When I interviewed people for employment we would occasionally interview people who spent way too much time researching us on the internet. They talked very knowledgeably about things they had absolutely no clue about, feeding us back our own corporate PR and B.S. The result was predictable by everyone except the person being interviewed.

Any information age is also a misinformation age.

I suspect you also interviewed people who did way too little time researching you as well.

Once more, the farley file was an example of what should be a standard AR schematic/file that would assist a face. The claim was that no such thing existed. Much as any other file, it can be misused. Its presence isn't a guarantee of success. Its absence, however, means the face has to work harder to do his job just as a mechanic without plans for the modification or the team who has to work with jammed commlinks.

That's actually not correct, which I think proves my point. The complete answer:

This is a trick question. You can't answer it without knowing whether it has a sling accessory or a sling mod, same for foregrip accessory vs. mod, because they do different things. I should note that your answer is never right, though.

Case 1: both are mods
Foregrip and Sling stack to provide a total RC of 2, Shock Pad is 1, Alpha is 2. But wait - Foregrip and Sling stack, but Sling and Shock pad don't! The answer is 4 recoil compensation provided for any type of fire.

Case 2: Foregrip is a mod, Sling is an accessory. In this case the answer is 4, because sling accessories don't provide recoil compensation (so 1 foregrip, 1 shock pad, 2 alpha). Type of fire doesn't matter this time either.

Case 3: Foregrip is an accessory, Sling is a mod. Foregrip Accessories only add their 1 RC on full bursts. So on a full burst, the answer is 4 (as in case 1). But on any other type of fire, the answer is 3, because slings and shockpads don't stack (so 1 from either one of them), and the foregrip doesn't apply. Final answer: 3 for anything but full bursts, 4 for full bursts

Case 4: both are accessories. Now the sling doesn't provide RC and the foregrip provides 1 RC on full bursts. So the answer is 4 on full bursts (foregrip + shock pad + alpha 2), 3 otherwise (shock pad + alpha 2.

Now that's what I call clear and simple!

Which is irrelevant if you have acces to that information in your Memory. You DO NOT NEED AR to get the benefits of your Farley File. Claiming that it is required is actually pretty funny...

Except for that Always-On Info Web to be useful, you have to actually pause to access it and use it. Not so useful in the midst of negotiations. It CAN be handy, no doubt, but it is not speed of thought access, nor is it indexed for your convenience. And very few people are going to be set up so that it is useful.

Why are you penalizing people for not using something? It is a BONUS, NOT A PENALTY.

The Mind Boggles...

And once you have that information on the sheet, IT IS clear and simple. You will know what your RC is; and then you go from there. Don't you put your RC mods on your character sheet? Everyopne I have ever played with does. It has never been a problem at any table I have polayed at.

Nope. That may happen in places, but I've never actually experienced it.


I'm sorry, but I don't see that. I don't see that in fluff. I don't see that in crunch. And I don't see it following logically UNLESS you have someone else doing real time research as you're talking and feeding you the data and that data feed has to happen though public routing.

What is the source for the data you you claim is helping in AR and why does it need to be displayed in AR and why is the commlink unable to display it to you in AR if the commlink is hidden? I'm sure this is something you've carefully thought out, but since I can't see your thought process here, I'm not coming to the same conclusion as you.

No pause is needed to use emotisoft. No pause is needed to use tacsoft. Yes, to read a full file a pause might be needed. But if all you're needing is cues it becomes easy to have no-pause requirements. Especially as (boggle, but it's fluff as written) the holo can be displayed between you and another and the other can't see it.

Why am I penalizing for not using something. Because according to fluff it's constant use material. For just about everybody the matrix is always on, always feeding info, both useful and spam.

If you choose to remove a tool that everyone else uses, you are at a handicap. It's that simple.

I so disagree that I cannot even articulate it properly. It is not as simple as you claim it to be. If it were, everyone would agree with you, which is obviously not the case.

And AR is not Constant Use MATERIAL. It is constant bombardment of information. Who says that it is useful information? Likely 99% of what you are bombarded with is actually pretty useless. Filtering all that information is likely an issue. As for Emotisofts, they are likely ran by Agents that update the USEFUL information that they provide. Updating a Tacnet takes an action. So if no one is aver updating the tacnet, how is anyone ever getting any information out of it?

I really think that you need to re-evaluate your ideas on AR.

That's what I'm wondering about, too. Going passive/hidden means you commlink will ignore unsolicited connections (an therefore AROs) from the outside, it does not mean that you lose the ability to perceive AR.

As for getting a penalty when not using something potentially beneficial, there is no penalty for not using a smartlink. You simply don't get the bonus.

I think it just hit me. He's attempting to add the Snow Crash Gargoyle Bonus (Hiro buys a motorcycle) without the Snow Crash Gargoyle Penalty (Ewww. You're a freaking gargoyle"). At least that's my best guess right now. It may be he pictures everyone as a Snow Crash Gargoyle.

Well, I'm basing my position on little things like:


and


and


and


In short, I'm looking at fluff as written. That you don't like it is fine - you run your game your way. No problem.

But the world is described as full-time info-feed. That 90% is junk does not stop the underlying fact, nor the fluff as written.

Huh. You know, I hadn't considered it that way, but is indeed some of what I'm saying. And I'm saying it because I've read the fluff.

Since my prior experience with SR was about 20 years ago I don't have the immersion of the matrix of 1/2/3 influencing what I'm seeing. Instead I'm basing solely on SR4 fluff as written.

Everyone has AR on all the time. They get some stuff automatically - how much and how useful depends on their skill and experience and in some cases situations. That's per the fluff as written.

If it's not SR as the old-timers play it, well, I'm not (in SR) an old-timer.

Hey Kirk, hey TJ: we got it. You disagree and won't come to even a minute agreement, so let it go, ok?

But, but...

Well, IIRC Hiro got the information needed to pull a fast one on the seller because he was actively looking for it, not because he was accepting every uninvited spam message

And that scenario is totally normal in my games, when going to a meeting or fast-talking into a corp facility, one of the guys present has a simrig (or just cybereyes + lip-reading software) and the hacker tags along virtually, digging out useful leverage or just telling the head negotiator to haggle harder.

We had that way too often in the last months.

Agreed after my editing.This is where we seem to disagree. What people get, as far as I can see in the fluff, is what other people want them to get. The receiver is "passive" in that they're not actively "asking" for the information. If their commlink is active, nearby nodes can browse their commlink and decide what to send them. From a logical standpoint, it makes sense for upscale blocks to limit this AR spam to "tasteful".

What you seem to be describing is some form of automated data search and browse without an agent and the results of that search being displayed in AR. I'm not seeing that in the fluff. It would be cool, and I can see giving a bonus (or personally, extra info to be used in RP) to someone who has an agent tasked to do just that.

---------

Grinder: If this is making you upset, you have my apologies. I'm trying to come to an understanding because I think there's a middle ground I want to find and can't find on my own.

The problem, as with so many other things in Shadowrun, is that the rules on AR bonuses are really poorly thought out and described. It's basically "While you're in AR get between +3 dice pool and -3 dice pool to whatever you're doing, at GMs discretion". That's not verbatim, but pretty much sums up the rules for that particular modifier. So players always automatically want the best modifier, while ignoring the fact that the GM can apply the penalties at will as well.


Personally, I'd make it so you do a browse+datasearch test to find something relevant to the test you are doing (such as the AR schematic for a vehicle in one of the examples), and what you find gives a +1 dicepool modifier to the test per 2 hits. Penalties for high traffic areas and static would still be GM discretion, because that depends more on the matrix topology of an area than something the player can control. Alternatively you could use the optional rule from Unwired that gives a system+response test, with a +1 dice pool modifier for every hit, but that can allow for some pretty big bonuses on a lucky roll.

I think the most relevant fluff demonstrating what I perceive is example #1, SR4A 218. Sketchy Alex gets some stuff on request, some stuff is autopulled by her system because it's relevant to her circumstances and situation, and some unwanted stuff with which she has to deal. It's the middle one that's the automated search and display example here.

Consider also the example of the repair needed on AR 10. You get a couple of pop-up notices: repair is needed, please authorize repairman and payment.

Now, I think what set everyone off was my suggestion of a general -1 mod if the node is set to hidden. To be fair that might be a bit of overkill. On the other hand I still think there are going to be a lot of unnoticed but ubiquitous feeds that, if absent, hamper performance.

I have no issues with the Fluff, just your interpretation of it.

None of your examples are instant gratification on 100 different channels. Case in point: to preview the music, you need to actually preview the music. Full time info feed does not lead to utility, nor does it lead to INSTANT useability.

All Passive/Hidden modes do is allow you to take what you want, and ignore the rest. You can still have AR access in Passive/Hidden Modes, you are just not being bombarded with the things that you choose to ignore.

Very different from having access to everything all the time, Which is patently not the case, as you STILL have to filter whatever it is you are receiving for it to be of any use.

As for this:


The autopulled data, in the example above, has to be performed by something. Your system does not have the capabilities for that, so it must, by needs, be an Agent. And an agent has to interact (it needs to actually make rolls), has to have parameters to follow, and has to know exactly what you want (requiring YOU to tell it). None of this is automatic in any way.

No worries though...

I don't see anything about any -3 due to not having AR up. There is a possible bonus to be had, but I don't see anything in that section about a penalty.

But she didn't call up whether there would be a concert. She was browsing music and got a popup saying "hey, this artist is doing a concert tonight."

Still, your post clarified where the perception error is. I'm not saying 100 different channels of solid information. I'm saying smart-queue info. It doesn't blindly add info it knows will be relevant to you. It sends you stuff it "thinks" might be relevant based on your previous actions and current circumstances.

I walk into a crowded bar, and my friends Joe and Sally with whom I usually drink are in there. I get an ARO smartbox highlighting their location. Mark and Jack, a pair I know but with whom I don't usually drink, are also in the bar. My "people you know located nearby" ARO pops up a button I can open if I want which will identify them. Note it's an interaction. It doesn't pop a highlight on everybody, just those I cued it to show. It does pop a "more info" button, though, without my requesting it.

(edited to add) In addition, it also sends me the bar menu and price list, the specials based on whatever I ordered last time, some advertiser spam that convinced it I wanted to know because I once drank /this/ on a dare... part of working with the commlink is training the heuristics.

It won't show me everything I need. It'll show me stuff I don't need. However, if I have it I have the option. If I don't, the options that can give me some assistance are gone. I can still find Joe and Sally, and might run into (or avoid if that's my preference) Mark and Jack. It's just a bit harder.

Not -3 for not having AR up, -1 to -3 for having AR up in something like a spam zone (see page 220 SR4A). There's also distraction penalties ranging from -1 to -3 for doing something in the matrix, or a hacker cause cause distractions equivalent to a spam zone (page 225 SR4A).

Ah, my fault for misreading it then, thanks.

No problem, I think someone else WAS using the argument that disconnecting from AR causes penalties because of peoples' reliance on it, so it's not hard to confuse arguments. It wasn't however -my- argument.




Edit: To get somewhat back on the topic of rules inconsistencies with 4th edition, or RAW just being funny: Try and figure out if by RAW there's anyway to reduce a databomb's damage after it goes off (ie find a citation that you are able to use armor vs it), or if a hacker using Black Hammer jams a connection the same way Black IC allegedly does.

Another way to look at the AR feeds, is to go to Facebook, or hell, even CNN, and look for something that isn't the story of the day. It's gonna take you a moment to find it, assuming it's on the first page. Being in active mode accepting all connections is like that. You get hit with everything. Limiting yourself to passive or hidden will filter all that innocuous stuff. To me, it'd be a huge benefit to *not* have all that stuff filtering in. Have an agent set to auto-pull information based on key words during your interaction if you need to, but get rid of all the other crap. Because really, when you're on a run to infiltrate a delta black facility, you really don't need to know that two celebrities just broke up and that the news is reporting an accident 4 cities away. You need what is relevant to your situation right in front of you. Anything more and you've got an AR distraction, not an AR assistance issue.

Sure.... If you are Active Mode. I have no problem with this at all, and makes a ton of sense. In passive/hidden Mode, however, you will still get any of the ARO's from your friends, becuase they are likely authorized, as is the menu and drink list from the club you are at (you knew you were going there, and those are authorized. However, since you are not "Active" any Specials or "Tailored Adds" are likely not allowed through). Not allowing the "Smart Queue" information into your link is not a penalty. Smart Queue Information requires interaction to function; it is NOT automatic.

What you see as "Assistance" many others see as "Annoyances" (one of the reasons I still do not have a Smart Phone or Cell Phone). And even so, it does not penalize you to ignore the "Assistance or Annoyances" that are prevalent in AR. The only penalty you should have is NOT receiving the BONUS. That is not a Drawback, it is a Feature. If you want more info, all you need do is search for it (or have your Agent Search for it). No need to be Active for that at all (unless you are in a place that requires "Active" mode).

As far as the "training your Heuristics" argument goes, that is what Passive Mode is for. It will filter the garbage, and still alert you to connection attempts to see if you want to accept them. Hidden just ignores everything not on your list, and does not alert you to the typical connection attempts asssociated with being in a crowded environment. You will still be alerted if your Comlink is being hacked (asssuming your protocols are set that way and the hardware/software catches them coming in).

Allow me to summarize.

I said AR and its constant input could be a help, so much so that either GMs should be giving the +1 most of the time OR, given that they're not, a general -1 should exist when AR isn't used (with the digressive question as to whether hidden shuts down much of the AR use.)

I was told that there was no way AR could be helpful, with a specific example being to a face - that no possible schematic existed.

I gave a real world example of the farleyfile. There was much babble of how the farleyfile could be misused.

I was then told that there was no fluff where information was presented unrequested. I showed otherwise. Now it's "but that's only in active, and besides it's a distraction."

I am boggled that when you ask for a point, I raise the example, and you say basically "well that doesn't count."

The point Grinder made is still cogent. We disagree. We are going to disagree. At this point we're just repeating the disagreement from different directions.

I do think the general -1 is probably excessive. On the other hand I still think most GMs don't give +1 for AR enough - at least, based on what I've seen and read so far. I can't - WON'T - fix it. I raise it for a consideration, but think all salient points have been made.

Because that's what it says in the rules, uninvited stuff only gets on your 'link when you are running active. And while some people sure like the "this might also be of interest to you" feature, there is not much a runner can gain from it. Many people also used him, but I wouldn't give a hacker a penalty for not using an unnerving assistant

I don't really like your idea, but for a subtly different reason than the others, it seems.

The game rules basically just describe interactions between people, without any tech being involved. They could be on a Siberian tundra, the Barrens, at the downtown mall or Renraku HQ; they're the baseline game rules and are the same everywhere. They don't measure your performance at skills compared to other people, they measure you according to an absolute standard.

AR benefits/drawbacks and any other tech get added afterwards. They aren't an inherent, inborn part of characters. The game rules and characters can all function just fine in a no-tech environment.

Of course, a Face who doesn't use AR/Farley file will be at a disadvantage, but not a penalty. It's just that all the other faces are getting a bonus.



You score points with me for referring to that

I will also provide my counterpoints and then we can agree to diagree then...



And I think that this is the crux of our disagreement. Lack of AR does not a Penalty create. Chooseing to not use Active Mode and AR should opnly result in you not getting the BONUS, not generate a penalty.



Not sure about anyone else, But I said that AR was not as helpful as you imply. As for the Face and the Schematic. You still have yet to answer how having a drawing helps a Face Talk. I do agree that the AR bonus could be useful, and it would be situational.



Again, I never said it could be misused. I said it is not useful "In the Moment." It is a file like that is constantly updated and referenced, and to be useful, must be perused. You will not just get a flash of insight on accessing the file, you must interact with it.



But, IT IS only in active mode. In Passive Mode, you can shunt it off or ignore it, and in Hidden Mode, it is nonexistant. So Active Mode is the only place that it truyly matters, and it is often more of a distraction than it is a help. Ther fact of Viral Advertising and rampant spam makes Active Mode less than immediately useful most of the time. Does it have its benefits? Sure, and I did not dispute that, but it is not as useful as you seem to be implying.



Note that I did not say it did not count, I said it was less useful than you implied.



This is the crux of the disagreement, though. Any penalty to non-use of AR is excessive, since it is meant to be a Bonus, and not a penalty. THIS was the main issue I was having with your ideas. Not that it could grant a bonus (which it is intended for), but that it could somehow give a penalty for NOT using it.

*Shrug* Let's agree to disagree here. I did enjoy the discourse though. Thanks.

noting only to say I read your rebuttal. Thank you as well.

Ask Empathy Software. That's basically exactly what it does.

Sort of. It is a realtime assistant to interactions only if you have the gear to run it on (Easily obtained, if a little expensive), and only for Social Tests. Most applications of the Sensor Software run best with an Agent processing the feeds and using teamwork to give bonuses. Not many people run them this way in my experience here on the forums, though.

I think as I've read the last couple pages, I've realize that there is no good central ground. I see parts of what Kirk is saying but the core difference (to me anyway) is that his AR is actively seeking and displaying data (as if he had a very smart agent) where my AR is actively filtering out data transmitted to my commlink from agents on other nodes that are reading my commlink (as described under how an active commlink works) or from other nodes wide broadcasting data (such as AR menus).

His AR is much more useful than mine because he reads the fluff as if the AR is initiated by his commlink for his benefit where I read the fluff as AR initiated by other nodes for the benefit of the owners of those nodes.

Exactly.

At least.

But that was a mod post that asked you politeley to stop the exchange of arguments - and you simply ignored it. Great stuff. If you want to continue your personal "discussion" with TJ, use PMs and don't clutter this thread with your pointless postings any more (this goes for TJ too). And I don't want to read the next post saying "blabla I'm sorry blabla".

4th Edition does not appear to be planned for the heap any time soon. So a few years of stuff is ahead of us, at least. Let's deal with the system as best we can as we make a pretty, pretty universe out of a dystopia.

And not piss off the mods.