So you'll sit there quietly and happy when everyone else is playing? Because that is what it means in practice. You sit and watch the other players play the game.

bit late.
Already talked to the player. Went well.
plan goes forward

Certainly. It's the same principle as when the PC party splits up between runs, and the different characters pursue their own goals. The GM rotates between players, giving everyone their own screen time. How else do you run a game where the characters have their individual goals, contact each other, split up again, then join up? A good character has his own goals outside of doing things with the Shadowrun group, and these things do need to be looked into from time to time.

Resolving individual downtime between sessions tend to work out nicely, with communications being easier then ever n'all.
I personally don't like having parts of the group sit by the side during sessions. One of the reasons I tend to avoid hacking if possible, you just end up with one guy entertained and the rest twiddling their thumbs.
I do tend to bring players off to the side from time to time, to build tension with things only they would know or when Im running horror.

That works sometimes, but I've had my players preparing for a run, and then going their separate ways to prepare individually, during a session. Also, of course, some of my players are busy enough (or live in other countries), that running things between sessions is simply not a viable option - so it comes down to learning how to manage this during our normal play time.

Congratulations

Game session has ended. Went really well.
Thanks for all the help.
Mage was arrested, and is going to get cloned, "killed", and put to work researching things.

new mage has not killed anyone (who didn't need killing), and should be fun.

they got through the first major run on a corp (secret subsidary of a megacorp)
They had to investigate the artemis group, who was making unbelievably good smart gun software, and was developng smartsword software. and was secretly backed by aztechnology

They got in by taking the place of some newly hired guards. they got past the defenses (with some help from a group of NPC Runners they were working with, but pretty much all planning and stuff was the players)
Then they found the dark secret of artemis; they were putting still living brains through combat simulations and using their experience, and simulations to make the smart gun software. the corpses of the brains' past owners were made into special blood magic voodoo zombies.
Blood mage got away, vowing revenge
they captured all the personel involved, and got them out.

then temporarily fled the city.

Random NPC can tell you better probably.

A question. Drakes, we were looking over them, and were wondering if they have a weakness other then their metahuman form. you get a lot for 65 bp. regeneration by itself feels like it should cost 65 bp.
Are we missing anything?

65 build points is a lot to pay. That is a lot of points that could go into skills, resources, contacts and any number of other things. Heck, it'd make Awakened characters even more short on points than they currently are.

Umm... Drakes in Runner's Companion don't get regeneration. p75 Runners companion... regeneration is not on the list. They're not shapeshifter/lycanthropes (animals with a human form... they're metas with a draconic form).

You're missing an awful lot! Drakes are little mini-dragons... and can be okay if you have equipment specific to their dragon form, EG: barding armor for your draconic form... (though the automatic negative quality distinctive style doesn't help when you're trying to lay low and avoid attention!) (p103 Distinctive Style. All the advanced character options in this book automatically suffer the effects of Distinctive Style and do not get a BP bonus).


True Drake is in clutch of dragons... p137. They're a mini-dragon which happen to have a metahuman form (while bred drakes are metahumans with a draconic form...)
They can get regeneration but don't necessarily have it. BP cost 125 - 150.
They have the same powers as metahuman Drakes... but for each quality off this list increase the 125Bp cost by 5...
Astral armor 6, hardened armor 6, dragonspeech, magical guard, and regeneration. But they also have 8 essence and 8 edge max and can't take any augmentations that cost essence and must have adept/magician/mystic adept.

I guess we misread. thanks for clarifying

Suggestion Tiberius, as your players read this forum putting spoiler brackets around plot elements would be nice to them.
[ spoiler ] stuff [ /spoiler ] like that without the spaces

I need Clutch of Dragons...

What book is slab in?

Arsenal, in the Drugs section

First off; /gratz to Tiberius for not running for the hills when ...

>>>>[1.5Mp Deleted by Moderators; slag off somewhere else ]<<<<<

Secondly; Hooray! The GM was able to convince the player that "That's a bit much, chummer!" and managed to have a pretty awesome plot-escape (ex machina! (don't mention De*s!))

Thirdly; Had I found this thread earlier in it's lifecycle I would have advocated that after with a talk with the problem player that the bad guys would get incrementally more resistant to magic and the character's wiles if they kept this up (making it harder for every subsequent mage). Extreme conditions would be to penalize the bad behaviour with a lower karma rewards at the end of the session, after a second conversation with the player indicating that the Character is being evil, but if that's what the player wants, be aware the Character will be weaker for it... or turn NPC from absolute Evilness." Forbidden spells are 'learnable' but (for you Harry Potter fans) unforgivable. If your mage-school buddies find out you're using it, they'll not be your buddies any longer. If you use it on your buddies and they find out, they'll probably kill you. If a Corp mage finds that you've used it on their turf, say hello to bounty-hunters. If the player is OK with accepting this particular plot-swerve (which may end poorly when the bounty skyrockets to Dragon-hoard levels or in a TPK), have the other characters pick up on the evil vibe too, and see how the party holds it together.

Now, for immediate remedies: If it's a street-level campaign, the party's contacts would start drying up as the mage gets a reputation for being a mind-burner; if it's a Corp campaign, throw in more astral overwatch. Any campaign can have the scared mundanes spending all their money at the talislegger to build more resistance to the mage's particular sauce, and more drone-backup.

And like I tell everyone: the most dangerous security guard is a mook with a flashlight and a radio. Radio-mook doesn't respond? Send in the SWAT team!

One problem with the Contacts drying up solution, he took Hung Out To Dry, so they have already dried up. And since the Contacts we her college mage buddies, that doesn't work in this situation either.

Did they go out as a group and randomly murder bystanders for amusement? Did nobody notice the string of inexplicable murders committed by people claiming mind control down the street from a mage school? People often don't hang around when they find someone they know has suddenly become a psychotic murderer.

I thin he rather means that he character's only contacts were his mage buddies and he (or she) has taken the 'hung out to dry' negative quality - which means the bridge burning already ahs happened, there's no contact to be lost in-game (except maybe the other character's ones, depending on the team member's relations which each other).

Which is why many GMs are wary of the 'lone wolves with nothing they care for' characters : since they have nothing to lose and no particular motivation ,thye tend toward being unpredictable loose canons and fiarly immune to warning shots - as they can be only aimed straight for the charcter, they're as likely to end up in 'full revenge mode on' than in 'ok i got the message, i won't do that again'

That's fine; I'm sure that the rest of the party has contacts too. People hear that Kooky JuJu slings some bad mojo, then hear *you* work with Kooky JuJu? They slowly stop returning your calls, don't want to talk to you if you track 'em down; make it clear the reason they're wigged out is due to your association with Kooky JuJu, and let the characters and the players resolve the issue in-game. Loose Cannon Lone Wolves are not alone in the universe; their actions have consequences for everyone involved.



(those consequences may just be an orbital bovine, but they are still consequential:)

If ONE player misbehaves, punishing the OTHER players for it is seriously uncool.

Right, but when one person is a psychopathic murderer and you hear that a friend of yours hangs out with them frequently, I doubt you'll be looking for said friend.

The major issue with mind control is, that it needs to be either very rare and complicated or easy to track. Or it will fuck up the whole game world.

Just think of simple crimes and how impossible it is to really convict somebody beyond reasonable doubt, if mind control is an option.
Any irrational crime gets neary impossible to prosecute, unless you have a really good chance to prove mind control.

Both is not the case in Shadowrun.

That means: As soon as you spend any though on that the imersion breaks down.

Rules like that tend to be symbolic in nature.
A bit like laws, the social and physical consequence of commiting crimes is often enough to deter all but the most determined and/or desperate.
Disclaimer: *This is a grave simplification of both rule of law and morality, don't take it at face value*

Or your povide exactly what you describe. Consequences and ease of tracking, which is really not all that hard. It is my experience that many mages continually forget to cleanse their signatures in the heat of the moment, and We do not allow the setting up of a SOP for such things. Either you take actions to do it, or you leave the signature. Simple as that.

Physical mask is another one that totally screws up the world.

Why? It is an in-place (sustained) spell that can be detected trivially, even by mundanes (there is manatech for that now, that is fairly cheap).

It can be. However the average video camera or observer on the street doesn't happen to have that. And since it also allows you to fool biometrics (via "This alters the subject’s voice, scent, and other physical characteristics as well.") and locks don't get to resist magic, it's crazy powerful. In addition the signature is on the caster, not on anything that gets left of the scene. Essentially you can pin a crime on someone fairly trivially and will certainly make it really damn hard for someone to pin it on you.

I think the best way to handle spells like physical mask is to up the object resistance. Make it far harder for mages to deal with technology & drones. Not gimp what is one of the non-problem spells multi-purpose spells of the setting.

Physical mask is great... yeah I want to make the americar look like a toyota soymobile. I need to look like that guard while I'm walking in sight of the the donut shack.


Things like Redundant process manufacturing to increase object resistance should be made more common and put in the main rulebook. Not in a splat book like War!

or you just use wards around secure installations and sustained spells go bye-bye.

I would only let the spell mimic another's biometrics if they happen to actually HAVE those biometrics and have studied them. Otherwise, how are they mimicing them?

Indeed...

Well the 'Mask' spell.. I don't see an issue with.. the living target thinks he's hearing the right voice no matter your basso rumble. You talk normally... living targets only think they're seeing/hearing/smelling something else.


Physical Mask yeah... I think you'd actually have to know the targets voice before being able to imitate it. Other things like biometrics... no.. It's not going to change the guys fingerprints... it's not going to change a lot of other things. It is only an illusion. You're reading far more into that sentence than the sentence actually says. Not once in the spell description does it say it does. You can only reach this outcome by intentionally making an ad absurdum reading of that sentence. (latin for taken to absurdity).

If I physical mask as some blue eyed lady wearing perfume and who sounds like a chipmunk. That's fine provided I know all those details. If I think all orcs smell like skunks and choose to smell like a skunk when I mask as an ork to give them a bad name great. But it's not going to change my fingerprints, it's not going to change my retinal scan, it's not going to defeat most biometrics.

So I completely reject your premise as just a powergamers warped reading of the spell description kzt.

I wouldn't be categorical - you might be able to replicate a target's biometric but it would require to first have the actual biometrics, then to train emulating them until you get them right - which would require some way to check what you're doing and correct the illusion. For mere looks a mirror would be enough. For a retinal print, youll need a retinal scanner to check what you're doing, and probably many hits on the spellcasting ot get down to that level of detail. For digital imprits or similar contact-based systems, the mask spell has, as far as I remember, no touch composent, which means you're screwed. Getting the scanners to train shouldn't be much of problem, getting the time to do the training is probably harder.

An alternative might to have specific spells altering the biometrics, which means fooling the guards, a retinal and a fingerprint scanner would require three spells, maybe four if there's a voice print ID - four spells to keep running. And also probably acces to the prrerson whose biometrics you're stealing to get hte model.

I think that I have to agree here.

Which is fine, as long as you are making new spells to do so. And not a single spell to cover them all.

Well, it is MAGIC.

Yes, that is correct. The spell does not state any preconditions.

The spell also does not state that it mimics biometrics.

It does state that it mimics "other physical characteristics". Are biometrics not physical characteristics?

Only under the most munchkin readings of any open-ended statement like that... it's supposed to create the illusion that you're someone else. Not completely mimic in all ways. Not all biometrics are things which are subject to illusions.


In any case, I stick with my original opinion. The best way to handle spells it to make them even less able to deal with technology. Increase OR's even more... and provide more options in the base book for raising them higher than the defaults.

Assertion Twelve.


If the spell allows you to change your voice, scent, and other physical characteristics then it obviously also includes biometrics. Now, if you're wanting to mimic someone, that should be a Disguise check with no penalty for not having a kit since you're supplying a spell instead. If you want to just scramble your biometrics so you aren't identified, then the spell delivers this. Hell, the text even calls it a disguise.

EDIT: I could talk about what kind of person would think otherwise but Ad Hominem attacks tend to detract from your stance.

And once again I disagree... because it entirely depends on taking 'other physical characteristics' to an unreasonable degree. So it's based on taking a loophole and driving a truck through it. This is what i mean, the spell doesn't say it does this, it requires that you make a slippery slope argument. It's an illusion not a manipulation spell.

Things like retinal scans aren't something which a normal person ever sees.... it takes very special equipment even to look inside the eyeball to get a glimpse let alone a laser scanner. The spell is an illusion, not a targetted 'mimic target' spell copying every detail of the target. It's an illusion you craft the details to cosmetically alter your own appearance, not actually change your own physical details such as fingerprints. If someone looks at your fingerprint... yes it looks like the other guys... if you put it down on a touch sensor which reads the fingerprints you leave your own.


You also forget that physical mask isn't people only... it also works on cars... so while it might make a bulldog look like a minibus... it's not going to fool someone who actually can touch the real thing. It's not a shape manipulation spell it's an illusion subject to all the limitations thereof.

It does not specify or makes it explicit that it does this. However the spell does say this, only not in so many words. It requires you to take "other physical charactericstics" at its logical face value. You are taking what the rules allow and calling it a loophole.

If someone looks at your finger, it looks like the other guys. If a machine detects your finger print while you are Physically Masked, the machine reads it as the other person's. The finger print that you leave behind, however, is not your own. You can use this spell to smell like someone else, completely fooling sensors (assuming sufficient spell Force, successes, etc) but if that same sensor was used to track the scent trail you are leaving behind as you move about, it detects the scent trail as you and not the person you are impersonating.

A bulldog that is Mask as a minivan should fool someone who is actually touching the real thing the sense of touch is also fooled. Should you drive the vehicle into a wall however the impression left behind is different from that of a minivan. It is not a shape manipulation spell and is limited to all the limitations thereof.

Yes, the logic behind it does not really work.
The scanner would read the wrong fingerprint, but on the glass of the scanner you would leave the correct one...

I'm not going to build a fingerprint scanner with a camera... I'll build it with a touch sensor. Sorry that's why I don't buy it... specifically so that these kinds of shenanigans don't work.


Totori... actually fooling the sense of touch does not work with illusions. THat requires a manipulation spell which the spell is not. It does not alter your form or others sense of touch.

Again... physical mask does not stop their sense of touch... it's an illusion which you control. It is smelly smoke and mirrors... not an alteration of your form. I call it a loophole because you're turning an illusion into a manipulation.

To borrow a DnD'ism... you're taking major image and turning it into alter-self... which are two entirely different types of magic which work in entirely different ways.


To take it this far you must ignore page 208:
"Physical Illusions: Physical illusion spells create actual images or alter physical properties, such as light or sound."
Illusions... not physical alterations!

Also everyone gets hung up on the second sentence which is directly related to the first...
"The Mask spell requires the caster to touch the subject. The subject assumes a different physical appearance (of the same basic size and shape) chosen by the caster." And the last bit... Physical mask creates AN ILLUSION that affects technological systems as well.

Is there an explicit exception to the sense of touch for full sensory illusions? It fools others sense of touch like it fools others sense of sight or smell or any other senses you choose to name. Again physical mask does stop their sense of touch, it is an illusion that folls all their senses. It is touchy feelly smelly tasty smoke and mirrors. In no way does the physical mask in the case of touch or feel ignore p208 since it explicitly allows for alteration of physical properties.

No there is not. It's an illusion... it does not affect the sense of touch. I take it to mean that if you mask as a fire elemental... you will 'appear' to radiate heat to people around you... until you touch them at which point it's clear you're not burning them with an elemental aura.

I could accept an argument that a mana based spell which alters peoples perceptions directly might... but we're talking about a physical illusion spell which is nothing but smelly smoke and mirrors. It requires a complete disconnect to even make the argument than an illusion of light and sound alterations also changes touch. When there are other spells in a completely different school of magic which do that but not illusions.


This is exactly why mages get a bad name in many game systems... you get some little loophole... and since it's "magic"... they use any contorted wording or logic to justify any outcome. Even that of an illusion defeating touch sensors... or things they can't even properly visualize such as a laser scan of microscopic features they can't even see.

Exactly, there is no exception. It is a full sensory illusion, it affects all your senses, unless you are arguing that your sense of touch is not one of your senses. It alters the pressure that your sense of touch feels. It can a sharp razor feel blunt, it won't stop you from bleeding, but it does feel blunt.

This is not why mages get a bad name in many game systems, people with limited imagination or unable to think on an alternate frame of reference are.

The core rulebook distinguishes between obvious, realistic, single-sense and full sensory illusions.
Physical mask is considered a multi-sense illusion. Whether or not it's full sensory isn't said, but one could argue that the sense of touch is part of the mask, and necessary at it, or you couldn't mask a dwarf as a troll. It follows that you can mimic biometrics as well, if you had a) an example, b) time and c) trial and error possibilities beforehand as training.

That being said: I would only allow it in fringe cases with a force of at least ...HIGH and max successes, as these are impossibly small details.

A player once asked me if she could use trid phantasm to replay a trid movie. I told her that is a very complex illusion needing a lot of successes and she needs to memorize the movie beforehand. Same difference, IMO.

Bannockburn... the spell specifically limits targets to things the same size... so no... you're not going to mask a dwarf as a troll. It's the reason I switched from bulldog and minivan to mini-bus... because they're far closer in size to each other.

But again lost in all this... is that this is created by the caster... not copied from some target of the spell. And a lot of these details are so small and ornery that I have serious trouble going with even a mage copying them exactly.


In any case, we've all made our arguments. I just get accused of being small minded when as normal I simply try and limit the abuses in the readings of the rules. When its others who refuse to acknowledge the problems which arise when the more creative uses are allowed to run rampant and not questioned.