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X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Jun 26 2012, 12:52 PM) *
Had it been me (and it wasn't), some of the high-end pathogen-fighting cyber, bio, and geneware probably wouldn't have been excluded, although it might not have been as effective against HMHVV as against a mundane virus. I think Bobby went a little overboard, but then, he likes it dark. Really dark. I think a little bit lighter shade of charcoal would still have been effective without making it an automatic "roll a new PC" disease. But that could just be me.


But even he admitted the way it was printed was not his intent, did he not?

<edit> Also, not to take away from Draco's big balls, but something like 70% of the population has Herpes Simplex 1 (aka orofacial herpes). In his case, all it would have taken was a kiss that involved an open sore near any mucous membrane (mouth or eyes most likely) or an open wound of his own, say he had lacerated something on his face and she did the "kiss it and make it better" routine. I apologize for the overly clinical sounding nature of that. I just hate the stigma surrounding it. It's super easy for a kid to contract from an adult in a totally innocent way.
Yerameyahu
I feel like just having to get the first test is too *easy*, though. If you wanted all diseases to have a 'initial Fort save', it should be a distinct, difficult value. smile.gif

QUOTE
As for fixes I'm pretty sure that current viral infections can be fought with something like a Z-pack
I thought Z-Pak was antibiotics? Nothing related to a virus at all. But HMHVV is a special magic virus, as well! Honestly, just allow gear to help… and raise the Penetration back up.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 26 2012, 01:53 PM) *
I feel like just having to get the first test is too *easy*, though. If you wanted all diseases to have a 'initial Fort save', it should be a distinct, difficult value. smile.gif

I thought Z-Pak was antibiotics? Nothing related to a virus at all. But HMHVV is a special magic virus, as well! Honestly, just allow gear to help… and raise the Penetration back up.


You are correct, sir. A Z-pack is Azithromycin, an antibiotic. There are no cures for viruses, all you can do is treat the symptoms and allow it to run it's course.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 26 2012, 11:53 PM) *
I feel like just having to get the first test is too *easy*, though. If you wanted all diseases to have a 'initial Fort save', it should be a distinct, difficult value. smile.gif
The RAW values require you to have a dice pool of 24 to succeed 50% of the time, even failing by one hit increases the "required" dice pool to 27 and so on. With the "errataed" values it is 18 and 21. Given that most countermeasures either don't work against HMHVV III or are eaten up by the disease's Penetration, this is still a very high number.
Yerameyahu
But, it's a *lot* easier than the actual disease, right? That was my point: it shouldn't be easier to avoid it altogether, especially when the first test is the easiest and you still have your Edge. The errata'd penetration is a measly -3, after all, and a 50% chance of the disease doing *nothing* would be far too large. If we sat down and said, 'what chance seems right for this incredibly scary disease to have *no* effect at all?', surely we'd pick something pretty small.
Wakshaani
Yeah, this certainly seems like something for people to sit around and factor for a while, until a common concept came out of it. Ghouls can have kids (Which, naturally, are Ghouls), so an obscenely infectious bug isn't needed to keep the population up. It should be scary, but not an utter death sentence.
Falconer
No Wakshaani... it just provides a good reason to shoot them on sight!

none of this hippie madness of ghoul rights which has taken over the game more recently.



Also the average is being misused here... the average on 3 dice is 1 success. But it does not happen half the time. 3 dice, each has two possibilities fail or succeed. Produces 4 distinct possibilities 0, 1, 2, or 3 successes. Odds of each are 8/12/6/1 out of 27. So you only have a 8/27 chance of not rolling at least 1. 12*1+6*2+3*1==27... 27/27==1... average roll is 1 success.

In any case, going up to 24 dice... you have a 57.6% chance of rolling at least 8 successes. 40.5% of at least 9. With 23dice.. the odds are 51.9%.. .and with 22 dice 46.0%.
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 26 2012, 04:58 PM) *
But, it's a *lot* easier than the actual disease, right? That was my point: it shouldn't be easier to avoid it altogether, especially when the first test is the easiest and you still have your Edge. The errata'd penetration is a measly -3, after all, and a 50% chance of the disease doing *nothing* would be far too large. If we sat down and said, 'what chance seems right for this incredibly scary disease to have *no* effect at all?', surely we'd pick something pretty small.



See my thoughts here are, you have to make the test every time they do physical damage

and like i said, this is all just theorizing right now, may end up just goin with the errata
Yerameyahu
That's true, you're exposed each time… but so? That's your own fault and it's a big scary magic disease. smile.gif Don't let the zombies bite you.

I just think that surviving it *should* be amazing—especially scot-free!—and I'd want to make sure the special 'totally avoid *all* negative effects' roll was appropriately hard.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 26 2012, 07:59 PM) *
That's true, you're exposed each time… but so? That's your own fault and it's a big scary magic disease. smile.gif Don't let the zombies bite you.

I just think that surviving it *should* be amazing—especially scot-free!—and I'd want to make sure the special 'totally avoid *all* negative effects' roll was appropriately hard.


The main problem is that it either needs to be harder to contract it or easier to resist it. As written it's broken to hell and back.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 27 2012, 04:59 AM) *
I just think that surviving it *should* be amazing—especially scot-free!—and I'd want to make sure the special 'totally avoid *all* negative effects' roll was appropriately hard.
I think a threshold starting at 8 (or 6) on an Attribute test with a maximum net dice pool modifier of 0 (or 3) is at least appropriately hard.

@Falconer: I may be off by a bit on the probability, but please show me how to build a character that gets anywhere near a dice pool of 24 vs HMHVV III, preferably someone who can do more than resist the virus.
Krishach
I feel the need to chime in and remind that the RAW rules for HMHVV II Ghilani Moneriviridae are even worse in RC: Speed 1 hr, Contact, Penetration -6, power 13. And " Diseases spread by contact must touch the target’s skin."

I do like the unofficial errata, but I'd like to point something out. Diseases incubation period seems to assume you have caught the invader and have to fight it off. Example: tuberculosis, which has a test every week, is by inhalation. However, like things like leprosey, it is possible to come into contact with said disease and not have it catch, even without immunization. As has been stated, there would otherwise be global outbreaks, since any sort of contact would require resistance rolls. As is stated in the description, 6 months of frequent contact has a 50% chance of taking root (note this is accurate WITHOUT protective gear). However, by current rules, inhalation would require resistance tests weekly. presumably as soon as it's penetration betters your gear.

Ghouls have peaceable contact with people, and it would be impossible for RAW populace to make those resistance rolls.

There is little information to support this directly in the books, but something similar seems plausible. Not every cell is necessarily contagious, just infected, and there is a difference.
mister__joshua
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 27 2012, 02:59 AM) *
No Wakshaani... it just provides a good reason to shoot them on sight!

none of this hippie madness of ghoul rights which has taken over the game more recently.


I've actually been toying with the idea of making a Ghoul Right's Activist character.

Forced to live away from society he spends all of his shadow-earnings supporting ghoul rights movements, speaking at lobbies etc.
Wears a brown tweed suit and a bowler hat (just an image I had)
Jeremiah Kraye
I might of been mistaken on the term for z-pak, I do know that there are anti-viral medications out there, as you said they don't destroy but rather inhibit the virus itself, and I believe they are taken as a regimen similar to a z-pak, I know during a particular bad cold-sore flare-up I got something similar. Which leaves me to wonder why something hasn't come up as a controlling regimen for this disease?

As for the comment about getting it from one's grandmother, it doesn't take much... grandmother lets you use her chapstick for instance.

Curious if requesting the aid from a spirit might be useful from an in-play perspective in dealing with the magical side of the virus?

Could you imagine, yearly spirit/anti-viral treatments might work for a dual-natured disease.
Yerameyahu
QUOTE
I think a threshold starting at 8 (or 6) on an Attribute test with a maximum net dice pool modifier of 0 (or 3) is at least appropriately hard.
Again, my point isn't that this isn't hard, but that's it's way *easier* than the actual disease. Doesn't seem right.

I'm not sure what some of this discussion is about. It's *supposed* to be very scary and you're supposed to be exposed by Physical damage; everything else is just fiddling with the numbers. If you think even the errata stats are too impossible… fiddle with the numbers some more. smile.gif But this is not leprosy, and presumably the 'peaceful' ghouls are not *biting* the people they contact. By the same token, people wear armor and try to avoid being bitten; so should your characters!
Jeremiah Kraye
I think that if the actual disease was that virulent you wouldn't see ghoul hunters existing at all... on top of that ghouls wouldn't just be a fringe society problem, they would be overpowering society. The original strength of it makes it seem like you're screwed if you get touched, it literally turns them into true blue old-school you get bite you're dead kid zombies.

Also I'm not sure I like the fact that this disease, or many diseases for that matter does not take into account the natural body or the lack there of (highly cyber'd individuals). But I suppose you have house rules for that :3
Yerameyahu
Right, which are the specific reasons why it was dialed down in the errata. If that's not enough, subtract 1 until you think it's right. smile.gif It's just not that hard. It's not like every person everywhere is exposed once a week. Ghouls are hidden, hunted, and in enclaves; and unlike many diseases, AFAIK you're not contagious until *after* you've turned. Large parts of the population have security that would stop ghouls at the gate, and so on.

You can take steps to avoid getting attacked, and to avoid those attacks scoring Physical damage (… or people are weak enough to just be killed and eaten wink.gif ). Given the various facts, just make it work.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (VykosDarkSoul @ Jun 26 2012, 05:20 PM) *
Still gotta go over this with my Co-GM, but I am thinking about running it something like this (subject to change nyahnyah.gif )

Speed: 1 Day (10)
Vector: Injection
Penetration: -3
Power: 6
In order to infect, physical damage must be caused by a natural weapon of the ghoul, or by injections of the bodily fluids (eww). Upon initial contact a test must be made to resist, if this is succesfull, then it did not stick.

(have to look into the cyber/bio/gene ware to see if we are going to allow any of it to work, but if it does, it will probably be at a reduced value)


You do realize, that penetration is essentially what causes those things to work at a reduced value, right?

--

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 26 2012, 06:58 PM) *
But, it's a *lot* easier than the actual disease, right? That was my point: it shouldn't be easier to avoid it altogether, especially when the first test is the easiest and you still have your Edge. The errata'd penetration is a measly -3, after all, and a 50% chance of the disease doing *nothing* would be far too large. If we sat down and said, 'what chance seems right for this incredibly scary disease to have *no* effect at all?', surely we'd pick something pretty small.


I think the power can be reduced to 4 or the criteria for becoming a ghoul increased and it would still cause problems for runners while still being incredibly lethal to Joe Average.

Joe Average human is 3 body and 4 edge and won't likely have any benefits beyond that.

The first 4 days he would get about 2.66 hits on average which is not close enough to meet the Power 6. If he's lucky and the first 4 days he reduces the power to zero, then he has 6 days where, assuming all three of his body score gets a hit, it would still take 12 days at best to get rid of the remaining power which means he became a ghoul.

Or, let's assume he uses 3 edge on the first three days and negates the power and wait until the last possible test to use his remaining edge, he would need to get 15 hits off of 7 dice to have a chance of survival.

--

QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 27 2012, 01:46 AM) *
I think a threshold starting at 8 (or 6) on an Attribute test with a maximum net dice pool modifier of 0 (or 3) is at least appropriately hard.

@Falconer: I may be off by a bit on the probability, but please show me how to build a character that gets anywhere near a dice pool of 24 vs HMHVV III, preferably someone who can do more than resist the virus.


Choose one of the following races with Exceptional Attribute (Body) (20BP) and Genetic Optimization (Body) (45,000):
Human (8 dice)
Ork (11 dice)
Dwarf (11 dice)
Elf (8 dice)
Troll (12 dice)

Add the following options:
Nephretic Screen IV (+4 Dice) (40,000)
Pathogenic Defense VI (+6 Dice) (60,000)
Resistance to Pathogens (+2 Dice) (10BP)
Suprathyroid Gland (+1 Dice) (45,000 + Restricted Gear Quality)

So you can, in theory, get 21 dice as a human or elf, 24 dice as an ork or dwarf, or 25 dice as a troll. That's before the bonus dice from a Cure Disease spell, or using edge. You've spent 35BP on positive qualities and 190,000 on the augmentations and gene therapy.

Finally, subtract 3 dice due to the penetration value. 18 dice as a human or elf, 21 dice as an ork or dwarf, or 22 dice as a troll.

I don't think such a character would meet your do more than resist a disease criteria.
Yerameyahu
That's good data: now we know the 'Joe Average' DP and the 'Theoretical Max' DP. Surely we can use that to decide what Power/Penetration fits? I have to go for a bit, but I'll play with it later if no one else does. smile.gif Step one: decide on the % chance for Average and Max to survive (RAW).
Dakka Dakka
@Yerameyahu: Has the reduction in power and penetration and the change to injection vector been actually releases as an erratum? I'm not aware of that.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 27 2012, 09:33 AM) *
That's good data: now we know the 'Joe Average' DP and the 'Theoretical Max' DP. Surely we can use that to decide what Power/Penetration fits? I have to go for a bit, but I'll play with it later if no one else does. smile.gif Step one: decide on the % chance for Average and Max to survive (RAW).


This is where you run into playability over reality issues. Ultimately, the player characters are akin to people like Skipjack, Netcat, Damien Knight. They're not as great but they're probably more special than anything else other than such unique characters.

Ultimately, I think that the rules for it should be GM fiat on whether NPCs contract it and reduce the difficulty of it for PCs. The only real problem with that approach is what happens if you have ghoul players who are trying to get enemies to contract it.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 27 2012, 08:44 AM) *
@Yerameyahu: Has the reduction in power and penetration and the change to injection vector been actually releases as an erratum? I'm not aware of that.

Unofficially, though it has an "I'm cool with that" from Jason after discussing it with him in emails and IMs. Why it's not been signed off on...well, that I couldn't tell you.

The link is in my sig, though, to the "unofficial" errata in question.
Krishach
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 27 2012, 01:50 PM) *
But this is not leprosy, and presumably the 'peaceful' ghouls are not *biting* the people they contact.

I was referring to the RAW rules vector "Contact," which does not require a bite. It is very non-specific. But you did gloss over TB, which is airborne, and yet has a "catching" rate far less than it's rules would suggest. Rather, this was to point out that shaking hands with a ghoul would likely not spread the disease, or it would be everywhere, since it has no cure, treatment, or immunization. "Contact" vector does not take this into account, was my point. Neither does it specify what bodily fluids may carry, as many viral diseases are not constant in every fluid, but are specific only to some.

The GMs not using an Injection vector, as per unofficial errata, should still take note of such things, I think.
Midas
I suspect that most folk who get wounded by a ghoul will also end up *eaten* by said ghoul and its pals, but to prevent a ghoul-pocalypse I too would use the errata rules.

And while there may be no anti-viral *cure* to HMHVV, I don't see why a 2070's tech anti-viral cocktail whouldn't add dice to the disease resistance test. After all, 2012 tech anti-viral cocktails are being used to successfully prevent HIV infections turning into full-blown AIDS ...
Yerameyahu
QUOTE
I was referring to the RAW rules vector "Contact," which does not require a bite.
Oh, sorry. smile.gif I've already moved far beyond the RAW there, because literally everyone already agreed that it was wrong… years ago. smile.gif Before there was the 'unofficial errata', we just had house rules that said essentially the same thing. So the SR4-TB rules are wrong (shock); just change them.
QUOTE
I suspect that most folk who get wounded by a ghoul will also end up *eaten* by said ghoul and its pals,
Yeah, that's what I was getting at earlier: not every exposure creates a new ghoul (… just a dead person), which helps to limit things. Hehe. Yes, I agree that the general anti-virals discussed should do something, which is why the disease has Penetration in the first place. I might re-raise that Penetration, though; you just have to run the numbers and decide the outcomes you want.

I also agree that deadly/permanent-effect diseases in general, in RPGs, can often be handled by GM fiat instead. People get mad when their character is killed/ruined by the dice, and it's often better for the game/story if such decisions are made at the GM/player level (as always, when appropriate, when not abused, etc.).
Jeremiah Kraye
Anti-viral emergency treatment for ghoulification paired with a summoned spirit to combat the disease on the astral (since its magical) seems like a good method. I'd give them both the same modifier with both being capable of in general saving the average rich joe (a rich pedestrian could afford both).

Make it cost prohibitive, or give the anti-viral cocktail to runners prior to a ghoul hunt... wouldn't be the first time that runners got something useful from johnson for an issue.
Stahlseele
One could argue, that FAB could be a cure for it . .
As long as you have not been changed, the FAB should eat the magical bacteria out of you, right?
Or simply wander into a Higher Level BGC and stay there for some days maybe?
Yerameyahu
FAB and spirits shouldn't do anything. It's not magical bacteria, nor is it dual natured (AFAIK). It's a virus that (somehow) has a magic-related component or aspect.

I'm not saying those aren't cool ideas if HMHVV were ruled to be different than it is. smile.gif Most of what we're discussing *is* majorly changing the disease, after all. The book specifically says things like 'infection with HMHVV-III almost certainly results in becoming a ghoul', etc., so it's not like the fluff *isn't* in like with the incredibly dangerous crunch.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 28 2012, 02:51 PM) *
One could argue, that FAB could be a cure for it . .
As long as you have not been changed, the FAB should eat the magical bacteria out of you, right?
Or simply wander into a Higher Level BGC and stay there for some days maybe?
While HMHVV may have reemerged due to the higher mana levels the virus itself is not dual-natured or magical AFAIK. I doubt that either FAB or BGC would interact with it,
Yerameyahu
Unfortunately (and AFAIK), even a 'burnout' ghoul is still a ghoul, still contagious, still inhospitable to gene treatments, etc.
Jeremiah Kraye
See I don't understand... The end result of a ghoul from this disease, is dual natured is it not?

So why wouldn't the cause of it equally fall into that same category.

Then again spirits are somewhat "hard" to come by per RAW supposedly, but every company has them. I'm just looking at options for a player so when my players accidentally do something stupid, like not run from or gun down the ghouls, they don't turn into one and bitch at me the GM in the future.
Stahlseele
From the other side:
If the thing that makes one dual natured can be spliced out of it, we may have found the magus factor . .
Gene-Therapy and BAM, you are now awakened!
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Jeremiah Kraye @ Jun 28 2012, 11:04 AM) *
See I don't understand... The end result of a ghoul from this disease, is dual natured is it not?

So why wouldn't the cause of it equally fall into that same category.


Well, here's a mundane explanation. The viruses cause specific alterations to the hosts body (as indicated by reduction of essence). Once all the alterations have been performed, the host, when exposed to an area with background mana (basically anywhere) undergoes the final transformation into a ghoul which also prevents the virus from continuing to alter the body.

It could suggest that if you are in an area with no background mana (space) that you could continued to be altered beyond the -1 essence threshold and if you fail to fight it off quickly enough the end result could be death from essence loss.
Yerameyahu
The short answer is 'because'. There's no particular reason that the disease needs to be dual-natured to cause dual-natured ghouls (and again, a burnout ghoul is still sick, still contagious, etc.). AFAIK, 'awakened' compounds (like the one that causes astral projection?) are not themselves dual-natured. A retrovirus probably isn't even 'alive', and being alive might be an absolute necessity for dual-nature (honestly, I forget)? The descriptions of HMHVV describe it as 'maybe having been dormant during the low-mana period' and "unlike other retroviruses, this apparently triggers multiple Awakened genetic structures resulting in a rapid bodily transformation reminiscent of Goblinization or SURGE." So the magic bits might not even be part of the disease, but hidden parts of the metahumans.

In the end, it's all arbitrary, which is why I said your idea was interesting *if* you just change what HMHVV is (and no reason not to, if it makes the setting better for you). smile.gif

StealthSigma, that sounds good, though there *is* fluff saying 'nothing anyone's tried can stop the transformation'… presumably they did try mana voids?

Stahl, I feel like I've read something about that before? If not, I think you're right: corps in 2070 are certainly experimenting with HMHVV for the purpose of making mages.
Jeremiah Kraye
Seems like an interesting plot hook, also an exploration of a disease not understood.

The way the books read it always leaves me to wonder how much of the fluff are rules, rules are fluff, and how much of it is Deus Ex Grey-death style corp coverup to keep the fear while making money.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 28 2012, 11:09 AM) *
StealthSigma, that sounds good, though there *is* fluff saying 'nothing anyone's tried can stop the transformation'… presumably they did try mana voids?


How many mana voids exist (aside from space)? How many with the money and the expertise are actively performing experiments in them? And space would be a very dangerous place to conduct these experiments. Everything is recycled up there and would require some heavy infrastructure and material supplies to sustain research into it. The benefit of planetside research is that the cost of maintaining separate environments is significantly less since it's no where as closed of a system as a space research station.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 28 2012, 05:09 PM) *
Stahl, I feel like I've read something about that before? If not, I think you're right: corps in 2070 are certainly experimenting with HMHVV for the purpose of making mages.

Dead Air
Yerameyahu
QUOTE
How many with the money and the expertise are actively performing experiments in them?
… All the megas? Seriously, the people performing this research are literally the exact people with the resources and will to do everything you mention. smile.gif
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 28 2012, 09:06 AM) *
From the other side:
If the thing that makes one dual natured can be spliced out of it, we may have found the magus factor . .
Gene-Therapy and BAM, you are now awakened!



The Fiction book "Changeling" deals with something close to that. "Taking the magic out of people" to reverse goblinization.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (VykosDarkSoul @ Jun 28 2012, 06:45 PM) *
The Fiction book "Changeling" deals with something close to that. "Taking the magic out of people" to reverse goblinization.

That can be done in SR4.
Phenotypic Alteration i think.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 28 2012, 12:40 PM) *
… All the megas? Seriously, the people performing this research are literally the exact people with the resources and will to do everything you mention. smile.gif


I believe you misunderstood my question. I know the megas have the money and expertise to do it, but do they have sufficient presence and lab space in mana voids to conduct this research.
Draco18s
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jun 28 2012, 01:08 PM) *
I believe you misunderstood my question. I know the megas have the money and expertise to do it, but do they have sufficient presence and lab space in mana voids to conduct this research.


Isn't there a space station at L3?
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 28 2012, 07:11 PM) *
Isn't there a space station at L3?

No there isn't.
That's a Weather-Balloon seen through Swamp-Gas
Yerameyahu
I dunno, StealthSigma. Do you know? smile.gif I have no reason to think they don't. My point is that it's reasonable to assume 'nothing anyone's tried can stop the transformation' basically means 'nothing possible can'. But, even if they haven't and you're right, your argument gives plenty of reasons why it wouldn't matter, right? It's too hard, too expensive, etc. wink.gif
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 28 2012, 01:11 PM) *
Isn't there a space station at L3?


Is there? It's probably the least stable of the lagrangian points. A space station would need a lot of fuel to keep itself in a stable orbit. Are you sure it's not L4 or L5?
Yerameyahu
There should be one on THE MOOOON! smile.gif Awesome. Oh crap, Moon ghouls! Best campaign ever…
Draco18s
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jun 28 2012, 01:17 PM) *
Is there? It's probably the least stable of the lagrangian points. A space station would need a lot of fuel to keep itself in a stable orbit. Are you sure it's not L4 or L5?


4 and 5 are least stable:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...points2.svg.png

Red is downhill towards, blue is downhill away.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 28 2012, 01:14 PM) *
I dunno, StealthSigma. Do you know? smile.gif I have no reason to think they don't. My point is that it's reasonable to assume 'nothing anyone's tried can stop the transformation' basically means 'nothing possible can'. But, even if they haven't and you're right, your argument gives plenty of reasons why it wouldn't matter, right? It's too hard, too expensive, etc. wink.gif


Exactly, my argument was mostly about a legitimate reasons why the virus isn't dual-natured while the result is. Anyway, it doesn't stop transformation. It just means you would be living in a mana void for the rest of your life to avoid transformation. Being exposed to mana would cause the final transformation into a ghoul to take hold even if you were "cured" of the disease 10 years prior.
Yerameyahu
It does seem reasonable. I just wanted to point out the fluff on that point, for consideration.
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 28 2012, 11:19 AM) *
There should be one on THE MOOOON! smile.gif Awesome. Oh crap, Moon ghouls! Best campaign ever…



why yera...why must you do this to me?????

No my imagination is seeing ghouls, dancing on the moon to thriller....GAH
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