+8 and (base) +3. I have literally not played 3e D&D in nearly a year.

If it differs, answer for each of them. Same for first or second shot.

how about a long burst with a 4-step ammo-mix of apds, flechette, exex and tracer?
with damage code, please ...

I have over a dozen gamers that rotate in/out from my table-top game over the course of the year, all of whom have been with us at least 2 years. In that time, I have made several observations about the matrix rules:
1) They are consistent, except for a one rule about hidden nodes between the base book and Unwired. The problem in understanding is that sometimes there are multiple paths to the same goal.
2) The rules are complex. System administrators (in real life) who sit at the table have an easy time with the rules. People who have a good, but incomplete, knowledge of how computer networks, security and hacking work in real life are challenged.
3) The game tends to work best when the GM presents the matrix as per his understanding of the rules.

So how would I make SR5 matrix rules better? I would present a basic, moderate & advanced set of rules with a simple cross matrix of which rules are allowed at each level. The GM then assigns the matrix rating for his/her table and away you go. Of course, the rules would have to build from the previous level so that as a GM/player increases their understanding they can simply step up to the next level of rules at their table. To be honest, having played 7+ Shadowrun games at each of the last 3 Gen Cons (+having 3 other home game Shadowrun GMs) I already find that most GM's do this without realizing. The only thing that is missing is structured rules for multiple tiers of complexity.

BAB for a level 11 rogue is +8. Fort is +3. That's easy, it's a pretty clear pattern (medium bab = 3/4 level, round down, bad save = 1/3 level round down). Recoil stacking is a little more complicated because of what does and doesn't stack, but like you mention you only need to worry about it once, then you're done. You write it down on your sheet and it's over with. Or if you use a spreadsheet/chargen it's even easier since those rules are typically programmed in.


edit: And I got ninjad on the answer. That's what I get for typing more than the minimum.

I'm pretty sure Jason and a few select writers have already started thinking about 5th ed. Nothing formal yet, but starting to see who could work on it, what should be changed, how it can be done and so on.

I have to admit that I'm a little worried about that idea. I'm sure Jason and the freelancers are doing their best, I know they love the game, but from what I've read so far they lack three things:
- Direction: ask 3 freelancers how they see the game and you've got 4 different answers. That's not really bad, especially since Shadowrun is open to a lot of playstyles, but from time to time, especially when writing a new edition, you've got to set the tone you want. And when you've got someone who wants to go back to 80s cyberpunk and someone who wants to get rid of it all, you're bound to have problems and risk ending up with a flavorless game with no identity.
- Vision: The latest books are bland and boring. They're not exactly bad, but they bring nothing new. I was used to getting a lot of adventures idea, to thinking "whoa that's cool", "I should have had that idea!" and things like that when I read a new SR book. With the latest books I've done that A LOT less. And that's not because I expected it. I was expecting good things from Attitude and was greatly disappointed. The Shadowrun universe is becoming more and more "2011 with elves and cyberware" and so far the new metaplots all seem pretty uninteresting (or not very well dealt with).
- Background and rule grasp: I know there are long time players and dedicated fans in the freelancer pool, but there are still quite a few mistakes in either rules or existing background in the latest books, and the new background and rules are rarely very good, which doesn't bode well for a new edition.

I hope it'll get better or I'm afraid I'll have to become one of those bitter and disgruntled fans who say that their edition is the best and that Shadowrun ceased to be good after.

Oddly enough, I'm going in a different direction. My hope is that the Germans write SR5 and someone translates that into English.

Well, core books are by far the best selling RPG books, and generating liquid assets seems to be high on CGL's priority list since last march...on the other hand, producing a usable core book is far more complicated than just expansion products, so maybe they believe that it would go over their heads.
Predicting a company's actions is hard enough under normal circumstances, and we are talking about the company which just de-erratead Arsenal

The Probability of that happening are rather slim, because, over here, SR4 has been around less time and over there . .

I like this idea.. maybe it could also be applied to differentiate routine and important hacking; using the simple system for routine hacking, and the complex system for hacking when it's a major plot point.



What I'd like to see is a more streamlined equipment system. I want some sort of hold on the amount of detail and customization; for example, keeping track of the camera mods you put on the camera you modded into a vehicle - it just goes too many layers deep.

Basically, I want fully-specified characters to fit on only 1-2 pages instead of needing a small booklet per character.

I hope 4th stays around for a long while yet. I've got a lot of time, energy, and shelf space devoted to it. Our group likes it. Do we sometimes change / ignore things we don't like? Sure - but we just do that and move on.

A lot of the 4th edition hate, I think, is all mixed up with emotions and factions vis-a-vis AncientHistory, Frank, and Loren's Great Mistake™. A new edition isn't going to help that. Some fans aren't happy with current metaplot (RWARR trees!). A new edition isn't going to help that, either.

That said, I personally wouldn't mind a rewritten Unwired or a Shadowrun Rules Compendium which gives alternate rules and rules "updates" allowing the system to be tweaked without a complete restart.

I can add another one off the top of my head: Agents can either access multiple nodes or not, depending on which book you read.

But all in all, I think the matrix rules are more lacking at the basic description of "how does it look like and what am I doing there?"
- What does the matrix look like if I "step out" of a node? Is there are "grid" as described in Neuromancer between the nodes?
- Where is my icon while I'm trying to hack a node? In the neighboring node which routes the signal through, in my home node, or already in some kind of lobby for the target node? Can others see me trying to break into the node, or just the target node?
- What does a stealth program actually do, does it prevent others from seeing that I am logged into the node, or does it just give the impression that my icon belongs there?
- Can nodes run programs besides Analyze? How about exploit for example?
- If I'm jumped into a vehicle, what do I see of the matrix, and how does my icon look like in the matrix?
...

In short, what the matrix needs IMO is a consistent technical description of how it is supposed to work, in-universe. Only then should these actions be populated with rules and such.

Could easily do it - D20 Modern has the monster archetypes, D20 Future has the sci-fi stuff, and the fluff is the fluff...

/tangent on



Have you read DMG 2? I dont have it infront of me but they actually praise the MMO mechanical aspects of D&D 4e in it. I've played MMOs since Ultima Online and currently play Rift. I've also played and ran D&D 4e. The way powers work is clearly based off video games (especially things like marking) and MMOs more specifically in how players can get combos off of each other. Skills also work very similarly to Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, where the DCs are based on your level. This is not a BAD thing but it is the way the rules work.



See Everquest Shadow Knight... you can mark an opponent who then takes ability damage when not attacking the shadow knight, it can still attack the mage but it takes necrotic damage IIRC for doing so.

It really boils down to the description of a fair number of powers can be taken directly from several video games.

/tangent off

I think 5e should come out 2013 but... that may be a bit early and I think it depends entirely on how well supplements sell.



I dont think thats true, other than using real world terms for the first time the mechanics are 1e all over again minus the system map, which the map is still implied just not detailed. Its not like actual computer security other than the terms. The problem (much like astral space) is getting the hacker involved without making it involved. I think you do two things, make hacking the best choice for the hacker in combat situations (not as good as the Street Samurai with the shotgun but the hacker should not be pulling a pistol) and secondly no opposed rolls, set threshold and alert stages based on the attempts made. You also have to dump matrix combat because its a solo game and you just cant get around that. Likewise Astral combat needs to go away.

You can't mix ammo types in a clip, as per the rules in Core.


Yet you remember which class gets which powers progression.
If that is possible to remember, remembering which RC mods stack and the RC they provide can be remembered also.


This seems to be the case with me, I more or less grasped matrix rules on the first reading, and never had any serious problems with them. Now, magic...


Uh, absolute majority of those is answered in one way (and book) or another...

Not "or another", "and another"

But they are still answered...

The more I read this, the less sense this makes to me.

Assuming I'm actually a competent programmer and system admin, and therefore your are free to be as technical as you want, could you explain to me how real life experience helps one understand Shadowrun's hacking rules? To me they appear to emulate "Live Free and Die Hard", not reality.

I think one of the root causes of the Matrix rules' suckiness is that first they wanted an abstract rule system, but then they started adding more technical thingies in, and now the result is a sort of hybrid mes which is neither high- nor low-level abstract/technical. As in, it's not clear and simple, but it also doesn't get "realism" right either.

My point was a generalization based upon my experience: The more technical the gamer is in real life, the better grasp they tend to have on the hacking rules.
Not saying there aren't exceptions, nor that this is some hard fast rule, only my observations.

Actually, I would state that overall, the philosophy is right on track. There are a few cases where creative liberties have been taken like encryption, but given 60 years difference in computing power.. who knows?

In my experiences, the more technical the gamer is in real life, the more they realize the Matrix rules are a Lovecraftian Horror that eats at your sanity. Man cannot comprehend the Matrix rules. This must mean I fit into the “people who have good, but incomplete, knowledge …” category, which I agree with.

If you know how the matrix rules work (from 2 years of gaming at least), and especially in a consistent fashion, please help me understand them. I play a TM now, and function on a hacked together system of “good enough” houserules. I want to know how the rules work RAW.

If you can provide with two examples, I think I can get a sense of how the matrix works (If you want to provide a whole guide that would be even better).

1) A hacker hacking a node from the concept of “I want to hack a node today” (note, the node is encrypted, data bombed, and hidden for maximal rule usage), Also there is IC on the node with all relevant programs and the hacker needs to get paydata.txt to win.

2) An example of your choice, which explains a common matrix action that (in your opinion) people are frequently confused about.

Thank You!

I have had that very same observation.

The only advantage a technical person has is that they know what Exploit and Sniffer mean without having to look them up, where as in previous editions more generic terms were used like attack (though sleaze was there to!)

YMMV. As we said, our observations have been different.

Also, Redjack, can you explain how Swap works, exactly? Thanks.

Here's a much more likely explanation: the majority of people who have clear, complete, and up-to-date understandings of how computer systems and hacking work IRL are of above-average intelligence and are good at figuring out poorly-explained things. Thus they are more likely to be able to grasp whatever set of matrix rules your group uses faster.

By Swap, do you mean "ALTER/SWAP ICON (SYSTEM)"Sr4a pg228?

I hope so, the only other swap I can think of is NSFW.

So, if you imagine the matrix as a sculptured, virtual environment, then everything you see is either fluff or a representation of something. ALTER/SWAP ICON action allows you to change details about your persona (the representation of you), your programs, files etc.

In example: I enter a sculptured node. The node itself is that of an medieval inn. A barkeep stands behind the bar taking orders while a maiden walks around cleaning tables. Two men sit talking near at a table near the entrance. The wall behind the bar is lined with wine bottles. In order to fit into the node's sculpture, I might want to appear as a knight of old, using ALTER/SWAP ICON on my persona. My shining armor is fluff, simply a part of my personal. I ALTER/SWAP ICON my attack program to the representation of a sword and on my armor program to appear as my shield. (conversely, both of them could just be part of my persona. Matrix Perception will be required to determine the difference).

Example #2: I enter a node that looks like the receptionist station at an office. I have hacked the node and have administrative rights. There is a sign in book where everyone signs in before being allowed on. Matrix perception tells me that the sign in book is part of the node security. With my admin access, I ALTER/SWAP ICON the book to look like a file folder, move it aside, and use my edit program to whip up a program to catch all logons and record them before passing them on to the actual security program.

These are just two off the top of my head.

And if you're in a sculpted node that's based on a Bunraku Parlor, you're beating programs to death with a purple dildo the size of a troll's forearm.

I mean the echo, Swap, sorry.

One of the few errata'd items:

What I'm getting at is that the errata leaves it extremely unclear - you can look up the debates about it, if you want. I probably should have been more clear about this instead of trying to beg the question. Here are several different ways of reading it:

1) Swap reduces the modifier for sustaining an existing complex form by one, but only for the purposes of the specific action of Threading a new complex form. That is, if you thread up CF A, and then maintain it while threading up CF B, you take only a -1 on the roll to thread up CF B, not a -2. If you then do something that is not threading or using the CFs, you take a -4.

2) Swap reduces the penalty for sustaining a complex form by 1 for all actions.

A) Swap reduces whatever penalty it applies to by 1 per CF, so if 2 CFs are sustained, it reduces the penalty from -2-2 to -1-1.

B) Swap reduces whatever penalty it applies to by 1 total, so if 2 CFs are sustained, it reduces the penalty from -4 to -3.

Part of the problem with the Matrix, complicates it, is that they on one hand want to be technical and accurate, but on the other hand make it fun and adventurous and dangerous and moving at game speeds. Real hacking just isn't that. Its hours and days of trial and error and coding, and not particularly risky compared to a car chase or firefight, and certainly not as entertaining to play at. "For this run, I'll spend the next week at a keyboard, setting up a botnet to DDOS SK, then vandalize their public nodes with naughty pictures of Lofwyr and some sheep." Good times. Long and tedious, even if the end results are amusing, but if thats what hackers did all the time, they'd have NO players at all. So the various writers spice hackers up. A lot. Great, now they're much more suitable to be PCs, but any sense of realism, or even 'making sense' has gone out the window. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Another thing is that all the other roles we've got so many role models to draw upon, picture ourselves as, to really get into character and enjoy the adventure. Samurai replaying The Expendables or Jackie Chan movies. Riggers drawing on The Transporter, Bullit, or The Dukes Of Hazzard (TV yes, movie no, CAS riggers FTW). Faces pulling out stuff they saw on Burn Notice. But hackers get, what, Hackers? Johnny Mnemonic? Or go the realism route and play as Bill Gates. Tailored armored turtleneck sweaters? Woohoo.

I happen to be a computer science student, and I can understand the rules. But I don't think they're good rules. I could go for an extensive list of things I think are wrong, but that would just be a very long rant.

The quote does not list any restrictions like "but only for the purposes of the specific action of Threading a new complex form"

The quote says "a Complex Form" not "all Complex Forms"

This matches the rule as written.

I'd like to see 5th Edition Shadowrun in a few years, sure. There are still major flaws in the system that have been there since 1st edition that I'd like to see fixed. What flaws? I will answer with my opinions:

-Magic is still way overpowered. If you aren't a magic user user you cannot resist spells without some "funkiness" to help you. This is a huge flaw in the magic system.
-Anyone can be a hacker, your Logic attribute score doesn't matter. Anyone with a good commlink and $$$ to buy rating=6 programs can be a hacker. Seems kinda... lame.
-Riggers are non-interactive and rarely, if ever, truly threatened. "I stay so far away that I cannot be attacked... or traced... or ever harmed really. My character is uber but I never face danger." LAME.
-Troll. Max strength and body. Bioware out wazzu. Vindicator Assault Cannon. Does tons and tons of damage, and literally rolls a KFC bucket of dice to resist damage making it nigh invulnerable. Possible in 1st edition, still possible now. Cheeseburger. And fries. With gravy.

I guess I want Shadowrun to become a more balanced game systematically. And yes, these are my opinions, and opinions only. Still a great game for roleplaying and having stupid amounts of fun with!!


I will add this: Do NOT ever make Shadowrun a D20 based game. It is fine D6 based game.

From my experience I can only agree, although it's certainly not because the way the matrix works is so similar to real-life networking.

I think you're automatically parsing it the way you already "know" it works. The argument for 1 is:

You thread a complex form, then you sustain it. You are not "threading it" after it has already been made; you are just sustaining an already-threaded form. If it means 2, it would say "reduces the sustaining modifier for maintaining threaded complex forms by 1." What it DOES say is "reduces the sustaining modifier when threading a complex form." As in, "when threading a complex form" is the situation when the sustaining modifier is reduced.

If it said "reduces the sustaining modifier by 1 when shooting a gun" or "when using Hacking on the Fly" or "when making Perception checks" it would be clear what it meant.

For A vs. B I direct you to the countless threads arguing about that. It isn't clear at all, otherwise people wouldn't have differing opinions about it!

Personally, I think that rigger-players could easily get emotionally invested in their drones, to the point where they care nearly as much about damage to their drones as a sammie does about damage to the sammie. Once you start modding drones, they become really expensive to replace. And there's biofeedback of course.

This is Dumpshock and even for shit that is obvious, people will argue about it.
You asked. I answered. Take it or leave it. Null sheen to me either way, Chummer.

Now I have a burning urge to create a hacker with a day job as a porn star, who themes all his (her?) program icons as sex toys.

*Stands Heroically* My work here is done.

*Walks off into the sunset, wearing chaps with no pants*

Thanks for the info. At least there aren't any rumors about anything imminent.



I'll remember that quip



Where did you get that idea? They want to capture some of the haxxor flavor, but technical and accurate are not words I've heard used to descirbe the system before. They threw those out for fun, and, as this is an RPG, I endorse that.



Oh lordy. Use the search function to findyourself some good cyberpunk fiction (heck some of the SR novels).

Hmmm sounds like you're looking for movies. Lemmi see, I suggest watching

Swordfish
Tron (hey sculpting)
mmmayybe the Matrix
Cowboy Bebop (an anime I endorse. Actually very very Shadowrunish)
Ghost in the Shell Seriously, watch this now. And the TV spin offs.





My issue with the matrix is that you really can get lost in the weeds if you get a couple rules lawyers together. And as you add rules it starts taking longer. My game uses the core rulebook rules only with a little spackle to hold them together, relatively straightforward design in the systems I put together, and GM glares if the players start thinking about getting fancier. I don't know if I'd say that's the best way, but it does result in hacking taking very little game time, so I think that's quite worth it.

While I think the matrix is the area most improved over 3rd ed, it's also the area I'd like to see worked on the most.



Between how common RF blocking stuff and spiders are I've never found this to be a problem. Too often a bunker rigger would find themselves cut off from the action.



Really? Where was the anti magic bioware? I seem to have missed it. One thing I quite like about SR is that, because of the glass cannon nature of players if they get hit with the wrong sort of thing, things sort of balance out without having to be in any way balanced the way other RPGs have to work to be.



I fully concur. There are different ways to sling it. But it creates a different atmosphere and way in which the players interact with the world when you're operating with bell curves instead of flat odds.

Maybe we can use WEGs D6 system for 5^th?

What are you smoking and can I have some?

Puff-puff-pass, seen?

I wouldn't mind seeing a new edition. 4e has some decent core concepts, but it is like a 1st edition in how many ways it screwed up. The thing is I doubt the things I see as issues would be addressed so I don't really care if no new edition comes. I am surprised one wasn't planned for the awakening, but hey I guess they didn't want to enter the 6th world in style.

Can you imagine the character creation for the early 6th World?

"Roll to see if you get VITAS? You do? You're dead. Start again."

1) It really just depends on what you count as "fully specified."

2) Some of that's just the nature of gamers. I've seen characters in many systems, set in many eras, that take page after page of gear with 'em everywhere they go, just like I've seen some that get by with four or five pieces of gear and call it a day. It's a tendency that's only exacerbated in modern day gaming, or post-modern (where gear is smaller, lighter, and/or you can have vehicles to carry even more gear).