Except why would you want to do so?

All this talk about breaking the game actually requires you to want to break the game... *shrug* I just don't see the appeal.

I see it as fun thought problems, like theoretical physics. Amusing, but should have little to no real application.

It's easier to just not let players be snipers, really. The occasional assassination, sure break out the Barret. The rest of the time? Leave it at home, bring a shotfun.

Mafia Master Thrower... "Leave the gun, take the cannoli. You can kill with it too."

Best. Freudian. Slip. Ever.


~R~

Oh, no, that was intentional.

Even easier to let them be snipers, but have some (many) fights indoors. After a couple of times sitting on a rooftop and watching their 25+ sniper dice be completely meaningless, coupled with 10 initiative passes where they say "I keep delaying" they're likely to start re-evaluating their combat strategy. If they don't, then they're doing what they want without being too powerful, so it's all good.

That said, you don't want to leave him high and dry every run.Let him use those dice to cover a door in case people break away and try to make a run for it.

And pray the sniper does not have the microwave radar inside his head and wallpiercing ammo...

Maybe. The targets still get a defensive bonus, at least from the walls seperating them.

Again with the Sniper Talk, and again someone will reference "Smoking Aces".

If he's put that many resources into and the team can engineer fights close to the outer walls, let him have his heyday. The targets are still going to have more armor against him than they would have (brick walls give 12 armor, concrete 16, and they can up that by putting more barriers in the way). The point is not to completely negate sniping as an option, but to make sure it isn't an "I win" button. Even microwave radar and antitank armor in a gun that starts at -3 AP isn't an I Win button, since they're better defended against him than they are against guys inside the building with assault rifles (at least once the surprise is gone).

On the flipside, the guy inside with the assault rifle can easily have fire returned on him.

Mr. Sniper will have a few rounds before the Rotodrones show up with the LMGs loaded with nasty ammo.

Right, it's give and take. Less likely to take out enemies + less likely to be taken out vs. more likely to take out enemies but more likely to be fired on.

don't forget that sniper rifles don't have a minimum range (short is 0-150) so he could use his Ares Desert Fox or Barrett 121 just as good indoors as he can out doors. And because most sniper rifles are SA he can shoot just as many times as the person using a pistol (and takes the same penalties, not greater, for shooting while engaged in Melee) but he is doing 7P-9P damage instead of 3P-6P. Even shooting narrow bursts your average SMG does only 7P and your average Assault Rifle does only 8P with the same narrow burst, but the rifle suffers less penalties from recoil.

Which is why you, as GM, need to be able to be flexible. HAve a few surprises once in a while. Hell, use the prime runner rules to outfit the occasional spider with the same radar, then go to town on the sniper with a specially outfitted interior defence drone that he was working on in his free time. Obviously it can't happen every run or the PC's will just get pissed, but after that first time, they'll consider their options.

(I understand this is unlikely, unless the point of the run is a tailchase where the spider is setting up the run to test his new toy(s), but it could still be fun.)

Bursts in our group are more often used to take away dodge dice, though it depends on who you're shooting at. But yeah, sniper rifles are nasty. In a toe-to-toe firefight assault rifles and sniper rifles are fairly balanced with one another. It's only if you allow constant unanswerable strikes from distant snipers that the problems kick in.

Note that "sniping" doesn't have to mean that they have a sniper rifle. An assault rifle is equally capable of being a sniper weapon (ARs have 350 for long, and -2 is nothing to a dedicated gunman). The ability to do FA and bursts while sniping can drastically increase the sniper's damage output.

Long range in SR4A is -3, but otherwise, I agree. The advantages of the first shot with surprise on the sniper's side, and being realtively unanswerable (for a few shots at least) make sniping very powerful when appropriate.

Just remember to set your AK-97 to 300, because that's how many infidels you'll kill with it on that "Setting".

And a Tacnet R4. Because someone I play with has done this. He fired through 2 concrete barriers (one floor of a parking garage up to two floors above) and ignored the barrier ratings for the target's defense almost entirely.

How did he ignore 32 armor from 2 concrete barriers? Methinks there may have been shenanigans involved.

Of ocurse, to use that radar, you have to be within 100 Meters, which kind of negates the utility of being a Sniper...

Well, since each wall is it's own barrier, you do not add them to determine if the Bullet Penetrates...



A Barret with 9p and AP -8 (APDS) will penetrate a Barrier Rating of 16 Before Net Hits are even calculated. And will continue to do so, as there is no falloff when shooting through a Barrier. (Yes, I know that it is not logical, but at least the target gets the benefit of that Barrier as additional Armor)... In the end, the target still gets his +16 Armor from the remaining Barrier rating of the two barriers (8 for each wall/floor in the example), but there you go.

Sniping is awesome powerful...

Hu?
Does one not get the barrier rating of each and every last single barrier added as additional armor? O.o
So, for 2 walls, it would be 16+16?
Don't tell me only the strongest single wall in a complete building between me and the sniper gets added <.<

You do... But the AP of the Weapon Subtracts from that Armor... So in this case, 8+8 Of course, you could apply the AP only once if you like, but that is not how it is stated. Each barrier is its own entity.

never mind, I mis read. Tymeaus Jalynsfein has it right.

Sort of... Each wall had an end result of 8 Barrier rating remaining... Which, added together provides +16 Armor to the Target's armor rating.

Ninja Edited by Mr. Smileys...

It's right there in the quote you gave. There are two ways that AP affects a shot. 1) it checks itself with the barrier rating to see if you penetrate. 2) it subtracts dice from the target's total armor rating in step 4. -8 AP doesn't equal -16 armor when they try to soak.

What you do:

"If a character wants to shoot through a barrier to hit a target behind it, add the barrier’s Armor rating to whatever armor the target already possesses"

Ok, so two concrete walls adds 32 armor.

"If the weapon’s modified Damage Value does not exceed the barrier’s Armor rating (modified by the weapon’s AP), then the weapon is simply not strong enough to pierce the barrier, and the attack automatically fails."

The DV + AP is plenty for bypassing each wall, so we're ok there.

Step 4 of the combat sequence (SR4A p. 149): "Determine the type of armor used to defend against the specific attack (see Armor, p. 160), and apply the attack’s Armor Penetration modifier (see p. 162); this is the modified Armor Value."

We apply the -8 to the target's 32, leaving 24.

But the combined barrier ratings would be enough to stop the sniper round cold, or am i misunderstanding something here?

There's a hiccup in the rules for barriers stopping bullets. They should total up multiple barrier ratings and then apply AP, but they never say that. So technically you apply the AP to each barrier for determining if the bullet can punch through.

The rules are written from the standpoint of firing through a single barrier, and clearly weren't tested (or even analyzed) using a multiple barrier situation.

DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH! @.@

Very DUH... IMO they should have made vehicle armor and barriers work exactly alike, and specified that you total the armor for all hardened sources, then apply penetration. If you don't have enough DV to penetrate, you don't penetrate.

The way it's written now if you put 4,000 plywood sheets against one another (Barrier Rating 2 each), then your Predator IV's EX-EX bullet (-2 AP) will pass through them all and come out the other end. However, when it comes out it doesn't have enough force left to penetrate a paper cup (because the cup gets +8,000 armor).

Empathy Software/Emotitoys, Grenade Stacking, MRSI, Slow, Hackastacks, Channeling.

oy vey . .

Which is a viable answer to be sure, as I stated above. But it is not the ONLY answer, as you also indicated. The rules are a bit odd here...

Well my runner just lost two feet in each measurement in each room. Drywall, inch of air, drywall, inch of air, dr.... You get where this is going.

No, it's the only answer. The rules say exactly what to do. You use the AP for each barrier to determine if it can punch through, but you only apply the AP once to soak. I'm not sure how I said there were multiple possible interpretations, but if that's how it came across I apologize. The rules, though incredibly unrealistic and foolishly wrong, are pretty clear cut.

Apparently, you and I have different Interpretations of the rules. You MUST assess damage at each barrier, or it becoems quicky irrelevant. Unfortunately, because you assess Damage Immediately, you get stupid results (as I said previously, and you agree with) of a Bullet with infinite Penetration on even medium weight barriers.

The Barrier remaining is only 8 per Concrete Wall. So, thusly, you add +8 to the Armor rating of the Target for each wall. Resulting in a Bonus to Armor of +16.

I already said that you SHOULD likely add them together and then subtract the AP Valus of the incomming Round. Unfortunately, if you DO that, you cannot penetrate the Walls AT ALL and get no effect. You cannot have it both ways.

It is a Logic issue. The Second way is correct, in my opinion (much like yours), but it is not what the rules actually say.

As a Side note... Do you really think you are penetrating a Concrete Bunker at Range? Since there is no way for you to see any targets through 2 Concrete Walls (Barrier Rating of 32) when the BEST option (UWB RADAR Rating 4) only lets you see through 20 points of Barrier Rating. It is a scernario that will never actually be doable anyways...

The Barrier remaining is only 8 per Concrete Wall. So, thusly, you add +8 to the Armor rating of the Target for each wall. Resulting in a Bonus to Armor of +16.

That is not what the rules say to do. You're adding a step. What they say (in the order they say them, though order doesn't actually amtter since the stteps aren't interrelated.):

1) Add the barrier's armor rating to the target's armor.

2) Check Modified DV and AP against the barrier's armor rating for penetration.

What you say

1) Add the barrier's armor rating - AP to the target's armor.

2) Check modified DV and AP against the barrier's armor rating for penetration.

At no point does the barrier's armor rating change in the rules (you even quoted them yourself). You're adding something that doesn't exist and making an already silly situation jump straight to ludicrous. If that works for your game, great. But please don't try to pass it off as RAW.

Tac-Net, AR-Overlay, Smart-Link.
Something on the inside sees the targt, is linked to the shooter via tac-net and the smartlink tells you where to shoot.

The problem you are having is that the last sentence in my quote is not a damage resolution step. It is telling you that if the DV does not excceed BR, then it stops. It is a Reminder of the rules regarding Barrier Ratings, not a Step.

Either way, you and I agree that it should be 2x Rating - Armor (AND thus the 2nd Concrete Wall Completely STOPS the round). But it is not how it is applied. Because if it is, your DV likely does not exceed the BR at that point, and the attack fails outright. In practivce, the remaining BR of each wall is added to the Armor rating, because you cannot add something that has already been penetrated (the original 8 BR from each barrier that is represented by the AP).

No worries though...

I guess we just don't speak the same language or something, because what you're saying is my problem is not something I've never even said. Let's try this a more Socratic way.

I see where it says to add the barrier rating's armor to the target for soak.

I see where it says to compare the DV against the barrier rating (minus AP) to see if you even reach the target.

Where does it say anything about applying the AP to the barrier rating before adding the armor to the target's soak? You say this step occurs "in practice" but I want to know where it occurs in the rules. It looks to me like something you made up.

JM looks to be right on this last part, though. The rules don't say you only apply the remaining BR to the Armor rating, you get the full amount added to your Armor rating when you go to soak. The BR - AP check is only there to tell you if your bullet penetrates the barrier. Once you have determined whether the bullet can get through the two walls, your target still gets the benefit of 32 extra armor from the barriers. Then the target's personal body & armor + total barrier rating - AP is the pool you get to soak with.

Bust-A-Move recon.

Which still gives you wonky effects. Poorly Worded to say the least. And for what it is worth, That is what I was saying it Should do. I have just seen it both ways, and the way I was "supporting", if you will, seems to be the most common I have seen...

Definitely another option, as long as you don't mind Information Guided Firing (Which likely cuts your Attribute contribuition in half, if not more), and still receiving the -6 DP penalty.

Reasoning?
I ain't aiming at the target, i am aiming at the wall that i can see just fine o.O
Everything getting hit afterwards is collateral damage/an oopsie/luck for me ^^

Technically, if you aim at the wall, you hurt only the wall. SR4 doesn't have 'stray shots' or overpenetration.

So . . if you hold up your sheet of paper, and i take my gauss rifle here and i AIM AT THE SHEET OF PAPER YOU ARE HOLDING IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE . . your Face is now completely Gauss-Proof? O.o

By RAW? Yes. The barrier rules are incredibly simplified and almost as incredibly illogical. You also:

- can have a barrier strong enough to bounce a bullet, but that will be torn apart by ten bullets.
- destroy a lead wall with radiation

Nobody ever said the rules made sense.