goggles and glasses.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
I meant shoes. And problems to get the one fitting. Since the art of cyberlegs/arms not really consistant..

Alright, that much might be essential for the gun-bunny... but a cyberarm is usually more effective and cheaper...That is non-essential, and you will find that a cybered mundane character that wants to get 4 IPS actually has frightfully little essence (and cash) left after chargen. Actually.... he might not even be able to get it at all.
No, because I can still buy 4 magic. Of course, YMMV, if your GM is a BC addict. But I'll have 4IPs out of the box, and even though you might be able to shoot such an adept quite dead in IP3 (because his full-dodge won't be quite as good as that of a MBW-freak), it's still quite possible that said adept will nail you in IP4 with some nice wide bursts.

Remove fixed skill caps after chargen, and set them to augmented attribute. It's quite simple, IMHO.

What is a Handheld Sensor?
You can descrine it anyway you like...
I take a handheld Sensor (By the Rules), and then describe it as a High Tech Binocular.
I use the Rules to Enhance My Handheld Sensor with a Camera and a few other Sensors, and then augment those sensor devices with Enhancements, Inclusing Image magnification and Image Enhancement.
Now, My handheld sensor is a pair of High Tech Binoculars with several Rating 6 Individual Sensors.

Now, tell me that the Handheld Sensor is not a pair of Binoculars.

Hint there Suoq... You will lose the argument...

I say your handheld sensor is not a pair of binoculars. It has several sensors, so it's a tricorder. No parallel look-through lenses.

Ahhh... But I am using all Visual Sensors, that require me to look through them... So, A Tricorder Pair of Binoculars... Heh...
Point is, a handheld Sensor can be anything you like, within reason. Saying you cannot call it a pair of binoculars, utilizing the Camera that is installed is ludicrous...

You don't look through a visual sensor. It takes input, you get the output on a screen, imagelink, or through your trodes. I don't know where you're getting the idea that a handheld sensor can be anything. I'm fine with you doing that, because it's not my game, but don't act like you have right on your side. Not that this has anything to do with cyberware.

I'm not going to lose the argument. You're simply not going to listen to it, just like you refuse to listen when I explain that the "S" in my name is NOT capitalized. It's right there on the left and you still don't get it. You could even click it, see the profile, and even have it explained to you if you need an explanation.

A handheld Sensor with a camera is not a pair of binoculars because it has no video output. It has no video output because a camera is a recording device not a display device and there are no rules for adding a display to a camera any more then there are rules for recording video on display devices such as glasses or goggles.

A camera does NOT require that you look through it. It doesn't need that today with security cameras that record and it doesn't in Shadowrun with RFID cameras. It simply records the video and you can view that video on some other device connected to the camera. So, a handheld sensor with a camera is NOT a pair of binoculars. It's a handheld sensor with a camera. If you want to display the video, route it through some device with an image link.

I don't know, a handheld sensor without an attached display of somekind doesn't really make much sense, especially for a camera,pretty much every single handheld video camera today has a display.

I must be doing something wrong so walk me through this.

I believe you're talking about Synaptic Boosters III which cost 240,000 out of your possible starting 250,000 and are 18R, so you have to take restricted gear and my bet is that you're also taking Born Rich just to afford the rest of your gear. That means the Synaptic Boosters III are costing you 48+5+15 or 68 BP.

While Wired Reflexes III still require the restricted gear and take up a LOT more essence, their lower cost is affordable, running you 25 BP total if memory serves.

Help me understand why Wired Reflexes III are a n00b mistake and not a viable option.

They've got those in 2070, they call 'em commlinks. Just kidding, you could certainly put an LCD on it, like a normal consumer camera. On the other hand, there's no reason to assume a SR4 camera sensor is a consumer point and shoot camera, especially when everyone has a PAN.

--
Presumably because you'll have very little Essence left?

I completely agree. However a set of goggles that are tricked out beyond modern comprehension to the point that they can tight beam sound from AR to your eardrums but still can't record video (even with a processor and a ton of memory) doesn't make any sense either so clearly we kicked sense, logic, and reality to the curb long ago.

Exactly: why is it so hard to simply say that all the 'imaging devices' include recording (/output)? Even if they didn't, it's trivial to get the feed from your brain anyway, so…

I agree on that, but I'd rather have 43 BP and not a lot of essence than have the essence and no BP or nuyen to do anything with it.

Personally, I tend towards the Wired Reflexes II path. Assuming I come into the money someday (yeah, I'd dreaming) I can see yanking it for the Synaptic Boosters but there's just not enough BP on a starting character for me to want to pay the extra (25?) BP between Wired Reflexes II and Synaptic Boosters II.

I should probably try to find some builds with Synaptic Boosters and load them into DaisyBox so I can understand why the boosters are better than the Wired Reflexes for those cases.

the real difference between boosters and wired is the essence cost, as well as the visibility to cyberscanners. even as betaware, wired 3 takes up more than half your essence total. long run, i suspect most runners start with wired II and upgrade to synaptic later on(if they live long enough). best option does not always equate to best starting character build.

i kind of miss the old boosted reflexes cyber really. in sr3 they stacked with the synaptic and were a cheap way to get some extra initiative. i suppose they would translate to 1 IP for level 1, +1 reaction at level 2, and a 2nd IP at level 3. not the best ware, and you needed genetech to remove it, but it was a nice option to have. of course, the way tech advances in the shadows i almost expect to see the next version as nanoware.

It would just be nice if there were reasonable tradeoffs, I'm sure everyone agrees. Cost, Essence, power, and then minor perks like concealability, or the ability to be removed. Cyber is meant to be the cheap/dirty corner of the triangle, bio's the costly/clean, … and no, we don't really have the rest of that.

Boosted reflexes were nice, that's true. And generally every sam could afford to get them as alpha at chargen and never look back.

Now I'm inclined to say that a competent mundane sam should always consider Used Alpha MBWII, and hope that his boosted defences let him survive IP4.

The problem is really this:
Adepts get 4IPs, with a fairly hefty investment, and can compensate for the overspecialisation with some ware.
Mages get 4IPs, with a moderate investment (sustaining focus 3, and cast with edge)
Mysads get 4IPs (with two possible ways), moderate to hefty investment.
Hackers/TMs... well, they get VR IPs, and can rig. Even so, the second best hackers are again adepts.

Mundanes get the big fat shaft. Synaptic boosters 3 are the ONLY available ware that gives 4IPs at chargen. And they cost about 95% of your wealth, and are not available used, because someone thought they needed to be cultured. Of course you can stack qualities to enable you to get this working, but basically you are centering yourself around cash optimisation.

That's why I think all the availabilities of the cyberware options should be lowered to 20 or below. While I get that these limits were undoubtedly instituted to increase advancement within play, it just doesn't work like that, in reality.

So describe to me the Myriad thousands of Handheld Sensors out there Yerameyahu...

And you are pretty funny. I have a Digital SLR, and I LOOK through the VIEWFINDER to get a Display of the PICTURE of what I am LOOKING at through the VIEWFINDER. Seems like I am looking through the Sensor, don't you think?

Because the Rules don't say that? Though your Idea has some merit, it is not based upon the rules.

I already addressed the consumer camera (2010) versus sensor camera (2070) question. Still, since you ask, no; you're not looking through the sensor, even with an SLR. I hardly see how it's on me to say what the handeheld sensors look like. What the book certainly doesn't say they look like is binoculars. You could construct something like that, but as I said, there's no reason to assume that opinion is better.

--
*shrug* I get all my recording needs from the trivially-cheap simrig anyway, so it literally doesn't matter to me at all.