On your claim: "Civil rights in Shadowrun are not about not being discriminated and ostracized, but about not being shot on sight." Certainly, do you have a quote to back THAT up, right?

The books agree that metahumans are a tad farther than "not being shot on sight" in civil rights terms. They can be middle class corpers, for instance. Or maybe you want to back up your claim that everybody who is not a corp citizen (hint: most SINners are nationals, not corp citizens, check the stats in sourcebooks) has no tangible rights whatsoever?

@Glyph: I'd be inclined to agree with you on that, but the mere fact that spirits can be PCs - and PCs generally are not running a program, but have free will - disagrees with that interpretation.

The way I understand the social system, SINners have all the civil rights the parent countryécorporation gives them, as long as they are on their home soil. If they aren`t, they are subject to international law, and laws of the ruling body they are in, at least as far as internationals go. The SINless have no rights, and could be killed or disappeared without anyone really batting an eye. Most Metahumans fall on the category of SINners, defined on a particular social standing (generally Orks and Trolls in the Ghettos, and Humans, elves, and Dwarves everywhere, with more humans-by-numbers in the higher reaches), and most other species falling to the side (either because they aren`t considered equal of humanity, legally, or because of "racism". Metahumans might be "alright", but most humans would be uncomfortable with something non-human)

Spirits: Can be almost anything. I treat them as curiosities, as they should be. Some are narrow scoped, and will force their values, others will be more open. Two in universe examples are The Wild Hunt, which is a group of spirits which seem to party and enjoy sport, but prefer to be away from the Gaiasphere, so only come when someone performs a very specific ritual. The other is Buttercup, who owns a controlling interest in Evo. Originally, as fara s I can tell, she was playing with people for kicks, toying with them as her playthings. After spending a year force-inhabiting an Ork Male, she changed, and now embrasses what life has to offer.
Spirits can be narrow, but that doesn't mean they can't change like any other character.

The second edition corebook explained quite a number of vampires avoided to kill their "prey" when draining Essence. Vampires needs what, 3.5 liters of blood a week and one point of Essence a month ? Doesn't seem that horrible to me, unless the target is awakened or you are working for a cyberware manufacturer.

I see spirits as beings that can be constrained by the role in which they manifest. Those roles can either be narrow, or more open. In other words, you can be the archetypical wendigo, or you can be a generic spirit of man that went free. For the former, the spirit doesn't necessarily lack sapience, but it is convinced of its role. It thinks that it really is an "evil" spirit formed by a curse caused by cannibalism, so it's thinking will be bound up in that role. A fire spirit that goes free when its summoner dies, on the other hand, is less rigidly defined, so it has less constraints on how it can grow or change. It will still be formed in large part by its summoners attitudes - for example, if the mage typically summoned it in the form of a beautiful woman, then it will be likely to think of itself as female, and be likelier to be an animus rather than one of the other typical free spirit roles.

Actually, it would be pretty interesting, either as a PC or an NPC, to have a free spirit start out as something one-dimensional, such as a wendigo or a valkrie, then start questioning its role, and growing out of it.

I tend to agree with you there.

The compassionate vamire you describe is clearly worded as an exception to the rule, at least in German texts (I do not own an English-language 2E core rules book). But yes, they are said to exist. Then again, so did Twist's sister.

@Glyph I agree with you there. The game mechanics disagree, I think

Twist?

As far as I can tell, there is no limitation on what skills a (PC) free spirit can have, so i don't think it disagrees at all. The spirit can grow from it's original mindset and expand its capabilities to attempt to fit in to a world that it is impossibly alien to.

I said "everybody who is not a mid-level corp employee". Because "class-ism" is a classic cyberpunk theme, for the upstanding white-collar employee a lowly skillwired wageslave is just nothing, an entity whose only value is the ability to provide cheap labor but can be replaced at a moment's notice.

A good deal of information on this is of course in RC, the descriptions of the typical neighborhoods in particular. A somewhat less obvious source is UW, with its chapter on skillsofts and their social impact.

*looks at thread title tiredly*
why has nobody said it yet?
"Wait . . legal vampires? We have those . . they are called lawyers . ."

I'm a little fuzzy on it, myself, to be honest with you...and I wrote that. I was still reeling from my time away from the game and picking up the Runner's Companion and reading about "Infected rights". I think during that process, Dunner asked me to include that. It's been a while, and I've slept since then, so I don't recall the entire process with crystalline clarity.

Basically, "Infected Friendly" can mean whatever the hell you want it to mean. Some (Asamondo) are clearly more comfortable with the notion than others, but to my way of thinking even they're not too hip on vampires and wendigos camping out in their territory. And that's saying something, IMHO.

Doing that right now in my home game, with a Valkyrie.

EDIT: @HunterHerne: Yes, just about any Skill except those from the Conjuring Group. My little, lost Valkyrie is, however, checking out those spirits in the Mojave desert and that new-fangled "Calling" thing the wiz-kids are talking about.

Ordo Maximus is an initiatory society in the UK. They take all comers, as long as they have the cash to pay for membership. It is, on the surface at least, a high-society drinking club for people with an interest in hermetic magic.

It's also run by vampires who want to take over the world. At least, to hear some folks tell the tale, it is.


Asamando. As I explain somewhere else: Comme ci, comme ca. Even ghouls aren't too happy with wendigos, for instance, if for no other reason than disliking cometition for food.


New one on me, at least as far as a dedicated group for loup-garou. There's a much-publicized push for "Infected rights", but I'm trying to put the kibosh on that one.

re: "Ain't whistling 'Dixie'"

Yep, that it in a nutshell.


He's good for stirring shit up. I do hope you like him when the book comes out.


I want them to be scary again, and I'm trying to make that happen. I'm glad you liked my bit of Running Wild. (Of course, I think everyone should like my work, so I'm pleased when anybody says something nice about it.)


It's honestly not that hard a dialect to pick up....

You know, a vampire cyber doctor would make a lot of sense. The people the vampire operate on are going to loose essence no matter what, might as well feed first then replace that lost essence with cyberware while the patient is under. And maybe sell the left over body parts to ghouls. I could see a plausible market, a "legal" market here.

Does Essence drained from a vampire leave a hole?

Yeah, because everone is going to trust Dr. Dracula because he technically works according to the rules (if you implant your cyberware in blocks of 1 Essence cost, that is).


Please do. It's taking the cuddlyness a few steps to far.


Also, Wendigos probably eat them. They prefer the flesh of cannibals anyway (or should, being Wendigos, at least).


Depends on which edition of Augmentation you use. However, there is a cheap-ass (comparatively) essence regenration method in augmentation especially for healing vampiric essence loss. To make Vampires with a harem of willing food slaves a viable character concept, I suppose (it's the only thing that makes sense).

I could see a bit of a push for infected rights, just not a serious one, or one that gains any momentum. Even with the Tamir Grey diaries, ghouls are, for the most part, feral creatures. Also, they stink, they look like zombies, and they eat people.

Vampires are even less acceptable, although I could see a push for vampiric rights coming from the angsty goth crowd that romanticizes the bloodsuckers. I could see some emo kid with mascara wearing a V.L.A.D. (Vampiric League Against Discrimination) t-shirt and bitching about all the vampire-haters on his liveblog.

On the same level as NAMBLA, perhaps. And just about as accepted.

Who'd say Dr Dracula would let people know he was infected? He'd probably have a number of magic wards set up to keep out the awakened types to ensure that only mundanes come to his clinic.

That would be the point of this. a vampire night club 'with real 'live vampires' is going to draw fans and haters. Being legal would mean you could have to be very careful. Popping someone in DC is legal but in Denver it is murder. Just to grab two cities.

...which restores 0.1 Essence/Month. Considering that a vampire loses one point of Essence each month, he needs ten people on permanent gene therapy. I'm too lazy to look up the exact price right now, but we are looking at several Million a year - payments to support the donors and keep them in line not included.

You say that like you never go to your Ripperdoc without an armed escort to ensure he behaves well.


You misremember. Cellular Repair, p. 88, Augmentation. Takes up to 2 months, 15.000/week. Only works on damage done by Essence Drain and Energy Drain. 2 months for 5 Essence amounts to a very sustainable food source for a pampered SR4 vampire.

well,at 15,000 a week, that equals 60K a month. It doesnt say how much essence is healed in how much time, so I'll assume 1 week =.75 essence (given that max treatment time is 2 months) Sp, losing 1 essence per month, he could keep 2 people on therapy and keep them alive, for a mere 1.4 million per year.

if my math is right

Yeah, it doesn't say how fast essence regenerates, because the Companion is so well written.

I'd say, though, 2 months equals 5 Essence, the maximum essence healable. So let's 0,5 essence/week (5/12 actually is 4,667). He'd need one essence per month, so the food slave person would actually regenerate faster than it's being drained if it'd regenerate the whole month. Going by these numbers, we're looking at 2 weeks of treatment for 1 essence regenerated and one essence per month drained. That's 30.000 per month, including, say, a middle lifestyle for the slave person (5000). Makes for 35000 a month, or 420.000 per year. That is totally doable with a small busines you siphon cash off (like a lore shop, or an orichalcum factory). Or even just a good Day Job.

70,000 Nuyen the First Month and 20,000 Nuyen Upkeep per month after that. Per Person... for Revitalization Gene Therapy.
Never mind for the Cellular Repair Gene Therapy, as that has already been covered above.

Yes. It's not viable. Cellular Repair, however, is.

Yep, Already Acknowledged that above... I was responding to the 0.1 Essence Recovery/Month statement, sorry.

No prob, it's a bit hidden. And badly worded, as said above. The numbers in that example are conjecture.

Congratulations. You have won the thread!



You mean, Dr. Acula, no?

It's always kinda amusing when Tymeaus and hermit argue.

Them both having the same avatar is kinda trippy. Like someone arguing with himself.




-k

Heheh... It does keep the world interesting...

Well, I correctly remembered the wrong item. As TJ figured out, I was thinking of Revitalization

Cellular Repair of course makes healing from Essence Drain really easy - which I guess was the intention, just that the author thought of players as the victims and not as perpetrators...


PS: On the other hand, vampire hunters will also love this.

I don't know. The core books were written more or less in parallel, right? And the decision to make the Infected the new PC craze to woo over some disenfranchised WoD players was made at top level ... not saying you are wrong, but the method is so overly cheap ... at the very least, it is really easy to take advantage of.

Congratulations, that bite means your character is irrevocably gimped - well, not totally irrevocably, you can get that Essence back at a rate of 0.1/month.

Just the thing you want to hear your GM say, hm?

Odds are you get it back a LOT faster with Cellular Repair.

I'd buy that for a Dolla, errrr, Nuyen.

re: kiboshing "Infected rights"

Don't expect it overnight. I'm slow, and it's a niche problem in the overall world picture. I'll do what I can, as I can. I've got some plans, though.

There's that, too.

re: my dislike of "Infected rights"

Well, the whole concept was ill-conceived, at best, in my opinion. Far as I'm concerned, it's a publicity campaign that's succeeded far too well for far too long. Time for something to go awry, says I....

Then we find out that they sparkle and aren't really vampires, but are just trying to get attention...

Or went not as well as expected, depending on whether that was meant in-world or meta ... but yes, it is high time for something to go wrong there. Best, start with Hannibelle, the shadwtalker introduced as the mascot of this change.


Any movement is movement.

So we're going to get a vampire public opinion SNAFU a la Russel Edgington from True Blood because some people whined and cried about vampires?

Blech

Just blech.

Play oWoD for all your sparkly needs, dude.

No thanks. Those aren't vampires, they're douchebags.

Well, someone else wrote her up, but she is involved...after a fashion, at least.

*bows* ^^

Because ghoul rights are a totally new addition to SR canon...

Just looked it up for fun, Target:UCAS (which introduced ghoul PCs for the first time and was set years after Special Order 162) was released in 1997. At that time the Renraku Arcology was just an oversized shopping mall, and IRL a guy called Tony Blair became Prime MInister of the UK.

Coincidence? Don't believe it for a second, omae. TONY BLAIR WAS BEHIND THE ARCOLOGY SHUTDOWN. NEW LABOUR WAS JUST A TOOL OF DEUS.

I think there's a difference between Infected rights and Ghoul rights.

I do think the idea of ghoul rights is interesting. Most of the other infected, from my reading, are basically feral monsters and there's not much that can be done other than kill them. Ghouls fill a depressing niche if done correctly: people caught halfway in the transformation between man and monster. They're not monsters (not all of them) but there's not much that can be done to save them and inevitably they're going to start killing people to stay alive. There's some good ground for moral dilemmas there. I think the push for normalization makes sense and can bring the issue into focus for the players but it's the sort of thing that can never occur. The moment there's some kind of solution to the ghoul's man/monster issue they become pretty pointless.

There's basically two other kinds of Infected, basically mindless monsters who are always good for a combat run and will never get rights, or the masterminds like vampires, who really don't need rights and are kinda annoying anyway. I could buy vampires being interesting in SR in a world filled with ancient dragon, IE, spirit, etc conspiracies, they never really found a niche.

Some people are just too smart...


Dammit, where's my black attache case?

I tend to think ghouls have a perfect position in robbing the greater evil of the shedim of resources.

Also, I have a vampire businessman walking around in Amsterdam, offering SINless services to sell away their souls. ("Don't worry, you're not selling away all of it.") I've always liked that classical image. And vampires are in an excellent position to fulfill it IMHO.

And Tamir Grey died, and then there were the 162s and Tamanous, who basically gave metahumanity the finger because Tamir and his merry cannibals were collateral damage in Ares' fighting bugs (and claimed it was totally intentional, disregarding Ares' previous attempt, which included a nuke, something that usually destroys entire cities). Hannibele was introduced as a change from that, a "good ghoul" who is not only highly ethical and morally better than you, but also noninfectious since born ghouls are not infectious anymore.

Which was my point. Which you totally missed, again, and tried to distort into something you can disagree with, again. Where is your quote for your claim on civil rights in SR, btw?


That's only the lucky few among them. For the rest, it's feral monster. At least, it used to be before SR4. Actually, vampires fit that hat far better. they're less infectious, too. By the (argh) SR4 rules, vamires have a lot easier time to live in a socially tolerable way than ghouls. Sad but true.

I've yet to see an ethics lecture from Hannibelle - given that she works for Tamanous, she'd be a poor lecturer anyway. And her biography I'd like to see myself...


Already responded to that. Which you totally missed, again


Hmmmm, odd. Just a few lines before you had this to say about those things which are feral monsters but for a few lucky ones:
And Tamir Grey died, and then there were the 162s and Tamanous, who basically gave metahumanity the finger because Tamir and his merry cannibals were collateral damage in Ares' fighting bugs (and claimed it was totally intentional, disregarding Ares' previous attempt, which included a nuke, something that usually destroys entire cities).
Which is at least closer to the real deal. The idea of ghouls as mostly just feral, mindless monsters was already passé as of Bug City.


Only if one ignores the somewhat antisocial aspect of draining live people of their souls...