First, a small preface, if you excuse me for the high rhetoric. Our group have been playing SR4A for some time now, but not too long to consider ourselves fully proficient with rules. Questions like 'is it intended to work like this?' arise more often than not, and it's hard for us to answer these questions without any aid from more experienced players.

I don't want to start a new thread for each question, mainly because dome of them will probably be answered in one-line post and others had already been discussed, and also because there are just so many of them, that I'll be branded a spammer for sure. So i'll just use this thread to post any questions we have.



First question is about Drakes. I have read threads dedicated to them here and most of what I read only confirmed my own impressions about the metatype. But, still my question stands. Are Drakes worth anything? Given the stats, they are mainly intended for physical characters, but fluffwise I always thought of dragons and dragonkin as more magical folk. Drakes get Magic 1, but if I'm opting for Latent Dracomorphis (which is a great idea by itself - nothing beats a scene when a character turns out to be a dragon), this 'free' point is lost, as I get 'Magic 1 or keep your own', not even '+1 to Magic attribute' for my mage. Hardened Armor rocks, but it's only four points - not much, and only in dragon form, which means you can only tear and rend - no fine manipulation.
All this makes a good Drake out of Troll Adept... But out of anyone else? What am I paying 65 BPs for? And in case of Latent Dracomorphis, 120 Karma. Seriously? I can hardly imagine a game not lasting a year or more where character would have that much Karma, and then while he piles it up, other charactes will buy themselves new shiny skills, which will create a serious rift in character powerlevel. I doubt Drake bonuses would do anything to mend this rift.
Are Drakes working as intended? And if not, are there any suggestions how to make Drakes more point worthy?
Also, is there a summary of what drakes really are and how they came to be (back in the previous worlds also). I know about dragon-servant theme, but want to be sure we aren't missing any important pieces.


And some questions about magic.
Do Spirit categories mean anything when tasking said spirits? For example, I have Manipulation spirit of Fire. Can I order it not only manipulative task (what's that, anyway?), but also protect me from harm or outright destroy something? I've read through the conjuring section and can't find any real restrictions other than fluff. Am I missing something?

Also, am I right assuming that Shadow Spirits and Wild Spirits from Running Wild are considered to be Free Spirits when summoning/binding them?

The other question is about Combat mages. Are they a viable option when party has access to wide range of weaponry? And by saying 'combat mage' I mean stereotypical image of a fireball-totting spellcaster with specialization in Combat spell group, Combat-oriented Spirit Mentor, etc. I dislike the idea altogether - mages are more capable in SR than you average flamethrower, namely Manipulation and Detection spells open so many possibilities, it should be a punishable crime not to use them. Not to mention spirits. But also there comes a matter of Drain and necessary Magic rating. For example, to be on par with, say, rocket launcher, a mage must have a Magic at least of 8 and cast on full overbleed. Now he deals 16P base damage, but it comes packed with 13P Drain (if we speak about Fireball). And mage will never have the advantages of bursts, suppression and the like.
Again, am I missing something, or pure combat damage dealers are redundant and too costly to make?


Edit: sorry for the typos. Tried to catch tham all.

No, drakes are not 'worth it'. Be sure to Search the forums for previous discussions of why. It's a rarity tax/bad rule. *shrug* Dragons are lame.

You have a Fire spirit, that's all. The category correlations don't really mean much, if anything.

It *is* illegal to use those spells, and yeah, a rocket launcher is better. As in D&D, utility spells (and spirits) are the real power (though Stunbolt and Powerbolt are very handy—*direct* spells, not indirect). You want illusions, mind control, etc.

Done that and that's why I'm saying that I was only reinforced in my assumption that as much as cool the concept is, the numbers just kill the whole idea.


Ok, let's change the wording of the question a bit.
If, say, I need to make an NPC combat mage and I want him to be if not of terrifying power, but at least fearsome enough for party to be afraid of him, what would I need to do?



And one more question.
Are Blood Spirits good for anything save depleting the Drain from Invocation/High Force Spirit? Invocation suggests it should be used on combat spirits, most of them already have Fear and Natural Weapons, Essence Drain is good almost only to sustain itself and losing greater form power almost exclusively means Blood Spirits should be Guardian Spirits

Drakes blow chunks.

Spirit categories matter for using bound spirits to assist with casting that type of spell, but don't matter for anything else. It rarely comes up, but it's not totally unimportant.

Yes, they count as free spirits.

Blood Spirits are honestly not super impressive in my opinion, and really it's an NPC only option anyways. Blood magic is generally more good for being all DARK and SPOOKY than actually being all that effective.

Combat Mages are good, but not like you'd think.

First, rocket launchers blow. They scatter way too much and fade way too fast.

Second, rocket launchers are super obvious. You can't just walk around with a rocket launcher all the time.

Third, Indirect combat spells are a niche spell useful only for fighting drones and for AEing around corners. Stunbolt and Stunball are the power spells of the combat mage, because they are resisted with only Willpower+Counterspelling and don't do too much drain.

The balance with combat mages is this: a good combat mage will be less effective in a stand-up fight than a good street samurai, because both of them can one-round the other but the street samurai has an easier time jacking up their Initiative score. The combat mage has 3 advantages:
1) AE. There's no terribly effective nonmagical AE in shadowrun, chemical and splash grenades are not half bad but are nowhere near as effective as Stunball.
2) The mage gets plenty of useful stuff aside from blowing things up more or less "for free." If you make a badass combat mage, you can then spend a few more points to pick up a bunch of spells good for things besides blowing people up, and Assensing. Likewise, if you make a mage for other purposes, for 6 points you can pick up Stunbolt and Stunball and be plenty effective in a fight - not as good as a dedicated combat mage or a street samurai, but good enough, and you didn't pay much for the privilege.
3) Spirits. Spirits own pretty hard, and have a plethora of useful non-combat applications, as well as being able to summon spirits that are very good in a fight.

Latent Dracomorphis Sucks (ImO ) as you need to save 130 Karma just for a few physical attributes.
You should also choose an awakened Char and these need all the Karma they can get and its (also ImO) impossible to save these 130 Karma

Welll, Drakes themselves on the other Hand might be worth it....
If You know how to gather Synergy Effects
(I'm playing a surged Fomori Drake mystic Adept she has granite (Jade) skin and mystic armor)
or If You want to play a really unorthodox/extraordinary Char
(She is 15 Year Old Vietnamese and the Daughter of a Rice Farmer that spent the last two Years in a buddhistic/Shaolin Monastery where she was enclosed when she Surged until she was discovered by Perianwyr (whom she calls Uncle Peri)
This Character has to be MinMaxed a lot and she still starts lacking a lot of things (CHA 1,LOG 1 and Edge 1)
but I think its worth it if You give it a try
A Drake is a "longtime developement Char" thats needs at least 100-150 Karma to ....blossom fully (depends upon the Char Concept.Mine is a Wushu-Wujen)

with a traditional vietnamese Dance
Medicineman

AFB but don't all the drakes come with two or three +2 attribute boosts? There's 40/60 BP right there. Add in the other abilities and it's not so bad.

It really, really is that bad. It is terrible in fact. You pay a huge amount, you only get the boosts in drake form (which locks out your ability to use gear, armor, etc), you are dual-natured which is very dangerous, etc.

If you really, really want to be a dragon SO BAD then go for it, it's just seriously suboptimal.

Ah, didn't see it only applies to dragon form. Yeah, that sucks.

Easiest fix - agree a reduction in cost with your GM.

Or just apply the stat Boosts to both forms... Easy peasy...

Thanks for all the answers!
I think we'll go for houseruling Drakes if need arises. But maybe that's just how they should be - Threats2 and DotSW depict them pretty much as killing machines, so maybe toning down the cost will do. And I think I got Combat Mages. Less Fireball, More Manaball )
I have a bunch of new questions (and couple of old ones )


Am I right assuming that Shadow Spirits and Wild Spirits from Running Wild are considered to be Free Spirits when summoning/binding them?


Are Blood Spirits good for anything save depleting the Drain from Invocation/High Force Spirit? Invocation suggests it should be used on combat spirits, most of them already have Fear and Natural Weapons, Essence Drain is good almost only to sustain itself and losing greater form power almost exclusively means Blood Spirits should be Guardian Spirits


I can't get the idea behind Essence and Magic correlation. If my Essence drops by a point, I lose a point of Magic, that's easy. I can buy it back, that's easy too. But what about maximums? I read that maximum Magic can't be higher than Essence rating. But it doesn't make sense because by RAW Initiation won't do anything as you can't have more Magic than Essence. Can someone clear this out for me?


I've read the summoming/banishing threads and I got a question. If I need to dispatch of a spirit - a watcher or a bound spirit - quietly, so that his conjurer doesn't know that the spirit was killed/banished, what should I do?


Also there are two questions which have no connection to game mechanics, but they are bothering me a lot.
First of all, is 2XS the JackPoint poster connected to Dirk Montgomery?
And secondly, is there any reason why Aztechnology is evil save for the sake of being evil?

The max is Essence + Initiations, which is the point.

It's impossible to get rid of a spirit without the 'owner' knowing, AFAIK. They have a bond. AFAIK.

… Cuz they're evil. That's what evil people do. Spiral argument, go!

Ok, that makes sense, thanks


Makes sense too... But it makes spirits the ultimate defence. If it sits and watches, it sits and watches and tells what it sees/reacts to the intrusion. Even if it gets killed before it could sound the alarm, the mage (who could be anywhere) gets his spider senses tingling.


Can't buy this one. Other corps do no less, sometimes even more evil than Big A. MCT trashes technomancers, for example. S-K is headed by ZOG (How more evil can you get?!). There are bugs in Ares. And still only Aztechnology get the brand on the scale of rulebooks. I think there are more evil aztechs in all books than all other evil guys combuned. And what's more, there's no reason for them to be evil. Why do they want to get CAS and Amazonia? Because they are evil corp. Why they practice Blood Magic? Because they are evil corp! That just can't be!

Basically your magic can't be higher than Essence + Initiation.
Say you have Magic 6 and Essence 6, later in life you decide to put some few wares on you, diminishing your Magic to 5. You can't raise your Magic back to 6 unless you first initiate and then you may increase your Magic back to 6.
Also, you can't have more Initiations than your Magic.



Yes, distract the spirit with something. For watchers any shining object might work. For other spirits, it can be tricky or even impossible to distract them from their duty.



Their corporate masters are involved with the events of the fourth world described in Earthdawn. There are rumours that at least one Horror-corrupted Feathered Serpent is involved with Aztechnology.

Just FYI, you can make drakes work.
I had one that was a stealth/infiltrator that worked quite well. The challenge was not building an effective (meta)human character and instead focusing on the attributes that the drake had that made the drake good:

1) Only use Eastern drakes (their hands). They can still use guns in dracoform.
2) Armor, if you've got less of it in drake form than human, you're never going to dragon-out. Do be aware that "Mystic Armor" (innate) and "Mystic Armor" (adept power) are not the same. The former gives you "astral armor" the latter gives you "generic magic armor" (they stack, but not in the WTF awesome way). Work out with your GM how normal armor stacks with hardened armor.
3) Magic, make them a mage or mystic adept (pure adept will only hurt you)
4) SURGE that beastie, find a metagenetic quality that will aid the drake in some fashion (chameleon skin, dermal plating (granite shell?), etc.).
5) Dual-natured only effects their drake form. If you're getting beat up astrally, just change back. Alternatively, you can fight back as a drake using unarmed combat (a skill you should have and specialize (claws|bite)).
6) Get Exotic Weapon (Breath), because you'll want it (who else gets line of sight fireballs as a skill?)

Awesome points. I just want to add that drakes can select any element for their breath weapon, and Sonic breath weapon is AMAZING. Target gets no armor, and if you do boxes of damage that equal or exceed their willpower they are paralyzed with the nauseated effect. Also, for a drake that likes to cause mass devastation, BLAST element makes for a Gnarly breath weapon.

You absolutely MUST have either a good armor spell or mystic armor. It stacks great though, and since the drakes mystic armor works on the astral, a projecting drake is fierce in astral combat.

They are not as pimped as some other race choices (like Vampires) but are definitely worth the points. You can make a drake build that is decent, and with the right physad build you can be devastating. Not to mention all the flair of being able to turn into a freaking dragon and eating people.

Also, FLYING. You can fly at twice your run speed. With Celerity (if GM allows) you can be flying very fast. Add a spirit with movement power and you are like a fighter jet with infinite shots of magical breath weapon!

Combining drake with orc or troll builds is great for physical stats. You can be a real killer in melee combat, and huge and intimidating too!

Edit: I almost forgot, you can make a drake Adept and then get the optional metamagic (again, if GM allows) from either Street Magic or Running Wild which allows drakes to learn detection based spells when using dragonspeech. Spells without being a mage, who could ask for more!?

As a GM I'd not let a drake get a sonic breath. I'd restrict them to standard elements: fire, acid, ice, electricity. Others would be conditional (smoke, I don't see an issue).
Also remember, it takes karma to change it, it's not free. But it does open the option to have whatever you need for this run (it just costs 3 karma!)
Note: I don't remember the cost listed in that optional rule.

Sorry I've been gone so long. I was busy.


Yes, and you can only either use the Calling rules from Running Wild or the summoning rules for free spirits from Street Magic (needing their formula and all that), not the actual Summoning Skill.


Invoking is actually an amazing Metamagic to use for any spirit (especially your Free Spirit PC groupmember...). That aside, being able to give a Natural Weapon and Fear to any spirit you want without taking an optional power makes Blood Spirits much more dangerous.


It has to do with their use of Blood Magic - other than that they're only as evil as all the other Megas.

15 karma to change it. As a GM I would allow sonic breath... its basically a magical shout. Also, I would let characters choose their starting breath... why not?

Ah, 15. Expensive to do all the time.

And yeah, it is, but Sonic damage is so broken anyway.

My mage is picking it up next. Flavorname will be "Screech" (he's a burd).

You can't surge drakes. You have to choose a standard metatype, a metavariant or, with GM approval a non-metahuman sapient.

What, exactly, prevents a drake from taking SURGE Class I?

(For reference, when I did it, I picked up chameleon skin and unusual eyes: drakes, IIRC, already have unusual eyes as far as metahumans are concerned, all I did was make them strikingly purple).

The book specifically says SURGE is not exclusive to metahumans:

As far as I know, that not the whole board. And some of them were eliminated - Darke as part of Harlequins Back, Atzcapotzaico in 2064 and I remember Augmentation mention that two dragons (?) are leaning the house. That leaves only the rumored corrupted dragon and maybe some leftovers. So it's hard to believe that the whole mega would do evil for the sake of evil. I just don't see a reason for Aztechnology to, for example, invade CAS. What's there for them that needs conquest? After all, as any corp, Big A needs client first of all, so that the corp can live long and prosper.



Thanks for the points! I figured as much, but it gets the character in rather narrow niche. But that's probably intended.
Btw, would casting Armor on Hardeded Armor make the bonus Armor hardened as well?



Can you expand Invoking a little? I know that Invoking is great for combat spirits - they get physical boost. And some greater form power rock, but is there anything I miss?
But Blood Spirits still don't look that terrifying to me. In story texts they are like 'omg! teh blood spirit! we are doomed!', but mechanically I don't see that much of horror. As one russian joke says, 'yes, horror. But not the HORROR! HORROR! HORROR!'

It also suggests SURGEing critters to make more interesting challenges that aren't automatically known to well read Players.

Some of the critters are specifically said to be SURGEd forms, like the Demon Rat is to the Devil rat.

Exactly. Also, even if it was, drakes are sufficiently metahuman.

There is that, too.

While it is not spelled out, a lot of people inferred that Aztechnology is in War with Amazonia because they want something there. The locus that is possibly feeding the accelerated growth of the rain forest.

I thought that amazonian forests were growing due to their blood ritual. You know, the good blood magic, the kind that elves, dragons and amazonians use, not the evil one, which Big A uses

Still, what's the point of going for that particular locus? Spy Games said that Aztlan needs Denver for it's ley lines, and it makes sense - they are producing magical goods and stuff. But that doesn't mean conquest too. All they need is to get their sector back. The worst scenario I can imagine is that Aztlan wants to be new Thera, the wand to build their caers, admitting only aztlaners into them, then bring in the Horrors and rule the world afterwards. But do they need that much land for that?

Did Hitler need the entire Europe and Russia for the germans to live in?
Like I said, perhaps there are evil geniuses leading Aztlan and Aztechnology that do evil just for the Lulz?
Perhaps Amazonia is a source of True Wood and True Water.
And if nothing else works for you, perhaps the guy that first came with the idea of Aztechnology being evil was just a bigot with an axe to grind against mexicans.

And I was waiting when would Godwin's law be invoked
Don't want to steer the discussion into that direction, will only say that post-Awakening Mexico is nothing like post-WW1 Germany.
But I'll probably will have to bear with evil lulz. Or change the setting a bit

Heh. It's just sort of a dumb question: they're evil by definition, so therefore they do evil things. They're not evil *because* they like Blood Magic, but vice versa. Yeah, it's a literary, arbitrary definition of their 'character', but it is who they are. At least, as far as we know.

And that's what's bothering me. I just don't... like the lack of internal logic and logic loops like 'I do evil things because I'm evil and I'm evil because I do evil things. For no real reason or purpose.' But that's certainly my problem.

No.


LoS attacks become LoS(A). Harder to Banish. More Optional Powers. Greater Power, as you pointed out. Increased physical stats.


I guess, but consider this: They can use their Essence Drain to boost their own Magic Rating, increasing the dice they have for all their Powers and increasing the base DV of any attacks they have (such as their free Natural Weapon and any Elemental Attacks they may have).

One more thing. More of 'are we doing it right?' qusetion.

Imagine the scene. Two runners, one fresh 400-point heavy augmented orc and one 400-BP plus some 50 Karma moderately augmented elf ninja ambush three yak elites fighters (Red Samurai stats from SR4A). For the sake of simplicity, let's say their car is rammed by another car (in the Barrens, so no quick response). The ninja literally jumps atop the yak car, the orc is some 30 metres away, behind cover. One yak rolls from the side door, the other one through the roof hatch. Then happens the strange part. The roof yak exchanges a few shots with elf and goes down to narrow long burst. The other yak goes down after two bursts from the orc (both using Ares Alpha). The elf jumps down into the car to snatch the person they need to extract but catches a long burst from the third yak instead. Some edge spending later the elf is almost down, but here comes the ork. He runs to the cars, rushes in and punches the third yak to death in two attacks. End combat.

Of course, yaks were rolling pretty bad, but the whole scene left me a bit puzzled. I wasn't expecting this duo to get down three Red Samurai so casually. Of course, the orc is pretty optimised (I hope he is, because I wrote the statline for the character ) and the elf is down after Adrenaline pomp wears off (the stun damage would bring our ninja right to zero boxes left on both tracks), but still it seems to easy. Are we missing any crucial details or starting characters can take on Red Samurai and win with almost no casualties?


And while i remember, the riggers. More likely the drones.
I've been reading the big book about them, and it seems that if the drone master isn't going to jump into them, the drones are fully autonomous. Is it right? So, given money to buy best programms and time to tune the drones to respond to the right commands, any character can become a drone master, with little need to jump into the drones?

Is it 'no' to both points or only to last one?


Yeah, LoS(A) is what I forgot. Quite nasty, especially for some powers.


Ok that's what I've been missing. Essence Drain boosts Magic?

First off, the Red Samurai are not equipped properly if you just took them from the books.


Have you seen my drone thread?

Trying to hurry before work, so I didn't edit it properly. The armor stacks, but doesn't become Hardened. Talk to your GM about how Hardened would interact with Normal Armor.


Now you're thinking with Portals.


Page 294, SR4A, last paragraph on the page.

Thanks! Will look into it.
There are just to many rules to remember at once -_-

The lack of Edge on the guys also bothered me. You probably meant this post instead. Thanks for pointing to the thread! It's useful beyond praise
But other than stats, is there anything we could miss? I know my depiction of the scene is scetchy at best, but what will a bunch of these guys do if they are ambushed? As a routine drill, for example.


Seen it, but haven't read through it yet. will do now.

Mooks do not have individual edge (unless they are important enough to the story to warrant such), they have Mook Edge, and in the Red Samurai's Case, it would be Edge 5 (IIRC) for the Group...

I feel that Red Samurai, being the elite force that they are, should be personalized NPCs, anyway. And on par with the runners at the very least in what comes to points.
Human opposition seems to be really lacking in the books, anyway, while there are insanely strong critters (when played right) thanks to the powers they have.
For that reason, I just have stat blocks pregenned for several kinds of opposition the runners are likely to encounter (Red Samurai are not in the mix since I don't believe that when a corp knows about you enough to send those guys, you stand a real chance to survive the whole gig).

What make you think you can be the very best, like no one ever was?
*also: "tham", but that's not the important part.

I agree with Fatum. Red Samurai and Ghosts are considered elite, crème de la crème, so I think they should have personal Edge. Still, group Edge is fine too, and that's clearly what we've been missing out.


You noticed that!
I thought to fix it, but decided it would look funny
It's still hard to write large posts. I almost feel the text degrading by the line. That means I need more practice.

We've been over this A LOT.
Shadowrun requires suspension of disbelief and a lot of it.
How 1% of the American population even with Magic was capable of taking half the country from the other 99% is something most people can't accept.
Same thing for the first Euro Wars.
The thing is, a LOT of Shadowrun events are the consequence of the rule of cool and nothing else.
And sorry for invoking Hitler, but it was the best comparison I could make.

Don't invoke Hitler, his Great Form is awful.

The fact is that the fictional universe of SR has 'real evil' in it. There's plenty of gritty human grey area, but there are things outside of reality that want to destroy us all; they're evil. AFAIK, the Azzies are dialed in to that, so they're for-real evil, not just 'doing bad things'.

Dunno, liked the gatling guns, personally.

Don't they have some cunning plan with that? Like, their own cairn already built or something like that?

I believe that's the reason they would attack Amazonia.
True Wood and True Water.

True Blood, too?

Neh, if that was the case, they would be invading Cas to reach Bon Temps.
Which reminds me. Does every show with vampires have a city with its personal hellsmouth?
I mean... Just not only Charlene Harris ripped off the World of Darkness, it must rip off Buffy too?

And another question. What's the fuss about Emotitoys? I've read the entry in Arsenal, but fail to grasp their brokenness, which is often mention on the forum.


As far as I remember, Kindred didn't have it. But I watched the series quite some time ago, may be forgetting some things.