Aztechnology F3a "Insect Exterminator"
Base weapon: Aztechnology F3a
Unberbarrel Weapon: SA Retiarius Net Gun
Mods:
Smartgun System
Electronic Firing System
Safe Target System: Image Recognition Software


The newest invention to hunt the insect spirit plague! A state-of-the-art Flamethrower equipped with a netgun to catch those little bugs and send them to hell! Integrated Smartgunsystem for easy targeting and Safe target System to prevent "panic attack" friendly fire during an operation.

I still don't understand why FA can fire short bursts. It has all the look and feel of yet another rules mistake, especially given things like the wonky Called Shot interaction. There are a whole lot of SA/BF/FA weapons for no reason, if it's true. *shrug*

FA can fire short bursts so you don't waste bullets by having to swap out the magazine when you don't actually have enough bullets left in it to fire a full auto long burst . .

That's different from the ability to fire a short burst whenever you feel like it. Instead, it's just an extension of the general 'not enough bullets' rule.

I'm not asking about the reality of it; it's just the rules/mechanics I'm talking about. I'm not too worked up about it, but I just think it's strange when things have wholly overlapping functions. Might as well just say that BF includes SA, FA includes SA, and then all those guns could just say 'FA'. (Or just BF, just SA, just SS.) Concise. There are very few that are 'FA-only', and those are actually a different special case: they're 'Full Burst only'.

There are psitols out there that do as much, or more, damage than a modern day sniper rifle (at least at close ranges, anyways). Pretty simple really.
My Uncle has a PISTOL that fires a 3" Magnum Shotgun Slug. That would be about .72 caliber and packs WAY more energy, at short ranges, than almost any sniper rifle in existence, if I remember my ballistics tables correctly. Of course, it will not be very usable beyond a couple dozen meters, at best, but at close range, it would be brutal.

I think the problem is with the rules for Called Shots not with those for FA. Just replace "burst fire mode" with "short bursts from BF or FA" and it all makes sense.

RAW on short bursts in FA mode is pretty clear though:


Given the ample RC from Arsenal this might be overpowered but limiting Called shots to fully compensated recoil would also make sense. If a weapon does not rise significantly for 6 shots, why would you not be allowed to carefully place all of them.

There are several automatic weapons that do not have such a setup and not having a fixed burst does not mean you cannot shoot less than 6 bullets in Automatic mode.

I wasn't disputing the RAW. I was saying it's stupid. So, that's even worse, Dakka Dakka. It means there's no point at all.

Again, TJ: I don't know what is this 'real life' you're talking about. I'm talking about SR4. In SR4, damage codes across categories range from strict to very-strict… except for pistols (and high end 'sniper rifles', of course). Even 'troll pistol' versions of the slug shotguns don't do that, which hardly makes sense (in SR4 mechanical terms, mind you).

Heh... Yeah, I get it.
Troll versions of the Slug Shotguns COULD do that, though, with the High Power Modification. I like it, personally.
Since you can apply High Power to any firearm, then it works across the board, no change necessary.
The question is whether you can then implement the various ammo choices for High Power Ammunition. Would be expensive (sort of) and hard to get (it is just time). *shrug*

For a reason I cannot fathom, RAW forbids the other ammo choices in HP weapons. Why does using a more powerful propellant limit the projectile to a jacketed lead ball?

Well, our group added the HP modifier to other ammo types (except Gel, SnS and subsonic) for +60nY and +18 Av.

It doesn't. It is just a balance thing. Want to add the others, just use the HP Ammo as a baseline, and then add the cost (or cost x2) and the availability of the variant ammunition to the base. There you go.

EDIT: Ninjaed again...

Haha, you need to light yourself on fire, TJ! Then the ninjas can't catch you.

Balance *is* important, though. I'd think about whether HP is something the game needs at all, before opening it up wide for everything. I understand that it's not a good choice currently, so I'm not saying 'it's fine, just use it'.

Actually in prior editions you could make 3rd FA attacks... you could fire any number you liked from 3 up to however many rounds you had in the magazine. Your TN for the attack would get too high if you tried to fire too many bullets. Every bullet including the first raised the power by 1 (compensated by RC) and every 3 rounds fired increased the damage by one code... 6rd burst starting at medium would be deadly damage.


I don't see the issue... called shots only work on short bursts... it limits DV values. Yeah I'm firing a full narrow called shot from this machine pistol. Yeah the bullets only do 4P base... but I'm up to a cool 17P before net hits!!!! With the max of narrow bursts +2, and +4 more... that's +6DV... enough to keep things sane while not making automatics even more OP than they already are. (sorry RC is just too easy to come by nowadays post arsenal to even think about saying so long as the recoil is compensated..)


Also there are more FA only guns that I can think of. The MMG and HMG's are FA only weapons. I always thought the white knight was special with BF/FA allowing it to fire shorter bursts. Now I see it's for all practical purposes no different than all the other MG's since FA allows 3rd bursts. (really the only thing the game is missing is a high-velocity MG... since belted ammo feed plus HV makes a ton of sense, and the only way to do it now is to use one of those 'swiss-army' guns that switch between AR/SMG/SR/MG configurations). So the autocannons with their full-burst only requirement aren't the only FA only guns out there.


Again also now the blurb in high velocity actually makes sense to me. A High velocity weapon set to FA can't fire 3rd bursts like normal FA weapons, they fire too fast. They still have a fixed 3rd BF if one is built in (like a gimped M-16 which can't go full auto).


As far as RC in arsenal. The single biggest issue I see is intentionally misreading RC stacking limits, and pulling garbage out of thin air about auto-adjusting weights providing automagically more RC if set to FA, when the rules are fairly clear... it's 2 points of RC max with some weirdness if you only fire a 3rd burst or less on the first shot. Or a lot of people who misread full burst as full auto when they're different things... full auto is a firing mode, and full burst is a 10rd complex action attack (with multiple sub-options in itself).

Ninjas can't catch me if I am on Fire? I will have to remember that one.
HP is not all that bad, in my opnion. I have no isses with leaving it at that. But I can understand the other side of the argument; propellant does not limit my payload. *shrug*

It was my understanding that the change from accessory to modification was a function of the rules in Arsenal; as in, since Arsenal came out all gasvents are now modifications, not accessories.

Are they really? I thought they only did that to rigger adaptation and weapon mounts.

After re-reading the section I guess not. The Internal Smartlink specifically states it, but the Modifications vs. Accessories section states that there can be both unless specifically stated otherwise. It doesn't make sense to me though that the Gas Vent system as a mod cannot be removed - that sounds like a Modification to me, which is probably where I got that idea from.

Falconer, I'm not saying it's overpowered, I'm saying it's silly to have overlapping mechanics like that.

MAybe better: "double all uncompensated recoil when making a Called Shot".

Raecor Hornet
Base weapon: Katar
Mods: Personalized grip, Ceramic/Plasteel componenets lvl3, Underbarrel weapon(Raecor Sting: Melee Hardening, Smartgun system, personalized grip)
Total Cost: 7050

This weapon is fully undetectable by MAD Scanners. Based around the Katar's unique design, the Raecor's design compliments it by putting the barrel forward of the hand. With greater flexibility of gun placement due to reduced ammo capacity, the barrel location is modified to place it along the length of the center of the blade to one side. The gun is hardened to help protect it against the shock when using the knife, and the grip is custom molded to the user's hand improving both control of the gun and blade. The gun has a very small 3 shot clip.

Optional Rule:
A generous GM may allow the user of this weapon to make a special melee attack (as a complex action as normal) where the wielder fires the gun just after impact. This attack would increase the DV of the weapon by +1. This extra damage would be treated like burst damage and thus would not be considered when calculating stun/physical conversion.

This would not help much. Most onehanded weapons can easily take 5 RC and two-handed weapons can go to 9. So unless you go HV you will rarely have uncompensated recoil.

I see what you nearly did there... allow me to tweak it slightly.

Lionheart
Base Weapon: Claymore (900:nuyen:, 5 mod slots)
Mods: Personalized Grip (100:nuyen:, 1 slot), Underbarrel Weapon

Underbarrel Weapon
Weapon: Ruger Super Warhawk (250:nuyen:, 6 mod slots)
Mods: Melee Hardening (300:nuyen:, 1 slot), Hi-Powered Chambering (I don't remember the costs but I know it fits...) maybe some other things or another weapon...

Assuming the optional rule is in place, if I remember everything correctly..... let's assume a 12 STR troll....
Lionheart would deal 10P + 8P/-3AP damage on a hit.

I ditched the Ceramic/Plasteel components because let's face it. You're not going to conceal a Claymore.

no, for the optional rule I outlined, it would deal str/2+4 for the claymore (so 10P), +1 damage (for a total of 11P)
.
But yes, if you wanted to use each weapon individually then those would be the damage codes. Just not on a single attack.

Ah psh. Nevermind. No reason to load a Ruger Super Warhawk then, might as well go with something that has the best cost/clip ratio.

Fat Fingers
Base weapon: Yamaha Sakura Fubuki
Mods: High Powered Chambering, Personalized grip, Underbarrel weight, Custom Look lvl 1
comes with folding stock
Acc: smartlink
Total Cost: 4625


Skinny Fingers
Base weapon: Yamaha Sakura Fubuki
Mods: Barrel extension, Smartgun system, Personalized grip, Improved Rangefinder, Custom look lvl 1
comes with folding stock
Total cost: 7200

These two pistols are modified versions of the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki, each customized so the barrels look like the fingers of a hand. Fat Fingers has beefed up looking barrels due to the high powered chambering, and adds in a few other features to aid in the excessive recoil caused by the ammo it uses, which this weapon handles unusually well (since Short bursts are handled as single shots with the Fubuki. Skinny fingers has longer, thinner barrels giving it almost a skeletal look. The barrel extension improves this weapon's range, and the Improved Range finder allows for quicker targeting at extended ranges.

Spetsnaz Ballistic Knife (or as close as I could get to one with the rules since there is no "Blade launcher" in the game)
Base weapon: Survival Knife
Mod: Underbarrel weapon (Walther Palm Pistol)
Total Cost: 200

Its a ballistic knife...sorta. just shoots actual bullets rather than the blade.

And there I was thinking of installing a Walther Palm Pistol into a bayonet mount... Well, I still have to get past my GM

And use it as a fore-grip at the same time! brilliant!

Yo dawg.

I nearly spit out my York Peppermint Patty when I got to High Powered Chambering. Thanks.


Hah!

Your welcome!



And now for my most expensive addition to date!

Portable Tactical Support Unit
Base Weapon: Ruhrmetall SF20
Mods: Personalized grip, Advanced safety (shocker), Underbarrel weapon
Accessories: topmount Smartgun system, Safetarget system
Underbarrel weapon: Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle
Underbarrel weapon Mods: Smartgun system, Additional Clip, extended clip, Safe target system
Final bit of Awesome: Smart Firing Platform (Improved Sensor Array, Ultrawideband Radar R4, Pilot Upgrade R6, and Rating 4 Targeting Autosoft [Heavy Weapons])
Total Cost: 71,950 !

While the price tag may be high, this weapon can fill an important tactical support role, especially for an undermanned team. The design philosophy of this unit is to place it where it outside of your target facility where it will best cover your approach and exit with suppression fire. With the Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle and built in UWBR, it can also cover you indoors to some extent. And for those situations when you need a human touch, the Smartfiring platform doubles as a tripod allowing exceptional recoil compensation, and the Ruhrmetall HMG also includes a Hip bracing system for when you need to go mobile. And the Advanced Safety (shocker) insures that no unauthorized users will be able to move, molest, or make use of the unit while left unattended.

For additional options, you may want to include ECCM and perhaps an imaging scope[UWBR] to allow manual use of UWBR firing functions and improved performance at range (assuming the user doesn't have cybereyes and UWBR headware). And for the finishing touch, a Flashpack duct taped to the front will add another layer of shock and awe when this opens up on the enemy.

The only nitpick I have is the use of so many UB weapons. A lot of them don't seem like they'd work that way.

I'll scour my records to see if I have anything to add to the conversation.

EDIT:

Lancer

Chainsword

Gatling Laser

Freeze Grenade

Freeze Gecko Grenade

Gunblade

Vibro-Lasblade

There's a few.

I don't think the underbarrel weapon mod works that way Neraph. I always thought that the modification makes a weapon into an underbarrel weapon, essentially an accessory. You add the cost adn mod slots to the weapon that is supposed to be an underbarrel weapon.

The chainsword I'd base on the vibrosword. Just add custom look 2, possibly Personalized Grip and all the other mods to reduce the possibility of being disarmed.

… That's interesting, Dakka Dakka, but I never heard anyone suggest that. Hm. I feel like this strongly implies that's not the case:

A solid point, but there is a reason for that. For one, the ones with underbarrel mods are the most unusual and so most likely to show up in this thread. Second, some of the weapons really can't be modeled any other way. The Ballistic Knife is a perfect example. They are real weapons, but there is no "Internal weapon" mod in the game that such a thing would require, so underbarrel is the closest you can get to it. Third, there are a few of these (particularly the HMG/Gauss rifle) are weapons systems more than just a weapon in and of itself. For a weapon that is left to its own devices, it can't change weapon/ammo/reload on its own. So you build as much into as you can to give it the greatest functionality. Finally, thats all I've posted so far...

I have a few more ideas building, and most of them do not use underbarrel mod.

Don't drop me bro!
Base Weapon: Grapple gun w/ Micro wire
Mods: Smargun system, Gecko Grip
Total Cost: 1150

Basic premise is as follows:

1. Attach grapple to roof of nearby building.
2. Wait quietly in shadows for passing guard.
3. Sneak up behind guard.
4. Press butt and grip of grapple gun to guard's back and activate gecko grip.
5. Using Smarlink, wirelessly command grapple gun to reel in.
6. If guard is being too noisy after they are at the top, you can wirelessly command the gecko grip to release.

With the micro wire used to suspend them, they may just kill themselves on accident if they flail to wildly or try to climb the wire.

For optional fun, you can talk to your GM about replacing the normal grappling hook with a weighted gecko strip like that found on the winch vehicle upgrade. This would allow you to use this from a range. It could also be used for lifting unconscious bodies out of sight after being drugged/tazed/beaten with shoes.
Also useful for creating impromptu deadly wire traps.

MGL 6x6 (6 by 6)
Base Weapon: MGL-6
Mods: Smartgun system, Personalized grip, Additional clip, Extended clip
Acc: Airburst system
Total cost: 5100

This is the grenade launcher for those that don't use grenades (or for pistol specialists). With its additional clip it can load 2 types at once, and the Extended clip brings the capacities of both of those clips right back to 6. Load it with utility rounds like smoke and flashbangs. Its small so you can still carry your normal loadout without taking a whole lot of room. You can draw and fire it quickly when you need some cover (smoke/thermal smoke) or before a breaching action (flashbangs) and still have another hand free to hold your primary weapon. It can also serve as your heavy hitter in a pinch if your a pistol wielder.

Is the MGL-6 not a Heavy Weapon 'just cuz', btw? Though it's clearly 'pistol' enough for the 75% capacity effect: best of both worlds!

That's actually something I considered as a cyberarm insert for a while, sadly the grenade launcher cyberarm is stupidly capacity heavy. Maybe for a leg lot?

I am working on the assumption that its a heavy weapon but being pistol sized i went with the spirit of the rule rather than the rule as written.

Oh. It seemed like you were really emphasizing the 'pistol user' aspect, is all.

Ahh. Thats because im using one of these on my pistol specialist character. I found it to be handy since he doesnt really have high firepower. And with high infiltration, several vision modes, high reaction, and only lightly armored, spreading smoke/thermal smoke on the battle field is very effective when things start to go nuts. And having a weapon that can spread those grenades at SA rates, at longer range than i can throw, and for the most part more accurately...its pretty nice.

This is based off a design from an old thread with the same purpose. Here we go:

Base weapon: Raecor Sting
Base stats: 6(f), +5 AP, SS, 5©, concealability -4, immune to MAD
Accessories: Vashion Island Synergist Business Line Longcoat (concealability -4)
Ammunition: AP flechettes
Mods: Barrel Reduction, Electronic Firing, Fire Selection Change (Small, SA), Silencer (Internal)
Final Stats: 6(f), -- AP, SA, 5©, concealability -9

The ammo is pretty illegal, but otherwise this is kind of a scary weapon. It's MAD-scanner immune and is impossible to see, but still can get off two 6(f) shots in one round with no recoil. It's also extremely hard to hear, giving a total of -7 to tests to hear it used. You can also swap out the barrel reduction for a ghile shroud, but I'm not fond of that as it makes it easier to see in inappropriate environments. Note also that I'm not including a smartlink, as I'm not sure that the hold-out is capable of mounting one without spending a modification slot.

The Riot Controller
Base weapon: Enfield AS-7
Base stats: 7P, -1 AP, SA/BF, Conceal +6, 24 (drum)
Accessories: Smartgun System, Internal
Ammunition: Stick-n-Shock
Mods: Barrel Reduction, Fire Selection Change (Small, FA), Gas Vent 3, Extended Clip (100 drum), Personalized Grip
Final Stats: 6s(e), -half Impact, SA/BF/FA, RC 4, Conceal +9, 100 (drum)

Final Cost: 4,020 nuyen at 12R

For when you absolutely, positively have to spray a room with SnS ammo, accept no substitutes.

The Controller
I do like how the gun itself doesn't come even close to the ammunition cost of reloading that drum..

Good times, good times.

Rigger: Yep, T-bird's reloaded, I'm all set to...wait, HOW MUCH WAS THAT AV STUFF?
Group: ROFOL

And that's why miniguns are used sparingly.

-Tir

Yo dawg, we heard you like extended clips so we extended your extended clip so you can abuse raw while you abuse raw.

This doesn't just bend the rules, it breaks them. The Drum version of Extended Clip is specifically restricted to SMGs and ARs.

As a GM, though, I'd still allow it.

Logically there's no real-life reason most firearms couldn't accept a drum magazine. It's kind of absurd, but entirely possible.

This is a case where I feel the RAW fails, somewhat. While having a pistol with a 100 round drum is pretty damn silly, if someone wants to increase their ammo reserves at the cost of concealability, the rules should allow for it, even if that requires special costs or tradeoffs for weapons other than SMGs and assault rifles. In a similar vein, drum fed shotguns have been around for ages and should likewise be represented in the rules (although admittedly they should hold 20 or so rounds rather than 100). And what about machine guns? Plenty of real world machine guns have drums, yet by RAW this mod isn't allowed?

~Umi

Yeah; I've seen actual (small) drum magazines for ordinary pistols. Here's one example: a WW1 vintage Luger with a 32-round Trommel magazine.

More importantly, the weapon itself doesn't necessarily need to be modified in any way, to accept a drum magazine. Drum or not, even merely an EXTENDED magazine ... it's all an accessory, it's the magazine that changes, not the weapon it's inserted into.


Doesn't even have to be a 100 round drum. Nor even a 50 round drum. Take a gun with a 6 to 12 round capacity. Pop a 20- or 25-round drum on it. Voila, advantage!

...

Really, the system fails on other fronts too. What about a pan magazine? Helical? Rotary magazines (the things most people think of as "drums" on shotguns, are usually Rotary magazines - at least, I think so).

Various-sized magazines - drums, pans, single or double box, casket, rotary, horizontal, helical, all of them - should be possible. Each firearm should specify what sort of magazine it's designed for ... modifying the gun to use something different should be possible, but, there should also be aftermarket options, adapters, and so on. For example, I don't believe any specific modification to an M16 needs to be made, before simply popping in a Beta C-mag (the "twin 50round drums" thing), so long as you bought a Beta meant for use with an M-16.

Would it complicate things? Yes; it most definitely would introduce a new layer of complexity.

But IMO, it would not only be more realistic, it would open the door for more FUN, and even, more RP opportunities (MY gun-bunny may want every doodad possible - whereas YOURS may be a "traditionalist" who mistrusts turning his gun into "a damned christmas-tree").

No, my gun bunny is a "traditionalist" who wants a guns that shoots christmas trees. As ammunition.

~Umi